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An Ideological Battle; George Osborne has urged business to counter what he sees as an anti-free market movement led by trade unions and charities.
Topic Started: Oct 3 2014, 03:35 PM (1,251 Views)
jeevesnwooster
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/george-osborne-businesses-case-free-market

Quote:
 
George Osborne has urged businesses to raise their heads “above the parapet” and counter what he sees as an anti-free market movement led by trade unions and charities.

Speaking to business leaders at the Institute of Directors’ annual convention, Osborne said principles of enterprise and business as a force for widespread prosperity were “up for grabs” for the first time in his adult life.

Quote:
 

He added: “For the first time in my adult life that is up for grabs. That issue felt like it had been resolved when the Berlin Wall fell … Politicians like Tony Blair from the left felt like they had understood that free markets create the taxes to fund public services. That argument has gone.”

Osborne’s comments about businesses taking a stand in a battle of ideas around capitalism contrasted somewhat with a perspective from his fellow speaker, Peter Kellner, president of the pollsters YouGov.

Setting out a list of controversial business practices such as zero-hours contracts and large executive bonuses, Kellner urged business leaders to consider how their behaviour affected their reputations. He flagged up the dwindling reputations of those in power – be it in central government, local government or business.

Kellner said there had been a marked decline in recent years of trust in politics, driven by the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) revelations and later the expenses scandal. But YouGov had also noted that the reputation of business leaders had declined as a group, he said.


It's time the ideological battle went beyond "capitalism or no capitalism", reforming the system doesn't work, most if not all left-wing and right-wing ideologies don't work.

Why won't people think beyond the current paradigm and see that there are different ways of operating things that go far beyond the imaginations of simplistic politicians like Gideon
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 3 2014, 03:36 PM.
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C-too
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 02:47 AM
Tigger
Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM
Responsible capitalism is what I'm on about, we have crony capitalism and socialism for big business at the present time. It will fail spectacularly because if you impoverish the consumer with the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term.

Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes.


krugerman
Oct 6 2014, 09:41 PM
I have no problem with business, commerce or enterprise, why should I ?, I run a small business of my own.

But I am afraid that the blunt truth is that the Conservatives believe that people and employees are a mere commodity, their policy is to use people, like a dish cloth, like a tool that you can use when needed and then throw away or discard, this is why the Conservatives always take away the minimum statutory rights of workers, its why the laws were changed on unfair dismissal, it makes it much easier to hire and fire at will without any comeback.

Business and enterprise must be free to do business, make money and prosper, but it has a duty to be responsible to workers, to people, to care about those who work hard to keep themselves and their families, and not to treat people as a disposable commodity.

We need to kick out the Conservatives and replace them with a party or coalition which actually cares about both business and people, in other words "capitalism with a social conscience".



It's not enjoyable to say this but Capitalism with a social conscience is a bit of an oxymoron, if you want a government like Clement Attlee's or Harold Wilsons' (probably the most responsible governments ever to take power and the ones who really did have a warped but genuinely focused sense of social responsibility) you will be waiting forever. Even those governments were nowhere near perfect and did many unforgiveable things.

The days of such governments are long gone.

New Labour were not Capitalism with a social conscience, they would have had to make huge cuts just as any party. They would have been dictated to by the markets just as the Tories have been and if they failed to cut, we would have been penalised even worse than we have been

Tel lme this would a government with a social conscience have invaded Afghan and Iraq? Would they have started to stick people on the cruel and ruthless work capability assessment system for disability benefits? Would they have let huge scandals take place in the care system? Would they have pocketed huge amounts of money for themselves from corrupt businesses? Would they have begun selling off the NHS from within? Would they have let the criminal justice system become as atrophied as it has become?

I don't think so.
Callous capitalism;
17 years of high/mass unemployment, a big increase in the number of people living in relative poverty. etc etc etc.
Capitalism with a social conscience;
1.6 million taken out of relative poverty, unemployment below 1 million, tax credits etc etc etc.
Perhaps you have a better way to describe the differences?

Clem Attlee's government was the product of the awfulness that existed before WWII, that awfulness no longer exists.

