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| G Osborne on deficit reduction | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 29 2014, 11:25 AM (739 Views) | |
| Affa | Sep 29 2014, 11:25 AM Post #1 |
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The Chancellor has just told that forgetting to mention the deficit is negligence that should bar a person from high office. Yet I recall that he as Chancellor that confused debt with deficit, and saw no reason to resign for doing so. But my point for posting was made when Osborne said that the country was reducing the deficit the fastest of any major nation. The deficit has not been reducing at a fast rate since 2011 when the economy was still responding to the A Darling recovery plan, and the deficit was cut by a third. Since when it has virtually stalled. I'd be here all day if I were to list Osborne's duplicities. Edited by Affa, Oct 2 2014, 05:30 PM.
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 07:30 AM Post #41 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Marxist twaddle. You may have noticed but many have been replaced by machines in the last 50 years. The idea that the total enterprise is built on the back of a machine minder is so Victorian. Many processes these days have the cost of capital higher than the cost of labour. |
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| disgruntled porker | Oct 1 2014, 07:43 AM Post #42 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Yes, replacing people with machines is wonderful. Until there aren't enough people earning the money to buy the products made by the machines. Then, the man who has invested in machines is suddenly skint himself because he can't sell his wares. You would have made a fine Victorian mill owner. |
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| Steve K | Oct 1 2014, 08:48 AM Post #43 |
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Once and future cynic
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Or worse has scarpered off to some far away idyl on the riches. Nothing wrong replacing a job with a machine if it is all positive in the macro economic sense. But so often it isn't with the state left to fund benefits for those thrown out of work and into misery. Moving taxation from employment to higher tax on the product being sold would be a huge step in the right direction. Sadly so much of Labouresqe dogma is about taxing people for employing people in the delusion that the only way the rich make money is by oppressing indigenous workers. That was becoming increasingly untrue by the late 19th century, it's certainly untrue now. The working age people most oppressed nowadays are those unemployed. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 1 2014, 09:12 AM Post #44 |
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Quite. Closely followed by the long term sick and disabled. |
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 06:31 PM Post #45 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Well automation has been refined and improved every decade for more than one hundred years now and there is no sign of it abating. In fact today machines achieve accuracies of precision and speeds of assembly that a human cannot match. The truth is that such innovations have made our lives materially richer. The Luddites would have us spinning yarns by hand and weaving with hand looms. |
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| gee4444 | Oct 1 2014, 06:37 PM Post #46 |
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Codswallop. The introduction of machines has predominantly increased productivity and profits. Obviously some jobs have been replaced by machines (those replaced are dumped on the scrap heap and labelled as scroungers of course) but in the main machines are utilised to squeeze more productivity out of an already overworked and underpaid workforce. |
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 06:37 PM Post #47 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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They make the mistake of believing that the economy, businesses, industry etc requires hordes of unskilled uneducated workers, it doesn't. It requires increasingly less and there is much motivation, not particularly led by cost, to design humans out of the production process as far as that is possible. The Marxist twaddle that only working men with dirt on their hands create the wealth that everyone else picks over is just poppycock, in many, very many cases not only are they least important element in the adding value process they are the greatest cause of cock-ups. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 1 2014, 06:40 PM Post #48 |
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They do need customers for their good and services though, which is now approaching a crisis with now around 18 million households in the country on the financial edge with barely enough to cover the bills they have to pay and eat, let alone anything else. |
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| gee4444 | Oct 1 2014, 06:47 PM Post #49 |
