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What can 1914 tell us about 2014?; Old world decline, rogue empires, killing for God – looking at 1914, there are many uncomfortable parallells with today
Topic Started: Oct 5 2014, 12:27 PM (367 Views)
jeevesnwooster
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http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/1914-to-2014

Good article I'd say.

Just a shame it leaves out the FACT that the working-class brought world war I to a halt through mass strikes that economically crippled all world powers, it also admonishes Germany of a bit too much blame, although reasonably points out that our idiot politicians continue to try and justify WWI on religious and moral grounds. Pause for thought
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 5 2014, 08:23 PM.
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papasmurf
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Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
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Heinrich
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The premise of the article, that the USA today is like England was a hundred years ago, a democratic superpower with a government answerable to a legislature and subject to removable by an election, is false on several points but particularly in the belief that the United States Executive is answerable to Congress. Neither are any members of the Executive elected except for the President who belongs to either the Democratic or Republican parties. Through the Whip system, the English government party is also answerable to no one.
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jeevesnwooster
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If anything WWI opened up the playing ground and allowed the working-class to be distinctly heard, the upper-class ultimately won however so not sure about cut to ribbons, given a good kicking maybe.

I agree with what you're saying Heinrich, but still think there are a lot of poignant parallels in the article.

Being German what are your thoughts on German social-democracy and the SPD in Weimar Germany? I thought that aspect of the article was interesting, it approaches it from a slightly different perspective to most
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The Buccaneer
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papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
What an insensitive, scumbag and downright offensive thing to say. No wonder some posters despise some of your similarly tainted political opinions.
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papasmurf
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The Buccaneer
Oct 5 2014, 03:28 PM
What an insensitive, scumbag and downright offensive thing to say. No wonder some posters despise some of your similarly tainted political opinions.
I was merely countering the extreme nastiness of an earlier post. (I was also being factually accurate.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836

Some 12% of the British army's ordinary soldiers were killed during the war, compared with 17% of its officers. Eton alone lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served. UK wartime Prime Minister Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers, another brother of his was terribly wounded, and an uncle was captured.
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Alberich
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Did the working class "bring world war 1 to an end?" There was I thinking that a blockaded and starving German home front, added to catastrophic losses on the western front, brough that nation to its knees. It's politicians who start wars, and even today we have learned nothing in that respect. And it is politicians who end wars...when they are forced to!
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Steve K
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The Buccaneer
Oct 5 2014, 03:28 PM
papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
What an insensitive, scumbag and downright offensive thing to say. No wonder some posters despise some of your similarly tainted political opinions.
seconded

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Stan Still
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The Buccaneer
Oct 5 2014, 03:28 PM
papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
What an insensitive, scumbag and downright offensive thing to say. No wonder some posters despise some of your similarly tainted political opinions.
What do you expect from a hate filled blame someone else for everything class warrior.
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Heinrich
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 5 2014, 03:14 PM
If anything WWI opened up the playing ground and allowed the working-class to be distinctly heard, the upper-class ultimately won however so not sure about cut to ribbons, given a good kicking maybe.

I agree with what you're saying Heinrich, but still think there are a lot of poignant parallels in the article.

Being German what are your thoughts on German social-democracy and the SPD in Weimar Germany? I thought that aspect of the article was interesting, it approaches it from a slightly different perspective to most
Forgive me, jeevesnwooster, but the long article was rambling all over history and geography and I began to get a pain in my head. I did not find the part you are referring to. I really think the editor should have insisted the writer exercise discipline.
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Steve K
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 5 2014, 12:27 PM
http://www.newstatesman.com/2014/01/1914-to-2014

Good article I'd say.

Just a shame it leaves out the FACT that the working-class brought world war I to a halt through mass strikes that economically crippled all world powers, it also admonishes Germany of a bit too much blame, although reasonably points out that our idiot politicians are continue to try and justify WWI on religious and moral grounds. Pause for thought
Good article.

And an interesting theory you have there however not many (any?)historians support it. Yes nations had industrial unrest but Germany was always going to lose to the allies in any seriously protracted war being so outnumbered and eventually out industrialised.

Like WW2 their defeat was assured when they took on one big nation too many and once the allies started working together. When new weapons increasingly supplanted the defensive weapons that dominated arsenals in 1914, it all collapsed rather quickly. Germany bet the farm on U Boats and increasingly desperate attempts to seize Paris. They lost.

