| Official MGS V Thread [Possible Spoilers & Nudes Of Zuben Inside]; PS3/Xbox 360/PS4/XB1 | |
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| Topic Started: Mar 27 2013, 10:50 PM (69,520 Views) | |
| SolidLiquid | Mar 10 2017, 03:10 AM Post #3901 |
Legendary Mercenary
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I'll go ahead and say it. Venom Snake > Big Boss. After 4 playthroughs, my appreciation for V is vast. Seeing the game truly has to offer. Everything is truly between the lines and in the darkness for the player to put together. Many of Kojima's own personal feelings are present within the title. It's truly a "phantom" MGS title and I grown to love it. We know we are playing an MGS game but something always feels missing, but feels like it should be there. Much like Venom's arm, Miller's arm and leg, everyone's past, etc. The player and the character are constantly suffering a phantom pain. I will point out that if Paz's side quest didn't exist, the game falls apart. The message of her part of the story in V says it all. It speaks directly to the player. Like Venom, we believed the hallucination of her. We accepted the false reality that we saved her from the second bomb within her. We wanted the past back so badly, anything that reminded us of past MGS titles. In the end, she's gone. The series is gone, no matter how badly we don't want to accept it. We can murder Skullface, Huey, kill everything and it won't change a thing. This is so relatable to me. I lost the love of my life and for the longest time I refused to accept that she was gone and that I was the reason why she left me. I couldn't confront that demon. I was just clinging on to my dreams and phantoms of the past with her. What Paz says in her final tape touches my heart in so many ways. Even though things ended badly, I still cherish every moment I had with her. I look back on everything with a light and joyful heart. "So I hope I'm not the only one who looks back on those days with happiness. There's more to remember than hatred and rage." A message straight to the players about this series and moving on from it. He's aware that things were going to end sour with his beloved franchise and the fans would greatly be affected by this outcome. As long as we remember the series and all it's wonderful memories, it will always be with us. Of course this message can be related to many things depending on who you're asking. I got sidetracked. Venom is just so compelling to me now. When you play through the game as much as I have, you don't notice that Venom doesn't speak much. It begins to make more sense and it feels natural. After learning how to properly make the game flow and make the story progress faster, the pacing is so much better. You NEVER have to play the 12 rehashed missions from ch 1 to progress the story in ch. 2. Just keep playing side ops and expand MB. To quickly get all 28 platforms, it really helps to upload your original save to the cloud, then delete the save from your system, start up a new save and you get to start a fresh save with ALL of your resources from your first save. So you can build all 28 platforms before you even get halfway through Ch. 1. I'm just going to stop rambling. All I'm saying is that V got better each time I played it. You understand how the game flows and it cuts the down the pacing in half which is really nice. Back to Venom, he's a pacifist. BB is not. Venom has a caring heart and it shows in his feelings towards Paz. Yes, BB cared for her too but that changed immensely after the fight with Zeke. Just listen to the way BB talks about Paz in the tapes for GZ. He has little to no remorse for her anymore. While Venom remembers her as the sweet innocent girl from the MSF days. He holds himself responsible for her death. Venom is constant stuck in the "middle" of things. Venom also tries to remain loyal to himself, even as the angel and the devil keep competing for his attention. Despite the extreme conditions of his oppression (after all, he is literally “conditioned”), he never quite becomes Big Boss. But he never reverts to this former self either. His tragedy is to stay in-between, lost in the limbo of his double identity. He is both forgotten and worshipped, the medic and the murderer, the puppeteer and the puppet. He is not Walter White nor Heisenberg: he is forever stuck in a specific part of the transformation. I love that about him. V showed the transformation of Big Boss in the most subtle way. He's already turned and when you finally see him in V, it's too late. I think V was to insult those who constantly put BB on this fucking pedestal. Lets be honest, if we truly wanted