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| Lots of MGS4 Ending Questions *SPOILERS* | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 4 2013, 03:45 PM (1,771 Views) | |
| tjboo | Jul 4 2013, 03:45 PM Post #1 |
Sunny
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I have a lot of questions regarding the end of MGS4. I finished the game in 08 and again in 2010 so my memory is a bit hazy. I am planning to do the games again but I want to play them all with the knowledge of the end of MGS4. So, at the end it was revealed that the Patriots had sent Snake and co. to kill Liquid Ocelot? This had me a little confused as throughout the game, certainly on my first playthrough, I felt my mission was more about destroying the Patriots once and for all than killing Liquid Ocelot. Also, if Liquid Ocelot's aim was to destroy the Patriots, why did we have to kill him if that was our aim also? And, did Ocelot actually eventually lose control of himself in MGS4? It is a bit of grey area as to what is Liquid and what is Ocelot. I know Ocelot was effectively hypnotising himself to become Liquid, but why? This may seem a simple question too, but why did Liquid Ocelot carry out the insurrection on SOP? I don't see why the Patriots thought that sending Snake to kill Ocelot would have stopped the Patriots from being destroyed? Surely they would have known that Snake and Otacon wanted to destroy the Patriots? Sorry for the disjointed nature of the post btw. Would be great to clarify and get a discussion going about the ending. |
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| Nyxus | Jul 4 2013, 03:59 PM Post #2 |
Administrator
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- Drebin explained this, The Patriots never expected Snake to wipe them out. They just wanted him to take out Liquid (Liquid being the most direct threat to them). They knew (from the past) that Solid Snake was their best chance. - This is open to debate, but I think Liquid truly took over Ocelot, after all, he was under hypnosis. Only at the very end he returns to being Ocelot. I don't understand your last question, it was Ocelot and EVA's plan to make Ocelot become Liquid, so they could have Solid Snake as a trojan horse destroying the system. This could only be done if he as backed by The Patriots. - The Patriots didn't expect Snake to take them out. It was just his mission to defeat Liquid, destroying The Patriots is not an easy task. It was just a bad string of events for The Patriots. But they knew that Solid Snake would be able to take out Liquid, so they used him. After all, it's just a machine, that can repeat the same pattern over and over again, as Big Boss explained. |
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| tjboo | Jul 4 2013, 04:59 PM Post #3 |
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Sunny
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If Ocelot wanted to destroy the Patriots, why did he have to hypnotise himself? Surely there would have been a better way for him to do it? And am I correct in saying that Ocelot would have wanted to have only destroyed the AI that controlled soldiers, to free them like Big Boss would have wanted but leave the other AI in-tact? At the end of MGS2 we got the impression that Snake and Ocelot's latest mission to destroy the Patriots. Surely the Patriots would have seen them as a threat too. In reality, it doesn't make much sense for Snake to kill Liquid if he was also going to take out the Patriots. Edited by tjboo, Jul 4 2013, 05:00 PM.
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| Nyxus | Jul 4 2013, 05:08 PM Post #4 |
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What else could Ocelot have done to eliminate The Patriots? Drebin explains that the AI cannot be accessed, there is no way. Only from the inside, which is what the plan was all about. The entire plan revolved around manipulating The Patriots in such as way that they would assist Snake rather than work against him. Ocelot wanted to free Big Boss and end The Patriots regime. He knew that The Patriots would send Solid Snake after him if he became Liquid. But what Liquid wanted was to create a second Outer Heaven, for which The Patriots needed to go away as well. I think Ocelot go completely possessed by Liquid in the end, which may have been more than they bargained for, but their plan did succeed in the end. Snake had to take out Liquid because he's a very dangerous individual, wether they had the same end goal or not. Snake and Campbell talk about this: "Below the surface, a new Cold War is brewing between Liquid and The Patriots." "And whoever wins, the world has no future." |
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| tjboo | Jul 4 2013, 05:31 PM Post #5 |
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Sunny
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It makes sense, but it is a huge gamble on Ocelot's part, if he was in control of his mind that is, to assume Snake would destroy the Patriots. I think you are right about Liquid completely controlling Ocelot by the end, well the character anyway. In that case, Liquid would have launched the insurrection, not Ocelot, to create a new Outer Heaven. When in the timeline do you reckon Ocelot lost control? Before or after the launch of the insurrection? |
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| Nyxus | Jul 4 2013, 05:34 PM Post #6 |
