Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Uk Debate Mk 2, the UK's liveliest political and social debate site.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Ukip come within 600 votes of having TWO MP's at Westminster
Topic Started: Oct 10 2014, 05:46 AM (1,258 Views)
johnofgwent
Member Avatar
It .. It is GREEN !!
[ *  *  *  * ]
Blessed are the alarm clocks that wake your missus, for they allow you first peck at the juicy headline ...

I wake this morning to find that Clacton has a UKIP Member of Parliament.

That isn't all that surprising, the man was clearly unhappy at Cameron's leadership, and over fifty per cent of the electorate turned out to demonstrate that they are not happy with him either, to the tune of a twelve thousand majority over the "official concervative and unionist party candidate" with the others in the running reduced to the status not so much of "also rans" but more "did they bother to leave the starting gate ?"

What I find most entertaining, coming as I do from a constituency where the sitting (L:abour) MP has pissed her 10,000 + majority up the wall and wonlast time by a mere 1000 votes on a turnout higher than it has been for a while, is that the OTHER by election, in a constituency LABOUR have held comfortably since it was created in 1983, a by-election caused not by political discontent but by the death of the sitting MP, UKIP came to within SIX HUNDRED VOTES of winning. LABOUR held the seat with 11,600 and something the UKIP's Eleven Thousand.

I shall REALLY enjoy voting UKIP in May 2015 in Newport East.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:43 PM
Alberich
Oct 13 2014, 03:24 PM


Well argued, PV. You are SO right. Our parliament is neutered by our membership of the E.U. The areas in which we have independence of action are few and far between, and in those areas which are crying out for solutions, we cannot do a thing as long as we remain tied to the E.U.
Spoken like a true ignoramus who has never even bothered to look behind lurid tabloid reports! ;D

Truly risible..........
Spoken by someone who is seemingly incapable of disproving the claims so resorts to the usual. Such comments add nothing to the debate.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
RJD
Member Avatar
Prudence and Thrift
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
I sometime wonder why relatively young and Worldly unwise Plumbers from the NE are so scared of being away from the centre of the big herd. But after about millisecond the Penny drops. Tiger you are the little Englander.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
RJD
Oct 13 2014, 05:56 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
I sometime wonder why relatively young and Worldly unwise Plumbers from the NE are so scared of being away from the centre of the big herd. But after about millisecond the Penny drops. Tiger you are the little Englander.
The big herd is where the action is, ever noticed that? Almost certainly not.

You may well find the prospect of being put out to pasture appealing and the eventual appearance of the vet with his smooth bore pistol rather comforting when the World gets a bit too much for you, but whatever you do don't confuse your own lack of wisdom for common sense..........
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
somersetli
Member Avatar
somersetli
[ *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
I don't think that you meant "economic implications", I think you meant as soon as "the frighteners" are put on people would vote no.
However, all this is jumping the gun because if Labour are elected next year there won't be a referendum anyway.

Let's assume though that the Conservative party is re-elected and Cameron cannot get certain powers repatriated to Westminster. The Tory government might decide to leave the EU without a referendum at all. Remember, it is they themselves who say our membership conditions need changing. Why would you stay in if those conditions cannot be altered?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
somersetli
Oct 13 2014, 06:46 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
I don't think that you meant "economic implications", I think you meant as soon as "the frighteners" are put on people would vote no.
However, all this is jumping the gun because if Labour are elected next year there won't be a referendum anyway.

Let's assume though that the Conservative party is re-elected and Cameron cannot get certain powers repatriated to Westminster. The Tory government might decide to leave the EU without a referendum at all. Remember, it is they themselves who say our membership conditions need changing. Why would you stay in if those conditions cannot be altered?
How nice of you to put words in my mouth, unfortunately for you I am not four years old. :)

Economic implications there will be make no mistake about that old timer, and to have a grown up conversation about Europe we need the truth spelt out and many are unwilling to hear that particular message.........
Edited by Tigger, Oct 13 2014, 06:51 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
I have no hesitation in saying that I would vote for a BNP candidate. The BNP as have all other parties, has worn many different clothes, some that fit badly with me, some that did not.

Why I would welcome a return to force of the BNP can be stated in a short sentence. They are the only anti-establishment party out there.

Edited by Affa, Oct 13 2014, 08:20 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 12:08 PM
What I do know is that many including yourself are fixated on blaming the EU, immigration and the allegedly the loss of sovereignty for the majority of our ills, you see PV many of the chronic problems the UK suffers from are self inflicted, the problems will not go away with a Brexit in fact they'll be magnified even further and with the addition of a whole host of new economic problems to contend with.

So what happens when the euphoria of a Brexit evaporates and the British public realise they've been hoodwinked yet again? Doesn't bare thinking about does it............
Its not about blame, or loss of sovereignty - real or alleged.

Its about understanding cause and effect.