to hate Big Boss and see him as the villain, then this way was perfect. Had we actually gotten to play as him and "kill child soldiers, commit all these evils" as the trailers mislead us to believe that way then people still would still have BB on that same pedestal. They'd never see him as a bad man because fans would've gotten what they wanted and Kojima has never been about that. With the exception of 4 and the fanservice orgy that it was, he still managed to insult the fanbase in 4 and show how much he didn't want to make 4. V truly showed Big Boss for what he became. A cowardly, egotistical, warmongering psycho. He's completely lost his way. He sold the world for the legacy of his name. Despite how betrayed Venom was, he remained loyal. Saw everything to the end. He parallels The Boss way more than BB could ever dream of. Anyway, this rant went completely left field and I apologize. All in all, Solid > Venom >>>> Big Boss. |
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| Zuben | Mar 10 2017, 08:34 PM Post #3902 |
Virgin
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Not quite the picture I got of Big Boss. Felt like he intended what he always had, a place for soldiers in the world (though how he was going about it was left hazy). He was torn about what they did to Venom, and let's remember it wasn't his plan in the first place, it was all Zero's doing. And Paz? No matter how much she hurt BB in Peace Walker, he did save her from Camp Omega and even tried to dig the bomb out of her rather than just throw her out of the helicopter. At best I'd fault BB for deciding to go along with Zero's plan. Admittedly I didn't understand what he meant with the name he wrote on the cassette, "Man who sold the world". Doubt it was there just to reference a David Bowie song. It's been a long time since I saw that scene, but I can't remember BB elaborating much other than stuff about Venom. Agree with what you say about Venom in any case. I played through the game only once, so I'm still peeved he spoke so little, but perhaps with the faster pacing of additional playthroughs it was more tolerable. I love MGSV and I think I would place it above MGS1 and 3. My "phantom pain" is the same as with many others, the apparent cut content we never got, Chapter 3/Mission 51. Even if it was Kojima's own decision and not due to running out of development time, it was terrible to end Liquid's storyline to him stealing Sahelanthropus with Mantis and the other kids and leave it at that. I also think 'The Truth' should've been experienced from "Ishmael's" perspective rather than make it 1:1 repeat of the prologue. And we never got the motorcycle!!! T_T |
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| SolidLiquid | Mar 11 2017, 08:29 PM Post #3903 |
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Legendary Mercenary
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This is where I have to disagree. In the tapes of GZ, Big Boss doesn't even hesitate to say "Silence her before we're compromised?" The reason why he rescues her and tries to get the bomb out is because she worked for Cipher, she holds very valuable information, so they needed her alive. Also, I recently beat Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake and the final dialogue that BB delivers to Solid Snake is not a morally correct one whatsoever. He's become a warmonger. That final tape to Venom is to trick you. Yes, it's Kojima words to the player and also BB to Venom but that's trick. It's to deceive you. In the truth tapes, Big Boss doesn't mention a word about being sad about Venom and using him to carry on as Big Boss, ripping him of his own identity and life. He doesn't bat an eye about the fact that everyone in the hospital will more than likely die just to get you and Venom out of there. He goes with Zero's plan almost willingly. That's why the end of MGS4 with Big Boss is more emotional now more than ever. He's just full of regret and tells Snake, had he been in his position back then that he might not have made the same mistakes he made. The term "sold the world" is pretty straightforward this time around. Big Boss sold the world in order to live and carry on his name and make his nation. He turned his back on Kaz, his past, everyone for his namesake. Agree to disagree of course, but that's the beauty of V. So much is left to interpretation. |
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| Zuben | Mar 13 2017, 12:58 AM Post #3904 |
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Virgin