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So you can't you provide figures for the amount of talent leaving the UK due to overbearing tax demands. I've seen many people leave these shores to take up better jobs abroad, almost all of them do not earn in excess of £150k. The tax rate of 50% (lower since the Tories took office obviously) is only applicable to earnings over £150,000. I don't see that as excessive. If it was 50% from 70K or 80K then I'd probably agree that it was excessive. Keep you high salaries. Just don't moan about being asked to pay a fair amount of them in tax. Only the greedy amongst us would do such a thing. |
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 06:53 PM Post #50 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Not my fault that we have so many people with poor education and no skills that have limited value in the global market place. We should have thought about this before we commenced with our dumbing down process. You have to understand that we are a signed up member, full member of the global market place and as a consequence have very limited room for political/social manoeuvre. Time to wake up to the fact that there is intense competition for jobs even more so where there is a massive surplus of labour. The Planet has insufficient work for all and it will get worse in the future. |
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| gee4444 | Oct 1 2014, 06:53 PM Post #51 |
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Of course you are correct RJD. The proof of your point is in the dumbing down of the plebs education system. As industry in the UK has declined so has the requirement for a worker to be educated to a basic level (for they are more efficient than an uneducated one and thus increase profits). Your claim that workers are no longer the source of wealth is laughable. It's true the focus of their efforts has altered but the plebs still scurry around 5 days a week to enable them to exist. They are still employed by somebody don't you agree? These days we are all busy mainly making banks richer. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 1 2014, 07:05 PM Post #52 |
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Every part of your post is correct, but the conclusions you draw from it are wrong. 1) The fact that the planet has insufficient work is a completely artificial problem that could be alleviated tomorrow 2) The fact that we have no space to maneuver politically or socially is because of a system that is completely broken, so why do you persist in defending it and in your own small way, making it even worse for those thrown into the rat-race Time to wake up, as you say, to the fact that the intense competition in the world and the greed of those at the top, is going to ultimately bring us all down if it continues as it is unfettered Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 1 2014, 07:06 PM.
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 07:10 PM Post #53 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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GE4444: Of course you are correct RJD. The proof of your point is in the dumbing down of the plebs education system. I think that was a political choice and absolutely nothing to do with Commerce or Industry or Capitalism. In reality modern manufacturing processes require higher skilled machine minders than previously. So I do not accept your claim. GE444: As industry in the UK has declined so has the requirement for a worker to be educated to a basic level (for they are more efficient than an uneducated one and thus increase profits). That is absolute poppycock. Skilled people are in demand and their wages have commensurately increased even during this difficult period. In fact businesses complain that they cannot find the necessary quality to satisfy demand. So your claim is not based on reality. GE4444: Your claim that workers are no longer the source of wealth is laughable. It's true the focus of their efforts has altered but the plebs still scurry around 5 days a week to enable them to exist. They are still employed by somebody don't you agree? These days we are all busy mainly making banks richer. I think the only thing you have demonstrated is your ignorance of the reality of the situation. If you looked closely you would find that in very many processes the amount of value in the final product price attributable to such people as you refer to as Plebs is minor and often not that significant. Yes the machines would stop if not minded, but that does not allow you to infer that such proves the Minders are the most important factor in the added value chain. The truth is that Politicians decided to dumb down labour and lost interest in training for the workplace and as a consequence we are limiting the amount of total value we can add, hence limiting the GDP per capita. I know you love to hate Bankers and blame them for every evil that visits this Planet, personally I find it rather boring and too predictable. Change the record. |
