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Another Tory defects to UKIP
Topic Started: Sep 27 2014, 02:33 PM (547 Views)
papasmurf
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This must have ruined Cameron's day:-


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29394697

27 September 2014 Last updated at 15:12
Tory MP Mark Reckless joins UKIP
Conservative MP Mark Reckless has announced that he is joining UKIP.

The Rochester and Strood MP told the UKIP conference, in Doncaster, that he has resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election in the constituency.

Delegates started to spontaneously chant "UKIP, UKIP" when Mr Reckless announced his decision to defect, which he said was not easy.

The move comes just weeks after Clacton MP Douglas Carswell defected from the Conservatives to join UKIP.
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jeevesnwooster
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Hopefully out of the frying pan and into the fire, spineless jellies
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C-too
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Another right-winger.
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jeevesnwooster
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Mark Reckless  !bgrin! !clp!
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Alberich
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Or perhaps a man more in tune with public opinion than those he leaves behind?
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RJD
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C-too
Sep 27 2014, 03:17 PM
Another right-winger.
Well someone has to balance out the scales since Labour verged too the left with even more Statism. Sorry Big Nanny Statism. I think we can now, using C2's logic, claim that Labour is a Party of Extremists.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 27 2014, 04:14 PM
Well someone has to balance out the scales since Labour verged too the left
RJD, New Labour lurched to the right, which is why they have lost 5 million of their core voters.
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Heinrich
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Ukip's honesty is the only thing that distinguishes it from the Official Tory Party.
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RJD
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Heinrich
Sep 27 2014, 04:29 PM
Ukip's honesty is the only thing that distinguishes it from the Official Tory Party.
Best avoid the honest spectrum or the moral compass as Labour lost theirs years ago.
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Once again although a defection and there are therefore overtones of betrayal, it has been done, like Carswells, with integrity. By immediately resigning their seats and thereby forcing a by-election rather than waiting for the GE just seven or so months away they sacrifice a substantial pay off which they would automatically have received if they had lost their seats at a GE.

It does throw up something of a conundrum! Traditional right wing Tories like Carswell and Reckless, and the hundreds of thousands of ex Tory voters have not moved from their traditional political philospophies; it is the Conservative Party which has moved increasingly toward centrist politics just as Labour did in the late 90s. The difference is that UKIP, once little more than a single issue pressure group, was there to flow in and mop up the disenfranchised Tories. Therefore it could be argued that it is Cameron and his ministers who have betrayed traditionalists like Carswell, Reckless and at least two more very likely candidates before next May.

Changing political allegiances are nothing new of course. In 1981 David Owen, Shirley Williams, William Rogers and Roy Jenkins, all senior members of the Labour Party, finding Labour's weak leadership under Michael Foot, its lurch to the left and its apparent acceptance of the Militant Tendency entirely out of step with their own views, resigned and formed a new party; The Social Democrats, which ultimately joined the Liberal Party.

The left wingers on this forum regularly demonstrate their angst at Labour's positioning just to left of centre, hardly any longer a bastion of socialism and defence of the working man. I have little doubt that had there been a left wing pressure group mirroring UKIP to the left, Labour would currently be undergoing a similar internal furore as the Conservatives, and honest (if misguided in my opinion) men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 27 2014, 04:32 PM
Best avoid the honest spectrum or the moral compass as Labour lost theirs years ago.
The Tories have never had a moral compass.
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jeevesnwooster
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They wouldn't even know what one is
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The Buccaneer
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 12:57 PM
RJD
Sep 27 2014, 04:32 PM
Best avoid the honest spectrum or the moral compass as Labour lost theirs years ago.
The Tories have never had a moral compass.
Yawn...........
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somersetli
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jeevesnwooster
Sep 28 2014, 01:09 PM
They wouldn't even know what one is
Would any politician?
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somersetli
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Heinrich
Sep 27 2014, 04:29 PM
Ukip's honesty is the only thing that distinguishes it from the Official Tory Party.
Best vote for them then, since honesty is a rarity among politicians.
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jeevesnwooster
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somersetli
Sep 28 2014, 01:40 PM
Would any politician?
Indeed, but careful you might be accused of being an ultra-leftist!
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C-too
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RJD
Sep 27 2014, 04:14 PM
C-too
Sep 27 2014, 03:17 PM
Another right-winger.
Well someone has to balance out the scales since Labour verged too the left with even more Statism. Sorry Big Nanny Statism. I think we can now, using C2's logic, claim that Labour is a Party of Extremists.
You should definitely be on the stage. ;D

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C-too
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Sep 28 2014, 12:19 PM
Once again although a defection and there are therefore overtones of betrayal, it has been done, like Carswells, with integrity. By immediately resigning their seats and thereby forcing a by-election rather than waiting for the GE just seven or so months away they sacrifice a substantial pay off which they would automatically have received if they had lost their seats at a GE.