As for the start of war would you really condemn the UK for pledging to protect Belgium and then honouring that pledge? The big dishonour surely goes to Austria for its expansionist agenda and the incompetence award to Germany for backing Austria to the hilt. They should have just let Russia and Austria fight their little Serbian war.
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somersetli
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Alberich
Oct 5 2014, 03:52 PM
Did the working class "bring world war 1 to an end?" There was I thinking that a blockaded and starving German home front, added to catastrophic losses on the western front, brough that nation to its knees. It's politicians who start wars, and even today we have learned nothing in that respect. And it is politicians who end wars...when they are forced to!
No, the entry of the United States into that war brought about its final end.
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Pro Veritas
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What does 1914 tell us about 2014?

That as a species we are collectively as dumb as f**k and seemingly incapable of learning from the very obvious mistakes of the past.

All The Best
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jeevesnwooster
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Some historians do paint this picture, there were mass revolts by army men and sailors.

Have a read:

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/world-war/1240

One can safely conclude that if it weren't for the heroic actions of working-class socialists in Germany, the German people would have endured more trauma than we can possibly imagine. We should be thankful for the actions of the left-wing social democrats if anything.

Soldiers refusing to take part in any further trench warfare and open rebellions against military order became pretty commonplace as the war progressed, as I[m sure you all know. The biggest British mutiny was in Etaples, France.

Regarding strikes during WWI , you are right to say they conly occurred pre and post WWI.

The distraction, glorification of WWI and the weight of patriotism was a big factor in ending all pre-war industrial unrest in Allied nations. But afterwards, once again the working-class definitely made its voice heard.
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 5 2014, 08:53 PM.
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Tigger
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 5 2014, 08:52 PM
Some historians do paint this picture, there were mass revolts by army men and sailors.

Have a read:

http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/world-war/1240

One can safely conclude that if it weren't for the heroic actions of working-class socialists in Germany, the German people would have endured more trauma than we can possibly imagine. We should be thankful for the actions of the left-wing social democrats if anything.

Soldiers refusing to take part in any further trench warfare and open rebellions against military order became pretty commonplace as the war progressed, as I[m sure you all know. The biggest British mutiny was in Etaples, France.

Regarding strikes during WWI , you are right to say they conly occurred pre and post WWI.

The distraction, glorification of WWI and the weight of patriotism was a big factor in ending all pre-war industrial unrest in Allied nations. But afterwards, once again the working-class definitely made its voice heard.
I can't say that I'm a huge fan of revisionist history myself, in my opinion you can only get the true picture from trying to interpret past events through the eyes and experiences of those who lived through them, saying that those who forget history are doomed to make the same mistakes is also rather dubious at times, because despite the mistakes of the past it's invariably "different this time".

We can often see how we have arrived at where we are,seeing where we are going is something else entirely.
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jeevesnwooster
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That's not revisionist history though is it, it's based on events that really happened, if you take issue with it you have to say exactly what has been said that's revisionist?

Those who forget history are indeed doomed to repeat its mistakes, haven't ever seen someone deny that to be honest
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 5 2014, 09:34 PM.
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Tigger
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 5 2014, 09:34 PM
That's not revisionist history though is it, it's based on events that really happened, if you take issue with it you have to say exactly what has been said that's revisionist?

Those who forget history are indeed doomed to repeat its mistakes, haven't ever seen someone deny that to be honest
My post was self explanatory I'll not repeat my points again, nor will I finish on a tired cliche like you did......
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jeevesnwooster
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I'm not asking you to repeat your points again, I'm asking you to explain what part of what I posted is supposedly revisionist.

And that saying may well be tired and a cliche, but it's definitely true.
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Tigger
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jeevesnwooster
Oct 6 2014, 07:21 PM
I'm not asking you to repeat your points again, I'm asking you to explain what part of what I posted is supposedly revisionist.

And that saying may well be tired and a cliche, but it's definitely true.
The working class did not bring Germany to the negotiating table, imminent invasion and the threat of mass starvation plus the likely consequences of this did.

And you'll find that those who "remember" history are more likely to repeat it's errors, bad blood and the drawing of the wrong conclusions all conspire to start new conflicts. History is often used as an excuse or justification not a lesson in objectivity.
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jeevesnwooster
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Tigger
Oct 6 2014, 07:38 PM


"The working class did not bring Germany to the negotiating table, imminent invasion and the threat of mass starvation plus the likely consequences of this did."

I haven't disputed those as huge factors. But ultimately I take issue with the fact that it was JUST those factors that brought Germany to the negotiating table.

The German ruling class openly proved that they would extract every ounce of blood out of the German people, they fully expected to win the war at any cost, I think history shows that to be true all the way til the end.

Now, you could say the threat of imminent invasion and mass starvation drove the working-class to turn on their ruling class and I'd agree with that, in that sense you may be right. Either way I wouldn't say my point of view is "revisionist" because I haven't essentially denied any factual evidence, nor have I 'revised' any factual evidence.