New Labour was (past tense) a government with a social conscience. Yes, NL was a government that believed in capitalism (as did Harold Wilson) and yes they would have had to make cuts as would any reasonable government.
Until a proven workable option to capitalism is found we are stuck with it.

The Invasion of Afghanistan included NATO, are you suggesting the UK should leave NATO?
The decision to take part in the invasion of Iraq was taken by parliament, not by the government.

The number of people on some form of incapacity benefit in 1979 IIRC was 0.79 million, in 2002, mainly IMO due to 17 years of high/mass unemployment, was 2.2 million, and is now 2.6 million. The implication is that many people on IB are capable of work.
Atos was the wrong company who, as far as I am aware, made too many bad decisions and who have now withdrawn. Those bad decisions do not mean that there is not a problem of some people being on IB who are quite capable of work.

Scandals in the care system were addressed once exposed.
The --- government --- did not pocket huge amounts of money for itself from corrupt businesses. A few individuals may have and would have been dealt with if and when they were found out.
NHS hospital(s?) run by private management are still part of the NHS.
Not sure what you mean by the Justice system becoming "atrophied" under NL.



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Steve K
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Tigger
Oct 6 2014, 06:42 PM
Rich
Oct 6 2014, 12:19 AM
Affa
Oct 5 2014, 10:31 PM
Tigger
Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM
the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term.

Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes.

Short termism, and as you say blind to the damage it does - the "not our fault" Tories never accept responsibility for the harm they do, never miss an opportunity to claim the credit for any small successes.





Perhaps you would be so kind as to list the successes of the last Labour administration, please do not forget the immigration and deficit which they have publicly acknowledged that they got wrong,........I await your answer with interest.
The NHS for starters after years of Tory neglect, and the numerous financial statistics Ctoo among others has posted that you continually ignore Rich, and on a personal level I made far more money under Labour than I have before or probably since, minus the recent Tory tax bribe obviously.

Sorry I forgot you are fixated on foreigners, Europe and immigration............
seconded

People expect too much of governments and seem to misread their promises even when explicitly written down. There seems to a collective mass delusion that there is near unlimited free money to be had and used to provide much better services and that "the only thing that limits this is government incompetence or worse". Just keeping the wheels on a country that far far outperforms its modern day geographical, geological and human potential is a big ask.

FWIW New Labour did a lot of good in their early years. They fixed huge issues in defence, the NHS and education. The HRA was and remains a good move, their early financial deregulation was good. The biggest thing though was they gave the country back self belief, it became re-energised.

The signs that it would go wrong started with their woeful handling of the 2001 Foot and Mouth outbreak and loosening immigration to fix the likes of the NHS but more than anything it went wrong when Blair lost his authority over Iraq and Brown became an uncontrollable vote buying chancellor, an internal disruptor and later a disastrous PM.
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jeevesnwooster
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I see our resident "defender of the faith" is back to defend every minute failing made under NL, which is frankly bizarre seeing as with some of the stuff he touches on, the New Labour politicians themselves openly and expressly apologised for those points.

I don't pretend to understand why you'd then defend the point, but anyway.

SK
 
The signs that it would go wrong started with their woeful handling of the 2001 Foot and Mouth outbreak and loosening immigration to fix the likes of the NHS but more than anything it went wrong when Blair lost his authority over Iraq and Brown became an uncontrollable vote buying chancellor, an internal disruptor and later a disastrous PM.


This is probably an average person's view of the situation.

It has been said many times that had Blair stayed in power, NL may well still be in power now/

Blair even said on the economy, that Alistair Darling's plan was wrong and the Tories had a better understanding of it, he'd probably have conjured up something to woo the public with.

Anyway, moving on, it's not New Labour I take exception with or any administration.

It's the system, it's the system that forces politicians to work in a certain way, it's the whips, it's the banks and the corporations. It's the weight of history and the ideological weight of Capitalism itself that I take issue with.

If I take that into account, I could easily agree with all the points you both make about NL's successes and I could say "well relatively, given the system they were forced to work with, NL did quite well".

