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| Thatcher was to call Labour and miners ‘enemy within’ in abandoned speech; Former PM planned to say party had been hijacked by ‘enemies of democracy’ but rewrote speech after 1984 Brighton bomb | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 3 2014, 09:11 AM (925 Views) | |
| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 09:11 AM Post #1 |
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/thatcher-labour-miners-enemy-within-brighton-bomb "The 1984 Brighton bomb forced Margaret Thatcher to tear up what would have been the most divisive speech of her premiership, in which she planned to accuse not only militant miners but the entire Labour party of being “the enemy within” and part of an “insurrection” against democracy." She found out that the IRA were the real danger in terms of actual attacks, not the working man nor the spineless jellies in Labour both of whom she shoved over with relative ease Anyone remember the time the IRA nearly assassinated John Major in 1991 with the mortar attack on downing street? The people who threaten the establishment, are those want to be part of the establishment |
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| Heinrich | Oct 3 2014, 09:55 AM Post #2 |
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The late "Baroness" did not need to make that speech. Actions speak louder than words and everyone knew the Thatcherites then, like the Tories today, despised the English working class. |
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| RJD | Oct 3 2014, 12:18 PM Post #3 |
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What a load of tripe. The only loathing is the self loathing that exists on the left of politics and that has it's origins in failure both personal and political. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 01:17 PM Post #4 |
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What a load of nonsense, self-loathing is rife among Tories. The working-class ones even change their accent to sound more posh |
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| Alberich | Oct 3 2014, 01:36 PM Post #5 |
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You need professional help, Bertie,old boy. Your postings have no reasoning, nor development....simply an unconnected spewing of bile. It's all so predictably pointless. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 01:51 PM Post #6 |
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I think possibly, by the unwarranted ad hom, the last post hit a nerve with one poster here, maybe it applies to them? |
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| Stan Still | Oct 3 2014, 04:59 PM Post #7 |
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The attempted murder of Thatcher was well planned and nearly succeeded, the attack on Major was not and came no where near him, the Mortars lobed in the direction of Downing Street were about as accurate as Hamas rockets fired today, they damage the property they hit or kill the unlucky they fall on. As for the Guardian raking up the past about something that was never said in sheer desperation again. I have always considered Scargill to be an enemy of the state along with the Labour Party back then, there is still grave suspicions of who they were working for funding them and who exactly was pulling their strings. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 05:13 PM Post #8 |
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The attack on Major was well planned, it was intended for Thatcher until she suddenly resigned, the Army Council sanctioned it some time before. Regardless, I recall reading an Army general talking about the ingenuity of the attack and the mortar not actually being that far off, where it landed is actually no indicator of that. Incomparable to Hamas rockets. The fact that Thatcher's speech remained private is neither here nor there, it tells us what she really thought. Scargill and the Labour party are enemies of the working-class, everyone is an enemy of the state as soon as it's convenient. Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 3 2014, 05:14 PM.
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| Stan Still | Oct 3 2014, 05:28 PM Post #9 |
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It was her opinion which died with her, I have voiced my opinion as I remember both attacks well and the Labour Party of yesteryear and nothing will change my opinion on them, and their modern day counterparts, I just wish all of them would emigrate to France. |
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| C-too | Oct 3 2014, 05:33 PM Post #10 |
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Judging from your post I think it is fair to assume you were in a coma between 1979 to 1990. Then woke up to a 'satisfactory' mass/high unemployment. Those (derogative ***&&ish) workers deserve no better. As the rich got richer and the poor gat poorer thanks to the nasty party. With many years of hindsight on those heartless and callous years, it is unbelievable that some people still cannot see it. |
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| C-too | Oct 3 2014, 05:35 PM Post #11 |
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And let the Tories emigrate to some banana republic in South America. Edited by C-too, Oct 3 2014, 05:36 PM.
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 07:12 PM Post #12 |
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They needn't go that far, they and labour successfully established a banana republic here
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 7 2014, 01:46 PM.