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I think he lost control as soon as he was hypnotized, which happened before MGS4. I think he was Liquid throughout the entire game, except for the last seconds before his death. And yes, it was a huge gamble, but everything they did in the game was, they didn't have many options at that point. |
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| VicAcid | Jul 5 2013, 01:13 AM Post #7 |
Psycho Mantis
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"Will you do this for me? Will you terminate Liquid?" and the adventure begins |
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| TheOneEyedHound | Jul 20 2013, 11:41 AM Post #8 |
Vulcan Raven
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Wait the way I understood the story was that Ocelot acted as Liquid to bring the patriots out from hiding. Once Solid Snake defected from the patriots his goal was destroying Metal gear and in the process learning about The patriots from Ocelot/Liquid(To keep snake from stoping him) Ocelot keeped his Liquid persona to avoid suspections(That he is not liquid, thus leading the patriots to hide again) Am I wrong? I haven't played MGS in a long time. A quick question why did Liquid Snake want to destroy the patriots? I thought he was just a mercenary... |
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| GiantEnemyCrap | Jul 20 2013, 07:49 PM Post #9 |
Psycho Mantis
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liqid snake wanted to destroy the patriots to surpass Big Boss and do what he couldnt and form outerheaven. thats how i understood it. |
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my tumblr comic. if you want to add me on PSN or XBL PM me bro. | |
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| Nyxus | Aug 29 2013, 10:28 PM Post #10 |
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In a way, Zero and Big Boss were opposites, Zero wanted uniformity and rules, Big Boss chaos and war. This is something Liquid took over from him, which is why The Patriots are his enemies. He wants a new 'wild west', not held back by rules and systems. |
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| jmw | Oct 1 2013, 02:39 AM Post #11 |
New Recruit
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I saw this thread and was inspired to dig into the story and outline a few things. It was fun. Here's a pretty stripped down version of events and motivations which lead to the ending of MGS4 as I see them. I've included some basic info here for the sake of being very clear. Who are the Patriots? - Zero and an AI controlled computer system. In MGS 4, the Patriots are solely a computer system. Originally, The Patriots were a team of humans consisting of Big Boss, Dr. Clarke(Para-Medic), Sigint, and Ocelot led by Zero. Eva joined later after running into Big Boss in Hanoi (the capital city of Vietnam). The eventual computer controlled Patriots consisted of four AIs; each known by initials: GW, TR, TJ, and AL. These four AIs are held together by one core called JD. *In MGS4, Snake is thrust into the middle of a confrontation between Liquid and the Patriots. Campbell sees Liquid as a bigger threat than the Patriots so he sends Snake off on a mission to assassinate him. The Patriots even secretly aid Snake because they don't predict a scenario where they will end up being destroyed by someone other than Liquid. Motivations: Zero and the Patriots: Everything Zero does is to propagate the Patriots. He uses Big Boss as a heroic figure for people to rally behind; inspiring them to give support to the Patriots. Big Boss doesn't like being used in this manner so he begins to butt heads with Zero. Zero just secretly clones Big Boss so he doesn't need the real one. Big Boss finds out and is like "That's it! I'm through with you, Zero!!" and storms out of the room : ) Big Boss goes and starts MSF and eventually Outer Heaven. The Patriots: Zero wants the whole world to be a unified state. The theme here is uniformity and order. He thought this was what The Boss wanted and he wants to do right by her. His first step in the plan is to take complete control over the United States. The Patriot organization was founded in order to achieve this. (Zero was able to found the Patriots by using the money from the Philosopher's Legacy obtained by Ocelot in MGS 3) Zero succeeds and takes control of the US president and pretty much all big corporations. Over time, The Patriots continue to spread and secretly control all goings-on across the entire globe. Zero's original motivation begins to fade and he just enjoys the power. He eventually gets too old to run everything so he lets his computers take control. His computers basically want the same thing; uniformity; only they have absolutely no humanity in them so they don't care about people or the state of society; only that it's one big well oiled machine. The computers soon discover that they can run the entire world solely through war. They create the global war economy. It's after this war revolution that the AIs really come into their own; abandoning any semblance of carrying on Zero's original will and start to run the world themselves. In the old world (before the AIs took over) at least principles and ideals were at play. Now the computer system simply lives to keep on living. …and the AIs really do wanna keep on living so they enact a plan to kill all the former Patriot members who now want them destroyed. The AIs use Drebin (an agent of the Patriots since childhood) to inject Old Snake with some new Foxdie which will kill Ocelot, Eva, and Big Boss as he comes into contact with them throughout MGS4. The patriots even secretly put into place a support