But that wouldn't sit right with me, it still caused and causes untold suffering
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Steve K
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Our political system is the least worst known. It suffers when it lacks leaders that can sell the reality of short term sacrifices for long term betterment to so many that just want to be richer now.

Still I see I now have risen to "an average person" in JnW's estimation. My old school would be so proud ;-)

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jeevesnwooster
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The least worst option. Known to not fully work, but one that causes the least KNOWN harm comparatively. Still intolerable for the majority of people n the world, on a daily level that is.

By the way I said that's probably what the average person would think with regards to NL, was not implying you fit that bill yourself
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C-too
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The problem with the foot and mouth disease was caused by the country wide transport of cows giving the impression that unrelated outbreaks were taking place in different parts of the country.

The movement of cows was subsequently restricted and a history record of each cow put in place.

It was a horrible time with horrific pictures on TV.
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C-too
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 09:55 AM
I see our resident "defender of the faith" is back to defend every minute failing made under NL, which is frankly bizarre seeing as with some of the stuff he touches on, the New Labour politicians themselves openly and expressly apologised for those points.

I don't pretend to understand why you'd then defend the point, but anyway.
Care to name the points the NL government apologised for and that I have suggested otherwise?

When you can't I suggest you consider climbing off my back.
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Steve K
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 10:41 AM
By the way I said that's probably what the average person would think with regards to NL, was not implying you fit that bill yourself
So not even average then  :( . I may need to go seek counselling to cope with this.
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Heinrich
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 10:41 AM
... Known to not fully work, but one that causes the least KNOWN harm comparatively. Still intolerable for the majority of people n the world, on a daily level that is. ...
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
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jeevesnwooster
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Steve K
Oct 7 2014, 11:34 AM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 10:41 AM
By the way I said that's probably what the average person would think with regards to NL, was not implying you fit that bill yourself
So not even average then  :( . I may need to go seek counselling to cope with this.
 !bgrin! I meant it in a nice way actually believe it or not
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jeevesnwooster
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Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 12:22 PM
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

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papasmurf
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:57 PM
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

There are at least a million people in Britain whose only chance of getting a meal is a food bank.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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And seeing J&W's image i immediately thought og this chap

This image is a spoof, a scam, a lie, put out as a cheap stunt by a digital media agency (or as pratchett's wee free men call 'em, a bunch of scunners) called razorfish

Posted Image

Although thanks to the impressive number of indians now offering to undercut me on peopleperhour and firms like lloyds tsb looking to hire "freelance" database developers for an ahourly rate less than that which would allow me to pay myself the NMW, it may not be a spoof for much longer
Edited by johnofgwent, Oct 7 2014, 02:18 PM.
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jeevesnwooster
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Surprised they haven't got scientists on freelancers.com or net or whatever it is yet
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Tytoalba
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Affa
Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM
Stan Still
Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM


The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy.






Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment?

Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down.
Tax avoidance is legal , and is bound to the draw attention of buisiness accountants, even expected of them Tax evasion is a crime and will not be countanenced by accountants.
Why shouldnt any buisiness take advamntage of it to boost their profits, for the only reason to be in buisiness is to make a profit from the activity?
If the people and the government do not like it, and see it as a loophole they did not intend then chage the law. Just be careful that you dont kill off the golden goose that supplies employment and where the workers themselves are taxed. You may see it as a moral issue, but not everyone will agree with your version of morality. Be objective.
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Tytoalba
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:57 PM
Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 12:22 PM
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
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Heinrich
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Affa
Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM
Stan Still
Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM


The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy.






Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment?

Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down.
Tax avoidance is legal , and is bound to the draw attention of buisiness accountants, even expected of them Tax evasion is a crime and will not be countanenced by accountants.
Why shouldnt any buisiness take advamntage of it to boost their profits, for the only reason to be in buisiness is to make a profit from the activity?
If the people and the government do not like it, and see it as a loophole they did not intend then chage the law. Just be careful that you dont kill off the golden goose that supplies employment and where the workers themselves are taxed. You may see it as a moral issue, but not everyone will agree with your version of morality. Be objective.
Political parties that are in hock to the banks and financiers are opposed to changing laws which favor multinational capitalist corporations.
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Tytoalba
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:57 PM
Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 12:22 PM
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Just to make the point, and there are many of the same on Google This one made £50,000 a year and lived in a £300,000 flat

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/beggar-who-earned-50000ayear-and-lives-in-300000-fulham-flat-is-arrested-again-8646973.html
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Begging is illegal? Reference please.

