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Midwives are revolting
Topic Started: Sep 30 2014, 08:10 AM (266 Views)
papasmurf
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Midwives have voted for strike action for the first time in their 133 year history:-


https://www.rcm.org.uk/midwives/news/midwives-vote-yes-for-strike-action



Midwives vote 'yes' for strike action


09/29/2014 - 16:15


by

Rob Dabrowski


Members of the RCM in England have voted ‘yes’ to industrial action in a dispute over pay in England, it has been announced.


Midwives vote for strike action


A total of 82.2% of those who took part in the ballot said they are prepared to take part in a strike, while 94.6% said they were in favour of action short of a strike.

Industrial action is set to start on the morning of 13 October with a four-hour stoppage.

The turnout of those eligible to vote was 49.4% and it is the first time in the RCM’s 133-year history that members are set to strike.

Cathy Warwick, RCM chief executive, said: ‘This is a resounding yes from our members. It could not send a clearer signal about the level of discontent on this issue to those denying them a very modest 1% pay increase.

‘Our members have suffered three years of pay restraint and face the prospect that their pay in 2016 will only be 1% higher than it was in 2010.

‘The recommendations from all public sector pay review bodies have been followed except those for health workers. This is not acceptable.

‘There is still time to come back to the negotiating table and to take a more reasonable position on the PRB recommendation.’

Cathy stressed that the RCM will be meeting with employers to discuss the action and to ensure that mothers and babies are not put at any risk.

She added: ‘I want to reassure women expecting a baby that midwives will continue to look after them and that they will be safe.‘

A recent poll showed that four-fifths (80%) of the UK public say they would support a 1% pay rise for NHS staff.

It also showed that around two-thirds (63%) would support industrial action by midwives, as a sign of protest against the decision not to increase their salaries by 1%.

The yes vote follows the rejection by employers of the Independent NHS PRB recommendation of a1% pay rise for NHS staff.

The RCM will be working with other unions taking similar action to coordinate activity.
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jeevesnwooster
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Good on them, of course this action along with the other fragmented strike action scheduled, will have little effect due to the union bureaucracy imposing this government's draconian labour regulation with startling efficiency.




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Alberich
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Good on them you might think. But NOT so good for those pregnant women relying on their services, or the NHS, which will have to cover. Why we cannot devise a system of binding arbitration in ALL industrial disputes, and then ban ALL strikes as anachronisms in the modern workplace is hard to fathom.
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papasmurf
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Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:19 PM
Why we cannot devise a system of binding arbitration in ALL industrial disputes, and then ban ALL strikes as anachronisms in the modern workplace is hard to fathom.
There is a very simple solution only employ Japanese management and CEOs.
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Alberich
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papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 01:22 PM
Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:19 PM
Why we cannot devise a system of binding arbitration in ALL industrial disputes, and then ban ALL strikes as anachronisms in the modern workplace is hard to fathom.
There is a very simple solution only employ Japanese management and CEOs.
Not so, Smurfy. That is the opinion of a despond. ALL strikes end with a compromise. Strikes invariably inconvenience, or on occasion, endanger the public; people who are not in any way involved. They are at best a blunt instrument that rarely achieve anything like the ambitions of overly powerful trade union bigwigs who just love playing the Grand Old Duke of York. Arbitration is the way forward. We should have ACAS settle every dispute, and make their decision binding on both sides. Strikes have had their day. They are so passe.

PS. Aren't you just delighted that Mrs T., had the courage, and the foresight, to denude some of said union leaders of their power to inflict damage on the nations economy, and the public at large????

Or perhaps not.......
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papasmurf
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Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:46 PM
Not so, Smurfy. That is the opinion of a despond.
No it is the opinion of a realist. Factories with British workers and Japanese management have good worker management relationships with few if any strikes.
The problem is with VERY few exceptions British management could not run a "party" in brewery and have next to no man management skills.
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krugerman
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My wife is a member of the "Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association" and that organisation sent out ballot papers for industrial action some time ago.

This government wants to worsen conditions and drive down pay, they want doctors to work more hours, for less pay.

