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| Farage is right. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM (1,424 Views) | |
| Alberich | Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM Post #1 |
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Alberich
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I note that Farage has attracted some criticism from the usual suspects about his comments on the NHS and newcomers with HIV. He argued that no-one from outside the EU should be allowed to come here and claim treatment under the NHS if they are suffering from an HIV infection, unless they have health insurance and are able to pay. What he is basically saying is that the NHS cannot continue to offer free medical care (especially the very expensive antiretroviral treatment that AIDS requires) to all and sundry on arrival. Africa, as an example, is awash with HIV sufferers, and the attraction of free health care for that illness in the UK is, for many in that continent, overwhelming. Hundreds are already here and being treated....free of charge to them; but not to us. Surely Farage is right. It is self evident. We cannot offer the facilities of the NHS, free of charge, to all who come here; especially those who have illness before they travel to these shores. Nige should be congratulated for stating the bleeding obvious, instead of having the guardianistas throwing up their hands in horror. Good for you, Farage. |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 12 2014, 12:22 PM Post #41 |
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The left want more and more money pumped into the health service and for the service to keep expanding, ignoring the fact that there is a limit on the money available. Its not government money, for the government only has taxpayers money, and there are a great deal more calls upon it than just the NHS. Limit the demands from non contributors, and you reduce the costs. The current thinking is that we need another 4 billion a year for the health service,annually, or another 20 billion by 2020,, just to maintain the service at its current level. If Ed Milliband had said what Farrage has said , then he would be receiving support from the same people opposed to him. Hard choices require hard decisions , so IMO Farrage is right for the long term good of our country. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 12 2014, 12:24 PM Post #42 |
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Is he right? https://fullfact.org/health/health_tourism_factsheet_cost-29253 https://fullfact.org/health/nhs_health_tourism_charge_migrants_jeremy_hunt-33848 |
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| Affa | Oct 12 2014, 12:24 PM Post #43 |
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NHS means British healthcare rated top out of 11 western countries, with US coming last[/quote] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html Date 2014. Edited by Affa, Oct 12 2014, 12:26 PM.
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| krugerman | Oct 12 2014, 12:27 PM Post #44 |
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Listening to one of our local radio stations this morning, I heard Anne Mcintosh MP (C) on something called "MP s diary" blabbing on about foreigners coming into our waters and taking our fish. Allthough no one should approve of benefit tourism, health tourism, foreigners ilegally fishing our waters or migrants working for peanuts, the point here is that these so called problems are not really problems at all. There are health tourists, there are migrant workers who milk the system, but its not a large scale problem costing billions, its a minor problem been blown completely out of proportion by a government desperate to see their ratings move up in the opinion polls. Absolutely typical Tory codswallop, blame the nasty foreigners, blame Europe, blame the French, blame immigrants, blame migrant workers, or the Germans - that should get us a few brownie points. There are more people who go overseas for treatment than arrive in the UK for treatment Medical tourism is a lucrative source of income for the NHS, according to a major new study that contradicts many of the assumptions behind the government's announcement that it will clamp down on foreigners abusing the health service. ( London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and York University) |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 02:34 PM Post #45 |
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Upstanding Member
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Brits going abroad for medical treatment invariably pay for it, immigrants coming here for medical treatment invariably don't. There's a difference there that may be too subtle for you to understand. All The Best |
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| somersetli | Oct 12 2014, 06:21 PM Post #46 |
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somersetli
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So all these problems are not problems at all. According to you these are stories made up by the government to win support from the public. Presumably you have a source you can quote that backs up your belief, something in black and white that proves these are stories without foundation? |
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| Tigger | Oct 12 2014, 07:13 PM Post #47 |
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From the City UK a lobby group that promotes the City? I wonder if I write to them they'll answer my question about how much they take out before they put anything back in?I'll go and ask a barber if I need a haircut next! Edited by Tigger, Oct 12 2014, 07:16 PM.