Quote:
 
And you'll find that those who "remember" history are more likely to repeat it's errors, bad blood and the drawing of the wrong conclusions all conspire to start new conflicts. History is often used as an excuse or justification not a lesson in objectivity.


I agree with all of that.

Don't think it conflicts though. Learning from mistakes in the past has always been an essential part of human progress.
Edited by jeevesnwooster, Oct 6 2014, 08:06 PM.
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
but it did so at the cost of rather more of the others.

How many realise Lady Chatterley's Lover was actually the tale of a monster tax fiddle ?
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
In the first WW, the country lost its cream of the population of all classes, and we are paying the price of their loss still.; The upper class were in the forefront of that . The life of a second Luetenant was measured in days, both on the ground and in the air.

Dont decry them for a consequence of the privelige of their birth and the bravery they showed, for that would be shameful and I, for one resent your unthinking remark
I have been reading the stories of some of some of the Battle of Britain Pilots, and most of them were from university backgrounds and the middle classes. Their bravery and sacrifice was outstanding. One of heir books is called A Willingness to die, and another. Nine lives.
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Heinrich
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 10:40 AM
papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
In the first WW, the country lost its cream of the population of all classes, and we are paying the price of their loss still.; The upper class were in the forefront of that . The life of a second Luetenant was measured in days, both on the ground and in the air.

Dont decry them for a consequence of the privelige of their birth and the bravery they showed, for that would be shameful and I, for one resent your unthinking remark
I have been reading the stories of some of some of the Battle of Britain Pilots, and most of them were from university backgrounds and the middle classes. Their bravery and sacrifice was outstanding. One of heir books is called A Willingness to die, and another. Nine lives.
Do continue your reading, Tytoalbe; It is a myth that the Battle of Britain RAF pilots were mostly upper class former private schoolboys. In fact, of the 2900 fighter pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain, ("The Few"), only 200 went to private schools. The bulk came from humble or grammar school backgrounds and 20 per cent were of foreign nationality - including Czechs, Poles, Americans and Canadians.
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Tytoalba
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Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 01:03 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 10:40 AM
papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
In the first WW, the country lost its cream of the population of all classes, and we are paying the price of their loss still.; The upper class were in the forefront of that . The life of a second Luetenant was measured in days, both on the ground and in the air.

Dont decry them for a consequence of the privelige of their birth and the bravery they showed, for that would be shameful and I, for one resent your unthinking remark
I have been reading the stories of some of some of the Battle of Britain Pilots, and most of them were from university backgrounds and the middle classes. Their bravery and sacrifice was outstanding. One of heir books is called A Willingness to die, and another. Nine lives.
Do continue your reading, Tytoalbe; It is a myth that the Battle of Britain RAF pilots were mostly upper class former private schoolboys. In fact, of the 2900 fighter pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain, ("The Few"), only 200 went to private schools. The bulk came from humble or grammar school backgrounds and 20 per cent were of foreign nationality - including Czechs, Poles, Americans and Canadians.
Only 200? Perhaps a case for bringing back grammar schools.
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 06:25 PM
Heinrich
Oct 7 2014, 01:03 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 7 2014, 10:40 AM
papasmurf
Oct 5 2014, 12:53 PM
Look on the bright side, the 1st World War cut the upper class to ribbons.
In the first WW, the country lost its cream of the population of all classes, and we are paying the price of their loss still.; The upper class were in the forefront of that . The life of a second Luetenant was measured in days, both on the ground and in the air.

Dont decry them for a consequence of the privelige of their birth and the bravery they showed, for that would be shameful and I, for one resent your unthinking remark
I have been reading the stories of some of some of the Battle of Britain Pilots, and most of them were from university backgrounds and the middle classes. Their bravery and sacrifice was outstanding. One of heir books is called A Willingness to die, and another. Nine lives.
Do continue your reading, Tytoalbe; It is a myth that the Battle of Britain RAF pilots were mostly upper class former private schoolboys. In fact, of the 2900 fighter pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain, ("The Few"), only 200 went to private schools. The bulk came from humble or grammar school backgrounds and 20 per cent were of foreign nationality - including Czechs, Poles, Americans and Canadians.
Only 200? Perhaps a case for bringing back grammar schools.
Perhaps you should have attended one given your tendency to make statements without bothering to check the facts?

The Battle of Britain film was entertainment not a documentary.........
Edited by Tigger, Oct 7 2014, 06:43 PM.
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And Then
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Pro Veritas
Oct 5 2014, 07:07 PM
What does 1914 tell us about 2014?

That as a species we are collectively as dumb as f**k and seemingly incapable of learning from the very obvious mistakes of the past.

All The Best
Wow... I finally found something we can agree on unreservedly.
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Gnikkk
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I recall 1978 when I went to university and discovered young labour supporters who were belligerent in all respects. Little has changed.
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