Never in the history of the NHS have staff across the board been so angry and millitant, some workers and groups who have never gone on strike before are preparing to do so for the first time.

The governments pay offer goes against the independent pay review body, it also comes on top of 4 years of pay freezes for many health workers.

I am afraid that Cameron has stirred up a hornets nest, the general public dont like the NHS been meddled with, and they certainly dont like nurses been treated like they are by this government, but in a strange kind of way I am smiling to myself, because its all turning sour for this horrible governments prospects for 2015.

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I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 02:02 PM
Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:46 PM
Not so, Smurfy. That is the opinion of a despond.
No it is the opinion of a realist. Factories with British workers and Japanese management have good worker management relationships with few if any strikes.
The problem is with VERY few exceptions British management could not run a "party" in brewery and have next to no man management skills.
Well I spent several months in 2012 in just one such establishment.

While I did not have to sing the company song, it was played over the tannoy for the two minutes prior to the production line kicking off ... and woe were you if you were not in place stood to attention when the final four notes rang out ...

The Japanese Management were thought of very highly by the locals when during the first two months I was there they took on 500 extra people.

When in November the same managers re-analysed the sales figures and laid every one of those people off and a few hundred more, I think they were a lot less popular.

The same sentiment was felt around the assembly plant just down the road that William Hague wasted millions of our tax pounds subsidising the destruction of an entire mediaeval village in order to have this monster built. It never got used for its intended purpose.

The Japanese Management Style may be better than our home grown one but it certainly has its problems, not least the rejection of those who "reek of butter" on their return "home".
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Affa
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johnofgwent
Sep 30 2014, 04:00 PM
Well I spent several months in 2012 in just one such establishment.


The Japanese Management Style may be better than our home grown one but it certainly has its problems, not least the rejection of those who "reek of butter" on their return "home".
'It was butter, the Japanese thought, which made Europeans so peculiarly rank: bata-kusai they called them (using the English word for the foul substance): “butter-stinkers." The terms Bata-kusai, “stinking of butter,” is still a derogatory term for things obnoxiously Western'.

'As "Stinking Of Butter," The Phrase Referres Either To A Westerner, Or a Japanese Citizen Who Seemingly Had Drawn Too Heavily Upon Western Influences, And Was, Therefore, Tainted'.

Had to look it up ......... nice one. I do admire the Japanese, Eastern culture in general. They're not PC obsessed.

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Karoshi is a rather quaint Japanese phenomenon. It never quite caught on here though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 01:22 PM
Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:19 PM
Why we cannot devise a system of binding arbitration in ALL industrial disputes, and then ban ALL strikes as anachronisms in the modern workplace is hard to fathom.
There is a very simple solution only employ Japanese management and CEOs.
But that is a decision for the companies and not the State. I have seen no evidence that Japanese or other nationals make for better managers, in fact in Japan, they tend to be very dictatorial especially at the very top.
As for Midwives, are they a special case as I understand that many in the private sector have suffered wage reductions. What secure salary, perks and pensions do Midwives enjoy by way of the generosity of Taxpayers?
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RJD
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johnofgwent
Sep 30 2014, 04:00 PM
papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 02:02 PM
Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:46 PM
Not so, Smurfy. That is the opinion of a despond.
No it is the opinion of a realist. Factories with British workers and Japanese management have good worker management relationships with few if any strikes.
The problem is with VERY few exceptions British management could not run a "party" in brewery and have next to no man management skills.
Well I spent several months in 2012 in just one such establishment.

While I did not have to sing the company song, it was played over the tannoy for the two minutes prior to the production line kicking off ... and woe were you if you were not in place stood to attention when the final four notes rang out ...

The Japanese Management were thought of very highly by the locals when during the first two months I was there they took on 500 extra people.

When in November the same managers re-analysed the sales figures and laid every one of those people off and a few hundred more, I think they were a lot less popular.

The same sentiment was felt around the assembly plant just down the road that William Hague wasted millions of our tax pounds subsidising the destruction of an entire mediaeval village in order to have this monster built. It never got used for its intended purpose.