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| Lewis | Oct 12 2014, 07:22 PM Post #48 |
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Agree, hardly an independent and verifiable source is it. |
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| Tigger | Oct 12 2014, 07:26 PM Post #49 |
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This sector has the ability to sink the UK plc because despite the near meltdown in 08 there are still no firewalls between the taxpayer and the shysters in the City, a pissed off Europe or more likely US could take this crooked structure down in a matter of months if it felt the need to, slamming the door in it's face would be child's play, keep in mind that the UK has around 3.5% of global GDP and financial services is barely 10% of the UK economy, when you take these facts into consideration the vulnerability becomes all too apparent, forget the nonsense about punching above your weight, Britain inhabits a sea with some far bigger fish in it. |
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| Steve K | Oct 12 2014, 09:18 PM Post #50 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well Lewis and Tigger you are the founder members of the predictable posts club. You did read when I said "yes people will complain that the source is the City and not the Bridlington workers co-operative but no one has actually rebutted the figures and it still says £60B net annual contribution." The chart has been out there for ages and no one has rebutted it, neither of you have. That's likely cos it's true. But then you've both staked your whole case that it isn't. Hostages to fortune then. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 12 2014, 10:52 PM Post #51 |
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That's because the government does all it can to make finding out what The City costs us near impossible. We are constantly told what The City contributes - but you don't need to be a City whizz-kid to know that a balanced ledger requires a Costs column as well an Income column. We are told what income The City generates; but never what it costs us. Wonder why? All The Best |
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| Rich | Oct 13 2014, 01:18 AM Post #52 |
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The following is well worth a listen to. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04k9n03 |
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| RJD | Oct 13 2014, 08:14 AM Post #53 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Why should then answer such a question when you are incapable of putting your finger on the subject matter to be measured. You have made two classic mistakes; the Straw man and Shooting the Messenger, but I doubt that you have any idea which is which or even care. |
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| RJD | Oct 13 2014, 08:17 AM Post #54 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Maybe you should try and put some meat on that ragged old bone? Surely the question is based on substance? |
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| Deleted User | Oct 13 2014, 08:51 AM Post #55 |
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He was being interviewed for heavens sake and was answering questions which were of course structured to elicit controversial responses. He is a politician at the start of a General Election campaign so of course he is going to plug the solutions espoused by his Party, which may at the same time represent a serious attempt to address the problems facing the NHS. Halting 'health tourism' strikes me as a very serious proposed measure in attempting to reduce unjustified NHS expense. Whether he suggested this as simply an off the cuff example of possible NHS financial cost control or as a serious policy statement, I am in complete agreement with the idea, irrespective of how much or little abuse is made of the NHS. My view is that any national whose country does not have a comparable reciprocal health service with the UK should not be treated free of charge for any chronic condition by the NHS. Emergency treatment (car accidents, heart attacks etc) should be treated in the full expectation of recompense by the national's government. AIDS treatment is but one category of health tourism, and at £20,000 a year cost of treatment, any number is too many. |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 13 2014, 10:28 AM Post #56 |
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The old saying of looking after the pennies and youwill look after the pounds, It is not just a matter of cutting down on healt tourism, but saving money where ever it can be saved to use it on better things. Turn your central heating system down by a degree, repair the dripping tap, dont buy more than you need, and what you buy use to its full potential , and you will be surprised how much you can save in total and often enough not being aware of the changes.except in your pocket. Strick controls will act as a deterrent.to those arriving to be treated at our taxpayers expense. |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 13 2014, 10:39 AM Post #57 |
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MS, if he was making a serious attempt to address the problems facing the NHS, why did he not mention some of the serious problems it faces rather than a relatively minor one? Your interpretation is one possible explanation, mine is another. Be interesting to see how he does on the televised debate when his party's policies undergo a more rigorous examination. |
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| Affa | Oct 13 2014, 11:26 AM Post #58 |
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Where do the £bns the government fork out in 'interest payments' go? Having restored liquidity, topped up assets with QE, only to be borrowing back those layouts with interest ........ or have I got it completely wrong? |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 11:53 AM Post #59 |
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If all you can do is pretend to yourself that my point about the costs the City imposes on it's host, ie the UK, is a non question because you lack the honesty to acknowledge it, then perhaps you should keep quiet instead of making yourself look some sort of ignorant fool. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 11:56 AM Post #60 |
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Deliberate ignorance that is fooling no one, try some basic cognitive thought for once in your forum life. |
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| Steve K | Oct 13 2014, 12:55 PM Post #61 |
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Once and future cynic
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It probably would have been better if you hadn't brought up a whole new conspiracy theory about what the City takes just because you didn't want to admit you'd lost the balance of trade point We'd be effed without our trade in Financial Services and yet so many people on the square root of stuff all evidence but a huge dollop of chp on shoulder jealousy want to kill off the golden goose. Please don't ck up my country |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 01:15 PM Post #62 |
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It would appear that you have developed some of RGD's now legendary selective myopia! Let me just remind you that the City did eff up "my" country six years ago and we are still paying for it today, far from jealousy as you claim it is CONCERN that they might do it all over again seeing as they got off so lightly last time, lets face it we've had countless other corruption scandals in the City since 08, could we afford it again? Probably not, and yes I have been looking for figures to see what the net gain or loss financial services imposes on this country but alas nothing even remotely official can be found! Not being a great fan of renegade economists or revisionist ramblings I won't bother alerting you to those who do share these concerns. Roll on the coming FOREX scandal eh Steve?