Which part of this chain of causes and effects is wrong:

Quote:
 
The economy can't be fixed until we get a handle on welfare spending.
We can't get a handle on welfare spending until unemployment decreases and wages significantly increase.
Neither of those will happen as long as we have uncontrolled and unsustainable levels of immigration.
We can't fix immigration until we deal with the EU issue.


Which step in that quite clearly explained chain of events is wrong? Why is it wrong?

You have discussed the downward pressures caused by unsustainable immigration in the labour market yourself.

So why is it that when I take that discussion to the ONLY logical conclusion possible that it suddenly becomes a problem for you?

Our economy suffers from too low tax take and too high tax spending on employment related welfare.
That is caused by too high unemployment and too low wages.
They are caused by a glut of unskilled and semiskilled labour.
That glut is almost entirely immigration driven.
We can't even begin adequately address the immigration issue as long as we remain a part of the EU on current terms.

Every single step I laid out there is a fact.

The ONLY logical conclusion that addresses the facts as we know them is that the problems our economy faces are problems directly related to our membership of the EU.

Thus the "its the economy stupid" is actually a "its the EU stupid".

And more and more people are realising this every day, and that is in part why the Liberals have seen their support decimated.

All The Best
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.
Employers like cheap, over-subscribed employment markets?

There's a shock.

Short term profiteering trumps long term stability again.

Hang on, isn't that something you normally decry?

Why support it now... ...oh, because its the EU.

How clever of you... ...not.

All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, Oct 13 2014, 08:49 PM.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 12:08 PM
Pro Veritas
Oct 12 2014, 10:48 PM
Tigger
Oct 12 2014, 08:20 PM
I suspect you are kidding yourself.

Europe is a long way down on the shopping list for most voters, the economy, education and the NHS are all well above Europe in terms of importance.
No one falls for this crap anymore Tigger and you know it.

The economy can't be fixed until we get a handle on welfare spending.
We can't get a handle on welfare spending until unemployment decreases and wages significantly increase.
Neither of those will happen as long as we have uncontrolled and unsustainable levels of immigration.
We can't fix immigration until we deal with the EU issue.

Thus "the economy" is an EU issue.

Likewise education: can't be fixed until we get some control over class sizes, class sizes can't be fixed as long as the number of required school places keeps on increasing as it does, and that will keep on increasing until we fix immigration. Thus education is an EU issue.

Now, when it comes to the EU you've always advocated that we have a properly informed debate; so why seek to misinform that debate now with these oft repeated, and oft rebuked lies?

Economy
Education
Housing
Welfare
Living Costs

All issues significantly caused or adversely affected by our continued membership of the EU.

More and more working class people are starting to see through the deliberate misinformation and realise that; and that is why UKIP are picking up more votes from Labour than they are the Tories.

All The Best
What I do know is that many including yourself are fixated on blaming the EU, immigration and the allegedly the loss of sovereignty for the majority of our ills, you see PV many of the chronic problems the UK suffers from are self inflicted, the problems will not go away with a Brexit in fact they'll be magnified even further and with the addition of a whole host of new economic problems to contend with.

So what happens when the euphoria of a Brexit evaporates and the British public realise they've been hoodwinked yet again? Doesn't bare thinking about does it............
seconded

Pro V's thesis has the fatal flaw that you cannot cut off all that influx from the EU and still retain all the jobs involved in our trade to the EU and the wider markets it's strength levers.

Swings and roundabouts Pro V
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 08:53 PM
Pro V's thesis has the fatal flaw that you cannot cut off all that influx from the EU and still retain all the jobs involved in our trade to the EU and the wider markets it's strength levers.

Swings and roundabouts Pro V
I have never advocated that we break trade ties with the EU; and no one with an IQ sufficient to discuss this issue properly believes for one second that the EU would give up access to 60+ Million consumers if we did leave.

Our balance of trade with the EU demonstrates beyond doubt that the EU needs that trade more than we do.

And I have no problem whatsoever with controlled and sustainable immigration, from the EU or the rest of the world, being used as a stopgap short-term solution to genuine skills gaps.

But that is NOT the kind of immigration deal we have with the EU, is it?

And it may be partly true to say that the immigration deal we do have is partly because that is what the government of the day (whichever party that is) wants. The Tories was more of the same immigration to drive down wages, drive up house prices and undermine workers' rights; Labour wants more of the same immigration to create a larger pool of "client voters" who will forever be indebted to Labour and so will always vote Labour.

Either way the British Citizen working man or woman is getting raped, every day.

And if the ONLY way to stop our governments using current immigration trends as a political bludgeon is to leave the EU and take that "convenient excuse for doing nothing about immigration" away from them then I am of the, carefully considered, opinion that in the medium and long term the British Citizen will be better off because of it.


