Forked tongue?

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Forked tongue?
Topic Started: Oct 2 2014, 07:14 AM (3,885 Views)
RJD	Oct 2 2014, 07:14 AM Post #1
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Quote: Iain Duncan Smith’s disclosure that the teething problems have been resolved and that the Universal Credits system will be rolled out across the country ahead of the election was momentous. Many critics, not just on the Left, cheerfully predicted that Mr Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms would fail. They are now irreversible, and as a result Mr Cameron’s Coalition will be able to claim a place among Britain’s great reforming governments. Well considered the claims made in the lefty Press, bloggers and here one would think he has not a snowball in Hell's chance of achieving that objective. We will see if he meets his milestone, but he is correct in one claim and that is no future Gov. is going to unpick this system and as a consequence he will be able to claim he inflicted the reform welcomed by the vast majority, the next step for a new Gov. must be to make further inroads against those barriers to making work always a first choice.

Replies:
jeevesnwooster	Oct 2 2014, 07:25 PM Post #41
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:23 PM I am for my achievements in life you arrogant arse , as for face book I do not access it far to many weird vane full of themselves use it in my opinion, but her quote did not come up on line no idea why it was in the media the other day I read it Arrogant? When it's you openly and proudly showing off your ignorance to all and sundry? You must be doubly proud of yourself then I guess being ignorant would be a big achievement to you



disgruntled porker	Oct 2 2014, 07:26 PM Post #42
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Alberich Oct 2 2014, 01:04 PM IDS is merely doing what Blair would have done through Frank Fields, had he the courage. Aye, and if my auntie had testicles, she'd be my uncle!



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 07:26 PM Post #43
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	papasmurf Oct 2 2014, 07:20 PM Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:16 PM You just voiced your opinion that she is mentally ill, any chance that you know exactly what form of mental illness she suffers from, and if so who told you It isn't an opinion of mine it was a DWP decision makers decision. No answer yet again to a direct question how unexpected, I will try again how do you know she suffers from a mental illness, and what form of mental illness is it



papasmurf	Oct 2 2014, 07:29 PM Post #44
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:26 PM No answer yet again to a direct question how unexpected, I will try again how do you know she suffers from a mental illness, and what form of mental illness is it I repeat it was a DWP decision makers decision as that is the only way you can get ESA on mental health grounds. What her mental illness is, is none of my business and none of your business.



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 07:30 PM Post #45
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:25 PM Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:23 PM I am for my achievements in life you arrogant arse , as for face book I do not access it far to many weird vane full of themselves use it in my opinion, but her quote did not come up on line no idea why it was in the media the other day I read it Arrogant? When it's you openly and proudly showing off your ignorance to all and sundry? You must be doubly proud of yourself then I guess being ignorant would be a big achievement to you I am not surprised you have access to Facebook and probably Twitter I really am not surprised, please tell me they don't let you vote



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 07:31 PM Post #46
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	papasmurf Oct 2 2014, 07:29 PM Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:26 PM No answer yet again to a direct question how unexpected, I will try again how do you know she suffers from a mental illness, and what form of mental illness is it I repeat it was a DWP decision makers decision as that is the only way you can get ESA on mental health grounds. What her mental illness is, is none of my business and none of your business. A quick you don't know again would have been sufficient and more honest, your propaganda is worse than the Mails, I can see through theirs as well



jeevesnwooster	Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Post #47
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail



disgruntled porker	Oct 2 2014, 07:35 PM Post #48
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	What part of being assessed by medical professionals and being found to have mental problems don't you understand Stan?



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 07:43 PM Post #49
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	disgruntled porker Oct 2 2014, 07:35 PM What part of being assessed by medical professionals and being found to have mental problems don't you understand Stan? If fully understand it but Papapsmurf likes to hint he has access to information others do not therefore talks in riddles not plain language , if I ever understand Papasmurf I will asked to be assessed myself, What he was suggesting as see is too ill to form an and voice an opinion about herself and her life Edited by Stan Still, Oct 2 2014, 07:44 PM.



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 07:47 PM Post #50
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail It could be worse the Mirror Guardian and the Star, what fantastic papers they are



papasmurf	Oct 2 2014, 08:00 PM Post #51
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:31 PM A quick you don't know again would have been sufficient and more honest, your propaganda is worse than the Mails, I can see through theirs as well I am not engaged in propaganda. ALL that anyone knows which has been public domain for some time is that she is (or rather was) on ESA on mental health grounds. If I did have access to her mental health assessments for some legitimate reason and gobbed off about in on an internet forum I would be quite rightly liable to some serious criminal charges.