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| Deleted User | Oct 7 2014, 12:49 PM Post #13 |
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Over a third of the British electorate are Tory voters; they polled the most votes of any party in the 2010 GE. It is moronic to suggest that none of these voters are working class, or that they despise themselves. In ignorant post after ignorant post you display your complete lack of understanding of Britain and the British. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 7 2014, 12:55 PM Post #14 |
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Which quite frankly is a worry. If they were being told the truth of what is happening by the so called "free press," and the media in general, I suspect Tory support would wither away. |
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| Heinrich | Oct 7 2014, 01:08 PM Post #15 |
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I believe it is called the "Stockholm Syndrome". |
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| papasmurf | Oct 7 2014, 01:14 PM Post #16 |
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It is called being brainwashed by propaganda, which only works until reality of what is happening becomes obvious, and the general populations starts tripping over the reality on the pavement. Or the massively right wing media is forced to report it because it is so obvious. |
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| jaguar | Oct 7 2014, 06:01 PM Post #17 |
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Same old excuse, it's the media's fault, but your problem is, people ARE facing reality. They are well aware why we are in the dilemma we are all facing, and are well aware who caused it. When the electorate vote in the GE in 2015, the question will be, "who do you trust to get the UK back on it's feet", at the moment it's Cameron and Osborne, with 39% of voters say the prime minister and the chancellor, George Osborne, are the team they would most trust “to manage the economy properly”, compared with just 19% who say they would trust the opposition Labour leader, Ed Miliband and his shadow chancellor, Ed Balls. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-osborne-is-the-publics-favourite-politician--with-a-score-of-zero-9779764.html |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 7 2014, 06:06 PM Post #18 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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I am well aware of it The distance from "ground zero" to the site from which they launched their device is roughly half as much again as the distance from my back lawn to the 19th tee at the celtic f&cking manor which is why EVERY TIME they have a politicalfest in that shithole the road and grassy knolls around my house see more armed men per square foot than downtown f&cking Baghdad and I am getting REALLY f&cked off about it |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 7 2014, 06:16 PM Post #19 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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It IS a fact that Margaret Thatcher's government went out of its way to court "white van man of essex" as well as "pinstripe suoted bastard of godalming". But Margaret Thatcher's opponents had their electoral chances destroyed by having Michael Foot as their leader, a suicide note for a manifesto, and the gang of four stealing wehat used to be their middle ground support. Leaving her free to romp it. Similarly, while Blair lied and cheated his way to several return matches, look at what led HOS opposition. A yob in a hat on a lof flume, Iain Duncan "i know what to do with a pearl handled revolver" smith (i wish to god he had demonstrated his knowledge, as the working poor would be a lot better off without him) and a man about which there was far too much of the night. Such a shame then the party chose looks over graviyas when seeking michael howard's replacement. "Airbrushed Dave" is going to need a little more than photoshop this time round, I feel. |
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| krugerman | Oct 7 2014, 08:15 PM Post #20 |
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There was no single reason for the success of Margaret Thatcher as Conservative leader and PM, it was a multitude of reasons which all fell into place. The fact that Labour had become unelectable, too outdated, too socialist and stuck in the past The fact that millions of people felt that the unions were repeatedly wrecking the economy, had too much say, had too much power, and the feeling that they (the unions) were holding the country to ransom. The winter of discontent The character of a strong headed woman who seemed to offer a fresh start with fresh ideas It was Margaret Thatcher who brought to an end the Tory tradition of encompassing all of society and been inclusive, the days of compassionate Conservatism came to an end with Margaret Thatcher, even the grand old statesman of Harold Macmillan became critical, he knew that she was reactionary, her simple answer to the unions was - smash them. The fact is that politics is never simple, the left in this country became out of control in the 1970s, the unions made unreasonable demands, but Thatcher took over the reigns and created the complete opposite of her famous "Francis of Assisi speech", where she promised harmony, she created discord, where she promised hope, she brought despair. I would naturally criticise Margaret Thatcher because I am a Liberal at heart, and since 2010 am a Labour supporter, I hated the way she divided society, and the way in which she showed not an ounce of compassion for the many communities she destroyed, but as much as I hate to admit it, there were some aspects of her premiership I supported and approved of. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 7 2014, 08:30 PM Post #21 |
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Was she successful through abusing her power and ruling the country with an iron fist, only to be stabbed in the back by her own? As Tony Blair said, "god will be my judge"...I'm sure the same is true for the milk snatcher. I do wonder how controlled opposition really is in this country, I speculated about Labour evading the possibility of being elected..and I do wonder if the same wasn't true in the 1980's and for the Tories in the late-90's thru the 2000's. |