All The Best
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
somersetli
Member Avatar
somersetli
[ *  *  * ]
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 06:49 PM
somersetli
Oct 13 2014, 06:46 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 05:37 PM
Why do anti Europe posters believe or assume that a referendum will result in a "Yes" vote to leave the EU. ?

A comprehensive poll by YouGov in 2010 showed that 47% would vote to leave, 33% would vote to stay, and 19% are either undecided or would not vote.

But that comprehensive poll also found some other very interesting findings

Time it seems, is running out for Eurosceptics

The most Eurosceptic people in the UK are the over 60s age group, with the 18 - 24 age group been very pro European.

Also, history teaches us that voting intentions always change during and after a campaign, as happened in Scotland recently, the pro Europeans have been largely silent, almost all the shouting (so far) has been by those who want the status quo to change, in other words Nigel Farage, UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory Party and the Daily Mail.

Leaving the EU is not a foregone conclusion following a long campaign where the issues will be thrashed out
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.

I sometimes wonder what the elderly right wing contingent on here have running through their minds with the rosy picture they paint of a UK cut adrift and on the receiving end of the World's trading blocs, one thing is certain though if our politicians are as ignorant and as poorly informed as these forum duffers we will be well and truly stuffed in the event of an exit.
I don't think that you meant "economic implications", I think you meant as soon as "the frighteners" are put on people would vote no.
However, all this is jumping the gun because if Labour are elected next year there won't be a referendum anyway.

Let's assume though that the Conservative party is re-elected and Cameron cannot get certain powers repatriated to Westminster. The Tory government might decide to leave the EU without a referendum at all. Remember, it is they themselves who say our membership conditions need changing. Why would you stay in if those conditions cannot be altered?
How nice of you to put words in my mouth, unfortunately for you I am not four years old. :)

Economic implications there will be make no mistake about that old timer, and to have a grown up conversation about Europe we need the truth spelt out and many are unwilling to hear that particular message.........
I do not know if you ever talk to people about the European Union, but if you do perhaps you should pause for a while and try listening to them as well.

You will find that most people need no convincing of the advantages of the economic union, but are not happy with the political consequences of it.
Whatever government is elected next year, people will expect that government to run this country without interference from a supranational European authority overseeing it.

I stand by what I have posted before. The European Union was a good idea ruined by political ambition.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 13 2014, 08:46 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM
As soon as the economic implications are spelt out it is a foregone conclusion that the UK will stay in the EU, just about anyone in business can see this which is why a recent poll reported that 90% of those involved in manufacturing would like to stay in.
Employers like cheap, over-subscribed employment markets?

There's a shock.

Short term profiteering trumps long term stability again.

Hang on, isn't that something you normally decry?

Why support it now... ...oh, because its the EU.

How clever of you... ...not.

All The Best
Wrong again! You forgot the selling of your wares to Europe in the single market that is currently tariff free, that would of course be a thing of the past after a Brexit, then there are other benefits like the various organisations that can put you in touch with like minded firms that help promote trade, why even I've taken advantage of this with my comical attempts at Danish and German! Sadly playing the downtrodden worker cuts no ice in this instance. Co operation works belligerence does not.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
somersetli
Oct 13 2014, 10:06 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 06:49 PM
somersetli
Oct 13 2014, 06:46 PM
Tigger
Oct 13 2014, 05:52 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I don't think that you meant "economic implications", I think you meant as soon as "the frighteners" are put on people would vote no.
However, all this is jumping the gun because if Labour are elected next year there won't be a referendum anyway.

Let's assume though that the Conservative party is re-elected and Cameron cannot get certain powers repatriated to Westminster. The Tory government might decide to leave the EU without a referendum at all. Remember, it is they themselves who say our membership conditions need changing. Why would you stay in if those conditions cannot be altered?
How nice of you to put words in my mouth, unfortunately for you I am not four years old. :)

Economic implications there will be make no mistake about that old timer, and to have a grown up conversation about Europe we need the truth spelt out and many are unwilling to hear that particular message.........
I do not know if you ever talk to people about the European Union, but if you do perhaps you should pause for a while and try listening to them as well.

You will find that most people need no convincing of the advantages of the economic union, but are not happy with the political consequences of it.
Whatever government is elected next year, people will expect that government to run this country without interference from a supranational European authority overseeing it.

I stand by what I have posted before. The European Union was a good idea ruined by political ambition.
I'm a regular business visitor to both Germany and Denmark I do not recognise the descriptions of Europe that many on here seem to have, Europe is of course not without it's problems but they are overstated and blown out of all proportion by Brits who still live in the 19th century, on the other hand many continentals see the UK as politically unstable, afflicted with a boom and bust economic mentality and an every man for himself mindset, and I'd best not mention the fair weather friends bit..........
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 13 2014, 09:08 PM
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 08:53 PM
Pro V's thesis has the fatal flaw that you cannot cut off all that influx from the EU and still retain all the jobs involved in our trade to the EU and the wider markets it's strength levers.

