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| An Ideological Battle; George Osborne has urged business to counter what he sees as an anti-free market movement led by trade unions and charities. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 3 2014, 03:35 PM (1,247 Views) | |
| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 03:35 PM Post #1 |
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/george-osborne-businesses-case-free-market
It's time the ideological battle went beyond "capitalism or no capitalism", reforming the system doesn't work, most if not all left-wing and right-wing ideologies don't work. Why won't people think beyond the current paradigm and see that there are different ways of operating things that go far beyond the imaginations of simplistic politicians like Gideon Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 3 2014, 03:36 PM.
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| Heinrich | Oct 3 2014, 03:38 PM Post #2 |
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The Tories are friends of the corporations, the entrepreneur class, and the financial operators. What else is new? |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 03:41 PM Post #3 |
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I thought it was pretty funny he attacked charities, seeing as charities are free market enterprises in their own right, plus they operate as an efficient service for tax evasion for the rich. And TU's operate as vehicles to channel dissent into obscurity. Not to mention there are loads of right-wing and scab unions Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 3 2014, 03:42 PM.
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| Heinrich | Oct 3 2014, 03:47 PM Post #4 |
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Tories do not include the trade unions of the professions such as law and medicine in their maligning of organizations which work for better pay and conditions for their members. It's a class thing. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 05:06 PM Post #5 |
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And yet I meant normal TU's, supposedly the vehicle of class rebellion, or not.
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 3 2014, 05:06 PM.
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 3 2014, 08:21 PM Post #6 |
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/george-osborne-charities-business-chancellor
"Osborne told the annual convention of the Institute of Directors in London: “You have to get out there and put the business argument, because there are plenty of pressure groups, plenty of trade unions and plenty of charities and the like, that will put the counter view." Labour raise a salient point here: "Labour said Osborne’s remarks showed that the Conservatives had forgotten David Cameron’s “big society” rhetoric. Lisa Nandy, the shadow minister for civil society, said Osborne made clear he thinks many trade unions and charities are the enemies of prosperity. “It follows a long campaign of words and actions from this government that amount to a stunning attack on charities, from clamping down on the right to use judicial review to the introduction of the lobbying act,” she said. “It’s a far cry from David Cameron’s big society.”" Big Society seems to be dead in the water for sure |
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| Affa | Oct 3 2014, 11:54 PM Post #7 |
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A high handicap golfer trying to tell Tiger Woods how to correct his swing. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 4 2014, 02:04 PM Post #8 |
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I don't think most right-wingers want to confront any truth other than their own. In their minds, because it's simple to argue something based on a false dichotomy, there only exist three political currents: the swamp of centre-leftism and the swamp centre-rightism and slightly further right-wing parties (ie ukip). Anything that exists outside of that narrow political spectrum is impossible to comprehend, they will make completely contradictory blanket condemnations of anything or anyone that dares to confront it |
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| papasmurf | Oct 4 2014, 02:07 PM Post #9 |
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The Conservatives just don't like criticism with evidence that many of their policies are failing. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 4 2014, 02:53 PM Post #10 |
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It's not just Tories sadly, ,ost people don't like having their ideas questioned and shown up by evidence, myself I don't care. If it rules something out for me and expands my knowledge then, if anything, I am grateful |
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| Affa | Oct 4 2014, 04:17 PM Post #11 |
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The "it's not our fault Tories", it's Labour's fault, it's the euro-zone's fault, it's the Union's fault ..... etc etc. In October 2010 > 'The chancellor today welcomed a "double dose of good news" after GDP grew by 0.8% in the past three months, and the ratings agency Standard & Poor's confirmed Britain's AAA credit rating. Britain, which is now considered a safe haven, is to be taken off the agency's list of countries on "negative watch". Osborne said: "What you see today, in an uncertain global economic environment, is Britain growing, growing strongly, the strongest growth we have seen in this part of the year for a decade, and also our country's credit rating being secured. That is a big vote of confidence in the UK, and a vote of confidence in the coalition government's economic policies." What happened next? Here we have George claiming credit five months into him taking over the chancellors job for Surprising growth in the economy and for 'securing' the UK AAA rating ......... yet nothing of what happened next is his fault, not the stagnation in the economy, not the loss of the AAA rating. Such BS as he still produces as at conference ......... and he's believed by supposedly intelligent and educated folk on debating forums. Believed might not be correct - more likely they uphold the lies of it from lack of any integrity. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/oct/26/gdp-growth-osborne-construction |