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| C-too | Oct 7 2014, 10:16 PM Post #22 |
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There is nothing in the history of the Tory party to suggest they can be trusted with the economy either. So even though the wrong brother won the leadership of the Labour party, it's still a case of Hobsons Choice. One of the major problems is that too many people ARE influenced by the media. |
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| C-too | Oct 7 2014, 10:22 PM Post #23 |
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Was self loathing the reason why millions of people were thrown out of work and forgotten about during the Thatcher period? Your ingrained bias does tend to make a fool of you. |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 7 2014, 10:40 PM Post #24 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Er no, but that is what she rather fancies doing and liz and phil saw right through her |
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| C-too | Oct 7 2014, 10:45 PM Post #25 |
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Despite high inflation the TUC came to an agreement with Jim Callahgan to restrict wage increases to 5%. The main problem was not unions per se, it was wildcat strikes and strike action taken by employees in different factories who ignored the union directives, that did most damage to the unions. They made the unions the perfect scapegoats for the decades of failure by the people with the real power, wealth and control. Having said that I have repeatedly given Thatcher credit for making wildcat strikes illegal and for making the unuions more responsible. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 7 2014, 10:54 PM Post #26 |
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Wildcat and solidarity strikes, flying pickets, mass pickets, strikes in certain industries all made illegal. "They made the unions the perfect scapegoats for the decades of failure by the people with the real power, wealth and control. " Then you give Thatcher credit, why? Solidarity, mass, wildcat strikes and mass and flying pickets are necessary sometimes, industry fat cats are known to do disgusting things. That 1972 builder's strike me and Steve K discussed - Ricky Tomlinson talked about more people dying in the building trade than in mines, that's not right. Something had to be done and the bosses were not listening. They (the strike leaders) were all imprisoned needless to say. Don't worry, Old Labour also used draconian measures to control strikes, Tony Benn famously sent in soldiers to suppress the national grid strike Oh well, expecting universal abuse for simply stating the truth again. The unions did abuse their power, I do agree with this, but it wasn't the workers it was the union bureaucracy getting as greedy as the politicians. Shop stewards pushed workers into action they didn't necessarily want to do in the late-70's and squabbled over minor disputes that some workers didn't even care about, or want any part of. IMO Scargill betrayed the miners. As usual, those with power abused it. Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 7 2014, 10:55 PM.
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| C-too | Oct 7 2014, 11:29 PM Post #27 |
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IMO unions have a very important part to play in protecting working people, but they are not an elected part of our democracy and they should not be allowed to take actions that are seriously damaging to the country. They do need to have guidelines for acting responsibly. |
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| Affa | Oct 8 2014, 12:15 AM Post #28 |
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The "Them & Us" attitude of British business, ably abetted by Conservative Governments (latterly Labour too) made for conflict in industrial relations. That leads to militancy, and militancy leads to militant leaders. = Scargill. Were business to be tolerant of worker representatives, to involve them in discussions on policy and efficiency drives, to get the best out for both, then the requirement on Unions is to get the best negotiators. The result being that moderate and those skilled in negotiations rise to lead the Union. Scargill was a product of the confrontational attitude of both business and government. It is typical of the right to create a monster (read Welfare dependency here), and then blame that monster for all the ills they face. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 8 2014, 12:39 AM Post #29 |
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What I'm about to say probly won't surprise you :P Nail on the head yet again
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| Tytoalba | Oct 8 2014, 10:55 AM Post #30 |
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Thank you for that Krugerman, for I do like to read a ballanced and heartfewlt post. , and not one driven by personal dogma. Sometimes in life we have to make hard decisions to solve major problems,both in government and in our private lives, and somtimes people get hurt as a result, for we cannot be all things to all people. all of the time. It does not men that we cannot feel for the persons effected or sympathise with their difficulties, caused through our actions. When the choices to be made are all bad ones, then we have to chose the best of the bad options,which is the task of all good goverments. There is little doubt in my mind a personal opinion born out of consequences, that we as a Nation are much better off today as a consequence of her actions. As a seperate issue,I have difficulty in understanding what is meant by the word fair. as used in politicsand by all political parties and some posters, for what is seen as 'fair' by one party or poster is certainly not fair to those who have to pay the price for that perceived fairness. I thought the poll tsax was fair, and I see the current bedroom tax as fair , even though they both caused hardship to some families, but benefited more than it caused difficulties to. Life itself is not 'fair' if we look closely at what is around us all the time. I hope you dont mind me using your post as a hook to hang my own feelings on, but I need to let it out.