Swings and roundabouts Pro V
I have never advocated that we break trade ties with the EU; and no one with an IQ sufficient to discuss this issue properly believes for one second that the EU would give up access to 60+ Million consumers if we did leave.

Our balance of trade with the EU demonstrates beyond doubt that the EU needs that trade more than we do.

And I have no problem whatsoever with controlled and sustainable immigration, from the EU or the rest of the world, being used as a stopgap short-term solution to genuine skills gaps.

But that is NOT the kind of immigration deal we have with the EU, is it?

And it may be partly true to say that the immigration deal we do have is partly because that is what the government of the day (whichever party that is) wants. The Tories was more of the same immigration to drive down wages, drive up house prices and undermine workers' rights; Labour wants more of the same immigration to create a larger pool of "client voters" who will forever be indebted to Labour and so will always vote Labour.

Either way the British Citizen working man or woman is getting raped, every day.

And if the ONLY way to stop our governments using current immigration trends as a political bludgeon is to leave the EU and take that "convenient excuse for doing nothing about immigration" away from them then I am of the, carefully considered, opinion that in the medium and long term the British Citizen will be better off because of it.


All The Best
Your entire post smacks of holding a gun to your own head and hoping that the bullet passes through your skull and ricochets enough to hit your opposing number in the foot!

There is only one long term winner in Britain leaving the EU and trying to lay down the law to Europe, and it ain't Britain, there is very little that we make or do that they cannot source locally, that does not work in reverse I'm afraid to say. And if you think the business lobby in this country is going to be easily weaned off of cheap labour by any future government of the centre right then think again, the new immigrants will almost certainly have darker skins next time.
Edited by Tigger, Oct 13 2014, 10:29 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 13 2014, 09:08 PM
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 08:53 PM
Pro V's thesis has the fatal flaw that you cannot cut off all that influx from the EU and still retain all the jobs involved in our trade to the EU and the wider markets it's strength levers.

Swings and roundabouts Pro V
I have never advocated that we break trade ties with the EU; and no one with an IQ sufficient to discuss this issue properly believes for one second that the EU would give up access to 60+ Million consumers if we did leave.

Our balance of trade with the EU demonstrates beyond doubt that the EU needs that trade more than we do.

And I have no problem whatsoever with controlled and sustainable immigration, from the EU or the rest of the world, being used as a stopgap short-term solution to genuine skills gaps.

But that is NOT the kind of immigration deal we have with the EU, is it?

And it may be partly true to say that the immigration deal we do have is partly because that is what the government of the day (whichever party that is) wants. The Tories was more of the same immigration to drive down wages, drive up house prices and undermine workers' rights; Labour wants more of the same immigration to create a larger pool of "client voters" who will forever be indebted to Labour and so will always vote Labour.

Either way the British Citizen working man or woman is getting raped, every day.

And if the ONLY way to stop our governments using current immigration trends as a political bludgeon is to leave the EU and take that "convenient excuse for doing nothing about immigration" away from them then I am of the, carefully considered, opinion that in the medium and long term the British Citizen will be better off because of it.


All The Best
Same old, same old denial

Go on just how do we keep for example our car exports to the EU when they default to a 10% import levy on non EU made cars

The likes of Nissan will already have a plan to move all new car construction out of the UK to Spain

As has been pointed out many times you can't divorce a wife saying she's fat and wasteful and still expect her to take in your ironing. A scorned EU will make damn sure we get no help and meantime we will still need their food with no levies.

So a Brexit may well give us more control over the economy, just it could well be a smaller one with a lowered standard of living.

Even Phoenix One has recognised that our non EU exports have collapsed so that's not going to bail us out either.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 10:28 PM


Even Phoenix One has recognised that our non EU exports have collapsed so that's not going to bail us out either.
Has he!  :o

Best not drive into Swindon tomorrow there might be some hold ups.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
krugerman
Member Avatar
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Nations such as Germany, Denmark or France fully accept that they are actually European nations, and that co-operation between European neighbours is in the very best interests of all.

The UK does not seem to know or understand what is important to us, or where our future interests lie, the idea that the United States is our number 1 partner, and which is 4000 miles away aross the Atlantic is to say the least very least ludicrous.

Some folks in the UK believe that Commonwealth nations are the the future as far as trade is concerned, but all the evidence is pointing to regional trade, trade blocks, the largest trading partner of Canada by a long way is the United States, most of Australia s trade is in Asia and the Pacific.

If a man or woman living in Carlisle or Belfast has to abide by a rule, a law or a regulation decided in Brussels as opposed to London, what actual difference does it make, why does it matter, is it not sensible that 28 neighbouring nations all have the same rules, the same regulations, a level playing field.

