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| Farage is right. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM (1,420 Views) | |
| Alberich | Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM Post #1 |
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Alberich
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I note that Farage has attracted some criticism from the usual suspects about his comments on the NHS and newcomers with HIV. He argued that no-one from outside the EU should be allowed to come here and claim treatment under the NHS if they are suffering from an HIV infection, unless they have health insurance and are able to pay. What he is basically saying is that the NHS cannot continue to offer free medical care (especially the very expensive antiretroviral treatment that AIDS requires) to all and sundry on arrival. Africa, as an example, is awash with HIV sufferers, and the attraction of free health care for that illness in the UK is, for many in that continent, overwhelming. Hundreds are already here and being treated....free of charge to them; but not to us. Surely Farage is right. It is self evident. We cannot offer the facilities of the NHS, free of charge, to all who come here; especially those who have illness before they travel to these shores. Nige should be congratulated for stating the bleeding obvious, instead of having the guardianistas throwing up their hands in horror. Good for you, Farage. |
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| RJD | Oct 11 2014, 01:33 PM Post #2 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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The NHS is not a charity. If individuals wish to offer such services free of charges to none EU citizens then they can set up a suitable charity. Far too many use the organs of the State to fund their hobby causes. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 01:40 PM Post #3 |
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Farrage is right but the money and resources the NHS spend treating such people is a drop in the ocean. Now if Farrage is so concerned about the NHS why hasn't he commented on the numerous other and more pressing issues they face? I'd guess that the answer is he is like every other politician in that he doesn't really give a sh1t and is simply saying what he thinks will win him votes. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 11 2014, 04:17 PM Post #4 |
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The money saved could treat hundreds of others that have actually paid their dues, what he is saying is exactly what many have been saying for years the NHS is creaking under the strain. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 04:31 PM Post #5 |
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Stan, like I said I'm sure he is right, but why has he not commented on all the other problems facing the NHS, the ones that can or could impact on thousands or even millions of people rather than just hundreds? What does he have to say about the strain put on the NHS by an increasingly ageing population, the obesity epidemic, the increase in alcohol related illnesses among the under 40 ' s? I daresay these things combined put a hell of a lot more strain on the NHS than foreign hiv patients. But then there is no simple answer for these problems, no feelgood immigration blaming and above all no votes to be gained in discussing them. Farrage is playing you Stan, just like all the others. Edited by Happy Hornet, Oct 11 2014, 04:39 PM.
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| Steve K | Oct 11 2014, 04:45 PM Post #6 |
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Once and future cynic
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Except that is NOT what he said is it. It may be what you wanted him to have said but he did not. Here is the original interview http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/17/inside-maverick-mind-nigel-farage-276175.html
And it was a blanket ban on anyone with HIV no matter what arrangements they had for funding their own treatment or what the net economic position would be. But then with Nigel's legendary ability to make up pretend facts and falsifying maths the concept of having to calculate a net economic position would terrify the average UKIP member shitless. And his plan would scare the NHS shitless too. A recipe for driving more people into hiding HIV status. |
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| jeevesnwooster | Oct 11 2014, 04:51 PM Post #7 |
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҈
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You seem to have nailed his arguments to the wall
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| Stan Still | Oct 11 2014, 04:53 PM Post #8 |
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He is advocating that we get the housekeeping right and his first step towards that is saving the taxpayers of the UK millions of pounds by making those with existing expensive to treat long term ailments have in place medical insurance to pay for their treatment. It is not a new idea, other countries all ready refuse immigrants that will be a drain on their health services entry without having private medical insurance in place, it is common sense. The NHS we the taxpayers are owned millions of pounds by NHS tourists who have failed to pay for the treatment they have had from the NHS, those lost millions would help pay the huge yearly NHS bill. He has not said much on the NHS yet as at this moment in time his party is in its infancy so to speak, what their general election manifesto will be has yet to be announced. Labour as per usual are using the NHS as a political point scoring football, their pre-election promise of millions of more money for the NHS has already been blown out of the water as undeliverable, Farage would be foolish to make similar promises he cannot keep |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 05:03 PM Post #9 |
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Stan, he is commenting on an issue that costs the NHS a tiny fraction of what the issues I listed coats the NHS. So why do you think he is prioritising a relatively minor issue if not because he is doing what Labour is doing, using the NHS as a tool in a cynical vote grabbing exercise? Edited by Happy Hornet, Oct 11 2014, 05:03 PM.