Stan Still	Oct 2 2014, 08:20 PM Post #52
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Took you long enough to speak plainly and get some common sense about allegations you have made in here in the public domain, as for propaganda yours never stop you even believe it yourself. Edited by Stan Still, Oct 2 2014, 08:20 PM.



Tigger	Oct 2 2014, 08:49 PM Post #53
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Oct 2 2014, 07:14 AM Quote: Iain Duncan Smith’s disclosure that the teething problems have been resolved and that the Universal Credits system will be rolled out across the country ahead of the election was momentous. Many critics, not just on the Left, cheerfully predicted that Mr Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms would fail. They are now irreversible, and as a result Mr Cameron’s Coalition will be able to claim a place among Britain’s great reforming governments. Well considered the claims made in the lefty Press, bloggers and here one would think he has not a snowball in Hell's chance of achieving that objective. We will see if he meets his milestone, but he is correct in one claim and that is no future Gov. is going to unpick this system and as a consequence he will be able to claim he inflicted the reform welcomed by the vast majority, the next step for a new Gov. must be to make further inroads against those barriers to making work always a first choice. More opinion passed of as fact, that's about your limit these days.



jeevesnwooster	Oct 2 2014, 08:50 PM Post #54
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:47 PM jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail It could be worse the Mirror Guardian and the Star, what fantastic papers they are You prefer the Daily Mail to the Guardian? nuff said



Affa	Oct 2 2014, 08:50 PM Post #55
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail As it happens, the Daily Mail does carry the story, and does include the actual quote (as is posted here) in the article - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561641/White-Dee-accuses-Channel-4-unfair-depiction-life-Benefits-Street.html



jeevesnwooster	Oct 2 2014, 08:51 PM Post #56
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Someone has been smacked in the face with the truth fair and square after making up quotes, it really is hilarious what the right-wing brigade will come out with to try and justify the unjustifiable EDIT: Lol @ the daily mail carrying the truth for once, it seems irony strikes back Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 2 2014, 08:52 PM.



Steve K	Oct 3 2014, 07:22 PM Post #57
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Oct 2 2014, 01:33 PM Alberich Oct 2 2014, 01:04 PM IDS is merely doing what Blair would have done through Frank Fields, had he the courage. It would be difficult to find ANY British politician as incompetent and who has lied as much as Iain Duncan Smith has. . . . well we have your word for that don't we Admit it, you don't actually know what the word "lie" means do you. Certainly not from that overlong post #2 you don't. It does not mean to omit to say something, it does not mean to accidentally get your words wrong, it does not mean to say something you believe is true that later turns out to not be true. It means something said or written when known to be untrue. Like calling someone a liar because you don't like them could well be a lie itself. Or posting an image of someone photoshopped onto a nazi uniform - now I wonder who would do a shit thing like that? IDS may be an inept prat with an inflated view of himself but you have never shown him to be a liar. Edited by Steve K, Oct 3 2014, 07:24 PM.



