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Another Tory defects to UKIP
Topic Started: Sep 27 2014, 02:33 PM (548 Views)
papasmurf
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This must have ruined Cameron's day:-


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29394697

27 September 2014 Last updated at 15:12
Tory MP Mark Reckless joins UKIP
Conservative MP Mark Reckless has announced that he is joining UKIP.

The Rochester and Strood MP told the UKIP conference, in Doncaster, that he has resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election in the constituency.

Delegates started to spontaneously chant "UKIP, UKIP" when Mr Reckless announced his decision to defect, which he said was not easy.

The move comes just weeks after Clacton MP Douglas Carswell defected from the Conservatives to join UKIP.
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avagrumble
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Farage is a breath of fresh air, UKIP will get my vote from now on. Don't any of you on here get tired of Labour/Conservative/Labour/Conservative musical chairs, each promising to do this, to do that, and failing miserably most part.
What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in, and if they turn out to be rubbish like the other two, then they will be kicked out in four or five years, so, I say again, what have we got to lose. At last theres a party thats in tune with the British public.
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papasmurf
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avagrumble
Sep 28 2014, 09:14 PM

What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in,
That depends, anyone working class who votes UKIP can't have read their 2010 manifesto.
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somersetli
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 09:18 PM
avagrumble
Sep 28 2014, 09:14 PM

What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in,
That depends, anyone working class who votes UKIP can't have read their 2010 manifesto.
Well nobody bothers with politically manifestos anyway.
They are always forgotten once any particular party is in office. So whether anybody has read the UKIP manifesto or not, is really irrelevant.
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Deleted User
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 09:18 PM
avagrumble
Sep 28 2014, 09:14 PM

What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in,
That depends, anyone working class who votes UKIP can't have read their 2010 manifesto.
But it should be their 2015 manifesto which people should read.
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Curious Cdn
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We had a break-away conservative movement in Canada (the Reform Party) and he net result was vote splitting, guaranteeing that no conservatives could come to power for most of a generation. Somewhere down the road, the break-away UKIP party and the Tories will have to kiss and make up if they ever want to form a government again.
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Lewis
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Pro Veritas
Sep 28 2014, 06:44 PM
Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:24 PM
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
Well, there's a huge logical inconsistency with you post.

You say we've seen this bull**it many times before but then go on to point out that Farage hasn't formed a government.

So how can we have seen the bull**it many times before?

Oh, wait, I know - when Labour promised British Jobs For British Workers perhaps?

Yes, we have seen lots of bull**it many, many times before - but ONLY from those parties that have been elected to form a government; and that doesn't, so far, include UKIP.

UKIP are easily as much a threat to Labour as they are the Tories; and that is a very good thing.

For far too long British politics has been perverted by the notion that there are only two real choices.

Nothing will change significantly until we show Labour and the Tories that this is no longer the case.

All The Best
There is no inconsistency in my post, logical or otherwise. I was simply highlighting the fact that people consider politicians promises with a good deal of scepticism. Farage has obviously gelled Tories to abandon their party. You stated that I said Farage hasn't formed a government, but isn't that truth? He hasn't and is it also true to state that he is unlikely to. Oh it may be stated that UKIP may try to enter into a coalition with the incompetents, but haven't the past four years or so proven that coalitions don't really work. Especially not in the modern age.
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Curious Cdn
Sep 28 2014, 10:28 PM
We had a break-away conservative movement in Canada (the Reform Party) and he net result was vote splitting, guaranteeing that no conservatives could come to power for most of a generation. Somewhere down the road, the break-away UKIP party and the Tories will have to kiss and make up if they ever want to form a government again.
You are of course right. The antagonism between UKIP and the Tories was primarily caused by intemperate comments by Cameron, as a result of which Farage and Cameron are daggers drawn and political tribalists adopt their positions. Friends who fall out always make more bitter opponents than those you never particularly got on with in the first place. First of course, UKIP need to win some seats in Westminster, rather than just causing the Conservatives to lose them to Labour
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Rich
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As far as this Brooks chap is concerned, he has, at the very least admitted that he has been a fool and has fallen on his sword and I say good riddance to him, who in their right mind would want a fool to walk through the division doors when a very important vote has to be taken?