So many beggars making £200 a day? Evidence please?
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Heinrich
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In a free society, it is neither illegal nor immoral to ask for help.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Affa
Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM
Stan Still
Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM


The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy.






Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment?

Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down.
Tax avoidance is legal , and is bound to the draw attention of buisiness accountants, even expected of them Tax evasion is a crime and will not be countanenced by accountants.
Why shouldnt any buisiness take advamntage of it to boost their profits, for the only reason to be in buisiness is to make a profit from the activity?
If the people and the government do not like it, and see it as a loophole they did not intend then chage the law. Just be careful that you dont kill off the golden goose that supplies employment and where the workers themselves are taxed. You may see it as a moral issue, but not everyone will agree with your version of morality. Be objective.
Tax avoidance is legal but immoral. It is a way of avoiding paying tax that one is expected to pay.
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jeevesnwooster
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:57 PM
Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 12:22 PM
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Why are you replying to me?

I didn't post the picture, Heinrich did
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Affa
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Affa
Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM
Stan Still
Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM


The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy.






Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment?

Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down.
Tax avoidance is legal .....
Why shouldnt any buisiness take advamntage of it to boost their profits, for the only reason to be in buisiness is to make a profit from the activity?
If the people and the government do not like it, and see it as a loophole they did not intend then chage the law. Just be careful that you dont kill off the golden goose


My point was that cutting corporation tax rates for huge companies that avoid paying much corporation tax anyhow Isn't the attraction (inward investment) you imagine it is! Tax Avoidance (not Evasion - edited thanks tp Papa reminding me), the loopholes that permit it, are a much better magnet.

And of course it isn't fair. No fairer than those the PM called "morally wrong" (Jimmy Carr).

The Goose is Society, and it is business running off with the eggs society lays that is ruing society, such that it will kill off the goose - or the goose rebels and kills off capitalism!

Without society there is no business, society came first.






Edited by Affa, Oct 7 2014, 04:48 PM.
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jeevesnwooster
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papasmurf
Oct 7 2014, 04:19 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Begging is illegal? Reference please.

So many beggars making £200 a day? Evidence please?
There is evidence that beggars have made a lot of money from begging in certain hotspots, most of these guys are middle-class scroungers, most beggars however are not like that at all and suffer horrific abuse for their actions and derive little to no money from it.

As usual the right-wing propaganda machine ramps up the rhetoric against the few that go out and persistently beg when they've got loads of money back home.

Begging technically is illegal I think police can and have arrested beggars under local byelaws, including simply for loitering.
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papasmurf
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Affa
Oct 7 2014, 04:36 PM
Evasion, the loopholes that permit it, are a much better magnet.





Tax avoidance which is legal uses loopholes in the regulations. Evasion which is illegal and a deliberately criminal act has nothing to do with loopholes in regulation.
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jeevesnwooster
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Affa
Oct 7 2014, 04:36 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Affa
Oct 5 2014, 03:25 PM
Stan Still
Oct 5 2014, 01:51 PM


The Coalition are changing the tax laws to attract and keep global companies here with a fair rate of tax not a punitive one that will drive them away and jobs will be lost if they go, they are also going to change the levels of income tax to a more fairer level for UK workers to help the economy.






Has this flame of attraction resulted in any noticeable inward investment?

Hardly, and how it is supposed to work when very few of the larger companies pay anything like the proper rate of taxes on their UK earnings anyhow ...... tax avoidance beats tax cuts hands down.
Tax avoidance is legal .....
Why shouldnt any buisiness take advamntage of it to boost their profits, for the only reason to be in buisiness is to make a profit from the activity?
If the people and the government do not like it, and see it as a loophole they did not intend then chage the law. Just be careful that you dont kill off the golden goose


My point was that cutting corporation tax rates for huge companies that avoid paying much corporation tax anyhow Isn't the attraction (inward investment) you imagine it is! Tax Avoidance (not Evasion - edited thanks tp Papa reminding me), the loopholes that permit it, are a much better magnet.