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| RJD | Oct 1 2014, 07:16 PM Post #54 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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J&W: The fact that the planet has insufficient work is a completely artificial problem that could be alleviated tomorrow. You do not say how? J&W: The fact that we have no space to maneuver politically or socially is because of a system that is completely broken, so why do you persist in defending it and in your own small way, making it even worse for those thrown into the rat-race. "Completely broken" needs an explanation? You stating such is not sufficient proof. J&W: Time to wake up, as you say, to the fact that the intense competition in the world and the greed of those at the top, is going to ultimately bring us all down if it continues as it is unfettered. But it is not unfettered, so why claim that it is? Mr J&W it is time for you to understand that saying things that chime well in your ears is not proof of anything other than you appear to have signed up to some secret dogma that you are unwilling to share. Spit it out man and do not be coy about it. I just hope you have not signed up for that socialist tripe that ruined so many lives in the last century. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 1 2014, 07:38 PM Post #55 |
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"You do not say how?" There are lots of different ways of doing this to be honest, it's not just one-size-fits-all political dogma My point is, that the current system does not provide for the majority and yet there is loads of work that needs doing. Even in this country, it has been proven that there are employers who can't find people when they need them (the topics been raised here before, I've seen it). Because people only work for certain conditions, in certain jobs that are deemed profitable people are cast on the scrap-heap for not fitting in with this, it doesn't matter how productive they are or what they offer if it doesn't "make money" it's deemed useless to society, when in reality it's not We need to re-alter our perspectives completely and start working towards a common goal that has nothing to do with the profit motive ""Completely broken" needs an explanation? You stating such is not sufficient proof." World recession, world boom and bust, over a billion people in crippling poverty, those at the top getting richer by the day, unsustainable debt in most countries and unsustinable standards of living for most in Rich countries, around 10k children die every day mostly from completely preventable illnesses "But it is not unfettered, so why claim that it is? Fettered only by cronyism, true "libertarian" principles are only applied where it's convenient. For the most part, it is unfettered and the poor suffer the world over "Mr J&W it is time for you to understand that saying things that chime well in your ears is not proof of anything other than you appear to have signed up to some secret dogma that you are unwilling to share. Spit it out man and do not be coy about it. I just hope you have not signed up for that socialist tripe that ruined so many lives in the last century. " I have no secret 'dogma', in fact I have not 'signed up' to any official political current. None of the things I say chime well in my ears either, they/'re quite depressing honestly? My "solutions" are a multitude of different things that have either never been tried before, or that haven't been fully formed because they require experts (and when I mean experts, I mean people that have a proven track record of success) to work together to stitch it all together. I don't claim to be a know-it-all or someone with all the answers unlike many Claiming I'm a socialist is neither here nor there. Are you a libertarian? Do you know that libertarianism supposedly crosses over into anarchism (which in many people's minds is practically unfettered socialism). Does the idea of a mutualist society interest you with enclaves for free libertarian (Capitalist) experiments where people can try out their own political dogmas and people are free to join those enclaves if they agree with the idea? That's just ONE idea that I think MIGHT have a chance of success, partly because it's never really been tried on a large scale before (there were supposedly libertarian capitalist enclaves during the short-lived Hungarian rebellion against the Soviets run by smallholders, as well as left-communist enclaves and small anarcho-communist communities) |
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| RJD | Oct 2 2014, 08:06 AM Post #56 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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J&W: "You do not say how?" I can point to lists of unemployed. What additional evidence do you require? J&W: There are lots of different ways of doing this to be honest, it's not just one-size-fits-all political dogma Meaningless blather. J&W: My point is, that the current system does not provide for the majority and yet there is loads of work that needs doing. Such as? Where are your examples? J&W: Even in this country, it has been proven that there are employers who can't find people when they need them (the topics been raised here before, I've seen it). Yes positions for well educated and skilled people do remain unfilled, but those for the army without such are filled with ~100 looking for each job. I am afraid you seem to have kissed the Blarney stone. |
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| C-too | Oct 2 2014, 08:45 AM Post #57 |
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Honourable Member
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The run up to the election will show whether or not they have the "means, or inclination" or the "wit". Time will tell. PS. Between 1950 and 1970 the Tories visited the IMF on more occasions than Labour. Funny old world ain't it.