I suppose I SHOULD say in his mitigation that at least he has done the right thing, but in all honesty I have to wonder if this particular trougher is just the tip of the iceberg, we have seen so much of this abuse of taxpayers money in the casino of the palace of Westminster it is no wonder that voter turn out is so low.......look no further to find out why UKIP is gaining ground.

As for Mark Reckless (there's a surname to be born with) Shapps says that he has been disloyal to his party.....on the contrary, I would say he has been LOYAL to his constituents who sent him to parliament and will do his best to deliver what his constituents hoped for when they elected him upon a conservative manifesto that was destroyed by entering into a coalition with the wooley tree hugging do gooders.
Edited by Rich, Sep 28 2014, 11:42 PM.
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Heinrich
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I have noticed that Tories who are fine chaps to their "honorable friends" overnight speak poison about their colleagues once they leave the party. It must be good for the defectors to know what the nasty spokesmen really thought of them all along.
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Rich
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Heinrich
Sep 29 2014, 12:03 AM
I have noticed that Tories who are fine chaps to their "honorable friends" overnight speak poison about their colleagues once they leave the party. It must be good for the defectors to know what the nasty spokesmen really thought of them all along.


But surely, ALL those in the house are "honourable"?

PS, note, that I spelled the word HONOURABLE correctly.
Edited by Rich, Sep 29 2014, 01:42 AM.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 09:18 PM
avagrumble
Sep 28 2014, 09:14 PM

What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in,
That depends, anyone working class who votes UKIP can't have read their 2010 manifesto.
If you had not noticed UKIP is taking votes away from the three main parties not just the Tories, if you also had not noticed the turn out of voters is getting lower not hard to work out way is it.
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Stan Still
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Rich
Sep 28 2014, 11:40 PM
As far as this Brooks chap is concerned, he has, at the very least admitted that he has been a fool and has fallen on his sword and I say good riddance to him, who in their right mind would want a fool to walk through the division doors when a very important vote has to be taken?

I suppose I SHOULD say in his mitigation that at least he has done the right thing, but in all honesty I have to wonder if this particular trougher is just the tip of the iceberg, we have seen so much of this abuse of taxpayers money in the casino of the palace of Westminster it is no wonder that voter turn out is so low.......look no further to find out why UKIP is gaining ground.

As for Mark Reckless (there's a surname to be born with) Shapps says that he has been disloyal to his party.....on the contrary, I would say he has been LOYAL to his constituents who sent him to parliament and will do his best to deliver what his constituents hoped for when they elected him upon a conservative manifesto that was destroyed by entering into a coalition with the wooley tree hugging do gooders.
Hear Hear well said at least you and a few others in here realize its nearly 2015 not 1955.
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Stan Still
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Heinrich
Sep 29 2014, 12:03 AM
I have noticed that Tories who are fine chaps to their "honorable friends" overnight speak poison about their colleagues once they leave the party. It must be good for the defectors to know what the nasty spokesmen really thought of them all along.
If you had not noticed the term " Honourable" is used in the house by all MP's to address each other when on their feet, they do not name each other out of tradition when Charles 1 walked in an demanded that members identify themselves to him in order that he could arrest some of them.

I am a traditionalist when it comes to our history but the term " Honourable " to describe some MP's does not sit well with me at all.
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somersetli
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Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 10:36 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 28 2014, 06:44 PM
Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:24 PM
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
Well, there's a huge logical inconsistency with you post.

You say we've seen this bull**it many times before but then go on to point out that Farage hasn't formed a government.

So how can we have seen the bull**it many times before?

Oh, wait, I know - when Labour promised British Jobs For British Workers perhaps?

Yes, we have seen lots of bull**it many, many times before - but ONLY from those parties that have been elected to form a government; and that doesn't, so far, include UKIP.

UKIP are easily as much a threat to Labour as they are the Tories; and that is a very good thing.

For far too long British politics has been perverted by the notion that there are only two real choices.