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| Lewis | Oct 4 2014, 05:24 PM Post #12 |
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Nothing surprises me about this idiot. He just another Tory who is completely and utterly incompetent. |
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| Alberich | Oct 5 2014, 12:32 PM Post #13 |
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Now that you've all had your guardianista moment, you might consider that it is business that keeps this country afloat. Business, and those employed by the private sector are the producers of the nations wealth; those employed in the public sector are consumers. No-one would deny that a public sector is vital to provide the services that we all need, provided their numbers are kept within reasonable bounds, and as low as is necessary to provide said services. So if the aim is a thriving economy, and low unemployment, it makes sense to nurture the wealth producing sector by a low tax regime, and light regulation. I don't disagree with Kellner, and his criticisms are not aimed solely at business. Zero hours contracts neeed looking at, and top end bonuses are obscene on occasion. But the goose that lays the golden eggs is big business, and you don't kill said goose for next Christmas unless you want corned beef the Christmas after;.....and unless you are Labour! |
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| Stan Still | Oct 5 2014, 12:43 PM Post #14 |
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I fully agree if you want more jobs more work and a strong economy one has no choice but to attract big business and investors not drive them away that is sheer lunacy. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 5 2014, 12:44 PM Post #15 |
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Can you point me to an example of what you describe working for more than 30 years in a row? It's a recipe for disaster, our economic system can only continue to exist through boom and bust. People like you need Labour as your Loyal Opposition to purposely overspend, overtax and as you say "kill the golden goose" in order to revive the argument for the "golden goose" in the first place. How many times has the cycle repeated itself? Since Labour were elected the very first time. Light regulation leads to complete abuse of the system by those in the financial industry, as we've seen. Lunatic fringe libertarian policies and complete de-regulation are a different matter entirely, if those policies were enacted (not that they ever would be, cronyism is far too well entrenched in our system) you'd see a crisis hit very quickly or a complete shift in terms of power, a shift to the kind of society the Victorians could only dream of (think of Somalia, the supposed Libertarian Paradise). But you even say yourself, we do need some regulation, so all in all your politics have been tried and tested to exhaustion and they don't seem to work, just sayin'. |
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| Heinrich | Oct 5 2014, 12:45 PM Post #16 |
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It is failure to regulate the main industry of England, namely the financial services and casino banking, which was most to blame for the financial crisis a few years back and which continues to act as a drag on the economy. There is more to good government than allowing the greedy bankers and brokers in the City of London to do as they please. |
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| C-too | Oct 5 2014, 01:13 PM Post #17 |
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It's not just big business that keeps the country afloat, a reasonably happy workforce with a reasonable safety net plays a major part. That is something NL understood, and the Tories have never given any indications of understanding. The goose that lays the golden egg should not be allowed to stuff itself to the extent that it is over fat and too little is left for others. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM Post #18 |
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Yes some of the Banks and Financial Services not just in the UK but globally reeked havoc with our economy and the economy of others, they should have been more controlled more by the Government of the day but were not, what was done cannot be undone. Today the banks are paying the price of such folly by a few in their ranks, thousands of jobs in the financial sector in the UK have gone and huge financial penalties have been paid and still being brought. However the Coalition have already put in place far stricter regulations which should have been done by previous Governments, but its no good looking back at what should have been done with the benefit of hindsight, we have to look to the future and make sure the same mistakes are not made again. Some of the bankers are now in the process of being prosecuted for their greed and stupidity and righty so for lending far too much money to people who could not pay the money they borrowed back. Like it or not we need the financial sector to be better run and in profit like any other business, they do attract billions of pound notes to the UK every year, they pay large amounts of tax every year, if the City goes under so does the rest of the UK. The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy. |
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| C-too | Oct 5 2014, 02:02 PM Post #19 |
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Toxic debts slipped into the international financial markets via Wall Street did the damage. |
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| Affa | Oct 5 2014, 03:19 PM Post #20 |
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The Tory doctrine in a nutshell ......... You say the Private Sector is the only wealth creator ...... does that include those in the Private Sector on Government contracts? The Government (tax payer) is the biggest investor in the UK, and most of that investment provides the Private Sector with the opportunities for profits. It is tax payers paying these firms, tax payers footing the bills, tax payers providing these profits. Then there is the other contradiction of your ideology. The Privatisation of (say) the Electricity Generating Service - was it some miracle that turned a Nationalised (and therefore drain on the country's wealth) into a boost to the Nation's fortunes as a Private (albeit foreign owned) wealth creator? Privatisation of Nationalised services, industries has not turned them into wealth generators, rather into costly replacements. And has it happens a number of public owned service providers do create wealth, do generate wealth for the Nation. Your whole premise is nothing short of BS. |