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| AndyK | Oct 13 2014, 02:44 PM Post #63 |
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SteveK is right, another source http://www.ukbusiness-today.co.uk/news/uks-financial-services-71bn-trade-surplus-dwarfs-its-nearest-rivals This is just the export trade difference, the actual full turnover must be huge. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 13 2014, 04:51 PM Post #64 |
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html Date 2014.[/quote] According to the pickets outside some Hospitals today it is struggling to cope Edited by Stan Still, Oct 13 2014, 04:51 PM.
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| Affa | Oct 13 2014, 05:13 PM Post #65 |
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According to the pickets outside some Hospitals today it is struggling to cope[/quote] What's your point? The NHS is struggling 'to maintain standards'! That doesn't mean the 'system' is broke, it doesn't mean the system is wrong. What it does mean is that increasing demands have not been met by increased facilities, staff, or access - in fact there has been a decrease in Nurse numbers, wards closed for "bed shortage", A&E units closed ....... and much more lowering of standards. A situation of increasing demand and reduced resources. I wish I knew what it is you think the NHS needs in order to improve its service (apart for a curb on immigration), so that I could debate whether it has merit or not. Of one thing I am sure is that this coalition does not have the correct approach, so standards will continue to fall. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 05:56 PM Post #66 |
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When people ignore the question you pose there is little point in carrying on with the debate, and for the umpteenth time the figures are meaningless until we know what financial services takes out of the economy before it puts anything back in!
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| RJD | Oct 13 2014, 06:00 PM Post #67 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Yes hoisted by your own ignorance. Spell it out boy if you can otherwise you are just playing the Straw man game. Put up or shut up as they say up north. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 06:03 PM Post #68 |
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According to the pickets outside some Hospitals today it is struggling to cope[/quote]Well they deserve that 1% pay rise then Stan, that's right isn't it? Perhaps when Osborn has finished using taxpayers money to argue in Europe that bankers bonus's should not be capped or held back (in case they've been naughty) he can then use his talents to argue on behalf of NHS staff?
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 06:05 PM Post #69 |
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You are an idiot who obviously cannot read or even understand simple concepts despite it being rammed down your throat on numerous occasions. Be gone with you. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 13 2014, 06:13 PM Post #70 |
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Well they deserve that 1% pay rise then Stan, that's right isn't it? Perhaps when Osborn has finished using taxpayers money to argue in Europe that bankers bonus's should not be capped or held back (in case they've been naughty) he can then use his talents to argue on behalf of NHS staff? [/quote]Many others in work would like a pay rise but can their employers afford it or not at this time? that is the rub
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 13 2014, 06:14 PM Post #71 |
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I'm sure a curb on obesity would also help considerably to ease the strain on the NHS. Not very PC to point this out though, not to mention that the overweight represent a sizeable portion (no pun intended) of the electorate. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 06:18 PM Post #72 |
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And smokers, and drinkers, those who participate in dangerous sports, drug takers, fans of junk food and so on and so forth. All self inflicted problems wouldn't you agree? Any reason you missed those groups out? How's that for PC.
Edited by Tigger, Oct 13 2014, 06:18 PM.