The Japanese Management Style may be better than our home grown one but it certainly has its problems, not least the rejection of those who "reek of butter" on their return "home".
I suspect Mr Smurf has zero experience of managing anything. The reality is with international companies British Managers have a good reputation and that is why one finds so many at the top in the USA and European countries. I think if he spent five minutes in Japan on a production line he would go running to the Shop steward.



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RJD
Sep 30 2014, 04:32 PM
papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 01:22 PM
Alberich
Sep 30 2014, 01:19 PM
Why we cannot devise a system of binding arbitration in ALL industrial disputes, and then ban ALL strikes as anachronisms in the modern workplace is hard to fathom.
There is a very simple solution only employ Japanese management and CEOs.
But that is a decision for the companies and not the State. I have seen no evidence that Japanese or other nationals make for better managers, in fact in Japan, they tend to be very dictatorial especially at the very top.
As for Midwives, are they a special case as I understand that many in the private sector have suffered wage reductions. What secure salary, perks and pensions do Midwives enjoy by way of the generosity of Taxpayers?


I do not believe any public sector worker should be a special case. I have heard much attempts at stirring up support for them regarding wages and pension at yet when my management arbitarily dropped the staffs' wages by 5% a few years ago not one nurse turned to support us .  ::)
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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 30 2014, 04:36 PM
I suspect Mr Smurf has zero experience of managing anything. The reality is with international companies British Managers have a good reputation and that is why one finds so many at the top in the USA and European countries. I think if he spent five minutes in Japan on a production line he would go running to the Shop steward.



RJD I suspect if you spent any time on a production line you would joined a union.
I actually have experience of management in several places where just in time would have failed if I had produced the components on my section of machinery in the sequence the management planned. It was simple a case of running the components of the same diameter which required next to no setting time to change from one component to the other, instead of the two or three hours needed to reset for different diameters.
The management were also asking me to do a reset because they "had run out of a component" when all that has happened was a welder has forklifted a pallet of several thousand of them into his welding bay instead of getting the 50 he needed in a tin.
Don't try lecturing me about management RJD.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 04:48 PM
RJD
Sep 30 2014, 04:36 PM
I suspect Mr Smurf has zero experience of managing anything. The reality is with international companies British Managers have a good reputation and that is why one finds so many at the top in the USA and European countries. I think if he spent five minutes in Japan on a production line he would go running to the Shop steward.



RJD I suspect if you spent any time on a production line you would joined a union.
I actually have experience of management in several places where just in time would have failed if I had produced the components on my section of machinery in the sequence the management planned. It was simple a case of running the components of the same diameter which required next to no setting time to change from one component to the other, instead of the two or three hours needed to reset for different diameters.
The management were also asking me to do a reset because they "had run out of a component" when all that has happened was a welder has forklifted a pallet of several thousand of them into his welding bay instead of getting the 50 he needed in a tin.
Don't try lecturing me about management RJD.
You would be wrong Mr Smurf and I have spent a lot of my life on such production lines making them more efficient and productive. I could not possibly have joined a Trade Union in those days as my interests were in securing jobs for the future and theirs was purely political and the diametric opposite of mine. I wanted to secure the profitability of companies, but many Unions did not give a stuff for that.

Mr Smurf you confuse production line or Machine Shop supervision with running a business and they are not the same. If you want to understand why British Managers are considered to be good then wonder why it is that so many UK companies are in the FTSE Top 50.

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krugerman
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gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Sep 30 2014, 05:02 PM
You would be wrong Mr Smurf and I have spent a lot of my life on such production lines
That isn't working in them RJD, there is a difference.
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Stan Still
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Thank heavens the days of over manned slow methods of production on clapped out machinery way past their sell by dates are gone, along with the little commissar shop stewards and their closed shop closed minds mentality that I recall and had to endure years ago.

As for nursing staff they are an essential part of the emergency services strikes should be forbidden for any branch of the emergency services, and as already said ACAS should deal with the problem and their decision should be binding on both sides.
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krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .
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krugerman
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gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .
Midwives will go on strike for the first time as part of concerted industrial action by NHS staff over the government’s rejection of a recommended 1% pay rise.