papasmurf	Oct 3 2014, 07:59 PM Post #58
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 07:22 PM well we have your word for that don't we Actually you have the DWPs OWN references PROVING he is an (expletive deleted) liar, which I posted and quoted earlier in the thread. He lied at the Conservative party during his speech which was transmitted live on BBC Parliament. It is why I am submitting formal complaint about it. Iain Duncan Smith announced yet another slowdown of the rollout of universal credit to the Conservative conference yesterday, but managed to make it sound like a success by omitting just two vital words from his speech. Whether he actually lied or was just deeply misleading is for the reader to decide. In a speech that verged at times on the messianic, http://press.conservatives.com/post/98728606860/iain-duncan-smith-speech-to-conservative-party but failed to refer at any point to massive waiting times for PIP and ESA medicals, Iain Duncan Smith announced that the roll out of universal credit was to be accelerated. He told conference that: “Universal Credit has now rolled out in the North West of England – to couples, shortly to families, to more than 1 in 8 jobcentres by Christmas – safely and securely as we always said. “But, Conference, today I can announce more. “I can announce that we are going to accelerate the delivery of Universal Credit… “… from the New Year, bringing forward the national roll-out through 2015/16 to every community across Great Britain.” The only problem with this was the two vital words missing from IDS’ speech, but present in the DWP press release – https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-for-accelerated-rollout-of-universal-credit-after-success-in-north-west the roll out will only be for ‘single jobseekers’. In other words: not for couples; not for families; not for people in work; not for people too sick and disabled to work. In fact, only for the smallest and simplest group of universal credit claimants for whom no complex software is required at all. This is not a rollout or universal credit at all, it is the rollout of ‘universal credit lite’ to a fraction of the 8 million people who are supposed to be going to be moved onto it. IDS went on to say: “Secure national delivery… yet at the same time, delivering life change at a local level: “strengthening community partnerships, helping vulnerable households… “… getting people into a job quicker and staying in work longer… “… not just helping the economy but reducing child poverty as well. “Bringing up to £35 billion in economic benefits to Britain over the next decade… “… making a lasting difference to people’s lives… “… now and for generations to come. “Friends – Universal Credit is going nationwide – we are going to finish what we started.” In truth, the national rollout will not affect ‘vulnerable households’ because it’s only for single claimants. It also won’t reduce ‘child poverty’ because it’s only for single claimants. And ‘universal credit’ isn’t going nationwide, only a small fraction of it is. So, was this a straightforward lie or just weasel words? We leave you, the reader, to make up your own mind. But here’s one final piece of evidence. In his ministerial statement on 5 December 2013 – which has mysteriously disappeared from the parliament website - http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wms/?id=2013-12-05a.65WS.1 “These steps continue our progressive approach—test, learn, implement—as we deliver this flagship programme. IDS announced the revised timetable for the rollout of universal credit, which was itself a massive slowdown from the original plan. The document is deliberately vague about the timetable, but it does state: “Meanwhile, we will expand our current pathfinder service and develop functionality so that from next summer we progressively start to take claims for universal credit from couples and, in the autumn, from families. Once safely tested in the 10 live universal credit areas, we will also expand the roll-out to cover more of the north-west of England. This will enable us to learn from the live running of universal credit at scale and for more claimant types, including the more vulnerable and complex. “Our current planning assumption is that the universal credit service will be fully available in each part of Great Britain during 2016, having closed down new claims to the legacy benefits it replaced; with the majority of the remaining legacy case load moving to universal credit during 2016 and 2017.” So, the most recent plan was to run full versions of universal credit – including for ‘the more vulnerable and more complex’ claimants - in the north west of England and then expand out across the country. Now, it seems, only the simplest of claims will have been rolled out across the country by April 2016. There is then absolutely no possibility whatsoever of a ‘test, learn, implement’ rollout of the massively more complex full universal credit across the whole country by the end of 2016. So what IDS was announcing sounds very much to us like another setback for the rollout of universal credit. The reality is that there is absolutely no evidence that IDS, Freud and their wealthy friends are ‘going to finish what we started’ in 2017, or indeed at any time in the next decade. Edited by papasmurf, Oct 3 2014, 08:02 PM.



Steve K	Oct 3 2014, 08:08 PM Post #59
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	As I said you do not know what a 'lie' is do you. Not an effin clue in fact even when it is spelt out for you. IQ of 142? yes of course



papasmurf	Oct 3 2014, 08:34 PM Post #60
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:08 PM As I said you do not know what a 'lie' is do you. Not an effin clue in fact even when it is spelt out for you. IQ of 142? yes of course If stating a fully operational Universal System is being rolled out next year when the DWP own reports on it state that will only apply to single people for the foreseeable future is not a lie, do tell what it is if it isn't a huge porky pie.



Steve K	Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Post #61
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:34 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:08 PM As I said you do not know what a 'lie' is do you. Not an effin clue in fact even when it is spelt out for you. IQ of 142? yes of course If stating a fully operational Universal System is being rolled out next year when the DWP own reports on it state that will only apply to single people for the foreseeable future is not a lie, do tell what it is if it isn't a huge porky pie. well from your own post #2 what he actually said was “… from the New Year, bringing forward the national roll-out through 2015/16 to every community across Great Britain.” Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. strikes again?



papasmurf	Oct 3 2014, 08:46 PM Post #62
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. He implied it which is the same as lying.