Nothing will change significantly until we show Labour and the Tories that this is no longer the case.

All The Best
There is no inconsistency in my post, logical or otherwise. I was simply highlighting the fact that people consider politicians promises with a good deal of scepticism. Farage has obviously gelled Tories to abandon their party. You stated that I said Farage hasn't formed a government, but isn't that truth? He hasn't and is it also true to state that he is unlikely to. Oh it may be stated that UKIP may try to enter into a coalition with the incompetents, but haven't the past four years or so proven that coalitions don't really work. Especially not in the modern age.
Interesting point here.............that coalitions do not work..............perhaps those who advocate PR, instead of FPTP, should take note.
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Tigger
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Stan Still
Sep 29 2014, 06:10 AM
papasmurf
Sep 28 2014, 09:18 PM
avagrumble
Sep 28 2014, 09:14 PM

What have we got to lose if UKIP gets in,
That depends, anyone working class who votes UKIP can't have read their 2010 manifesto.
If you had not noticed UKIP is taking votes away from the three main parties not just the Tories, if you also had not noticed the turn out of voters is getting lower not hard to work out way is it.
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
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Pro Veritas
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Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 10:36 PM
There is no inconsistency in my post, logical or otherwise.
That you think that just demonstrates that you lack the intellectual wherewithal to properly engage with the subject at hand.

All The Best
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Pro Veritas
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Tigger
Sep 29 2014, 07:18 PM
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
For now.

If Carswell holds on to Clacton that will change.

If MPs start to see that UKIP not only has public appeal, but enough public appeal to return a defector to his previous seat there'll be a few jump ship from Labour too.

All The Best
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Lewis
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Pro Veritas
Sep 29 2014, 09:11 PM
Tigger
Sep 29 2014, 07:18 PM
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
For now.

If Carswell holds on to Clacton that will change.

If MPs start to see that UKIP not only has public appeal, but enough public appeal to return a defector to his previous seat there'll be a few jump ship from Labour too.

All The Best
Sounds like wishful thinking on your part. I can't imagine any Labour MP would even consider siding with an ultra Tory Party. So let's wait and see. I wonder which Tory MP will be next?

A logical inconsistency if there can be one!
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jeevesnwooster
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Lewis
Sep 29 2014, 09:35 PM
Pro Veritas
Sep 29 2014, 09:11 PM
Tigger
Sep 29 2014, 07:18 PM
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
For now.

If Carswell holds on to Clacton that will change.

If MPs start to see that UKIP not only has public appeal, but enough public appeal to return a defector to his previous seat there'll be a few jump ship from Labour too.

All The Best
Sounds like wishful thinking on your part. I can't imagine any Labour MP would even consider siding with an ultra Tory Party. So let's wait and see. I wonder which Tory MP will be next?

A logical inconsistency if there can be one!
:-\ Absolutely

These odd folk talking about the piossibility of Labour MP defections to UKIP must live in cloud cuckoo land

If any sort of leftist or centre-left party was on Labour's turf, they mught have a point. But UKIP? Nah
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Tigger
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Pro Veritas
Sep 29 2014, 09:11 PM
Tigger
Sep 29 2014, 07:18 PM
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
For now.

If Carswell holds on to Clacton that will change.

If MPs start to see that UKIP not only has public appeal, but enough public appeal to return a defector to his previous seat there'll be a few jump ship from Labour too.

All The Best
There is certainly some scope for UKIP to take some Labour MP's but there are way more opportunities on the hard right, Little Englander, the Empire is not dead bloody wogs Tory backbenches.

Not missed anything there have I?
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Steve K
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Pro Veritas
Sep 29 2014, 09:11 PM
Tigger
Sep 29 2014, 07:18 PM
It is leaving deeper tank tracks on the Conservative lawn though.........
For now.

If Carswell holds on to Clacton that will change.

If MPs start to see that UKIP not only has public appeal, but enough public appeal to return a defector to his previous seat there'll be a few jump ship from Labour too.

All The Best
Certainly Carswell is key, he is a politician with credibility and could get re-elected and then even that squeaky voiced idiot Reckless might stand a chance.