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| C-too | Oct 8 2014, 12:33 PM Post #31 |
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I agree with your "them and us" comment. But IMO Scargill was a naive extremist with no idea on how to stand up to Thatcher. In terms of ability to be blinded by extremism I would put Thatcher and Scargill at the same level. I suspect Scargill was a born millitant. I believe worker representation at board level would improve things dramatically. The chances of that appear to be as far away as ever. I believe Scargill was a fall guy for Thatcher, geven some credibility by the one thing he got right which was that Thatcher intended to close most mines. Yes, "the right" with its arrogant attitudes will always work on producing scapegoats to hang out as excuses for their nasty, greedy intentions. They screwed the economy in the 20th century and blamed everyone else, especially the unions. |
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| Affa | Oct 8 2014, 01:59 PM Post #32 |
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Mrs T came to power on a ticket to repair the economy, create jobs, and neuter TU excesses. Behind all these problems was the real demon that was wrecking the economy was 'the cause of lousy industrial relations' - Inflation. It was high inflation destroying workers wages, their spending power, their living standards. It was 'monetary policies' that were in a large part to blame for inflation. Interest rates were meddled with, exchange rates were meddled with, and wage controls were punitive. There was no need to set about destroying the Unions, if inflation were brought under control, no need if wages retained their value - then the Unions have no gripe, have no militancy. It was the fact that NS Oil came on tap that the decision to shut down the coal industry was made - quite simply, oil was cheaper, and coal, particularly coal miners, were no longer needed. It was never about "who rules the country" though as a soundbite it had great value. Inflation was the real demon - did she beat inflation? The answer is No, she did not. The Unions had been blamed for all our economic struggle - did those struggles end when the Unions were no longer capable of wrecking anything? The answer is No. Public Services were inefficient, a drain on the tax payer - did selling them save the tax payer a penny? The answer is No. Her legacy is a 'benefit culture', 'high unemployment', 'casino banking', a Massive increase in the Welfare Spend', a divided nation both by class and geographically North & South. Oh, and I've not mentioned "Rip off Britain". Edited by Affa, Oct 8 2014, 02:01 PM.
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| Tytoalba | Oct 8 2014, 02:11 PM Post #33 |
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All he had to do was to call a vote on striking and that he did not do. All the miners had to do was to obey the law and act in a peaceful manner, which they did not do. That lost them both the support of the public at large and their jobs. I have a friend who comes from a mining area in Durham, where he has friends who were in the mining industry. Some of his friends say it was the best thing that could have happened to them and their families, for who in their right minds today would want to work, or their sons to work at a coql face, in dirt and dust, with a constant danger of collapse or explosion, and at a risk to their lungs and general health. sometimes a mile or more under the ocean? The mines started from nothing, and all would eventually need to close down as they became unproductive to work, just like our potteried or cotton industry The attacks on Thatcher are more political ones than ones of reality of the times. The police who also come under political attack were upholding the law according to law Where here was violence they met it head on. What more could you expect,, or would you prefer that the legitimate forces of law and order were overwhelmed and defeated? There are people out there who have a politicl interest in dividing the police from the people for their own political gains. They want to win their idealogical war at any price., and no matter who suffers in achieving their ends. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 8 2014, 02:52 PM Post #34 |
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A large proportion of the electorate are equally as concerned at the number of gullible and misguided voters who are likely to vote Labour, although with Miliband at the helm and Labour's anti-aspiration, anti-business, anti-middle class rhetoric coupled with their cynical policy of putting party political interests ahead of English democracy, it is increasingly likely that they won't form part of the next government. Are there enough disabled, low paid, unemployed, single parent voters to vote for them because they are alienating every other voter category which they need to if they are to even be the largest party let alone get a majority. |
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| C-too | Oct 8 2014, 02:59 PM Post #35 |
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Very good post.