Steve K	Oct 3 2014, 09:53 PM Post #63
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:46 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. He implied it which is the same as lying. No it is not, very much not. So much so that that ^ is far more of a lie.



papasmurf	Oct 3 2014, 10:09 PM Post #64
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 09:53 PM No it is not, very much not. It is given the audience were convinced it was the whole package being rolled out nationally when it is not. It does not matter who wins the election when it comes to Universal Credit someone will have to sort out the dogs breakfast IDS has made of that and all the other "welfare reforms" he has made a Horlicks of. The real disaster when it inevitably all goes tits up is millions of people could be left with no benefit at all because of the systems collapse. (Yet another person who was employed to sort the massive IT cock-up out has walked away.) http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/public-sector/3574384/universal-credit-to-get-seventh-chief-in-two-years/ Universal Credit to get seventh chief in two years Current work services director Neil Couling to take over from external appointee Howard Shiplee By Charlotte Jee \| Computerworld UK \| Published 11:45, 30 September 14 The troubled benefit reform project Universal Credit is to get its seventh boss since its launch in 2012. The Department for Work and Pensions’ (DWP) has said its work services director Neil Couling will take over leadership of the project, which aims to merge six benefits into one single monthly payment. Work and Pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith thanked current leader Howard Shiplee, who has led the project since 2013, in a statement and said: “Howard has always been clear that, as the programme moves into national delivery, the programme must be led by someone with strong operational experience. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when Howard Shiplee told IDS which orifice to stick his job up.



Affa	Oct 4 2014, 12:10 AM Post #65
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 09:53 PM papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:46 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. He implied it which is the same as lying. No it is not, very much not. So much so that that ^ is far more of a lie. Not that I want to change the topic, but I am curious - what's your view on whether Blair lied about WMDs, the 45 minute question, or intelligence reports? Did he lie - Yes or No. Do remind yourself that IDS was the leader of the opposition at the time. I would not try to lead you into appearing hypocritical in this.



disgruntled porker	Oct 6 2014, 09:58 AM Post #66
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:34 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:08 PM As I said you do not know what a 'lie' is do you. Not an effin clue in fact even when it is spelt out for you. IQ of 142? yes of course If stating a fully operational Universal System is being rolled out next year when the DWP own reports on it state that will only apply to single people for the foreseeable future is not a lie, do tell what it is if it isn't a huge porky pie. well from your own post #2 what he actually said was “… from the New Year, bringing forward the national roll-out through 2015/16 to every community across Great Britain.” Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. strikes again? There is a big difference between fully operational and partially operational. Surely that is a pretty unescapable fact? Or perhaps it's a case of being economical with the truth? Edited by disgruntled porker, Oct 6 2014, 10:01 AM.



papasmurf	Oct 6 2014, 10:30 AM Post #67
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	disgruntled porker Oct 6 2014, 09:58 AM There is a big difference between fully operational and partially operational. Surely that is a pretty unescapable fact? Or perhaps it's a case of being economical with the truth? Quite, currently there is NO full implementation of Universal Credit anywhere not even in a pilot. There is unlikely to be a full roll out for all of even most categories of claimant ever. (Not with real time updating that is certainty.)



Deleted User	Oct 6 2014, 10:41 AM Post #68
Deleted User	Affa Oct 4 2014, 12:10 AM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 09:53 PM papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:46 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. He implied it which is the same as lying. No it is not, very much not. So much so that that ^ is far more of a lie. Not that I want to change the topic, but I am curious - what's your view on whether Blair lied about WMDs, the 45 minute question, or intelligence reports? Did he lie - Yes or No. Do remind yourself that IDS was the leader of the opposition at the time. I would not try to lead you into appearing hypocritical in this. We still don't know for certain whether Blair lied or not. Secretive government, irrespective of which party is in power, sums up our parliamentary system and deprives the electorate of the facts. Sometimes the secrecy is justified and sometimes not. It is hardly credible to believe Blair did not lie to Parliament but I can't prove that he did! There is a world of difference between believing and knowing something beyond doubt. A number of the 'Usuals' are very fond of accusing Conservative politicians of lying. Unfortunately many politicians from all parties can be economical with the truth. My own view is that if a Minister makes a statement of intent based on the situation and facts as he genuinely believes them to be, and those facts or the situation subsequently changes thus preventing the intent to be honoured then the Minister may be guilty of varying degrees of misjudgement but can not legitimately be accused of lying. For instance both Clegg and Cameron have been widely accused of lying by reneging on 'promises' or statements of intent in their respective manifestos. However those manifestos were drafted and agreed to on the basis of a single party majority government and not a Coalition. Neither were therefore, in my view, lying.
Deleted User