One single effing percent - inflation is currently 1.6% and midwifes as with all other NHS staff, have not had a pay rise for three years.

The strike is about the greedy government refusing to accept the independent pay board recommendations, they are not asking for a lot, the governments actions are the final straw after 4 years of confrontation between the professional bodies of the NHS and the government.

The government will not listen to the public, they will not listen to the Royal Colleges, or the BMA or anyone else, but not to worry, 7 more months.


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jeevesnwooster
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The guy talks of Italian style corporate fascism, with everyone having a supposed stake in the economy. (btw if you're referencing Japan as well, perhaps notice that Kapan has effed up and its economy is now in the ****ter. )

What's not so good for pregnant women is the coalition government, don't worry about a strike for a single day in over 100 years, worry about the cuts to hospital departments

One example close to me: Eastbourne Hospital's maternity unit has been shelved, leading to patients having to use Conquest Hospital in St Leonards which is 4-5 miles away. Many women have already come close to losing their babies because of this disgusting cut.

Lay the blame where it really belongs: not with those who work on the frontline to keep the NHS going
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Sep 30 2014, 05:51 PM
Thank heavens the days of over manned slow methods of production on clapped out machinery way past their sell by dates are gone,
The slow methods of production on clapped out machinery haven't gone, they are propped up by low wages.
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krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 06:16 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .
Midwives will go on strike for the first time as part of concerted industrial action by NHS staff over the government’s rejection of a recommended 1% pay rise.

One single effing percent - inflation is currently 1.6% and midwifes as with all other NHS staff, have not had a pay rise for three years.

The strike is about the greedy government refusing to accept the independent pay board recommendations, they are not asking for a lot, the governments actions are the final straw after 4 years of confrontation between the professional bodies of the NHS and the government.

The government will not listen to the public, they will not listen to the Royal Colleges, or the BMA or anyone else, but not to worry, 7 more months.




Her and her colleagues' problem is that there are literally millions of people out there who have had either no raise at all or a pay cut.
When the person who had a pay cut a few years ago (and hasnt had a rise since )has an appointment cancelled they may well lose a little sympathy .
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Sep 30 2014, 06:19 PM
Stan Still
Sep 30 2014, 05:51 PM
Thank heavens the days of over manned slow methods of production on clapped out machinery way past their sell by dates are gone,
The slow methods of production on clapped out machinery haven't gone, they are propped up by low wages.
Perhaps you could tell the forum when you were last in full time work and experienced such a method, if you can remember that far back  ::)
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Stan Still
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gansao
Sep 30 2014, 06:21 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 06:16 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .
Midwives will go on strike for the first time as part of concerted industrial action by NHS staff over the government’s rejection of a recommended 1% pay rise.

One single effing percent - inflation is currently 1.6% and midwifes as with all other NHS staff, have not had a pay rise for three years.

The strike is about the greedy government refusing to accept the independent pay board recommendations, they are not asking for a lot, the governments actions are the final straw after 4 years of confrontation between the professional bodies of the NHS and the government.

The government will not listen to the public, they will not listen to the Royal Colleges, or the BMA or anyone else, but not to worry, 7 more months.




Her and her colleagues' problem is that there are literally millions of people out there who have had either no raise at all or a pay cut.
When the person who had a pay cut a few years ago (and hasnt had a rise since )has an appointment cancelled they may well lose a little sympathy .
One should also bear in mind that less then half of those eligible to vote 49.4% actually voiced their opinion on strike action, I one should also consider that it is highly likely that not all midwifes are members of a union.
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Tytoalba
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When push comes to shove, {is that appropriate}who will actually go on strk?
Its a careing profession, and thousands of women will now be afraid for their own and their childs wellfare if their pregnancy is due on the appropriate dates. They are hardly in a position to stop the process or to chose another place and time.
Put yourself in the position of a pregnant woman , perhaps with problems needing expert attention, and then give your support to the proposed strike.
It is just blackmail of the worst kind.
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krugerman
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gansao
Sep 30 2014, 06:21 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 06:16 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .
Midwives will go on strike for the first time as part of concerted industrial action by NHS staff over the government’s rejection of a recommended 1% pay rise.