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| Steve K | Oct 11 2014, 05:10 PM Post #10 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well as the Huffington post put it http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/22/nigel-farage-spoof-pub-picture_n_5370890.html |
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| Stan Still | Oct 11 2014, 05:33 PM Post #11 |
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You may consider millions of pounds a tiny fraction I don't, add the millions of pounds that are considered by some to be a drop in the ocean within the welfare system each year, and we loose enough to build a new hospital per year or equip one. I have read his comments from more than one source which differ slightly but when he spoke about immigration he stated more or less in one short sentence if quoted correctly and not out of context that we do not need immigrants with HIV or criminal records but people with skills. He was speaking plainly and frankly which is a refreshing change from a politician IMO he did not go on in depth about the NHS at all as he was answering a question about immigration put to him by a journalist not the NHS. |
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| gee4444 | Oct 11 2014, 05:51 PM Post #12 |
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I don't know how much these migrants cost the NHS but it's a fair point that it cost something. Let's assume, for sake of argument, it's around the £1 billion mark per year (source: The Daily Fail). Now compare that to QE (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/oct/04/quantitative-easing-bank-england) which amounts to £200 billion in just over 2 years. I'd argue the multiples are not to be sniffed at. So the obvious answer is to magic up 1/100th of money used to fill the pockets of the banksters and use it to fund migrant health care. Sorted. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 06:12 PM Post #13 |
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I'm not saying it's an insignificant amount of money, I'm saying that the cost is small COMPARED to the cost of all of the things I listed. Would anyone care to bet that I'm wrong? Now, someone with honest intentions who was genuinely concerned about the NHS would be addressing the biggest causes of strain on the NHS rather than one relatively small source of strain but nonetheless has political capital. I'm genuinely curious where does this idea come from that Farrage is somehow different from other politicians? Edited by Happy Hornet, Oct 11 2014, 06:16 PM.
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| AndyK | Oct 11 2014, 06:37 PM Post #14 |
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To be fair, stimulating the economy is much more important than healthcare, since without the economy there is no heathcare. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 06:51 PM Post #15 |
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Andy, that's true, but then again a healthier population means a more productive workforce 😃 |
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| Affa | Oct 11 2014, 06:56 PM Post #16 |
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Whilst the NHS core principles of :- that it meet the needs of everyone that it be free at the point of delivery that it be based on clinical need, not ability to pay has been abused by foreigners, it nevertheless is not (has not) 'creaking under the strain'. It is finding it more difficult due to limitations in resources, in medical staff, and medical equipment, and money. What you perhaps do not appreciate is that if the NHS were privatised and retained these three principles (as Cameron has avowed), then that in no way eases the cost of health-care migrants. A change in those three principles is required, but not for any with UK citizenship. |
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| RoofGardener | Oct 11 2014, 07:22 PM Post #17 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Hmmm.... it's a bit harsh to criticise Farage for not solving all of the problems at a stroke. He DID say "it would be a good start...". Australia has rules similar to this, as do the USA. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 07:31 PM Post #18 |
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I'm not saying Farrage should solve all of the NHS problems, what I'm saying is that reason he chose to highlight that particular issue was for cynical vote grabbing reasons rather than genuine concern for the NHS. Which for me puts him at the same level as every other politician. Edited by Happy Hornet, Oct 11 2014, 07:31 PM.