C-too	Oct 6 2014, 10:43 AM Post #69
Honourable Member Posts: 17,686 Group: Members Member #49 Joined: Jul 12, 2014	Affa Oct 4 2014, 12:10 AM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 09:53 PM papasmurf Oct 3 2014, 08:46 PM Steve K Oct 3 2014, 08:43 PM Did he say "to every type of claimant in every community" ? Oh look he did not. Rather looks like you just imagined he did. He implied it which is the same as lying. No it is not, very much not. So much so that that ^ is far more of a lie. Not that I want to change the topic, but I am curious - what's your view on whether Blair lied about WMDs, the 45 minute question, or intelligence reports? Did he lie - Yes or No. Do remind yourself that IDS was the leader of the opposition at the time. I would not try to lead you into appearing hypocritical in this. Yes careful not to change the thread. BUT, Blair never claimed, in his own right, that Iraq had WMD. He claimed that he accepted the intelligence he received. Some years later the Intelligence agency admitted it got it wrong on WMD in Iraq. The 45 minutes was actual intelligence "from a previously reliable source", but was then found to be "uncorroborated" --- single sourced, so had to be dropped. It was also found that one person in the chain was unreliable. Edited by C-too, Oct 6 2014, 10:46 AM.



jeevesnwooster	Oct 6 2014, 12:31 PM Post #70
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Oh my god, did anyone see Nick Clegg on TV this morning? A good thrashing is what I'd describe it as. THe man is the only human invertebrae known to be walking! "If the Tories were to freeze working age benefits at the GE, would you enter in a new co. with them?" "long pause insincere look It's the principle that matters, not one policy or another.." Save it Clegg, save it for the same spineless, calculating right-wing scumbags who supported you and the coalition in 2010 when many opeople spat at you and shoved rubbish through your letterbox Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 6 2014, 12:32 PM.



Affa	Oct 6 2014, 01:38 PM Post #71
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Major Sinic Oct 6 2014, 10:41 AM We still don't know for certain whether Blair lied or not. ......... There is a world of difference between believing and knowing something beyond doubt. I said a simple Yes or No would do. I wasn't wanting to analyse it ..... but since you did - Hans Blix believed there were hidden WMDs, the UN security Coincil believed there were WMDs, even France believed there were WMDs. In fact nobody apart from Saddam himself disputed the opinion that he was hiding WMDs. AND that does include the Conservative Party, and the previous Conservative government. HANSARD has the record of JIC reports going back to the first Gulf War.



Deleted User	Oct 6 2014, 04:21 PM Post #72
Deleted User	Affa Oct 6 2014, 01:38 PM Major Sinic Oct 6 2014, 10:41 AM We still don't know for certain whether Blair lied or not. ......... There is a world of difference between believing and knowing something beyond doubt. I said a simple Yes or No would do. I wasn't wanting to analyse it ..... but since you did - Hans Blix believed there were hidden WMDs, the UN security Coincil believed there were WMDs, even France believed there were WMDs. In fact nobody apart from Saddam himself disputed the opinion that he was hiding WMDs. AND that does include the Conservative Party, and the previous Conservative government. HANSARD has the record of JIC reports going back to the first Gulf War. But a simple yes or no wouldn't do! I am so glad that you used the term believed rather than knew!
Deleted User


Steve K	Oct 6 2014, 04:34 PM Post #73
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Oct 4 2014, 12:10 AM Not that I want to change the topic, but I am curious - what's your view on whether Blair lied about WMDs, the 45 minute question, or intelligence reports? . . . Sorry Affa only just spotted that. And it is relevant as it runs to the core of posting I find disgusting, the reckless accusing someone of being a liar because the accuser is either an ignoramus of what the word means or just plain unprincipled. No one has ever shown Blair lied and I've always thought that as a trained barrister he'd be too smart to get caught lying. But he got it wrong and he should have robustly challenged what he was being told and certainly should have apologised. So less than an angel, far less but unlikely to have lied.