One single effing percent - inflation is currently 1.6% and midwifes as with all other NHS staff, have not had a pay rise for three years.

The strike is about the greedy government refusing to accept the independent pay board recommendations, they are not asking for a lot, the governments actions are the final straw after 4 years of confrontation between the professional bodies of the NHS and the government.

The government will not listen to the public, they will not listen to the Royal Colleges, or the BMA or anyone else, but not to worry, 7 more months.




Her and her colleagues' problem is that there are literally millions of people out there who have had either no raise at all or a pay cut.
When the person who had a pay cut a few years ago (and hasnt had a rise since )has an appointment cancelled they may well lose a little sympathy .
Is there something that you do not understand ?

The midwifes had their pay frozen from and including 2011, that is now four years of no pay increase, but no complaints by the Royal College, probably because they accept that public finances were, and still are in a mess.

It was the independent pay review board which recommended to the government, that NHS workers shoul this year be entitled to below inflation rise of just 1%, the government refused to accept the pay recommendation - it is this fact that has angered nurses.

Its really down to whether you believe that nurses should be given a small, below inflation pay rise after enduring pay freezes for so long, I do believe they should, and you clearly side with the government - they do not deserve a modest rise.





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krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 06:49 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 06:21 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 06:16 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM

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Midwives will go on strike for the first time as part of concerted industrial action by NHS staff over the government’s rejection of a recommended 1% pay rise.

One single effing percent - inflation is currently 1.6% and midwifes as with all other NHS staff, have not had a pay rise for three years.

The strike is about the greedy government refusing to accept the independent pay board recommendations, they are not asking for a lot, the governments actions are the final straw after 4 years of confrontation between the professional bodies of the NHS and the government.

The government will not listen to the public, they will not listen to the Royal Colleges, or the BMA or anyone else, but not to worry, 7 more months.




Her and her colleagues' problem is that there are literally millions of people out there who have had either no raise at all or a pay cut.
When the person who had a pay cut a few years ago (and hasnt had a rise since )has an appointment cancelled they may well lose a little sympathy .
Is there something that you do not understand ?

The midwifes had their pay frozen from and including 2011, that is now four years of no pay increase, but no complaints by the Royal College, probably because they accept that public finances were, and still are in a mess.

It was the independent pay review board which recommended to the government, that NHS workers shoul this year be entitled to below inflation rise of just 1%, the government refused to accept the pay recommendation - it is this fact that has angered nurses.

Its really down to whether you believe that nurses should be given a small, below inflation pay rise after enduring pay freezes for so long, I do believe they should, and you clearly side with the government - they do not deserve a modest rise.







No but there seems to be something that you do not understand.
The point is NOT that I should believe that nurses deserve more pay.
The point is that nurses will inconvenience many people that have also had no pay rise, the same pay rise as the nurses or a pay cut without a pay rise to offset it.This will inevitably result in the loss of sympathy to the nurses strike.
Now if you still cannot understand the post I suggest you get some else to look at it and tell you.
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Rich
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gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .


The way I understand it is that the midwives can have either a 1% pay rise or a rise based on length of service but not both and this is why they are going on strike.
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Rich
Sep 30 2014, 08:15 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 05:53 PM
krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 05:34 PM
gansao
Sep 30 2014, 03:48 PM
I dont think that the public has the respect and admiration for nurse as you think. If there is a single casualty due to actions of nurses the ' angel' delusion will evaporate very quickly.
I think you are wrong

The public are aware that every professional body in the NHS was and is against the Health & Social Care Bill.

A majority of the public do not want to see health care been privatized, they are also aware that David Cameron told the country that "there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS", obviously he lied.

The public are also aware that many services have deteriorated, more and more people are now waiting longer to see a doctor.