Nationality or labels dosent put food on the table, flags and sovereignty does nothing to improve the life of anyone, borders and divisions divide people, they divide business, the way ahead is to get rid of the old ways.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tigger
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
You've a lot more patience than me explaining that lot, those you are preaching to are going by seventy plus year old gut instincts, the brain hardly gets a look in.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Heinrich
Member Avatar
Regular Guy
[ *  *  *  * ]
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 11:03 PM
Nations such as Germany, Denmark or France fully accept that they are actually European nations, and that co-operation between European neighbours is in the very best interests of all.

The UK does not seem to know or understand what is important to us, or where our future interests lie, the idea that the United States is our number 1 partner, and which is 4000 miles away aross the Atlantic is to say the least very least ludicrous.

Some folks in the UK believe that Commonwealth nations are the the future as far as trade is concerned, but all the evidence is pointing to regional trade, trade blocks, the largest trading partner of Canada by a long way is the United States, most of Australia s trade is in Asia and the Pacific.

If a man or woman living in Carlisle or Belfast has to abide by a rule, a law or a regulation decided in Brussels as opposed to London, what actual difference does it make, why does it matter, is it not sensible that 28 neighbouring nations all have the same rules, the same regulations, a level playing field.

Nationality or labels dosent put food on the table, flags and sovereignty does nothing to improve the life of anyone, borders and divisions divide people, they divide business, the way ahead is to get rid of the old ways.
The English never moved into the post-WWII European vision of an ever closer political union, clinging instead to dominance over Scotland, Wales, and North Ireland while proudly proclaiming themselves to be "an island nation" that does not want to be European. They have been left behind while Europe rejects the small-minded and destructive nationalisms which brought only death and destruction as a legacy. There is no modern European leadership in England today. The place is in a political cul-de-sac that is ultimately a bad omen for the people there.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 11:03 PM
Nations such as Germany, Denmark or France fully accept that they are actually European nations, and that co-operation between European neighbours is in the very best interests of all.

As a long standing supporter of the EU, even the Maastricht treaty, it pains me to now see that the EU has become as much Corporate Money influenced/controlled as are most Governments.

As potentially beneficial the EU can be to all, it alas fails to deliver, because of this corruption.
It is first and foremost a Union of and for business. I see nothing amiss with that. The wrongness comes when the EU legislates to permit and encourage profiteering from the creation of a low wage economy - partly through expansionism, and partly through this crisis which I am convinced (have been from day one) that it was 'contrived'.
Another conspiracy theory, some will say - but there are two things never addressed.
One is that debts, and it seems everyone is in debt, have creditors. Who is owed what? We hear how much everyone owes, but not to who.
Secondly, and this is about "all in it together". What sense is there in targetting the lowest paid, those on benefits, the poorest in society in order to correct a budget deficit? How can those that have least be expected to provide these huge debt repayments?
Target the money, those that have most, target business which has continued to make bigger profits, target tax evasion ......... all these would have a bigger effect than Austerity measures have had.
But targeting business, targetting the money is not what this 'contrived' crisis is about - it is about lowering lowering standards of living, about having a low wage economy so that (eventually) Europe can compete with emerging Eastern/Asian economies on wages, in manufacturing. The gap between which is considerably narrower today. South Korea has a Human Development Index rating two below the UK, regarded as very high human development. China is advancing rapidly, considered High human development.

The word not mentioned is 'Globalisation' and the EU is very much part of that enterprise.



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 10:28 PM
Same old, same old denial

Go on just how do we keep for example our car exports to the EU when they default to a 10% import levy on non EU made cars

The likes of Nissan will already have a plan to move all new car construction out of the UK to Spain

As has been pointed out many times you can't divorce a wife saying she's fat and wasteful and still expect her to take in your ironing. A scorned EU will make damn sure we get no help and meantime we will still need their food with no levies.

So a Brexit may well give us more control over the economy, just it could well be a smaller one with a lowered standard of living.

Even Phoenix One has recognised that our non EU exports have collapsed so that's not going to bail us out either.
1) If the EU wants to trade its goods to us without import levies we insist we can trade to the EU without such levies. Its called a Trade Agreement - something that in another thread you seem to think is a good idea.

2) So Nissan moves to Spain - well, we put an import duty on cars sold in the UK but made outside of the UK and they'll soon move back to the UK. You are seemingly ignorant, or dishonest, enough to think that the benefits of free-trade only flow one-way and the pitfalls of non-free-trade only flow one way as well. Real life doesn't work like that,

3) There are far cheaper places for us to import food from than the EU; and the EU needs our money from those imports to be able to keep on subsidising the nations we import from. The EU loses as much from not facilitating that trade then we do. We get to buy cheaper food; the EU gets to see many of its pet projects pulled from lack of funds, and the nations benefitted by those projects begin to question just how much they gain from being in the EU. And Germany's economy slowing down makes each £1 we spend in the EU even more powerful now than ever before.