jeevesnwooster	Oct 6 2014, 04:41 PM Post #74
҈ Posts: 791 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Sep 6, 2014	Steve K Oct 6 2014, 04:34 PM Affa Oct 4 2014, 12:10 AM Not that I want to change the topic, but I am curious - what's your view on whether Blair lied about WMDs, the 45 minute question, or intelligence reports? . . . Sorry Affa only just spotted that. And it is relevant as it runs to the core of posting I find disgusting, the reckless accusing someone of being a liar because the accuser is either an ignoramus of what the word means or just plain unprincipled. No one has ever shown Blair lied and I've always thought that as a trained barrister he'd be too smart to get caught lying. But he got it wrong and he should have robustly challenged what he was being told and certainly should have apologised. So less than an angel, far less but unlikely to have lied. The lying or lack of it is almost secondary to me. Decondary to the lives of soldiers lost and civilians killed in a war started by the yanks, yet again Do you know what some people's justification is? We got loads of money from the yanks, we were funded for the war so we should be thankful, we got a good foot in the ME, we have strengthened our relationship with a strategic partner Soldier's lives for American money and influence, soldiers sign up to die at the behest of upper-class militarymen and we got some money for it, that's some people's arguments, I kid you not. Why do I find that even more despicable than WMD's or the lack of them?



Steve K	Oct 6 2014, 05:03 PM Post #75
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	What money "we got from the yanks"?



Stan Still	Oct 6 2014, 05:05 PM Post #76
Regular Member Posts: 1,705 Group: Members Member #23 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 08:50 PM Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:47 PM jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail It could be worse the Mirror Guardian and the Star, what fantastic papers they are You prefer the Daily Mail to the Guardian? nuff said I prefer the Times to all of the others



Steve K	Oct 6 2014, 05:14 PM Post #77
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Stan Still Oct 6 2014, 05:05 PM jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 08:50 PM Stan Still Oct 2 2014, 07:47 PM jeevesnwooster Oct 2 2014, 07:34 PM Better they let me use facebook than force me to sit and read every page in the daily mail It could be worse the Mirror Guardian and the Star, what fantastic papers they are You prefer the Daily Mail to the Guardian? nuff said I prefer the Times to all of the others the I isn't bad either imho



Lewis	Oct 6 2014, 05:31 PM Post #78
Senior Member Posts: 3,478 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Oct 2 2014, 07:44 AM Lewis Oct 2 2014, 07:37 AM RJD Oct 2 2014, 07:14 AM Quote: Iain Duncan Smith’s disclosure that the teething problems have been resolved and that the Universal Credits system will be rolled out across the country ahead of the election was momentous. Many critics, not just on the Left, cheerfully predicted that Mr Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms would fail. They are now irreversible, and as a result Mr Cameron’s Coalition will be able to claim a place among Britain’s great reforming governments. Well considered the claims made in the lefty Press, bloggers and here one would think he has not a snowball in Hell's chance of achieving that objective. We will see if he meets his milestone, but he is correct in one claim and that is no future Gov. is going to unpick this system and as a consequence he will be able to claim he inflicted the reform welcomed by the vast majority, the next step for a new Gov. must be to make further inroads against those barriers to making work always a first choice. Making the poorest in society poorer is not an achievement. Quite the opposite, a sign of a sick minded and pathetic government that deserves to get ousted. Time we had some decent people in power not some out of touch and vindictive elite! I suspect that you also do not own a Moral Compass as it cannot be right or moral to design a system of welfare such that it entraps. It is also unacceptable that those that can work are not encouraged to do so, for them a State Pension for Life cannot and should not be an option. Nothing vindictive here only your small narrow minded dogma. One trusts that you have a verifiable reference, that you can publish to back up your narrow minded dogma! Just who are the people the system entraps? One would have thought that IDSs so-called botched reforms were in themselves a form of entrapment. However as it appears you have access to your incompetent parties inner secrets given that you are a Tory Central Office stooge, maybe you can enlighten us? We await your erudite musings with anticipation!



disgruntled porker	Oct 6 2014, 06:40 PM Post #79
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	jeevesnwooster Oct 6 2014, 12:31 PM Oh my god, did anyone see Nick Clegg on TV this morning? A good thrashing is what I'd describe it as. THe man is the only human invertebrae known to be walking! "If the Tories were to freeze working age benefits at the GE, would you enter in a new co. with them?" "long pause insincere look It's the principle that matters, not one policy or another.." Save it Clegg, save it for the same spineless, calculating right-wing scumbags who supported you and the coalition in 2010 when many opeople spat at you and shoved rubbish through your letterbox It seems that Vince is a little more certain of his feelings on this one.



Gnikkk	Oct 11 2014, 07:00 AM Post #80
Regular Member Posts: 1,162 Group: Members Member #45 Joined: Jul 5, 2014	I have little sympathy for poor people, perhaps they should have tried harder at school.



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