And of course it isn't fair. No fairer than those the PM called "morally wrong" (Jimmy Carr).

The Goose is Society, and it is business running off with the eggs society lays that is ruing society, such that it will kill off the goose - or the goose rebels and kills off capitalism!

Without society there is no business, society came first.






Nail on the head as usual
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Steve K
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:48 PM
Steve K
Oct 7 2014, 11:34 AM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 10:41 AM
By the way I said that's probably what the average person would think with regards to NL, was not implying you fit that bill yourself
So not even average then  :( . I may need to go seek counselling to cope with this.
 !bgrin! I meant it in a nice way actually believe it or not
yes I took it that way, just thought a little levity might amuse
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Oct 7 2014, 04:19 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Begging is illegal? Reference please.

So many beggars making £200 a day? Evidence please?
Begging is illegal under the Vagrancy Act of 1824.

I gave you the evidence in the posted link. There are others you can google yourself.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 06:09 PM
Begging is illegal under the Vagrancy Act of 1824.

I gave you the evidence in the posted link. There are others you can google yourself.
Link that act so I can see it still applies.


What posted link?

I don't intend to do any googling because you need to prove your contention a significant number of beggars are making £200 a day. (That is actuarial evidence NOT newspaper storties.
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Tigger
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 02:47 AM
Tigger
Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM
Responsible capitalism is what I'm on about, we have crony capitalism and socialism for big business at the present time. It will fail spectacularly because if you impoverish the consumer with the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term.

Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes.


krugerman
Oct 6 2014, 09:41 PM
I have no problem with business, commerce or enterprise, why should I ?, I run a small business of my own.

But I am afraid that the blunt truth is that the Conservatives believe that people and employees are a mere commodity, their policy is to use people, like a dish cloth, like a tool that you can use when needed and then throw away or discard, this is why the Conservatives always take away the minimum statutory rights of workers, its why the laws were changed on unfair dismissal, it makes it much easier to hire and fire at will without any comeback.

Business and enterprise must be free to do business, make money and prosper, but it has a duty to be responsible to workers, to people, to care about those who work hard to keep themselves and their families, and not to treat people as a disposable commodity.

We need to kick out the Conservatives and replace them with a party or coalition which actually cares about both business and people, in other words "capitalism with a social conscience".



It's not enjoyable to say this but Capitalism with a social conscience is a bit of an oxymoron, if you want a government like Clement Attlee's or Harold Wilsons' (probably the most responsible governments ever to take power and the ones who really did have a warped but genuinely focused sense of social responsibility) you will be waiting forever. Even those governments were nowhere near perfect and did many unforgiveable things.

The days of such governments are long gone.

New Labour were not Capitalism with a social conscience, they would have had to make huge cuts just as any party. They would have been dictated to by the markets just as the Tories have been and if they failed to cut, we would have been penalised even worse than we have been

Tel lme this would a government with a social conscience have invaded Afghan and Iraq? Would they have started to stick people on the cruel and ruthless work capability assessment system for disability benefits? Would they have let huge scandals take place in the care system? Would they have pocketed huge amounts of money for themselves from corrupt businesses? Would they have begun selling off the NHS from within? Would they have let the criminal justice system become as atrophied as it has become?

I don't think so.
I've always admired the Scandinavian countries,staunchly capitalist but with strong social provision.

I met some Swedes on holiday several years ago and we got talking about our respective societies, I lamented the fact that in the UK it was often every man for himself and that just about everything had a price tag on it. I was told rather bluntly that Britain was not yet a mature or grown up country.......... :'(
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 7 2014, 04:19 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Begging is illegal? Reference please.

So many beggars making £200 a day? Evidence please?
Begging lawful? or unlawful? can you be arrested for it? yes? or No?

I Goggled it and know the answer to both questions.