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But didn't one of the tapes with Big Boss and Ocelot clearly portray BB as distraught over the thought of what they were going to do to Venom? Again, can't remember everything on it, but I remember the tone. I don't see why the truth-cassette would be a trick. What would be the point? Venom didn't find out who he was before that tape, BB could've just had him going blind till at some point he'd die or be disposed off. MG2 is an old game so info on it could be as credible as Mei Ling's accent, but I concur we still can't just ignore it. I haven't played it so I don't know how it goes, but if BB is clearly a warmonger in it, then that's what he became in the end. Still, the in-universe passage of time between Phantom Pain and MG2 is 15 years (+9 in Ground Zeroes's case), so I wouldn't use MG2 to describe how BB was in PP/GZ. We would have to judge him by the material from Peace Walker/GZ/PP. What I've gathered, Big Boss abandoned The Boss's way at the end of Peace Walker. Did he become a warmonger then and there? He had just averted nuclear war, so I don't think he was interested in fighting a war for war's sake. Fighting Cipher was probably the priority at that point. Then GZ happened and he took a 9 year nap. When he woke up, the first stuff he learned of was that supposedly only Ocelot knew where he was, Paz and Chico were dead, Huey and Kaz MIA, Zero had become a vegetable, Skull Face responsible for the destruction of MSF, and Zero's plan for Venom. He could also make the logical assumption Cipher was still looking for him. That they found him came likely a surprise (I forgot how they managed that, btw. Was it thanks to Mantis?). Either way, he agreed to let Venom take his place, so he would build Outer Heaven from the shadows. I don't think that paints Big Boss as a warmonger any more than that it's another attempt to build a place for soldiers, like Big Boss's goal has always been described to be. He may have become a warmonger later on though, in the dark era between PP and MG1/2. His sadness and regret in MGS4 could be acceptance that he failed and became something he didn't intend. The warmonger in MG2 was his failure. He regretted it and accepted Foxdie without protest. I think that absolves him as a character for any atrocities from the dark era, because I like him for what has mostly been shown of him (MGS3, Peace Walker, GZ/PP, MGS4). The stuff that would make him unlikable come from a really old presentationally awkward game and legends. Some legends speak good of him, e.g. Sniper Wolf's adoration of him for taking her out of a shitty life and giving her a purpose and a new perspective. I wish we knew more of the interval between Phantom Pain and MG1/2, because there are still questions. How exactly did Big Boss go about building Outer Heaven? How did Ocelot remember the truth, why did he inform Kaz of it, and again, why was Venom informed? What was the plan for Venom's forces from there on? What was the point to pit Liquid and Solid Snake against each other, so much so that Ocelot supported one and Kaz the other? Why did Big Boss send Gray Fox/Solid Snake to kill Venom in 1995? Why didn't Kaz tell anyone (especially Solid Snake/Foxhound) of the truth, even after Big Boss "died" in 1999? |
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| SolidLiquid | Mar 13 2017, 05:56 AM Post #3905 |
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Legendary Mercenary
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Awkward game? You seriously need to do yourself a favor and play Metal Gear 2. It's way ahead of its time. MGS1 is nearly a carbon copy of MG 2: Solid Snake. It's actually well written, way different from its predecessor. Also, I don't really care to know those details. We know how this series ends, it doesn't provide anymore resolution for me except for inside information. And the tape to Venom is indeed a trick to you and Venom. By making you "proud" to be BB. He's a parasite. To distract you from the fact that you've been punished to life forever without a choice. And having beaten this game 4 times, I can tell you that BB has no remorse for what they're doing to Venom. There's not a certain tone, he goes right along with it. I can assure you of this. The "doublethink" tape is where that conversation takes place. V did a fantastic job of knocking him off that damn pedestal he's always been on. This route to not show him "break bad" but see it after it's too late. I'm not saying TPP shows him as a warmonger, but it's showing his initial steps of that direction, how's he's losing his way. He doesn't bat an eye about the fact that hundreds of innocents will die in that hospital just for his sake. He's going down a path that leads to the coward he reveals himself to be. He avoids death at all costs, "selling the world." BUT as I've said and how just mentioned, the end of MGS4 is so much more impactful because of all of this. The truth tapes revealing Zero's compassion for BB still. It honestly makes the convolutedness of MGS4'a ending 10x better for myself. Big Boss ultimately regretting his past and accepts his demons, it definitely dissolves his past atrocities! |