I see our usual suspects repeat the usual tripe about manifestos being ignored (they're not) and the frying pan into fire logic of nothing could be worse than what we have now. Well UKIP with their ability to write that 2010 horror manifesto and their inability to do basic sums are very much the fire of that analogy.
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jeevesnwooster
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Steve K
 
nd the frying pan into fire logic of nothing could be worse than what we have now. Well UKIP with their ability to write that 2010 horror manifesto and their inability to do basic sums are very much the fire of that analogy.


Very much agreed
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Deleted User
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I believe Pro Veritas has made avery good point. UKIP having made considerable headway wooing Conservative voters, not to mention two Conservative MPs with a further two likely to join Carswell and Reckless in the near future, and are now turning their attention to Labour.

Many white working class Labour voters, particularly older ones, are right wing when it comes to law and order, the EU and immigration. They also feel abandoned by and disillusioned with Labour and its perceived incompetent leader. For many of these voters it is not so much the political stance of the Conservatives which encourages them to stay with Labour, but the ever present broad class issue, i.e. the Conservatives are for the wealthy, the bosses, the southerners. Many of these white working class Labour voters, particularly in the North, are also disillusioned by Labours blatant attempt to delay any English devolution for party political motives. UKIP have recognised a further fertile recruitment ground, and their policy, whether affordable or not, of raising the tax free threshold on earnings to £13.5k p.a. is just one of the electoral carrots. UKIPs manifesto has been moderated since 2010, but even if it is not altogether credible, there could be an electoral stampede away from the political establishment.

While I think it unlikely that any Labour MPs will cross over to UKIP I can see many disgruntled Labour voters doing so along with many disillusioned ex-Labour voters who have withdrawn from the electoral process altogether. Once UKIP are seen to be a viable option under the FPtP I believe the pace of political allegiance change will accelerate from both Labour and Conservative. One thing I am increasingly convinced of is that neither labour nor Conservatives will get an overall majority/
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Rich
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Major Sinic
Sep 29 2014, 10:21 PM
I believe Pro Veritas has made avery good point. UKIP having made considerable headway wooing Conservative voters, not to mention two Conservative MPs with a further two likely to join Carswell and Reckless in the near future, and are now turning their attention to Labour.

Many white working class Labour voters, particularly older ones, are right wing when it comes to law and order, the EU and immigration. They also feel abandoned by and disillusioned with Labour and its perceived incompetent leader. For many of these voters it is not so much the political stance of the Conservatives which encourages them to stay with Labour, but the ever present broad class issue, i.e. the Conservatives are for the wealthy, the bosses, the southerners. Many of these white working class Labour voters, particularly in the North, are also disillusioned by Labours blatant attempt to delay any English devolution for party political motives. UKIP have recognised a further fertile recruitment ground, and their policy, whether affordable or not, of raising the tax free threshold on earnings to £13.5k p.a. is just one of the electoral carrots. UKIPs manifesto has been moderated since 2010, but even if it is not altogether credible, there could be an electoral stampede away from the political establishment.

While I think it unlikely that any Labour MPs will cross over to UKIP I can see many disgruntled Labour voters doing so along with many disillusioned ex-Labour voters who have withdrawn from the electoral process altogether. Once UKIP are seen to be a viable option under the FPtP I believe the pace of political allegiance change will accelerate from both Labour and Conservative. One thing I am increasingly convinced of is that neither labour nor Conservatives will get an overall majority/