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| RoofGardener | Oct 11 2014, 07:43 PM Post #19 |
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Lord of Plantpots
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Well, I dunno.... the basic idea is consistent with the general UKIP ethos of "Britain First", so I struggle to see it as being excessively opportunistic. It wouldn't solve the NHS's problems overnight, but it WOULD take a small amount of pressure off it. (or WOULD it ? I don't actually know what the statistics are ? ). |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 11 2014, 08:36 PM Post #20 |
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So what you're saying is he used it as an opportunity to plug his party rather than as a serious attempt to address the problems facing the NHS? |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 11 2014, 08:57 PM Post #21 |
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As do most other sensible and wealthy countries. All The Best |
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| Tigger | Oct 11 2014, 09:12 PM Post #22 |
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The forums contingent of right wing retards/blame foreigners for our ills/I've paid my dues blah blah will find this post virtually invisible! Just to let you know some of us can see it.
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| Rich | Oct 11 2014, 09:15 PM Post #23 |
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12 years ago, I worked at Battle hospital,(now a Tesco superstore and housing complex) and I was informed by my manager at the time that a certain number of nurses brought in from Africa were HIV but nobody was allowed to know their identities due to the confidentiality act,..............madness? |
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| Steve K | Oct 11 2014, 09:18 PM Post #24 |
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Once and future cynic
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Predictable You should both read that Guardian article Gee posted, it will demolish that little theory of yours that the QE money went to bankers. It went through banks into the economy. Much of it is loans that have to be paid back |
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| Tigger | Oct 12 2014, 09:57 AM Post #25 |
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Well with the imminent prospect of QE being curtailed in the US the markets have already started to get jittery, and it's nice to see those allegedly free markets punishing Europe because of it's failure to extend welfare to bankers in the same way that the UK and US have. I'm afraid to say Steve you've been hoodwinked, QE has papered over the cracks in the economy not filled them in, it's a fact QE has benefited the better of far more than you, me or the wider economy which is still hooked on credit and asset bubbles. Watch the problems mount up as the junkie is denied his fix. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 10:05 AM Post #26 |
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Of course, the left wing retards blame just the bankers. And please, you know my feeling on the banking industry well enough to know that defending bankers is the last thing on my mind. The truth is that QE and Immigration are BOTH applying negative pressures on the living standards of most of us. It is a fact that the NHS can not, and will never be able to, continue treating those who have never paid in. Health Tourism should be stopped immediately - if someone is a visitor to these shores as a tourist, foreign student, or short-term immigrant they should have health insurance; and if they don't no treatment. Newly arrived long-term or permanent immigrants should pay for their use of the NHS for a period of time. The same should apply to ALL aspects of the welfare system. All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Oct 12 2014, 10:06 AM.
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| Tigger | Oct 12 2014, 10:19 AM Post #27 |
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I'm not disagreeing, absolutely not, just taking a side swipe at the venom being vented against people who have barely two pennies to rub together, some of the right wing retards on here find the prospect of a potential billion quid being wasted on foreigners a far bigger deal than the way more expensive bank rescues. I don't know about you but I've had virtually no problems in my life caused by foreigners or outsiders but a seemingly endless stream of trouble from white, middle aged and apparently respectable people in suits. Now that is perspective. Edited by Tigger, Oct 12 2014, 10:20 AM.
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 12 2014, 10:25 AM Post #28 |
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Tigger, as I pointed out on another thread, factors such as the obesity epidemic and an increasingly ageing population place several times the strain on the NHS than health tourism, yet don't seem to attract any "concern" from those who frequently complain about health tourists. |
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| Steve K | Oct 12 2014, 10:26 AM Post #29 |
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Once and future cynic
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Perhaps you should read what I actually posted instead of making some silly story up I don't deny that QE was a bandage solution intended to keep the patient alive in time to fix the real issues, what I was objecting to was you and Gee saying the QE money was put into the bankers own pockets - it wasn't. You and others seem to be setting out to not just ignore the structural fixes applied to banks via the stress tests but deal vicious further internal wounds to our economy by encouraging people to destroy the UK Financial Services industry. Go look up the figures, in a country that has to net import minerals, energy and food and then chooses to net import manufactured goods, the only thing keeping us not just afloat but as a top 10 economy is our Financial Services. No it isn't perfect, no not everyone in it is as honest as the day is long and yes it needs regulation but without it you'd be living in a Bosnia-esque economy. Don't kill the golden goose Edited by Steve K, Oct 12 2014, 10:31 AM.