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| Zuben | Mar 13 2017, 10:47 AM Post #3906 |
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Virgin
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Just listened the tape on Youtube. Okay, it seems I was wrong about Big Boss being unaware of the incoming hospital assault. A lot of innocents died there for what he and Ocelot thought was for the greater good and there was no hesitation from either concerning it. It doesn't make BB pass the moral event horizon, but admittedly doesn't sound good. It proves that at that point BB was no longer the commendable man he had been in MGS3 and Peace Walker. Well, we always knew he'd turn darker at some point before 1995 and it didn't stop us from adoring the character. But was it because we thought there must've been some more to it, something that justified it all? It's possible. But his dream of carving a place for soldiers in the world isn't noble enough to justify such measures as placing a hospital filled with non-combatants on the chopping block. In the end, it seems he lost his way in the sense that was apparent back in the day. But there was a tone in the tape concerning Venom, Big Boss is clearly hesitating. He respected Venom and wasn't comfortable with the plan even as he had decided to go along with it. It wasn't much a choice anyway, as the hypnosis turning Venom into his double had already taken place. The man was fucked up, having memories of missions as Big Boss, so choosing not to have him believe he was Big Boss would've probably left him in a confused state, at least so soon after waking up from a coma. I still don't agree the Truth cassette was a trick, as it was pointless if BB didn't make it out of guilty conscience. I take it Venom smashing the mirror portrayed his anger over the revelation, so there was no pride for being a double. Just loyalty, which is extreme considering what BB had done to him. This was a good discussion. What you've stated and what I've pondered writing these posts, I see Big Boss differently now than before. I still hold him in high regard as a character. His decline to darker ways add to the tragedy of the character. It's actually the case with the whole gang of MGS3, Zero, Para-Medic and Sigint (well, not so sure about Sigint) right with Big Boss. They were definitely the good guys in MGS3, but little by little, with everything they faced, perspective changed, cynicism entered, ways were lost. Big Boss realised it all in the end and decided to let go of fighting. EVA was probably the only one who didn't succumb to darkness. Ocelot was always whatever he needed to be, dark or not. Venom represented what Big Boss had been till the end of Peace Walker and then some, running a military organization without compromising his morals and even with the goal of ridding the world of nuclear weapons. The darkest shades of his command was the revenge he and Kaz yearned for the destruction of MSF; once they took it on Skull Face all that was left was the aftermath. Which was unexpectedly messy, what with Eli and the kids stealing Sahelanthropus, Huey turning up to be rotten to the core, the losses they suffered from the parasites, even Quiet was lost. The last thing I did in MGSV was the final scene concerning Venom's Paz hallucination. Even as I felt the game wasn't complete without mission 51, what was there was adequately finished by Venom realising the truth about Paz and the moment with the blue butterfly after it. It was a nice, small, peaceful moment, where the hurdles were finished and my gameplay session was done. One could argue that the cutscenes playing after all the nukes in the world have been disarmed were the true ending, but those were never part of my gameplay session, I only watched them from Youtube later on. I'll have to play MG2. If not for anything else, then to widen my perspective of Solid Snake. I liked him a lot in MGS1, but MGS2 kinda lessened him in my eyes, then MGS3 introduced us to a young Big Boss that was much cooler than MGS2 Solid Snake, then MGS4 came with that Old Snake nonsense and cheese I didn't care for one bit. Solid Snake was great in MGS1, but otherwise I don't really care for him. Edited by Zuben, Mar 13 2017, 11:01 AM.