UKIP, has no chance of obtaining office but they do have every chance of stealing voters by virtue of what they stand for, of course, that means that both the cons and Lab will need to align their election promises with UKIP just to make sure that floating voters will stay with them, Milliband has already said that an EU referendum is not on the cards.......we shall see, and Cameron has to win to carry out his half promise of a referendum........I think that this next GE will see both main parties finally smell the coffee and treat voters as intelligent beings.
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RJD
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Stan Still
Sep 28 2014, 06:10 PM
I prefer to vote for those who would make things be better for me and mine, that is why I have never voted Labour.
I prefer to vote for that Party that will offer a better future for my grandchildren, Milliband with his anti-capitalist rhetoric and total disinterest in reducing the public sector deficit has made it impossible for me to vote Labour. I see that Labour has now become the Party of the extremes, that for reasons of votes totally avoids recognising the wart on the UK's economic nose. As for NL being the Party for the Many that requires editing to The Party for those that take rather than give to the State.
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C-too
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Pro Veritas
Sep 28 2014, 06:44 PM
Lewis
Sep 28 2014, 06:24 PM
Well Farage may have fooled many people but we have heard all the bull**t many times before. Lets face it he will never form a government so nothing he say will ever be enacted. However UKIP may serve a useful purpose in that they are destroying the Tory party, bit by bit. We have already seen two rats desert the sinking Tory ship, now wait for the stampede.
Well, there's a huge logical inconsistency with you post.

You say we've seen this bull**it many times before but then go on to point out that Farage hasn't formed a government.

So how can we have seen the bull**it many times before?



Yes, we have seen lots of bull**it many, many times before - but ONLY from those parties that have been elected to form a government; and that doesn't, so far, include UKIP.





Nothing will change significantly until we show Labour and the Tories that this is no longer the case.

All The Best
Quote:
 
Oh, wait, I know - when Labour promised British Jobs For British Workers perhaps?
You saved yourself with that "perhaps?".
Quote:
 
UKIP are easily as much a threat to Labour as they are the Tories; and that is a very good thing.
That has yet to be proven.
Quote:
 
For far too long British politics has been perverted by the notion that there are only two real choices.
There are only two sensible choices. If there is a positive rise of right-wing politics it will more than likely see a rise in an equal and opposite of left-wing politics. i.e. a dismembering of political consensus and a greater division in society.

UKip claims may seem quite juicy to some people but IMO they are likely to open a pandora's box, a dangerous political path.
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Affa
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RJD
Sep 30 2014, 07:03 AM
Stan Still
Sep 28 2014, 06:10 PM
I prefer to vote for those who would make things be better for me and mine, that is why I have never voted Labour.
I prefer to vote for that Party that will offer a better future for my grandchildren, Milliband with his anti-capitalist rhetoric and total disinterest in reducing the public sector deficit has made it impossible for me to vote Labour. I see that Labour has now become the Party of the extremes, that for reasons of votes totally avoids recognising the wart on the UK's economic nose. As for NL being the Party for the Many that requires editing to The Party for those that take rather than give to the State.
Quote:
 
As for NL being the Party for the Many that requires editing to The Party for those that take rather than give to the State.


Let's examine this last statement, the party political propaganda soundbite that it is, and see whether it contains any truth.

I'll start by making a similar assertion as above. If we still do consider that the Conservative Party are the party of the rich, of business, and at the same time consider Labour as representing the working class, employees, then we can also say that Labour represent the many, Conservatives the privileged.
In there somewhere was a space for the middle class, the working unprivileged haves, the group that can decide election outcomes. Who represents them?

When it comes to 'take rather than give' can we just call it greed instead of need?
I guess when you say that Labour are the party of takers, of greed, you mean as representing those on benefits, those on means tested supplements, the people at the bottom. Saying they are undeserving or are not in real need as Tories do will push them towards being Labour voters. Freezing benefits below inflation will certainly do that.
But my real motive for making this response is because when it comes to 'take rather than give' there are none so guilty as those the Tory Party serve. And yet under the last Labour government those same highest earners actually got richer, the wealth gap continued to get wider.

I read this ...... http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate-uk/2010/01/25/inequality-in-the-uk-the-paradox-under-labour/
Quote:
 

1. Since coming to power in 1997, Labour has changed the tax and benefit system to make poor people better off, and rich people worse off.

2. The gap between rich and poor is now larger than when Labour came to power.

An article that will confirm much that you say, whilst at the same time show why it is entirely wrong.
What people need most from government is not hand-outs, not public services, it is jobs, a way to earn enough to pay for their own needs and to have a family life.
Too many are denied this basic requirement, whilst FAR too much of the nation's wealth is given to those who need it the least.