Do some beggars make lots of money,? I know the answer to that one as well

Took all of 40 seconds back breaking hard work.  ::)
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krugerman
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Tigger
Oct 7 2014, 07:02 PM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 02:47 AM
Tigger
Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM
Responsible capitalism is what I'm on about, we have crony capitalism and socialism for big business at the present time. It will fail spectacularly because if you impoverish the consumer with the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term.

Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes.


krugerman
Oct 6 2014, 09:41 PM
I have no problem with business, commerce or enterprise, why should I ?, I run a small business of my own.

But I am afraid that the blunt truth is that the Conservatives believe that people and employees are a mere commodity, their policy is to use people, like a dish cloth, like a tool that you can use when needed and then throw away or discard, this is why the Conservatives always take away the minimum statutory rights of workers, its why the laws were changed on unfair dismissal, it makes it much easier to hire and fire at will without any comeback.

Business and enterprise must be free to do business, make money and prosper, but it has a duty to be responsible to workers, to people, to care about those who work hard to keep themselves and their families, and not to treat people as a disposable commodity.

We need to kick out the Conservatives and replace them with a party or coalition which actually cares about both business and people, in other words "capitalism with a social conscience".



It's not enjoyable to say this but Capitalism with a social conscience is a bit of an oxymoron, if you want a government like Clement Attlee's or Harold Wilsons' (probably the most responsible governments ever to take power and the ones who really did have a warped but genuinely focused sense of social responsibility) you will be waiting forever. Even those governments were nowhere near perfect and did many unforgiveable things.

The days of such governments are long gone.

New Labour were not Capitalism with a social conscience, they would have had to make huge cuts just as any party. They would have been dictated to by the markets just as the Tories have been and if they failed to cut, we would have been penalised even worse than we have been

Tel lme this would a government with a social conscience have invaded Afghan and Iraq? Would they have started to stick people on the cruel and ruthless work capability assessment system for disability benefits? Would they have let huge scandals take place in the care system? Would they have pocketed huge amounts of money for themselves from corrupt businesses? Would they have begun selling off the NHS from within? Would they have let the criminal justice system become as atrophied as it has become?

I don't think so.
I've always admired the Scandinavian countries,staunchly capitalist but with strong social provision.

I met some Swedes on holiday several years ago and we got talking about our respective societies, I lamented the fact that in the UK it was often every man for himself and that just about everything had a price tag on it. I was told rather bluntly that Britain was not yet a mature or grown up country.......... :'(
even the CDU ( Conservative / Christian Democrats ) of Germany have a completely different outlook to our Conservatives, following the path of the "Social Market Economy", a strong belief in capitalism, business, free enterprise, but with limited intervention, with light regulation, and a strong belief in decent pensions, a fair benefits system and basic rights and protections - so very different to our Conservative Party.

There is no conflict between basic protections or minimum rights or guarantees and a successful economy, surely Germany have proved it

Taking away basic workers protections in order to drive the economy is commonly referred to as "a race to the bottom", and so it is



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Tigger
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krugerman
Oct 7 2014, 07:36 PM
Tigger
Oct 7 2014, 07:02 PM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 02:47 AM
Tigger
Oct 5 2014, 10:15 PM
Responsible capitalism is what I'm on about, we have crony capitalism and socialism for big business at the present time. It will fail spectacularly because if you impoverish the consumer with the aid of your bedfellow the government that consumer society eventually fails and civil unrest is a given, even the OECD has told us that nations that fail to spread the advantages of wealth around do less well financially in the long term.

Die hard Conservatives have trouble getting their heads around any of that, as being obsessed with the self blinds them to longer term outcomes.


krugerman
Oct 6 2014, 09:41 PM
I have no problem with business, commerce or enterprise, why should I ?, I run a small business of my own.

But I am afraid that the blunt truth is that the Conservatives believe that people and employees are a mere commodity, their policy is to use people, like a dish cloth, like a tool that you can use when needed and then throw away or discard, this is why the Conservatives always take away the minimum statutory rights of workers, its why the laws were changed on unfair dismissal, it makes it much easier to hire and fire at will without any comeback.