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| SolidLiquid | Mar 13 2017, 02:17 PM Post #3907 |
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Legendary Mercenary
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Definitely a great discussion, after such a long dull break on this site, it's nice to have a good discussion about V. It's impossible to do so on twitter because the MGS fanbase is still refusing to play V and look at it for what it is rather than what it isn't and it's frustrating. V has a lot to offer for those that are willing to look in between the lines and step into the shadows. V definitely challenges your knowledge of the lore of the series as you play it. There's just a certain charm to V that no other game in the series possesses. It doesn't make it the best but it truly stands out from the rest and I respect the ambition of this title, whether it was fully realized or not, the creative ambition is there. Back to topic, I definitely love Big Boss as a character. I was just happy to see people so upset about BB and things like "Big Boss did nothing wrong" slogans. That was a lot of fans not wanting to accept the truth. I was just happy to see him start losing his sense of morality and start to head down the path that would ultimately lead to his demise. We don't get to truly "see" that man, but the tapes truly show that he's becoming a different man. He's such a fleshed out character and his life is truly tragic. I believe that accepting the truth about Big Boss is truly losing his ways and later becoming a warmonger is important to truly loving his character arc, especially to truly understand why BB is the way he is by the end of MGS4. I don't think you can truly understand and love him as a character if you continue to keep him on that pedestal as I mentioned before. It's why I'm happy we didn't get to play as him in V and just go down the predictable path of villainy that the trailers mislead us to believe. It would've made those fans happy and never allowed them to see him as anything other than the "hero" they've always loved. One thing I would like to point out is despite the fact that Boss became a warmonger and really got lost in that state of mind, he's never "evil". An anti-villain if you will. He thought that what he was doing was right and justified. As MGS has taught us before, the line between good and evil is incredibly blurred. On the topic of Solid Snake, I'm similar with my views. Although, I did enjoy Snake in MGS2, seeing him from a different perspective did make me look at him differently. Still not as cool as MGS1 though. Considering my love/hate relationship with 4, it's hard for me to say. Snake was never cooler than he was in MGS1 and MG2: Solid Snake. I would like to add that Venom truly is comparable to The Boss, more than BB was. Venom smashing the mirror was the defining moment. Despite what BB did to him and all the adversities he's had to take on since becoming BB's phantom, he stays loyal to the mission because he knows it's ultimately necessary. He sees the demon inside of him by accepting the role of Big Boss and stays loyal nonetheless. Similar to The Boss being sold out by her own country, she stays loyal. She's fighting for the future, just like Venom is. He makes a clear statement of that to Kaz after rescuing him. Kaz won't stop going on about revenge and the past, Venom immediately makes his stance known. "This isn't about the past, we're fighting for the future." Venom rides a white horse. Edited by SolidLiquid, Mar 13 2017, 02:27 PM.
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| Zuben | Mar 13 2017, 04:21 PM Post #3908 |
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Virgin
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Now that you pointed it out, yeah, that's totally true. I didn't make the comparison, because frankly I had grown tired of The Boss references already in Peace Walker, but Venom being so akin to her ways is clear and makes him even that much better. It's a major difference between him and Big Boss, as the latter finally forsook The Boss's ways at the end of Peace Walker, casting her bandanna off and all. I think it was good development, because Big Boss was a legend of his own. Despite losing his ways, he still rose a military might from nothing and various kind of soldiers followed and revered him. Back in the day, playing MGS1, I knew nothing of the man and the characters in that game kept mentioning him and his deeds, how much he inspired them. That's why I found it tiresome that he tried to be like The Boss for so long, as did some other major characters, like Zero and non-canon Gene. But for Venom it's great that he's walking the bright road despite being conditioned to be Big Boss. Now I wish Venom had a chance to give Big Boss a piece of his mind rather than just smash a mirror. Being so silent and reserved for most of the game, it would've been cool to see him let it all out in a climactic moment of anger. Edited by Zuben, Mar 13 2017, 05:17 PM.
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| SolidLiquid | Mar 16 2017, 03:06 AM Post #3909 |
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Legendary Mercenary
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This is a really neat analysis, actually. Also, THIS. It's long but VERY much worth it. Perhaps the best analysis there is for the game. http://metagearsolid.org/2016/12/requiem-and-rebirth-metal-gear-solid-v-as-a-new-beginning/ Edited by SolidLiquid, Mar 16 2017, 04:16 AM.
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