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| ACH1967 | Oct 2 2014, 10:38 AM Post #58 |
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When you say that there are “loads of things that need doing” could you give me a few examples so that I know what kind of things you are referring to? When you say that people only work in roles that are “deemed profitable” what do you mean by your use of the word “deemed”? Can you see us altering our perspectives completely? I would suggest that what you would need were a few examples of alternative models that work effectively and then there might be the potential for these models to become more prevalent as a consequence of their success. No doubt vested interests will resist. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 11:55 AM Post #59 |
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"Meaningless blather" Meaningless because it's true? Do you only accept a point of view if it conveniently fits into a one-size-fits-all political current with a large base of support, if so it just shows how brainwashed and dyed in the wool you are. As for the point about alleviating world unemployment, you ignore my points and talk about offering evidence of unemployment (???) And this - "J&W: My point is, that the current system does not provide for the majority and yet there is loads of work that needs doing. Such as? Where are your examples?" I can't believe I need to show you examples of work that remains unfinished, there is an abundance of it everywhere you care to look (if you open your eyes). Building projects abandoned, half-finished, infrastructural projects, unmaintained green spaces, unmaintained streets, roads. Disused and closed down community centres, really the list is endless If you want examples of employers unable to get the goods - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26936732 http://feweek.co.uk/2014/01/31/survey-shows-employers-cant-fill-22pc-of-vacancies/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8575852/Lack-of-skills-leaves-employers-struggling-to-fill-vacancies.html There are a lot of reasons for this, underqualified staff, overqualified staff, not fitting the pointlessly 'exact' specification of jobs, lack of flexibility from employers. Giving them too much power is never a good thing. It's not just about a skills shortage, it's more artificial than that All artificial problems created in an artificial economy based on artificial wealth "I am afraid you seem to have kissed the Blarney stone." And you don't seem to be able to conjure up a coherent reply to what I wrote, so I'll leave you to it |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 12:22 PM Post #60 |
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Refer to my last reply to RJD for things that need doing By deemed profitable I mean jobs that ultimately create more wealth Regarding alternative models, it's up to you if you alter your perspective completely, that would take doing your own research/ I'm not going to preach to anyone, I only talked about it because RJD asked me a direct question. What history has taught me, is that the loose-mixed ideology collectives that have formed in things such as rebellions, mass strikes and 'revolutions' - soviet (only up to 1917, also the hungarian, ukrainian [makhnovist], workers opposition, left opposition), chinese (shanghai commune 1927), british (unionism in late-19thC, the great unrest, post-war strikes, 1924, miners strike), irish (belfast dockers strike, dublin gen. strike), american (the multitude of gen. strikes from 1900-1920), french (paris commune most of all), german (the spartakist rebellion and civil war, 1920'x mixed ideological battles), spanish (civil war most of all) examples I'm drawing from directly here. These all bring about interesting and largely undefinable politics that no-one can really refute without drawing on extremely inaccurate propaganda. Most, if not all of these things were crushed by military might, or dissolved and the people involved suppressed both by "Communists" and Capitalists alike.~ A lot of the evidence that backs these things up are laced with propaganda either for or against them, which is a shame but that's because they aren't well documented, being so brief in history and all |
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| Rich | Oct 2 2014, 01:24 PM Post #61 |
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What worries me is that Mr Gove was trying his damndest to reverse this trend, unfortunately those above lost their bottle and sidelined him and so our educational standards will either stagnate or decline as unless you have the brightest pupils who will be potential teachers then the standards exponentially will further decline. |
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| ACH1967 | Oct 2 2014, 01:58 PM Post #62 |
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So there loads of things that need to be done! To get them done we need people to do these things. To get people to do these things…we are probably going to have to pay them. To pay them we need the money to pay them. Where are we going to get that money from? |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 02:03 PM Post #63 |
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You could force them to do it for free if you're a Tory, or you could try doing away with money , neither of these things are popular I understand |
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| ACH1967 | Oct 2 2014, 02:57 PM Post #64 |
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I prefer "you could force them to do it for free if you are a bast*rd" rather than Tory. Surely just simple mathematical anaylsis of the number of people who are bast*rds and the number of people who vote Tory will tell you that not all Tory voters are Bast*rds. Money is just an exchange mechanism. Much easier than using Hamsters. If you used Hamsters it would be the most vicious hamster breeders who were richest and you wouldn't want that now would you? |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 02:58 PM Post #65 |