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 8 2014, 03:06 PM Post #36 |
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Leftist and right-wing nonsense respectively Does anyone remember the "British jobs for British workers" wildcat strke in 2009? ? If so, does anyone recall the outcome, because I recall success after having had fatcats outsource jobs to foreign workers for lower wages, some of the workers who went on strike EXPLICITLY stated that they were NOT racist, but that they wanted everyone to be paid fairly and for everyone to have the same conditions. Was the strike disruptive? Yes, very much so Was the strike wrong? No, not in the slightest, it was a noble strike with noble intentions from the outset. The union initially tried to stop the strikers from going out on strike, but once it became clear that they had no effect the union got behind the strike in order to look good. They then went behind the worker's backs and tried to sell them out Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 8 2014, 03:11 PM.
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| Affa | Oct 8 2014, 03:32 PM Post #37 |
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What is it about the term 'provocation' you do not understand? Here you are listing the requirements that you determine were all that was needed. None of which recognises the argument that this conflict was a deliberately orchestrated government assault on a now no longer relevant Nationalised industry. These jobs were lost as you do mention, but lost for an entirely different reason to the one you say was the cause. You have my sympathy for having your long held belief in what transpired completely discredited. It must be disarming, must cause you to question whether your belief system is at all reliable, can in fact be trusted. I cannot imagine how it must be for you to realise that everything you valued as an ethological practice is in fact undermined. is corrupt, is dishonest. Thatcherism was/is a failure. Edited by Affa, Oct 8 2014, 03:34 PM.
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| C-too | Oct 8 2014, 03:37 PM Post #38 |
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I don't think many people missed the fact that Scargill showed that he was a few pence short of a shilling. The miners did behave in a reasonable manner until they were provoked. Yes in health terms it was a reasonable point, but a similar point could be made for many other industries at that time. Even so, if a change was to be made (for economic reasons) with knock-on effects for the health of the miners, a phasing out programme with a retraining programme (similar to the German sustem) was the civilised way to go. Germany more civilised than the UK, Oh! the shame of it. Mind you right-wingers are unlikely to recognise the problem. The attacks on Thatcher are based upon her callous political policies and her less than honest speaches. AS for the police being forced to take action, THE REALITY !!! AS ADMITTED BY THE BBC. (But not to my knowledge given any serious publicity which is probably why you have not heard of it ?) A cutting error during the editing of the tapes --- "mistakenly"(?) --- showed the miners throwing stones at the police followed by a police charge. The REALITY was a police charge was followed by the miners throwing stones. That I believe shows just how sick some of the police, the BBC and the government were at that time. |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 8 2014, 05:38 PM Post #39 |
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Of course it had to be a conspiracy, for otherwise having to accept the truth and reality would hurt our own perseptions of what really took place and counter our own personal bias. Had the strikers. led by the unions, acted in a lawful and peaceful manner there would not have been any violence. You talk about provocation , but using force, obstructing those wanting to work and throwing missiles at police really is provocation, and they did just that. Ask yourself do you want the law upheld or not for that is the bottom line. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 8 2014, 05:43 PM Post #40 |
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If the law is unjust and being applied with prejudice as was the case, then no, if the state is acting as an enemy combatant then definitely not. The miners did break the law and they were 100% in the right to, as Ctoo said ask yourself who provoked them? |
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7:34 PM Jul 11