Business and enterprise must be free to do business, make money and prosper, but it has a duty to be responsible to workers, to people, to care about those who work hard to keep themselves and their families, and not to treat people as a disposable commodity.

We need to kick out the Conservatives and replace them with a party or coalition which actually cares about both business and people, in other words "capitalism with a social conscience".



It's not enjoyable to say this but Capitalism with a social conscience is a bit of an oxymoron, if you want a government like Clement Attlee's or Harold Wilsons' (probably the most responsible governments ever to take power and the ones who really did have a warped but genuinely focused sense of social responsibility) you will be waiting forever. Even those governments were nowhere near perfect and did many unforgiveable things.

The days of such governments are long gone.

New Labour were not Capitalism with a social conscience, they would have had to make huge cuts just as any party. They would have been dictated to by the markets just as the Tories have been and if they failed to cut, we would have been penalised even worse than we have been

Tel lme this would a government with a social conscience have invaded Afghan and Iraq? Would they have started to stick people on the cruel and ruthless work capability assessment system for disability benefits? Would they have let huge scandals take place in the care system? Would they have pocketed huge amounts of money for themselves from corrupt businesses? Would they have begun selling off the NHS from within? Would they have let the criminal justice system become as atrophied as it has become?

I don't think so.
I've always admired the Scandinavian countries,staunchly capitalist but with strong social provision.

I met some Swedes on holiday several years ago and we got talking about our respective societies, I lamented the fact that in the UK it was often every man for himself and that just about everything had a price tag on it. I was told rather bluntly that Britain was not yet a mature or grown up country.......... :'(
even the CDU ( Conservative / Christian Democrats ) of Germany have a completely different outlook to our Conservatives, following the path of the "Social Market Economy", a strong belief in capitalism, business, free enterprise, but with limited intervention, with light regulation, and a strong belief in decent pensions, a fair benefits system and basic rights and protections - so very different to our Conservative Party.

There is no conflict between basic protections or minimum rights or guarantees and a successful economy, surely Germany have proved it

Taking away basic workers protections in order to drive the economy is commonly referred to as "a race to the bottom", and so it is



I have business contacts in Germany and visit two or three times a year, I've been impressed with the level of training employees get and the at times almost obsessive desire to be the best you can, this contrasts sharply with my experiences here, needless to say I've found my inspiration and new ideas abroad.....
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jeevesnwooster
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Tigger
Oct 7 2014, 07:02 PM
I've always admired the Scandinavian countries,staunchly capitalist but with strong social provision.

I met some Swedes on holiday several years ago and we got talking about our respective societies, I lamented the fact that in the UK it was often every man for himself and that just about everything had a price tag on it. I was told rather bluntly that Britain was not yet a mature or grown up country.......... :'(
Everywhere is 'staunchly capitalist', remember that a large reason why Scandinavian countries can afford higher welfare bills are their rich reserves of natural resources, an important point to consider.

I spoke to some Indian aguy a few years back who said Norway, which is noted for its high standard of living, is actually a nice place if you can get over the more or less overt institutional cultural and to a lesser extent, racial superiority that exists at mostly every level of its culture!

I'm just glad you didn't call the Scandinavian countries socialist. ;-)

They can still run into trouble too though, look at Iceland. Nowhere is immune from capitalism, everywhere in the Western world has more or less the same social ills etc etc, nowhere exists in a bubble.

PS: There are a lot of fascinating things about German culture I agree with the general gist here, they certainly are a lot more efficient than us, I know it's a cliche but it's effing true
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 7 2014, 08:20 PM.
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Tigger
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 08:18 PM
Tigger
Oct 7 2014, 07:02 PM
I've always admired the Scandinavian countries,staunchly capitalist but with strong social provision.

I met some Swedes on holiday several years ago and we got talking about our respective societies, I lamented the fact that in the UK it was often every man for himself and that just about everything had a price tag on it. I was told rather bluntly that Britain was not yet a mature or grown up country.......... :'(
Everywhere is 'staunchly capitalist', remember that a large reason why Scandinavian countries can afford higher welfare bills are their rich reserves of natural resources, an important point to consider.