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| Stan Still | Oct 13 2014, 06:20 PM Post #73 |
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Obesity in the UK is of grave concern to the NHS, as is drinking too much alcohol, and unlawful drugs, fewer people smoke these days as I understand it |
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 13 2014, 06:25 PM Post #74 |
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Very true Stan, and we aren't dependant on politicians to address them, we the people have the power to address these issues ourselves. How many of us will though? |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 06:28 PM Post #75 |
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Many others in work would like a pay rise but can their employers afford it or not at this time? that is the rub[/quote] Well I've just calculated my annual dividend while bad weather curtails some of our work, that plus the amount we can afford to pay to those on PAYE, and I have to tell you it is well above 1%. You see Stan my house is big enough and I don't need another new car just yet, oh and I don't play golf either so no kudos for me on that count. You see Stan if you constantly piss off those who make you money or provide you with a service you ironically end up with less money yourself and a poorer level of service! Human nature innit. Many in the UK seem to have forgotten that.
Edited by Tigger, Oct 13 2014, 06:29 PM.
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| Happy Hornet | Oct 13 2014, 06:31 PM Post #76 |
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Tigger, you're right of course but in my experience it's socially acceptable to advise people not to drink or smoke for the sake of their health. People tend to be more sensitive wrt to fatties. |
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| Steve K | Oct 13 2014, 08:21 PM Post #77 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well seems it's you that is doing the ignoring because you posted an idiot "mangey chicken" comment in post 32 and got that chart in response. You then made yourself hostage to fortune by saying it can't be true and as Andy (ta BTW) has pointed out it is true. So now you go on a desperate lets invent another myth campaign by pretending the City is getting secret subsidies that wipe that £60B out. You've been so found out Tigger.
So if you repeat a story enough times you think it becomes true? No it doesn't no matter how often you and Labour say it. Some elements (you do understand the concept of "some" don't you) of the City and New York and other financial centres were reckless but what effed up this country was the government increasing spending assuming that ever growing GDP would just keep on growing despite being explicitly warned in 2003 it was getting iffy. But NewLab didn't want to hear that, they continued over inflating the economy and destroying serious jobs because "GDP will grow and pay for it all". The City probably help keep that GDP delusion going for a bit but it was the fools in charge that got it wrong, there was always going to be a crash. It's in Labour's blood. And people like you that would kill the whole City because some elements helped Brown spin his idiocy for longer are dangerous |
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| Affa | Oct 13 2014, 08:37 PM Post #78 |
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UK events industry worth £60bn, reveals MPI study http://www.citmagazine.com/article/1190234/uk-events-industry-worth-60bn-reveals-mpi-study The events industry contributes £58.4bn to UK GDP, according to MPI's UK Economic Impact Study, which was released at The Meetings Show yesterday (10 July- 2013). The long-awaited report revealed that the meetings industry is worth £58.4 billion to the UK’s gross domestic product (GDP) – three times greater than the agricultural sector. The industry contributes £21.1bn in taxes and is the UK's 16th biggest employer with 515,423 people. All quoted from the article ....... just to put some perspective on this thread. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 08:48 PM Post #79 |
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Ern... I'm not advocating the destruction of financial services which some folks seem to think I am calling for, just a nice little audit to find out who offers value for money and who does some good, in Lord Turner's words those that he termed "socially useless" should be invited to ply their trade elsewhere as we can't really afford them. Wasn't that hard to understand surely? |
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| Affa | Oct 13 2014, 09:01 PM Post #80 |
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In regard to changes made to tax raising in the FS sector (UK). The study reflects a changing tax system and the impact of the financial crisis over the six studies. In 2013, corporation tax represents 19.0% of taxes borne (2007: 40.8%), employers’ NI represents 34.9% (2007 21.3%) and irrecoverable VAT 22.1% (2007: 19.1%). In 2007, for every £1 of corporation tax there was £1.45 of other taxes, in 2013 the figure is £4.26. http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/business/economic-research-and-information/research-publications/Documents/research-2013/total-tax-contribution-of-uk-financial-services-sixth-edition.pdf |
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I wonder if I write to them they'll answer my question about how much they take out before they put anything back in?
ck up my country

7:35 PM Jul 11