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 10:35 AM Post #30 |
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And yet where I live 90% of people in low paid jobs are suffering problems caused by "foreigners" - even if indirectly. Immigration is the single biggest downward pressure on living standards in this country. We are awash with cheap labour and not enough jobs. All The Best |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 10:37 AM Post #31 |
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We didn't choose that. Our leaders, in the pocket of the same Financial Services, chose that for us. Can't imagine why, can you? All The Best |
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| Tigger | Oct 12 2014, 10:48 AM Post #32 |
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It's more of a mangey chicken than a golden goose. without rehashing all the old arguments we've had before I'm still waiting for the Government, ONS or whoever to produce some figures that show what this industry takes out before it puts anything back in, I'm afraid to say it's started to look like the clapped out heavy industries of the 1970's what with it's holding us all to ransom and getting unfettered state support. PV's points on this are also worth reading as well. The thing is is can we actually afford it in the long term? I'm highly dubious to say the least, we are of course not invited to view it in the same light as those now defunct metal bashing industries because this is white collar territory. |
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| Steve K | Oct 12 2014, 10:50 AM Post #33 |
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Well yes you have consistently preached a highly isolationist economy. As we've discussed before I can't see that supporting 50% of our population in living standards they would tolerate So either you have the mass disorder and deaths of cutting the population that much or from the riots if you imposed a massive living standards cut. I opt for better, a trading nation that yes does strictly limit immigration but trades in the world with what we're best at. And Financial Services is very much one of those. Edited by Steve K, Oct 12 2014, 10:51 AM.
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| Steve K | Oct 12 2014, 10:58 AM Post #34 |
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We've done this before at the old site and yes people will complain that the source is the City and not the Bridlington workers co-operative but no one has actually rebutted the figures and it still says £60B net annual contribution. We'd be so effed without our Financial Services
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 11:09 AM Post #35 |
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Except I haven't done that at all. But hey, minor detail, right? I've said we need a more robust economy, with a wider base of support. All The Best |
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| RJD | Oct 12 2014, 12:02 PM Post #36 |
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We seem to forget that the services sector has been more important to us than manufacturing for over 100 years. Much has been done by this Gov to correct the mistakes of the previous one in the Financial Services Sector, that not much has taken place with the rest of EU banks and imminent are coordinated "bank war games" to test the UK and USA in the event of further future stress. The UK is in fact leading the way to a new World Order and the EU are navel gazing. This sector is vital for the UK and we do not wish to be stuck with low value added manufacturing. |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 12 2014, 12:03 PM Post #37 |
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He cannot win votes unless people support him and agree with his views, and in a democracy it is about what people think. There are bound to be some who disagree with him. He said we have limited resources with wich to treat our own people , that it is a national health service, not a world health service and we must look after our own first. What is your problem with that? If you want a world wide healt service treating 7billion people than you need to subscribe to one of the charities, but for our own people we allsubscribe to OUR gealthservices with our taxes.Of course if your opposed to Farrage and UKIP as a matter of principle you will not agree with him or his party no matter what he says or how right he may be, and then it becomes your own problem not his. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 12 2014, 12:07 PM Post #38 |
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Thank you I know what the aims of the NHS are and it is struggling to cope with the amount of people it cares for, and money alone will not solve its problems |
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| Steve K | Oct 12 2014, 12:15 PM Post #39 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well you did say this didn't you
Seems you're making way too much of a very narrow distinction because as was pointed out there and then (with no rebut) it'd only be a "socio-economic necessity" if your wish to end food imports was implemented. http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=30113.msg913822;topicseen#msg913822 |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 12 2014, 12:18 PM Post #40 |
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Ty, please read my posts, I have said repeatedly that Farrage is right about health tourists. |
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You seem to have nailed his arguments to the wall


7:34 PM Jul 11