system for Snake (Drebin and Meryl's unit) so this will be successfully carried out. Liquid - Liquid is deeply troubled by his origin and past (truthfully, so is Solid Snake) But unlike Solid Snake, Liquid is extremely insecure and needs to feel like the superior Snake, hence the final fight between Solid and Liquid even though the story has already been resolved. There are a couple other motivations at play which kind of work together. Liquid only understands how to be a soldier and therefore wishes for a world in which a soldier is happiest; one where the whole world is one big battlefield. Secondly, Liquid wants freedom from Patriot control and to wield their power himself so he can shape the world how he sees fit. Essentially, Liquid is carrying the banner of Big Boss. The world should be a battlefield and free from government control. Liquid controls Outer Heaven, which is the mother company over all 5 major PMCs (Which Campbell explains are all large enough to be world powers in themselves). Liquid wants to use this major influence to bring the world into a state of chaotic war. Thing is, even though he has control over all these companies he doesn't have control over the Patriots' system which retains control over the weapons the soldiers use (The Sons of the Patriots system) Liquid's goal throughout MGS4 is not only to free his soldiers from the clutches of the Patriot-run SOP system but also to totally usurp the Patriot's power, free himself from all outside control and run the world himself. Plan A: Sever the connection between the soldier's nan-machines and the SOP system. PLAN A DOESN'T WORK. Liquid and Naomi successfully completed this goal in a test but discovered harmful effects that render the plan a failure. The soldiers went crazy after no longer being maintained by the emotion-suppressing nano-machines. All of their horrible experiences were bottled up and unleashed all in this one moment when the nano-machines were removed. Plan B: Just hi-jack the entire AI that runs the SOP system and take control of it himself. In order to do this he needs to destroy JD (the main core computer running the network) and somehow get through the security wall surrounding the network. Big Boss's genetic code and biometric data serve as a key of sorts to giving the Patriot computers commands, so Liquid steals Big Boss's corpse (Actually Solidus, unbeknown to everyone) and gets the information he needs. He also rebuilds the destroyed GW computer from MGS2 and is able to use it as a hidden 'agent' inside the network, bypassing the security wall. Both having the command key (Big Boss's body) and possessing an AI inside the Patriot network that JD doesn't recognize as a threat allows Liquid to take over SOP. The final step is to destroy the head computer, JD, and replace it with his own GW. JD's destruction via Metal Gear Rex's railgun (the only remaining stealth nuke not regulated by JD) will allow Liquid to essentially oust Zero and his AI system and take the throne himself; achieving the power to create his own ideal world and no longer be a puppet of the patriots. Liquid's plan fails because Snake and company successfully destroy GW (along with all the other AIs) keeping Liquid from seizing the Patriots' power. But why does Liquid seem to be pleased at the end of MGS4 after his plan failed? He was able to settle with what happened instead. I don't believe this was his plan all along. I think Liquid really did want to leave the Patriot AI network intact but take control of it himself; giving himself the power to both create his own haven free from authority but also leaving him the ability to basically rule the world using the Patriot network already in place. Even though the entire network ends up being destroyed by Naomi and Sunny's virus; eliminating Liquid's opportunity to use the Patriot system's influence to shape the world, he realizes that ultimately his goal of creating a chaotic, government-less state will be fulfilled. The war economy will collapse along with all the other Patriot system's keeping everything in check. Liquid won't be directly steering the world along this course or retain the power of the Patriots like he would've, but he's okay with that. Ok, but doesn't that mean that Liquid really did win in the end? He's gonna get what he wants after all! Actually no. Remember Liquid was power hungry and vengeful and actually wanted to take over the Patriots, which he didn't get at all. And as far as his settling for just a plain no-rules global collapse instead, he probably won't even get that. I think the tone in the ending overall conveys hope for the future. The human race will heal and rebuild instead of devolving into a global chaotic state like Liquid would want. Besides, we learn from Naomi that eliminating the Patriots completely was necessary no matter what the cost would be afterward. The Patriot AI's were planning on controlling every human being through an SOP-like system using nano-machines in the near future. Effectively enslaving all humans and eliminating free will! They absolutely had to go. Ocelot, Eva, and Naomi: Eva and Ocelot are big fans of Big Boss and just want to save him and destroy the Patriots. Yeah, they use to be part of the Patriots themselves, but I get the sense that they broke from the Patriots along with Big Boss. Now the Patriots just consist of computers which run the world utilizing the war economy. The computers got out of hand and need to be ended. Naomi's motivation stems out of her desire to atone for her own 'sins' (creating technology which