4) Funny enough everyone I know old enough to remember life before the EU thinks their relative standards of living has decreased through EU membership. So if we have to have a lower standard of living lets at least do it on our terms.

All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, Oct 14 2014, 01:12 AM.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
I don't doubt that the same fools who kept Thatcher in office for ten years and the Tories in office for 18 years are the ones foolish enough to be taken in by UKip.

Sad times ahead.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
krugerman
Member Avatar
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 12:26 AM
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 10:28 PM
Same old, same old denial

Go on just how do we keep for example our car exports to the EU when they default to a 10% import levy on non EU made cars

The likes of Nissan will already have a plan to move all new car construction out of the UK to Spain

As has been pointed out many times you can't divorce a wife saying she's fat and wasteful and still expect her to take in your ironing. A scorned EU will make damn sure we get no help and meantime we will still need their food with no levies.

So a Brexit may well give us more control over the economy, just it could well be a smaller one with a lowered standard of living.

Even Phoenix One has recognised that our non EU exports have collapsed so that's not going to bail us out either.
1) If the EU wants to trade its goods to us without import levies we insist we can trade to the EU without such levies. Its called a Trade Agreement - something that in another thread you seem to think is a good idea.

2) So Nissan moves to Spain - well, we put an import duty on cars sold in the UK but made outside of the UK and they'll soon move back to the UK. You are seemingly ignorant, or dishonest, enough to think that the benefits of free-trade only flow one-way and the pitfalls of non-free-trade only flow one way as well. Real life doesn't work like that,

3) There are far cheaper places for us to import food from than the EU; and the EU needs our money from those imports to be able to keep on subsidising the nations we import from. The EU loses as much from not facilitating that trade then we do. We get to buy cheaper food; the EU gets to see many of its pet projects pulled from lack of funds, and the nations benefitted by those projects begin to question just how much they gain from being in the EU. And Germany's economy slowing down makes each £1 we spend in the EU even more powerful now than ever before.

4) Funny enough everyone I know old enough to remember life before the EU thinks their relative standards of living has decreased through EU membership. So if we have to have a lower standard of living lets at least do it on our terms.

All The Best
(1) Trade and trade agreements are all about a level playing field, it would be unfair if British lamb producers had strict welfare regulations and France did not, it would be unfair if British beef producers had strict hygiene and refrigeration rules, but Spain and Italy did not - Therefore the trade block has the same regulations, implemented by a European wide body.

(2) Most of the cars produced by Nissan in Washington are exported to Europe

Your idea that we could, or should do trade elsewhere is just plain silly, rather like my family shopping in Lincoln, 100 miles away, instead of in the local market town, what s the point to that.
The anti EU argument is a series of excuses, we could do this, we could do that, but co-operating and trading with your neighbours is the common sense way ahead.

The whole world is moving towards trading blocks, South America, Africa, North America, everywhere you look, and they all involve rules and regulations, they have to.

The EU is the most advanced super-national block and union, the rest are playing catch up, if the likes of UKIP got their way, the future would be a world of economic super powers + lottle old Britain on its own, utterly ridiculous.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
krugerman
Oct 14 2014, 08:01 AM
Your idea that we could, or should do trade elsewhere is just plain silly, rather like my family shopping in Lincoln, 100 miles away, instead of in the local market town, what s the point to that.
Well, what's the point of buying cabbage from Eastern Europe when hundreds of tons are ploughed into the ground every year on the Fens?

I'm all for buying as much as possible from local sources: when it comes to vegetables especially that would mean we stop buying from Europe and start buying from Britain.

I'm all for that, are you?

Oh, wait... ...this was another subject you know fuck all about and have just made yourself look stupid over wasn't it?

Typical €urofanatic: preaches and preaches but actually knows less than my dog.

All The Best
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
somersetli
Member Avatar
somersetli
[ *  *  * ]
C-too
Oct 14 2014, 07:40 AM
I don't doubt that the same fools who kept Thatcher in office for ten years and the Tories in office for 18 years are the ones foolish enough to be taken in by UKip.

Sad times ahead.
Plus the same fools who kept the Labour Party in office for 13 years, and are now deserting them for UKIP.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
johnofgwent
Member Avatar
It .. It is GREEN !!
[ *  *  *  * ]
krugerman
Oct 13 2014, 08:57 AM
I am always reluctant to use the term "scum", but in the case of the BNP I have no hesitation in using such terms.
Well that's your privilege.

I personally reserve it for the labour shitebags that allowed the islamic that raped my daughter into the college up the road on a dodgy visa from where he made repeated attemots to seduce the schoolgirls in caerleon comprehensive (and since my wife used to work for the university in question, and i have recordings of the phone calls he made to friends of my younger daughter ... rest assured I KNOW and CAN PROVE what I say ...)

Out of interest, why do you think the Labour Immigration Minister Phil Woolas started saying that the people squatting in "le jungle II" were not entitled to come to britain to claim Asylum as they should have done so as soon as they got to a "safe" country ?

