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LINE-BY-LINE Discussion Thread; The Workshop
Topic Started: Sep 23 2008, 04:24 PM (4,939 Views)
messyhead
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I realize this is off topic, but I love your avatar of Mr. Darcy, Melchy. Wowzers.
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melchycat
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I do love reading posts too! It's become my new past time! :D

I'm like that as well. Once I know you and feel comfortable I can talk your ear off. Just ask my sister!

And I agree, it is hard to read a person you can't see. But it's never kept me from going on talking anyway.

And Amanda--anytime you talk about Colin Firth or Mr. Darcy, you are always right on topic. 85htrs
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OJFan
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Oh, you can't go wrong with Colin Firth. He is the PERFECT Mr. Darcy. Very edible! IHBVK

I find it hard when I am writing to explain their body language and facial expressions without repeating myself. I also have problems with trying to "move" them from one place to another or one scene to another without drawing it out too far.

I also find I use their names, and he/she a LOT... I try not to, but it's hard for me to tell the reader that they are thinking without saying something like... Jaime walked over to Oscar to comfort him...or so on....
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Lola
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I'm the same. I'm quite shy until I get to know someone and then I can't stop talking! I don't find it hard to talk to someone I can't see but since I don't know what you look like I make up an image in my mind which could be completely wrong or perhaps very close! Be interesting to know!

With the writing, I find I'm always adding who said something so that the reader can follow it. I know it's not always necessary but I find it annoying when I'm reading a novel that just gives alternative dialogue without specifying who said it. It works if there are only two characters taking turns but sometimes I still have to go back and trace the conversation to make sure.

I agree Colin Firth is a perfect topic anytime.
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OJFan
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I used to be quite envious of my sister - she is such an extrovert and can jump into any situation without feeling at all awkward. I love getting to know people on the forum. It's so much fun.

I also find it difficult when I feel the need to provide lots of information leading UP TO a scenario... I don't really think it's needed as much as I think it is - I think most readers are willing to suspend reality and just accept the situation for what it is...

Steve could be up in Skylab and it suddenly has problems, but I don't think we need to know WHY or WHEN he got to Skylab or WHAT led up to the disaster. It makes it easier if you can just deal with what you want to....

Question: Is it easier to write dialog or narrative? Which is more interesting to read?
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Lola
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I find narrative easier to write. It's like painting a picture with words and that's a lot of fun. I find both though equally enjoyable and interesting to read.
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messyhead
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Sep 26 2008, 08:41 PM

I also find it difficult when I feel the need to provide lots of information leading UP TO a scenario... I don't really think it's needed as much as I think it is - I think most readers are willing to suspend reality and just accept the situation for what it is...

Steve could be up in Skylab and it suddenly has problems, but I don't think we need to know WHY or WHEN he got to Skylab or WHAT led up to the disaster. It makes it easier if you can just deal with what you want to....


When you really watch the show for that, often the plot involves what is called a 'McGuffin' (don't know if I'm spelling it right) which is an object, like a piece of technology, that has absolutely nothing to do with the story, but it's really important. They explain its value briefly, and then Jaime is set off to recover it. They did that in the beauty pageant, in The Jailing of, and a couple others I can't think of right now.
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OJFan
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You know, you're 100% correct - I never really thought about it before. I've never heard of "McGuffin" though - -is it some sort of industry slang, or more a writing term. I'm showing my ignorance now I know, but I'm interested. I wonder why I and probably others feel we need to explain ourselves more than the BW writers did ???? :) :)
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messyhead
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Sep 27 2008, 09:53 AM
I wonder why I and probably others feel we need to explain ourselves more than the BW writers did ???? :) :)

Because they're the pros and they know all the shortcuts! And they need all the shortcuts they can get when they've only got 50 minutes to tell stories.