I spoke to some Indian aguy a few years back who said Norway, which is noted for its high standard of living, is actually a nice place if you can get over the more or less overt institutional cultural and to a lesser extent, racial superiority that exists at mostly every level of its culture!

And I've found that German companies value their employees, here we treat some workers like cannon fodder and demand loyalty and respect without offering it in return, both are of these British traits are a guarantee of poor productivity and sloppy work.

I'm just glad you didn't call the Scandinavian countries socialist. ;-)

They can still run into trouble too though, look at Iceland. Nowhere is immune from capitalism, everywhere in the Western world has more or less the same social ills etc etc, nowhere exists in a bubble.

PS: There are a lot of fascinating things about German culture I agree with the general gist here, they certainly are a lot more efficient than us, I know it's a cliche but it's effing true
Read about how Sweden dealt with the financial crisis and compare it to how we dealt with it, they protected their society from it and we dumped the bill for it directly onto the taxpayer.

Iceland to it's eternal credit did not cave into international bullying and declared the debts of private banks were not the responsibility of the taxpayer, it also jailed several bankers and confiscated the assets of several more, unthinkable here of course, Iceland has recovered and is doing nicely once again, even the parasitical IMF has stated as much.
Edited by Tigger, Oct 7 2014, 08:31 PM.
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Steve K
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Iceland acted like an unprincipled double crossing thief
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Heinrich
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 04:34 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 04:15 PM
jeevesnwooster
Oct 7 2014, 01:57 PM
Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 12:22 PM
Buddy, can you spare a dime?

Posted Image
That and 90% of the million-times-worse-off around the world, at least a homeless man in a Western world town has the chance of getting a square meal in a day.

Begging is illegal ,especially as so many beggers like the one depicted are making up to £200 a day., and treat it like a fulltime job.
Why are you replying to me?

I didn't post the picture, Heinrich did
To be fair to Tytoalba, johnofgwent attributed the picture to you, jeevesnwooster, in post #53.
Edited by Heinrich, Oct 7 2014, 08:33 PM.
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Tigger
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Steve K
Oct 7 2014, 08:29 PM
Iceland acted like an unprincipled double crossing thief
We've disagreed on this before, but then our banking sector also acted like double crossing thieves as well but we seemed to overlook that........

And in other news bank deposits of up to one million quid are now protected by the taxpayer, up from the previous £85k. It seems the "thieving" banks who complained it would hurt their business if they had to hold larger reserves to compensate savers have once again got you and me to underwrite their gambling habits.

No hint of Iceland here...........
Edited by Tigger, Oct 7 2014, 08:37 PM.
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jeevesnwooster
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Mate, they're all bloody parasites, just because the Capitalism over in a handful of Scandinavian countries is a bit less ruthless thanks to years of more social welfare based on vast natural resources we can only dream of, does not really mean they have a conscience.

I'm sure if we had their generous amounts of natural resources we'd be a bit better off too, I've thought about going off to one of those countries but frankly the cold is very detrimental to my health, I fear the worst could happen so definitely not for me.
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Steve K
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Tigger
Oct 7 2014, 08:36 PM
Steve K
Oct 7 2014, 08:29 PM
Iceland acted like an unprincipled double crossing thief
We've disagreed on this before, but then our banking sector also acted like double crossing thieves as well but we seemed to overlook that........

And in other news bank deposits of up to one million quid are now protected by the taxpayer, up from the previous £85k. It seems the "thieving" banks who complained it would hurt their business if they had to hold larger reserves to compensate savers have once again got you and me to underwrite their gambling habits.

No hint of Iceland here...........
It was Iceland the state that acted like a double crossing unprincipled thief. Their banks were just woefully incompetent - like many of ours were.

And you are grossly misrepresenting that latest proposal, the extension to £1M is ONLY to cover transitory items like house buying monies that right now have a horrible short term vulnerability for ordinary people potentially left with a massive mortgage, no house and the money gone. BTW seems we are doing this to comply with an EU directive.

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