(He was lying of cource, for as the UN has declared us belligerents in the conflict that had sent most of them scurrying away from their homeland, special rules apply forcing us to safeguard them over and above the treaty requirements, but to have admitted THAT would have caused even more grief for the supporter's of Blair's Military Adventurism)
Edited by johnofgwent, Oct 14 2014, 11:44 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
krugerman
Member Avatar
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 09:41 AM
krugerman
Oct 14 2014, 08:01 AM
Your idea that we could, or should do trade elsewhere is just plain silly, rather like my family shopping in Lincoln, 100 miles away, instead of in the local market town, what s the point to that.
Well, what's the point of buying cabbage from Eastern Europe when hundreds of tons are ploughed into the ground every year on the Fens?

I'm all for buying as much as possible from local sources: when it comes to vegetables especially that would mean we stop buying from Europe and start buying from Britain.

I'm all for that, are you?

Oh, wait... ...this was another subject you know fuck all about and have just made yourself look stupid over wasn't it?

Typical €urofanatic: preaches and preaches but actually knows less than my dog.

All The Best
Why ?

Why are hundreds of tons of cabbages ploughed into the ground in the fens ?

I bought a load of vegetables last week at Pocklington market in East Yorkshire, all local, all home grown, superb quality at reasonable prices.

I dont think I have ever seen a cabbage from eastern Europe, even Lidl and Aldi proclaim "British vegetables".





Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
krugerman
Member Avatar
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]
Are we allowed to f****g well swear on the boards now ?

Are we allowed to throw f*****g insults and tantrums ?

And moderators please do not threaten me with either expulsion or suspension, there are plenty of other political blogging sites which do not allow such behaviour.

Edited by krugerman, Oct 14 2014, 02:43 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 12:26 AM
Steve K
Oct 13 2014, 10:28 PM
Same old, same old denial

Go on just how do we keep for example our car exports to the EU when they default to a 10% import levy on non EU made cars

The likes of Nissan will already have a plan to move all new car construction out of the UK to Spain

As has been pointed out many times you can't divorce a wife saying she's fat and wasteful and still expect her to take in your ironing. A scorned EU will make damn sure we get no help and meantime we will still need their food with no levies.

So a Brexit may well give us more control over the economy, just it could well be a smaller one with a lowered standard of living.

Even Phoenix One has recognised that our non EU exports have collapsed so that's not going to bail us out either.
1) If the EU wants to trade its goods to us without import levies we insist we can trade to the EU without such levies. Its called a Trade Agreement - something that in another thread you seem to think is a good idea.
. .

Go on find and post up the quote where I said that. I think you'll find I said I was not in favour of TTIP and the like. But hey ho what's reality compared to your imagination.

Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 12:26 AM
. .2) So Nissan moves to Spain - well, we put an import duty on cars sold in the UK but made outside of the UK and they'll soon move back to the UK. You are seemingly ignorant, or dishonest, enough to think that the benefits of free-trade only flow one-way and the pitfalls of non-free-trade only flow one way as well. Real life doesn't work like that, . . .

Now if you want to throw the insults please do a decent one instead of coming over as a stupid child that's lost its dummy

I know you think those voices in your head know everything but most of would figure the Motor Vehicle Manufacturers themselves know better about the vehicle market. And they think your theory is bollocks, our motor industry cannot survive in a below critical mass market, the EU motor manufacturers won't just survive but thrive without the UK's massive car exports to them.

Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 12:26 AM
. . .3) There are far cheaper places for us to import food from than the EU; and the EU needs our money from those imports to be able to keep on subsidising the nations we import from. The EU loses as much from not facilitating that trade then we do. We get to buy cheaper food; the EU gets to see many of its pet projects pulled from lack of funds, and the nations benefitted by those projects begin to question just how much they gain from being in the EU. And Germany's economy slowing down makes each £1 we spend in the EU even more powerful now than ever before. . .

That'd be the German economy doing far better than ours then. That'd be the world food market that is geared to selling to China then. Go on tell the British population that they have to pay 10% extra for food they import from the EU. See how long before you get lynched

Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 12:26 AM
. .4) Funny enough everyone I know old enough to remember life before the EU thinks their relative standards of living has decreased through EU membership. So if we have to have a lower standard of living lets at least do it on our terms.

All The Best

Yes those black and white valve TVs were so good weren't they and chicken being a rarely affordable luxury. Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Average salary up from £1202 to £24,734 and RPI up from 9.071 to 111.870 (normalised to 2010=100)

Can you do the maths? Well I doubt your thick "everyone I know" crowd can so have a freebie. Real value salaries up by 67% since we joined the EC/EEC/EU

Go on check it yourself: http://www.measuringworth.com/ukearncpi/

So instead of calling me dishonest/ignorant for presenting facts you find awkward why not next time go check a few facts yourself before shooting your ill informed wild arsed guessing mouth off.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Really? Why 1971, living standards fell in 1971.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:14 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Really? Why 1971, living standards fell in 1971.