It does throw up something of a conundrum! Traditional right wing Tories like Carswell and Reckless, and the hundreds of thousands of ex Tory voters have not moved from their traditional political philospophies; it is the Conservative Party which has moved increasingly toward centrist politics just as Labour did in the late 90s. The difference is that UKIP, once little more than a single issue pressure group, was there to flow in and mop up the disenfranchised Tories. Therefore it could be argued that it is Cameron and his ministers who have betrayed traditionalists like Carswell, Reckless and at least two more very likely candidates before next May.

Changing political allegiances are nothing new of course. In 1981 David Owen, Shirley Williams, William Rogers and Roy Jenkins, all senior members of the Labour Party, finding Labour's weak leadership under Michael Foot, its lurch to the left and its apparent acceptance of the Militant Tendency entirely out of step with their own views, resigned and formed a new party; The Social Democrats, which ultimately joined the Liberal Party.

The left wingers on this forum regularly demonstrate their angst at Labour's positioning just to left of centre, hardly any longer a bastion of socialism and defence of the working man. I have little doubt that had there been a left wing pressure group mirroring UKIP to the left, Labour would currently be undergoing a similar internal furore as the Conservatives, and honest (if misguided in my opinion) men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
You almost hit a very dangerous nail on the head.
If UKip manage to swing enough people to the right of politics there is likely to be an equal and opposite swing to the left by many voters. A more disunited UK is likely to be the result, possibly resulting in a rise of politically motivated violence in society. That is why flexible centrist policies are best.

I do not believe UKip would be making any inroads at all but for the effect the meltdown is having on the economy. It is a matter of history that extremists come out of the woodwork when economies fail.
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papasmurf
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Sep 28 2014, 12:19 PM
men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
What ilk? He is the only Labour person left in New Labour.
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jeevesnwooster
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 03:49 PM
]What ilk? He is the only Labour person left in New Labour.
True, but wait for it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10325076/Ed-Miliband-Im-bringing-socialism-back-to-Britain.html


By socialism the millipede must mean right-wing social democracy, the kind practised by Germany during the Weimar Republic.

Everyone calling "Socialism" left-wing, remember how you killed the celebrated supposed founder of Social Democracy, Rosa Luxemburg just before Weimar Germany was founded, using future Fascist corps nonetheless.

Social Democracy (aka socialism to right-wing people and people confused by politics) has for the most part of 100 years, been a right-wing doctrine.
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Sep 28 2014, 04:06 PM.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 12:57 PM
RJD
Sep 27 2014, 04:32 PM
Best avoid the honest spectrum or the moral compass as Labour lost theirs years ago.
The Tories have never had a moral compass.
And you think Labour has? Nothing moral about borrowing money to finance current consumption and passing the cost on to the nest generation. Nothing particularly moral about the lefts constant demand to take more out of the system and not give a fig how one puts it in. Moral Compass? When I hear the Usuals claiming the moral high ground I have to weep.
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somersetli
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Miliband won't be bringing socialism back to Britain, because he knows that the people here don't want it.
They have proved that ten times in the last 70 years by turning Labour out of office after some short flirtations with them.
Labour finally realised that they were unelectable in the long term, which is why they divorced themselves completely from socialism when they ditched clause 4 of their own constitution.

They used to be totally opposed to the European Union until it dawned on them that this would be a way of forcing socialism down the UK electorates throat.

No Mr Miliband, you won't be bringing socialism back to this country because it never took root here in the first place.
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jeevesnwooster
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Another person who clearly doesn't want to know, or who wilfully misinterprets what's right in front of him!