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| Affa | Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM Post #21 |
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Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment? Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down. |
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| Alberich | Oct 5 2014, 03:45 PM Post #22 |
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But what is your alternative? We who are right of centre recognise that capitalism, with its many faults, is probably the most workable system there is. There are inequalities. There will always be rich and poor. But by and large it produces the employment and the wealth that allows a high standard of living for the vast majority. The alternative is a form of communism, and when all is said and done, the philosophy of the left is a form of communism light. Now on an intellectual scale, communism is hard to fault. From each according to his ability to pay. To each according to their needs. What could be fairer than that? But in the real world it simply doesn't work. If you over-tax, and over-regulate the wealth producers, they produce less tax revenue, and umemployment goes up as they tighten their collective belts. So control the obvious excesses, but live in the real world. Capitalism works. How would you ameliorate things? |
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| Stan Still | Oct 5 2014, 05:41 PM Post #23 |
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It is a fine line and a balancing act that all Governments play when setting taxes on business set them too high and they leave or stay away, yes they should pay their fair share but as I understand it the Government is addressing tax avoidance legislation. We have to compete with other tax havens to attract money and investment from abroad and from within again back to a balancing act Any income earned by anyone within the UK pays the set level of taxes if it is not earned here the UK cannot impose tax on it. if you want to see the amounts of money attracted to the UK then you need to follow the City yourself, I do not have the time to do that nor am I an economist. Look to France to see how not to do it Edited by Stan Still, Oct 5 2014, 05:41 PM.
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| papasmurf | Oct 5 2014, 06:41 PM Post #24 |
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That only applies to those on PAYE who have no means of getting out paying income tax. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 5 2014, 07:11 PM Post #25 |
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Fair question to be honest and I agree about Communism, we saw the Soviets descend into barbarism (we, who were 'left-communists', that's left of trotskyism for the uninitiated called Soviet politics post-1917 State Capitalism, we rejected Leninism, Stalinism and 90%+ of Trotskyism). For the record I am no Communist or Socialist of any description any longer. Fact is I believe a number of different systems COULD work, I think a society that allows different ideas to be tried out freely could work, one that provides for different mixed economic systems ... small-scale models of these have proved successful, we saw mixed anarcho-capitalist, anarcho-communist and small socialist communities operate successfully during the anti-Soviet rebellion in Hungary. A system that gives everyone the choice to come and go freely, to try out different economic and political systems democratically, providing measures are put in place to stop any humanitarian rights abuses from occurring. That's very different in my eyes, from anarchism, communism or socialism. But first and foremost I am a believer in human evolution and technocracy. I strongly believe that the new system MUST be something that arises spontaneously, we need people who are passionate about economics and all other topics to formulate solid scientific ideas that the majority agree on. These ideas must fit the mould of human evolution. In short, I have no short and simple answer. I believe Capitalism DID work, it provided us with a lot of good things and definitely has advanced us as a species, however its time is coming to pass and it is my belief, that just as we did before, we as an entire human species will ultimately evolve and invent a new system that makes things better, yet again, for the majority. I don't claim to 100% predict what would be best in this regard. I am hoping we will all decide on the answer together. Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 5 2014, 07:13 PM.
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| somersetli | Oct 5 2014, 07:58 PM Post #26 |
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Well Jnw, having read through your post I can tell you that we have no politicians who could provide such a system that you envisage. Neither do we have voters who could grasp the concept of "something different". For many years we have lurched from Labour to Conservative and back to Labour,(neither being of much use for the country or for those who voted for them), and I cannot see that changing in my life time. We do need a change, but I cannot see the mould being broken while we have the current mind set. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 5 2014, 08:19 PM Post #27 |
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Aye, it may not change in any of our lifetimes, but at least we think differently, that's the key I think. The more people who at least begin to see outside the narrow political spectrum the better and more people who know + the more humanity evolves well...that might just be the ticket. |
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| Tigger | Oct 5 2014, 08:51 PM Post #28 |
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I'd like to see Britain cease being a welfare state for corporations and banks. Do you think you can manage that Mr Osborne? Then and only then can we get proper capitalism back. Edited by Tigger, Oct 5 2014, 08:54 PM.