in turn was used for evil) Back in MGS2 when the virus was uploaded to the GW computer it leaked some information and Eva, Ocelot and Naomi learned where Zero was hiding. Great, the hard part's done! This is when they launch their grand scheme: 1. Eva steals Big Boss's body from the Patriots. (She's got both Liquid's and Solidus's bodies which she uses to mend Big Boss's body) 2. Ocelot becomes Liquid through hypnotherapy (yeah, it's a stretch). He does this to distract the patriots. Essentially, Liquid says "Hey Patriots! Look over here!" and Solid Snake sneaks up and stabs them in the back. Now, did Ocelot really need to become Liquid to distract the Patriots? Couldn't there have been some other way that would be slightly more believable? All very good questions… Personally, I'm guessing that Kojima regretted killing off Liquid in MGS1 and this was his way to bring him back; Liquid being the perfect antagonist for Solid. 3. Naomi starts work on a virus which will wipe out all Patriot AIs. She secretly passes this off to Snake and company to upload into GW. ________________________ Snake is just a character who gets caught up in the middle of this huge confrontation. He's used as a pawn to save the world. Even though seeing Big Boss's story in MGS3, Peace Walker and the upcoming MGSV is more interesting to me because he's a character who is actually making decisions which are effecting his world, I kinda feel like a can relate strongly to Solid Snake because as a player we are thrust into this confrontation with no idea what's going just like he is. It's a fitting way to experience the story. There's certainly WAY more that can be talked about when it comes to the events of MGS4, this is just all stuff that's relevant to the story's resolution. |
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| William of Orange | Oct 25 2013, 09:01 PM Post #12 |
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Sunny
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Why does the story of mgr: revengeance sucks ? |
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| Hoss | Oct 25 2013, 09:23 PM Post #13 |
One and Only
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y dos ur englash sukz? |
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| William of Orange | Oct 25 2013, 09:50 PM Post #14 |
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Sunny
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No amercaine, sorrie vor dat |
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| Hoss | Oct 25 2013, 09:59 PM Post #15 |
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One and Only
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y u askin' dumb queshuns that dun relate to MGS4? |
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| Brett | Oct 25 2013, 10:13 PM Post #16 |
Wurmy
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MGR doesn't suck, but it's nothing like the depth MGS titles have. If you expected MGS, then you're a slight moron. I really wanna playthrough MGR now, but I can't be arsed to play on xbox all night. need that pc release Edited by Brett, Oct 25 2013, 10:13 PM.
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click for dem tunes 
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| William of Orange | Oct 25 2013, 10:42 PM Post #17 |
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Sunny
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Scotia: becoz Ittaks plase vor yers efter mgs vor, so yeh, itis relayted toe mgs vor. Stella: i'm not saying that the overall game sucks. The aggressive combat gameplay was great. But the story rubbed me the wrong way. It's like terminator 3, why would you make a direct sequel on a story (or in this case, a saga) that was already finished? I think I would have liked the story if it took place between mgs 2 and 4, like it was originally intended to be. This also applies to castlevania: los: the story was mediocre and the game ripped off gow and shadow of the colossus, but the ending was so weird. And that was purely done, so that they could make a sequel. And mgr's ending was just as weird and had the same fuction as the LOS ending. To eventually make a sequel Edited by William of Orange, Oct 25 2013, 10:43 PM.
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| Hoss | Oct 25 2013, 10:46 PM Post #18 |
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One and Only
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What a half assed attempt to shit on a game... This topic is about MGS4 itself, not Rising, at all. Get the fuck out. |
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| William of Orange | Oct 25 2013, 10:47 PM Post #19 |
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Sunny
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If you're still going to make a remark about my grammar and my vocabulary, so be it. But I wasn't trying to troll, if that's what you guys were thinking. I have to admit, that last comment was really dumb. Edited by William of Orange, Oct 25 2013, 10:53 PM.
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| Hoss | Oct 25 2013, 10:56 PM Post #20 |
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One and Only
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Mine? How so? Topic's about MGS4, son. Learn to read. Everyone else here understands that, hence why no one's mentioned it until you came in prancing like a fairy to say the story sucks with nothing else to add until Stella called you on it. |
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