The EU isn't socialist in anything other than some party's names, for the most part it is every bit as neoliberal as 1980's America, with added bits of Political Correctness and a mish-mash of confused ideologies thrown in just to blur everything out, that make it as hopeless and expensive as the right-wing papers constantly point out
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 03:49 PM
Major Sinic
Sep 28 2014, 12:19 PM
men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
What ilk? He is the only Labour person left in New Labour.
That of course is hardly true. What about people like Jeremey Corbyn, Austin Mitchell, John Cryer and although somewhat two faced, Diane Abbott. There must also be others who are members of the Socialist Campaign Group. Unfortunately for them, unlike right wing Tories, they do not have a viable alternative political home to go to, so remain within a party with which they no longer have much ideological connection.

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C-too
Sep 28 2014, 03:41 PM
Major Sinic
Sep 28 2014, 12:19 PM
Once again although a defection and there are therefore overtones of betrayal, it has been done, like Carswells, with integrity. By immediately resigning their seats and thereby forcing a by-election rather than waiting for the GE just seven or so months away they sacrifice a substantial pay off which they would automatically have received if they had lost their seats at a GE.

It does throw up something of a conundrum! Traditional right wing Tories like Carswell and Reckless, and the hundreds of thousands of ex Tory voters have not moved from their traditional political philospophies; it is the Conservative Party which has moved increasingly toward centrist politics just as Labour did in the late 90s. The difference is that UKIP, once little more than a single issue pressure group, was there to flow in and mop up the disenfranchised Tories. Therefore it could be argued that it is Cameron and his ministers who have betrayed traditionalists like Carswell, Reckless and at least two more very likely candidates before next May.

Changing political allegiances are nothing new of course. In 1981 David Owen, Shirley Williams, William Rogers and Roy Jenkins, all senior members of the Labour Party, finding Labour's weak leadership under Michael Foot, its lurch to the left and its apparent acceptance of the Militant Tendency entirely out of step with their own views, resigned and formed a new party; The Social Democrats, which ultimately joined the Liberal Party.

The left wingers on this forum regularly demonstrate their angst at Labour's positioning just to left of centre, hardly any longer a bastion of socialism and defence of the working man. I have little doubt that had there been a left wing pressure group mirroring UKIP to the left, Labour would currently be undergoing a similar internal furore as the Conservatives, and honest (if misguided in my opinion) men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
You almost hit a very dangerous nail on the head.
If UKip manage to swing enough people to the right of politics there is likely to be an equal and opposite swing to the left by many voters. A more disunited UK is likely to be the result, possibly resulting in a rise of politically motivated violence in society. That is why flexible centrist policies are best.

I do not believe UKip would be making any inroads at all but for the effect the meltdown is having on the economy. It is a matter of history that extremists come out of the woodwork when economies fail.
I don't disagree with you, other than your definition of extremist. UKIP are firmly right wing but not extreme; you would need to look at the BNP for extremism on the right or perhaps the SWP to find it on the left. Just because a party isn't centrist doesn't make it extreme.

You couldn't get a fag paper between the right of Labour and the left of the Conservatives as each tries to be all things to all men in a desperate attempt to get an overall majority, in our flawed FPtP electoral system. My own view is that we will only have any chance of getting principle and integrity back into mainstream politics with Full PR. I spend a great deal of my time in Switzerland and although the system is complex it is truly regionalised government of the people, by the people and it works very effectively. Broadly speaking the federal government deals only with international issues and national issues which can not practically be handled at Canton (regional) level.
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C-too
Sep 28 2014, 03:41 PM
Major Sinic
Sep 28 2014, 12:19 PM
Once again although a defection and there are therefore overtones of betrayal, it has been done, like Carswells, with integrity. By immediately resigning their seats and thereby forcing a by-election rather than waiting for the GE just seven or so months away they sacrifice a substantial pay off which they would automatically have received if they had lost their seats at a GE.

It does throw up something of a conundrum! Traditional right wing Tories like Carswell and Reckless, and the hundreds of thousands of ex Tory voters have not moved from their traditional political philospophies; it is the Conservative Party which has moved increasingly toward centrist politics just as Labour did in the late 90s. The difference is that UKIP, once little more than a single issue pressure group, was there to flow in and mop up the disenfranchised Tories. Therefore it could be argued that it is Cameron and his ministers who have betrayed traditionalists like Carswell, Reckless and at least two more very likely candidates before next May.