Here's the wikipedia entry for the McGuffin...MacGuffin...whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin
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OJFan
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So how did you hear about this MacGuffin thingy??? I just looked at the references...I've seen 39 stpes, Matlese Falcon, Caslablanca, North by Northwest, Charade and others in the list of films that used the plot device. How true, you don't really know much about them, they are needed for the sotry, and I never really questioned them.... I need to learn more.... So...what else do the writers know that we don't????
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melchycat
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So, that's what that tactic is called. Thanks. I've met many fine writers through the years and I one of them Icyfire is the one who taught me that if you do your dialogue right, you don't need much narrative. That's hard for me, because I like to describe things. But what she told me and it is true, just really hard to me to do is that if you let your characters describe, the need for narrative is minimal.

She even challenged me to write a story, which I have somewhere that was all dialogue. And let me tell you that was tough.

I try not to do the he said she said, Jaime said/ Oscar said thing too much. I try to use other words, her lover, her friend, the young woman, but after awhile you run out of those. And I totally agree, I hate it when I'm reading a book and I can't tell who is saying what. I want it to be plain, but not redundant.

And yeah, Amanda hit the nail on the head. We think we have to explain ourselves because we think that's what they are doing on tv. But they aren't they are bluffing and just making us think they know what they are talking about. I wrote a story once where I merely said that Lee could remember the chicken cicle incident with the leather pumps and the twin ballerinas. That's all I said. I got more comments on what happened on that mission, give us details. I had none, but it set the pace for the story. It's weird to think the pros do that too!

I'm going to try to write a little Oscar/Jaime thing and see what you all think. As soon as I can think of an angle. I'll still do my big story, just having trouble getting to it!
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OJFan
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I think it's the details that make me dread the mission scenes...It's hard enough to come up with a few details describing what they are doing - it's worse when you have to explain the WHOLE scenario. I can't imagine how hard it would be to write a story with only dialog - do the characters say what they see, feel smell, taste? Do you still have your story? I'd love to see it!
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messyhead
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The shows do feature quite a bit of convincing scientific jargon. I bet most of it is hogwash, but it sounds great. Makes me want to re-do my highschool science courses.

I think that there's a real balance between dialogue and narrative, because you can also fall into the trap of explaining through dialogue what you should be showing by other means. Also, so much of real life is not dialogue, and people so often don't say what they mean, so you have to get to those underpinnings somehow.

The old - He did this. She did that. Oscar said this. Jaime said that - problem! Arggh! When I figure that out I'll die happy. I like looking for other means of identifying the person, but it can also seem so silly and so obvious. "The older man looked at Steve with concern." What exactly does his being an older man have to do with the scene? Using the person's name seems more direct, honest, and a lot less coy. "Rudy looked at Steve with concern." But then you end up with Rudy Rudy Rudy! I have yet to figure it out.
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OJFan
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A lot of times I'll write something like "Oscar, I don't know what I'll do." Jaime was torn between whether to do A or B...... I avoid saying "Jaime said", but still, isn't that cheating, as I'm still telling the reader that Jaime is the one speaking. I too find it unwieldy to try to add in her dialog to Oscar what her choices are, as HE knows what they are, it's the reader that doesn't, thus the use of narrative.

I love what you said messyhead about people not always saying what they mean... I find THAT really hard to write without the narrative. At least in the show, Jaime could say "My that's a lovely dress" and then with a roll of her eye or a wrinkle of her nose you could tell she was being sarcastic. We have to WRITE that she is...

When you say by means other than dialog, all I know is narrative. Is there some other technique you are referring too? I wish I had paid more attention in English class, let alone science!!!
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melchycat
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I guess we could be that class the University of Chicago gave a few years ago called MacGyver 101. From what I read they tried everything MacGyver did on the show to see if it really would work that way. Something like 80% of it did. But I do think that most of the shows use pure hogwash and a pretty box and we will swallow it hook line and sinker.

And yeah we have to say that Jaime rolled her eyes to show she didn't mean what she said, because it's too hard any other way.

I'll see if can find that story, I hope I kept it. It was darn hard to write. She also challenged me to write a story in the 2nd person, again, not fun. But I learned alot from it.
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