I have always believed that the NHS will be a key factor in the next election, and the game is allready up for the Tories, people want the NHS kept in public hands, no profiteering, and no sell off, the only way Cameron can now get back public confidence, is to repeal the Health & Social Care Bill and promise "No sell off" of services.

The professional bodies and unions have guaranteed that all emergency care will be covered, and that all other routine, no-essential tasks will be abandoned through forthcoming strike action, I rather suspect the public will have much sympathy.


The OP claims that the midwives are going on strike because they want more money, not to stop the privatisation of the NHS or to oppose the loss or deterioration of services so lets not pretend that the proposed strike is for altruistic reasons.
I rather suspect that the public will have sympathy with the nurses until they or members of their families are inconvenienced by the action.
The strike will have no impact on the government if it has no discernible impact on the public , yet if it has an impact on the public the public will become less supportive of the nurses.
In reality this is a gesture that will cost nurses money .


The way I understand it is that the midwives can have either a 1% pay rise or a rise based on length of service but not both and this is why they are going on strike.


Indeed but they are not the only people who has wages that have stagnated or even been cut without a prospect of wage rise soon.
I do not doubt that nurses deserve a rise but they are going on strike for higher wages and will inconvenience people who have the same problem but not the means to address it. If they inconvenience enough people in this situation they will lose sympathy and if anyone is hurt by it they will lose support altogether. The most probable outcome of this strike is that they will lose money to gain nothing.
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krugerman
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The old Tory trick of using the "it will inconvenience people" will not work

The public know very well that all nurses have been kicked in the teeth, midwifes work hard, they are underpaid and play a vital role in society, furthermore, they will not put at risk or endanger the health or safety of any mother or child.

This story is putting the Tories in a very bad light, especially as another independent pay review board recommended MP s got a staggering 11% rise, which MP s have not refused to accept, the double standards are beyond belief.

If you were a midwife, what would you do ?

How could you make your feelings be known WITHOUT taking industrial action ?, how would you feel if an independent board had recommended a small, modest pay rise, and the government refused to accept the recommendation, would you be angry. ?

I have found out this evening that the Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association (of which members of my family belong ) are going to do something called "ASOS" which means action short of strike.

The hospital consultants and specialists will be joining hundreds of thousands of other NHS workers in taking action during the week commencing 13th October, and will include :

1. Take all the breaks to which they are entitled and scheduled
2. Work to their job plan
3. Decline any extra duties outside their job plan hours
4. Decline any new activities, which are not already in their job plan
5. Decline to do any extra clinics/theatre lists for waiting list initiatives

This used to be called "working to rule", and I can asure you that will will cause chaos for NHS managers, my wife is supposed to finish at 5pm ( if not on call ), as I type this post, she is driving home now, and its 9.30 pm, this happens frequently, but it wont be happening that particular week.



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jeevesnwooster
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Work-to-rule strikes can be more effective than normal strikes, if done properly. All tactics that will WORK - are opposed by the Union Bureaucrats, who are in the pockets of the corrupt State.

I am sick and tired of watching strikes follow a rehearsed formula and I am sick and tired of the propaganda against Unionists in the 1970's and 80's.

The 'widespread abuse' that people talk about from the 1970's was mostly perpetrated BY THE UNION BUREAUCRACY ITSELF. The greed and nastiness was apparent from the outset, workers can't necessarily be blamed for the stupidity of Shop Stewards in enforcing petty regulations and making people go out on strike over minor disputes.

All the best strikes in history, with the most honest aims have either been unofficial, wildcat strikes, work-to-rule strikes or things far more creative than the grey suits of the Union Bureaucracy would want you to think of. Label me as a communist or anything you like, but I just want what is best for people being treated like crap, working in our most treasured institutions, that's all
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krugerman
Sep 30 2014, 08:31 PM
The old Tory trick of using the "it will inconvenience people" will not work

The public know very well that all nurses have been kicked in the teeth, midwifes work hard, they are underpaid and play a vital role in society, furthermore, they will not put at risk or endanger the health or safety of any mother or child.

This story is putting the Tories in a very bad light, especially as another independent pay review board recommended MP s got a staggering 11% rise, which MP s have not refused to accept, the double standards are beyond belief.