Changing political allegiances are nothing new of course. In 1981 David Owen, Shirley Williams, William Rogers and Roy Jenkins, all senior members of the Labour Party, finding Labour's weak leadership under Michael Foot, its lurch to the left and its apparent acceptance of the Militant Tendency entirely out of step with their own views, resigned and formed a new party; The Social Democrats, which ultimately joined the Liberal Party.

The left wingers on this forum regularly demonstrate their angst at Labour's positioning just to left of centre, hardly any longer a bastion of socialism and defence of the working man. I have little doubt that had there been a left wing pressure group mirroring UKIP to the left, Labour would currently be undergoing a similar internal furore as the Conservatives, and honest (if misguided in my opinion) men like Dennis Skinner and his ilk would be embarrassing Labour with their resignations.
You almost hit a very dangerous nail on the head.
If UKip manage to swing enough people to the right of politics there is likely to be an equal and opposite swing to the left by many voters. A more disunited UK is likely to be the result, possibly resulting in a rise of politically motivated violence in society. That is why flexible centrist policies are best.

I do not believe UKip would be making any inroads at all but for the effect the meltdown is having on the economy. It is a matter of history that extremists come out of the woodwork when economies fail.
sorry duplicate post
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Stan Still
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somersetli
Sep 28 2014, 04:35 PM
Miliband won't be bringing socialism back to Britain, because he knows that the people here don't want it.
They have proved that ten times in the last 70 years by turning Labour out of office after some short flirtations with them.
Labour finally realised that they were unelectable in the long term, which is why they divorced themselves completely from socialism when they ditched clause 4 of their own constitution.

They used to be totally opposed to the European Union until it dawned on them that this would be a way of forcing socialism down the UK electorates throat.

No Mr Miliband, you won't be bringing socialism back to this country because it never took root here in the first place.
I agree
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papasmurf
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somersetli
Sep 28 2014, 04:35 PM


No Mr Miliband, you won't be bringing socialism back to this country because it never took root here in the first place.
Quite, there never has been a socialist government in Britain.
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C-too
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jeevesnwooster
Sep 28 2014, 04:05 PM
papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 03:49 PM
]What ilk? He is the only Labour person left in New Labour.
True, but wait for it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10325076/Ed-Miliband-Im-bringing-socialism-back-to-Britain.html


By socialism the millipede must mean right-wing social democracy, the kind practised by Germany during the Weimar Republic.

Everyone calling "Socialism" left-wing, remember how you killed the celebrated supposed founder of Social Democracy, Rosa Luxemburg just before Weimar Germany was founded, using future Fascist corps nonetheless.

Social Democracy (aka socialism to right-wing people and people confused by politics) has for the most part of 100 years, been a right-wing doctrine.
NL, "For the benefit of the many not the few". That was not Socialism it was capitalism with a social conscience. It has been a fact for some time that the electorate would not vote for a socialist government. We have not had a socialist government since early in 1951.
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Tigger
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As someone who is middle aged and reasonably well off, and a former Essex man to boot, I find the best way to impress young females is to send them pictures of my genitals on the computer the entire family uses.

Please respect my privacy at this rather trying point in my life.
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jeevesnwooster
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As papasmurf said, we have NEVER had a socialist government. We had a Social Democratic government and yes, NL were indeed Capitalism with a socia..oh wait, scrap that last bit.
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Stan Still
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I do not care if a politicians leaves one party for another people will either vote for them of they won't its a simple as that
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Lewis
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jeevesnwooster
Sep 28 2014, 04:05 PM
papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 03:49 PM
]What ilk? He is the only Labour person left in New Labour.
True, but wait for it:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10325076/Ed-Miliband-Im-bringing-socialism-back-to-Britain.html


By socialism the millipede must mean right-wing social democracy, the kind practised by Germany during the Weimar Republic.

Everyone calling "Socialism" left-wing, remember how you killed the celebrated supposed founder of Social Democracy, Rosa Luxemburg just before Weimar Germany was founded, using future Fascist corps nonetheless.

Social Democracy (aka socialism to right-wing people and people confused by politics) has for the most part of 100 years, been a right-wing doctrine.
We all know that there is no such thing as socialism, but nice gesture politics.

The Tories have shafted themselves by drifting further to the right and have played into UKIPs arms. The right whingers may as well forget entirely about the incompetents and just vote UKIP. The Lib Dems have shafted themselves by siding with the right wing enemy.