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We could try doing away with any exchange mechanism and operate a gift economy |
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| ACH1967 | Oct 2 2014, 03:38 PM Post #66 |
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Have you seen those perspective gags where they show the world from a dogs perspective? Where every word is blah until they say the dogs name? That was what it was like for me reading about a gift economy...i understood the words gift economy. |
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| RJD | Oct 2 2014, 03:53 PM Post #67 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Were Cameron and Osborne alive then? Milliband must have been as he seems to want to take us back to the despicable 60s. |
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| RJD | Oct 2 2014, 04:01 PM Post #68 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You could force them into hard labour in Gulags if you were a Socialist, it's been done before. Tell you what why don't we have a planned economy, a ten year plan say to straighten out everything. Borrow the dosh, invest like crazy and hope for the best. It's been done before, last time they even called it "the white heap of technology" as so much of the investment, Labours, was mothballed or left in heaps in fields. I see Milliband is dreaming of a ten year tractor plan. The joke in the USSR in the bad old days was that the metal fixings sector had fulfilled it's 5 year plan in three years, unfortunately all the nails were one size, the largest 6". |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 04:11 PM Post #69 |
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The Conservatives are practically Stalinists then, how fitting. Labour are more like the Mensheviks or something. They did say Thatcher was a staunch Leninist up til the mid-70's Gift economies are an interesting idea, every idea that hasn't been tried is an interesting idea, every idea that has not been given a proper go is also fairly interesting in my opinion. No one will hang around long enough to find out more, or if they do they'll go too far and end up with some sort of extremist opinion about it |
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| Affa | Oct 2 2014, 05:37 PM Post #70 |
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Don't be sidetracked by this right-wing drivel where Ach(e) decides that the only jobs worth doing are those that create wealth. Ask him how much wealth a Lawyer creates, an Estate Agent, a Politician. Providing services can earn some people fantastic wealth, though their efforts produce nothing of material value. Should I call them parasites, spongers, leaches, none jobs, 'lefties' Edited by Affa, Oct 2 2014, 05:39 PM.
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| gee4444 | Oct 2 2014, 06:18 PM Post #71 |
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What you think is just your opinion and shall be ignored for the sake of my sanity. Better educated workers to operate complex machinery - of course and I agree. However, a lot less of them are required. The excess are surplus to requirements and money spent educating them is a waste. Education of the plebs was driven by industrialists and taken up by Socialists later. Socialists are now a rarity. You work it out. Wages have commensurately increased over this difficult period! I know from first hand experience that is not true. Save your lies for the gullable. Of course I hate bankers. They have created this shit hole. I care not one jot that it bores you. All that proves is that you are ignorant to the truth (don't worry though, you've got plenty of company). |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 2 2014, 06:54 PM Post #72 |
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You're right Affa, I should leave him to it really And RJD's classic: "Skilled people are in demand and their wages have increased even during this difficult period. " What an absolute joke, an absolute joke. This guy really does believe in, as cassetteboy would say "giving power to the tycoon in the glass tower" |
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| Lewis | Oct 5 2014, 10:42 AM Post #73 |
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He lives in an alternative universe of his own making, certainly not the real one. A bit like Gideon's so-called tax cuts. Increase the tax free allowance, whilst at the same time reducing the value of tax credits. Net result = zilch! |
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| gee4444 | Oct 5 2014, 10:47 AM Post #74 |
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Stumbled across this on YouTube yesterday. It's a very good summary of what I now refer to as the Cancervative party: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YBumQHPAeU |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 5 2014, 10:48 AM Post #75 |
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Of course they do. They claim it even when it is a lie. Because as long as they keep claiming that bought and paid for politicians will continue to flood the country with immigrants - driving down wages and undermining working condition laws. And that saves money for those businesses. Your understanding of reality is woeful. All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Oct 5 2014, 10:49 AM.
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| C-too | Oct 5 2014, 11:03 AM Post #76 |
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Honourable Member
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The Tories were alive and doing damage. And the guys from the Grammar School system were in positions of influence. Says it all about the dispicable Tories and some of your theories. |
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7:36 PM Jul 11