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 5 2014, 09:36 PM Post #29 |
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'Proper Capitalism' by most people's estimations would without a doubt, be Conservatism, the kind you would hav seen in the 1920's. |
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| Tigger | Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM Post #30 |
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Responsible capitalism is what I'm on about, we have crony capitalism and socialism for big business at the present time. It will fail spectacularly because if you impoverish the consumer with the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term. Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes. |
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| Affa | Oct 5 2014, 10:31 PM Post #31 |
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Short termism, and as you say blind to the damage it does - the "not our fault" Tories never accept responsibility for the harm they do, never miss an opportunity to claim the credit for any small successes. |
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| Rich | Oct 6 2014, 12:19 AM Post #32 |
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Perhaps you would be so kind as to list the successes of the last Labour administration, please do not forget the immigration and deficit which they have publicly acknowledged that they got wrong,........I await your answer with interest. Edited by Rich, Oct 6 2014, 12:21 AM.
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| ACH1967 | Oct 6 2014, 08:13 AM Post #33 |
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And who pays the tax payers? |
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| Deleted User | Oct 6 2014, 10:45 AM Post #34 |
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Nail on the head!! |
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| Deleted User | Oct 6 2014, 10:52 AM Post #35 |
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Rather like virtually any political party in virtually any country in the world then. In this regard Conservative and Labour are indistinguishable! |
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| C-too | Oct 6 2014, 11:03 AM Post #36 |
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Yes, IMO we need a different mindset throughout society. We need a one country attitude based upon reward for effort, fairness and a decent safety net. A situation where all are influenced to pull their weight both for the benefit of the country as well as for personal improvement. |
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| Affa | Oct 6 2014, 01:25 PM Post #37 |
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You will wait a long time Rich. I have no intention of presenting anything in praise of Labour. And certainly not to someone who is mired in discredited Tory propaganda. My comments were about Conservative governments, how they make short term, often knee-jerk, policies that are later revised. Bringing Labour into this serves no worthy purpose. - Has Osborne produced a budget yet where there hasn't been revisions, and the accusation of unworkable hasn't been made and proven? |
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| Tigger | Oct 6 2014, 06:42 PM Post #38 |
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The NHS for starters after years of Tory neglect, and the numerous financial statistics Ctoo among others has posted that you continually ignore Rich, and on a personal level I made far more money under Labour than I have before or probably since, minus the recent Tory tax bribe obviously. Sorry I forgot you are fixated on foreigners, Europe and immigration............ |
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| krugerman | Oct 6 2014, 09:41 PM Post #39 |
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I have no problem with business, commerce or enterprise, why should I ?, I run a small business of my own. But I am afraid that the blunt truth is that the Conservatives believe that people and employees are a mere commodity, their policy is to use people, like a dish cloth, like a tool that you can use when needed and then throw away or discard, this is why the Conservatives always take away the minimum statutory rights of workers, its why the laws were changed on unfair dismissal, it makes it much easier to hire and fire at will without any comeback. Business and enterprise must be free to do business, make money and prosper, but it has a duty to be responsible to workers, to people, to care about those who work hard to keep themselves and their families, and not to treat people as a disposable commodity. We need to kick out the Conservatives and replace them with a party or coalition which actually cares about both business and people, in other words "capitalism with a social conscience". |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 7 2014, 02:47 AM Post #40 |
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It's not enjoyable to say this but Capitalism with a social conscience is a bit of an oxymoron, if you want a government like Clement Attlee's or Harold Wilsons' (probably the most responsible governments ever to take power and the ones who really did have a warped but genuinely focused sense of social responsibility) you will be waiting forever. Even those governments were nowhere near perfect and did many unforgiveable things. The days of such governments are long gone. New Labour were not Capitalism with a social conscience, they would have had to make huge cuts just as any party. They would have been dictated to by the markets just as the Tories have been and if they failed to cut, we would have been penalised even worse than we have been Tel lme this would a government with a social conscience have invaded Afghan and Iraq? Would they have started to stick people on the cruel and ruthless work capability assessment system for disability benefits? Would they have let huge scandals take place in the care system? Would they have pocketed huge amounts of money for themselves from corrupt businesses? Would they have begun selling off the NHS from within? Would they have let the criminal justice system become as atrophied as it has become? I don't think so. |
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