Given that these three parties have gone too far to the right, I'm voting Labour because they are the only centre party left.
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Stan Still
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I prefer to vote for those who would make things be better for me and mine, that is why I have never voted Labour.
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jeevesnwooster
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Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:06 PM
We all know that there is no such thing as socialism, but nice gesture politics.
As a coherent political force, yes, but that wasn't always the case even in Britain.

The great period of upheaval 1910-1914 preceding the beginning of the first world war saw the largest strikes in this country's history and the largest threats to the entire political system, whicch forced the government to concede national insurance, universal suffrage, the abdication of King George VI and many other things. This coincided with the huge wave of mass strikes and revolutions around the whole world at the time.

When these were crushed in the late 1910's-early 1920's we still had a large yolk of socialism present here (moving towards Totalitarian Leninism and Stalinism steadily, as the counter-revolution succeeded), there was the general strike in 1924, the 20's being a lesser "Red Scare" but still a huge "threat".

In my opinion, the only time the potential for "true" socialism ever existed in its un-Leninised form was from 1850 til 1917.
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Sep 28 2014, 06:14 PM.
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Pro Veritas
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Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:06 PM
We all know that there is no such thing as socialism, but nice gesture politics.

The Tories have shafted themselves by drifting further to the right and have played into UKIPs arms. The right whingers may as well forget entirely about the incompetents and just vote UKIP. The Lib Dems have shafted themselves by siding with the right wing enemy.

Given that these three parties have gone too far to the right, I'm voting Labour because they are the only centre party left.
UKIP policies:
- Take those on NMW out of Income Tax.
- Protect working class jobs by limiting immigration.

Sounds like things any genuine "left" leaning party might seek to achieve.

Shame Labour betrayed the working class and stabbed them in the back.

All The Best
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Lewis
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Pro Veritas
Sep 28 2014, 06:16 PM
Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:06 PM
We all know that there is no such thing as socialism, but nice gesture politics.

The Tories have shafted themselves by drifting further to the right and have played into UKIPs arms. The right whingers may as well forget entirely about the incompetents and just vote UKIP. The Lib Dems have shafted themselves by siding with the right wing enemy.

Given that these three parties have gone too far to the right, I'm voting Labour because they are the only centre party left.
UKIP policies:
- Take those on NMW out of Income Tax.
- Protect working class jobs by limiting immigration.

Sounds like things any genuine "left" leaning party might seek to achieve.

Shame Labour betrayed the working class and stabbed them in the back.

All The Best
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
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Pro Veritas
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Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:24 PM
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
Well, there's a huge logical inconsistency with you post.

You say we've seen this bull**it many times before but then go on to point out that Farage hasn't formed a government.

So how can we have seen the bull**it many times before?

Oh, wait, I know - when Labour promised British Jobs For British Workers perhaps?

Yes, we have seen lots of bull**it many, many times before - but ONLY from those parties that have been elected to form a government; and that doesn't, so far, include UKIP.

UKIP are easily as much a threat to Labour as they are the Tories; and that is a very good thing.

For far too long British politics has been perverted by the notion that there are only two real choices.

Nothing will change significantly until we show Labour and the Tories that this is no longer the case.

All The Best
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Tigger
Sep 28 2014, 05:50 PM
As someone who is middle aged and reasonably well off, and a former Essex man to boot, I find the best way to impress young females is to send them pictures of my genitals on the computer the entire family uses.

Please respect my privacy at this rather trying point in my life.
Unfortunately I don't how to operate the zoom feature on my phone otherwise I would be there with you. As a result my privacy is respected anyway. As my gardener might say 'what a knob!'
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Pro Veritas
Sep 28 2014, 06:44 PM
Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:24 PM
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
Well, there's a huge logical inconsistency with you post.

You say we've seen this bull**it many times before but then go on to point out that Farage hasn't formed a government.

So how can we have seen the bull**it many times before?

Oh, wait, I know - when Labour promised British Jobs For British Workers perhaps?

Yes, we have seen lots of bull**it many, many times before - but ONLY from those parties that have been elected to form a government; and that doesn't, so far, include UKIP.

UKIP are easily as much a threat to Labour as they are the Tories; and that is a very good thing.

For far too long British politics has been perverted by the notion that there are only two real choices.

Nothing will change significantly until we show Labour and the Tories that this is no longer the case.

All The Best
I can not find one word to disagree with here.
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