If you were a midwife, what would you do ?

How could you make your feelings be known WITHOUT taking industrial action ?, how would you feel if an independent board had recommended a small, modest pay rise, and the government refused to accept the recommendation, would you be angry. ?

I have found out this evening that the Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association (of which members of my family belong ) are going to do something called "ASOS" which means action short of strike.

The hospital consultants and specialists will be joining hundreds of thousands of other NHS workers in taking action during the week commencing 13th October, and will include :

1. Take all the breaks to which they are entitled and scheduled
2. Work to their job plan
3. Decline any extra duties outside their job plan hours
4. Decline any new activities, which are not already in their job plan
5. Decline to do any extra clinics/theatre lists for waiting list initiatives

This used to be called "working to rule", and I can asure you that will will cause chaos for NHS managers, my wife is supposed to finish at 5pm ( if not on call ), as I type this post, she is driving home now, and its 9.30 pm, this happens frequently, but it wont be happening that particular week.





Oh dear' the old tory trick' ffs. Dont try to get out of a simple and real dilemma by using ad hominem to the person that pointed it out.

If you cant understand that action by nurses will ' inconvenience' people who have the same problems with THEIR income but no means to address it then you are seriously deluded.
You can point out that it is modest pay rise, that the nurses have been kicked in the teeth , work hard and play a vital role in the community all you want but there are many other people who have been kicked in the teeth, work hard and play a vital role in the community that do not have the backing to take industrial action for a modest wage rise.
What you are depending on is that the public( who have appointments cancelled or postponed) hold the nurses in so much esteem that they will be willing to support them to get something that they cannot.
You may get this support for a while but IMO the public will not support the nurses long enough for them to force the government to give them more.
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jeevesnwooster
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And while I'm on my union bashing crusade (I expect to be inundated with criticism universally for this, bring it on) I thouight I'd chuck this in:

Arthur Scargill and the NUM sabotaged the miner's strike from within, while Arthur got away with it all and now has a lovely house and loads of money, over 50% of towns up and down the country remain impoverished by the devastation of the sudden closure of the mines.

Had the government of the time, at the very least, worked hard to find new jobs for the ex-miners and new ways of stimulating the local economy instead of PURPOSFULLY working out a method of "managed decline" (an actual phrase used by the Thatcher administration, horrifying to the core if you ask me), the outcome and legacy may have been very different.

Instead, rampant greed and corruption from all those with power, whether in Unions or in Government or elsewhere, has destroyed the very social fabric that used to live and breathe in communities up and down the country.
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jeevesnwooster
Sep 30 2014, 08:56 PM
And while I'm on my union bashing crusade (I expect to be inundated with criticism universally for this, bring it on) I thouight I'd chuck this in:

Arthur Scargill and the NUM sabotaged the miner's strike from within, while Arthur got away with it all and now has a lovely house and loads of money, over 50% of towns up and down the country remain impoverished by the devastation of the sudden closure of the mines.

Had the government of the time, at the very least, worked hard to find new jobs for the ex-miners and new ways of stimulating the local economy instead of PURPOSFULLY working out a method of "managed decline" (an actual phrase used by the Thatcher administration, horrifying to the core if you ask me), the outcome and legacy may have been very different.

Instead, rampant greed and corruption from all those with power, whether in Unions or in Government or elsewhere, has destroyed the very social fabric that used to live and breathe in communities up and down the country.


You correct in both posts. The governments and unions saw themselves in a war and neither had too much regards for the soldiers fighting it.
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Affa
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jeevesnwooster
Sep 30 2014, 08:41 PM
All tactics that will WORK - are opposed by the Union Bureaucrats, who are in the pockets of the corrupt State.



Amazing!
I've seen this in print before ......... but only when I've written it.

Can there be more of us?


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RJD
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Funny how support is given without first understanding the details of the complaint. Where is the information on which they based such a decision?
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papasmurf
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RJD
Oct 1 2014, 07:33 AM
. Where is the information on which they based such a decision?
On the Royal College of Midwives website. I have already provided a link.
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