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Stan Still
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Another Tory has defected to UKIP Barnes the former deputy major of London
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Steve K
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Affa
Sep 30 2014, 11:54 AM
RJD
Sep 30 2014, 07:03 AM
Stan Still
Sep 28 2014, 06:10 PM
I prefer to vote for those who would make things be better for me and mine, that is why I have never voted Labour.
I prefer to vote for that Party that will offer a better future for my grandchildren, Milliband with his anti-capitalist rhetoric and total disinterest in reducing the public sector deficit has made it impossible for me to vote Labour. I see that Labour has now become the Party of the extremes, that for reasons of votes totally avoids recognising the wart on the UK's economic nose. As for NL being the Party for the Many that requires editing to The Party for those that take rather than give to the State.
Quote:
 
As for NL being the Party for the Many that requires editing to The Party for those that take rather than give to the State.


Let's examine this last statement, the party political propaganda soundbite that it is, and see whether it contains any truth.

I'll start by making a similar assertion as above. If we still do consider that the Conservative Party are the party of the rich, of business, and at the same time consider Labour as representing the working class, employees, then we can also say that Labour represent the many, Conservatives the privileged.
In there somewhere was a space for the middle class, the working unprivileged haves, the group that can decide election outcomes. Who represents them?

When it comes to 'take rather than give' can we just call it greed instead of need?
I guess when you say that Labour are the party of takers, of greed, you mean as representing those on benefits, those on means tested supplements, the people at the bottom. Saying they are undeserving or are not in real need as Tories do will push them towards being Labour voters. Freezing benefits below inflation will certainly do that.
But my real motive for making this response is because when it comes to 'take rather than give' there are none so guilty as those the Tory Party serve. And yet under the last Labour government those same highest earners actually got richer, the wealth gap continued to get wider.

I read this ...... http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate-uk/2010/01/25/inequality-in-the-uk-the-paradox-under-labour/
Quote:
 

1. Since coming to power in 1997, Labour has changed the tax and benefit system to make poor people better off, and rich people worse off.

2. The gap between rich and poor is now larger than when Labour came to power.

An article that will confirm much that you say, whilst at the same time show why it is entirely wrong.
What people need most from government is not hand-outs, not public services, it is jobs, a way to earn enough to pay for their own needs and to have a family life.
Too many are denied this basic requirement, whilst FAR too much of the nation's wealth is given to those who need it the least.




!clp! well said

It was actually Gordon Brown that I first heard make that point so clearly. The way out of relative poverty is jobs. But sadly under NL they did so little to create jobs and so much to discourage them.

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Steve K
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Stan Still
Sep 30 2014, 06:35 PM
Another Tory has defected to UKIP Barnes the former deputy major of London
So a nonentity nobody joins the party with no consistency. What a feckwit

"He argued Ukip was the only party with the right answers on leaving the EU, sorting out immigration and taking a strong position on HS2 and Heathrow expansion."

Obviously hadn't read their 2010 manifesto. UKIP were THE party to commit themselves wholesale to HS2. But then that's UKIP supporters all over, they never ever read beyond headlines. Maybe they want to create a new IS - the Ignoramuses State.
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Pro Veritas
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So 2 Tories jumped ship yesterday, not one.

And the Westminster rumour mill is saying a "senior tory" will defect today to coincide with the PM's speech to conference.

Things are getting interesting.

All The Best
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Stan Still
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Steve K
Sep 30 2014, 07:43 PM
Stan Still
Sep 30 2014, 06:35 PM
Another Tory has defected to UKIP Barnes the former deputy major of London
So a nonentity nobody joins the party with no consistency. What a feckwit

"He argued Ukip was the only party with the right answers on leaving the EU, sorting out immigration and taking a strong position on HS2 and Heathrow expansion."

Obviously hadn't read their 2010 manifesto. UKIP were THE party to commit themselves wholesale to HS2. But then that's UKIP supporters all over, they never ever read beyond headlines. Maybe they want to create a new IS - the Ignoramuses State.
Up him his decision it maybe the right one for him then again it may not be, do I care ? no
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