More job security in 71, easier to buy a house in 71 if you had a decent job too and if you didnt have a decent job or didnt want to buy and lived near a new town council housing was easy to get. More families with only one parent working . Inflation was your friend.
The down side was.. eh..cars were crap and Watneys party 7s .
Quote Post Goto Top
 
Affa
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
gansao
Oct 14 2014, 10:28 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:14 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Really? Why 1971, living standards fell in 1971.



The down side was.. eh..cars were crap and Watneys party 7s .


The Viva wasn't crap, mine kept running right up to it rusting to bits.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Steve K
Member Avatar
Once and future cynic
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:14 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Really? Why 1971, living standards fell in 1971.
year we joined the EC/EEC/EU which is the comparison point Pro V selected
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
papasmurf
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
UKIP really is having problems with it's choice of candidates:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-29626429#

15 October 2014 Last updated at 09:54
UKIP candidate admits animal welfare charges

A candidate in one of UKIP's key target seats for the next general election has admitted six animal welfare charges.

The charges against Cornwall farmer David Evans, 71, of Week St Mary, include keeping sheep in an emaciated state.

Evans was picked to contest Camborne and Redruth, which is currently held by Tory George Eustice with a majority of only 66 votes.

UKIP was unavailable for immediate comment.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Marconi
Member Avatar
Regular Member
[ *  *  * ]

Farageland -- The Clash


Meanwhile things are hotting up in Clacton alright
Ting Tongs in the takeaway, darkies in the night
Boneheads grow their hair a bit, throw away their boots
Cos now they're joining UKIP and they've all got new suits…..

CHORUS
Here comes Farageland (wo ooh ooh)
A place you couldn't stand (wo ooh ooh)

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

Affa
Oct 14 2014, 11:01 PM
gansao
Oct 14 2014, 10:28 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:14 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM
Everyone who can actually read stats knows our living standards are far higher than in 1971.

Really? Why 1971, living standards fell in 1971.



The down side was.. eh..cars were crap and Watneys party 7s .


The Viva wasn't crap, mine kept running right up to it rusting to bits.



Lol. The viva had the performance and comfort of a milk float . Some of the cars I lusted over like the 1600E look embarrassing now !puke!
Quote Post Goto Top
 
C-too
Member Avatar
Honourable Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
somersetli
Oct 14 2014, 11:25 AM
C-too
Oct 14 2014, 07:40 AM
I don't doubt that the same fools who kept Thatcher in office for ten years and the Tories in office for 18 years are the ones foolish enough to be taken in by UKip.

Sad times ahead.
Plus the same fools who kept the Labour Party in office for 13 years, and are now deserting them for UKIP.
Labour were undone by the Tory Voting? so called financial experts in the international financial markets. Before that they were repairing 18 years of social and structural damage done by the Tories.

It seems to me that UKip have a bigger attraction for Tories than for Labour voters, nevertheless, 18 years of callous Conservatism must have had many Labour voters helping to keep them in office. That is a tribute to the power of propaganda. Now we have UKip insinuating a lie of a promised land and having its effect on some would be Labour voters.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tytoalba
Senior Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Oct 15 2014, 09:24 AM
UKIP really is having problems with it's choice of candidates:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-29626429#

15 October 2014 Last updated at 09:54
UKIP candidate admits animal welfare charges

A candidate in one of UKIP's key target seats for the next general election has admitted six animal welfare charges.

The charges against Cornwall farmer David Evans, 71, of Week St Mary, include keeping sheep in an emaciated state.

Evans was picked to contest Camborne and Redruth, which is currently held by Tory George Eustice with a majority of only 66 votes.

UKIP was unavailable for immediate comment.
They opposition are certainly afraid, so resort to digging the dirt, as usual, not addressing the concerns or the politics or the reasons why.
The two candidates standing in the two bye elections, and where one was elected whith a large percentage of the vote, were both elected members of parliament.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Pro Veritas
Upstanding Member
[ *  *  *  * ]
papasmurf
Oct 15 2014, 09:24 AM
UKIP really is having problems with it's choice of candidates:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-29626429#

15 October 2014 Last updated at 09:54
UKIP candidate admits animal welfare charges

A candidate in one of UKIP's key target seats for the next general election has admitted six animal welfare charges.

The charges against Cornwall farmer David Evans, 71, of Week St Mary, include keeping sheep in an emaciated state.

Evans was picked to contest Camborne and Redruth, which is currently held by Tory George Eustice with a majority of only 66 votes.

UKIP was unavailable for immediate comment.
Looks like Labour and the Tories have similar form as well: http://liarsbuggersandthieves.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Animal%20Cruelty

All The Best
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Politics · Next Topic »
Add Reply