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| Farage is right. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM (1,423 Views) | |
| Alberich | Oct 11 2014, 01:29 PM Post #1 |
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Alberich
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I note that Farage has attracted some criticism from the usual suspects about his comments on the NHS and newcomers with HIV. He argued that no-one from outside the EU should be allowed to come here and claim treatment under the NHS if they are suffering from an HIV infection, unless they have health insurance and are able to pay. What he is basically saying is that the NHS cannot continue to offer free medical care (especially the very expensive antiretroviral treatment that AIDS requires) to all and sundry on arrival. Africa, as an example, is awash with HIV sufferers, and the attraction of free health care for that illness in the UK is, for many in that continent, overwhelming. Hundreds are already here and being treated....free of charge to them; but not to us. Surely Farage is right. It is self evident. We cannot offer the facilities of the NHS, free of charge, to all who come here; especially those who have illness before they travel to these shores. Nige should be congratulated for stating the bleeding obvious, instead of having the guardianistas throwing up their hands in horror. Good for you, Farage. |
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| Steve K | Oct 13 2014, 09:09 PM Post #81 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well if you insist on saying "It's more of a mangey chicken than a golden goose." in post 32 we might be forgiven for thinking you were prejudging any such audit and seeking to see its neck rung by sundown. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 09:10 PM Post #82 |
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Senior Member
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I've been "found out" by someone who like me cannot find an audit on the financial services sector Please! A good place to start is the NAO this has comprehensive details on most public spending, such as health, defence, education and so on, alas it is far vaguer and less forthcoming on what the clusterfuck that is much financial services has and is costing us, no chance of finding comprehensive details here then! What it does say is that we are currently supporting FS with £141bn of taxpayers money, that £5bn is in effect lost due to saving FS from itself, the fees recouped from the bailout are "less than expected" and that potential losses to the taxpayer are "difficult to envisage." Much of the data itself is old and imprecise and seems to leave rather a lot of detail out. Again if they'd only do a full and thorough audit we might get some proper answers! But don't take my word for it Steve get yourself over to the NAO's website and have a look for yourself, I look forward to you presenting me with concrete evidence that Financial Services is a a massive asset that is worth every single penny we've wasted trying to keep it intact and largely unreformed, again remember I'm not looking to destroy it just root out the diseased parts and burn them to save us further unpleasant side effects! |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 09:16 PM Post #83 |
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Senior Member
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Good God no! I'm not PS! I want value for money and the rules of capitalism applied with rigour to the Financial Services sector, we have in effect a form of socialism in place for it at the moment which is rather ironic given what it's been preaching the last thirty years, it has in effect destroyed the life chances of the next two generations because of it's short term agenda and greed, to my mind that should incur consequences. |
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| Rich | Oct 13 2014, 09:16 PM Post #84 |
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Senior Member
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What's your point? The NHS is struggling 'to maintain standards'! That doesn't mean the 'system' is broke, it doesn't mean the system is wrong. What it does mean is that increasing demands have not been met by increased facilities, staff, or access - in fact there has been a decrease in Nurse numbers, wards closed for "bed shortage", A&E units closed ....... and much more lowering of standards. A situation of increasing demand and reduced resources. I wish I knew what it is you think the NHS needs in order to improve its service (apart for a curb on immigration), so that I could debate whether it has merit or not. Of one thing I am sure is that this coalition does not have the correct approach, so standards will continue to fall. [/quote]As Mr Farage has stated many times we have in this country a NATIONAL health service, unfortunately thanks to Labour opening the flood gates to all and sundry we now have an International health service and therein lies the problem, too many taking advantage of something they have not contributed to which only dilutes the treatment and services available within the budget that taxpayers in this country contribute to. And that is the simple truth of the matter, the same can be said of all our other public services paid for by taxpayers, perhaps now you can see why we MUST leave the EU and negotiate trading terms only which we had already before that twat Heath lied to us, it was then called the common market and as far as I know, upgrading that to what it is today has cost this country untold billions of pounds......WASTED!!!. |
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| Affa | Oct 13 2014, 09:22 PM Post #85 |
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Senior Member
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[/quote] You forgot you'd read this, didn't you, Rich. "(apart for a curb on immigration)" Edited by Affa, Oct 13 2014, 09:24 PM.
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| C-too | Oct 14 2014, 08:39 AM Post #86 |
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Honourable Member
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| RJD | Oct 14 2014, 08:56 AM Post #87 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Another cop out. All mouth and no trousers as we say up north. |
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| Steve K | Oct 14 2014, 09:06 AM Post #88 |
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Once and future cynic
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Oh good grief more Tigger moving of the goal posts. You introduced that audit point late into this line of debate when you could neither challenge that £60B positive trade balance nor substantiate wild arsed guesses on subsidies to the City. And I'm not sure you know what the A in NAO stands for As for that £141B yes I have read an NAO report that mentions it http://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/ Turns out to hole your and Gee's boats way below the water line. Most of that is cash outlay on shares and as we know when they sold some of the shares in Lloyds they made a whopping £Bmulti profit on that cash outlay Perhaps the most key part is this:
So a total net investment of £4B over 6 years (effectively the Northern Crock loss). And you say we could have funded all sorts of NHS expansion on that Edited by Steve K, Oct 14 2014, 09:08 AM.
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| RJD | Oct 14 2014, 09:07 AM Post #89 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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| C-too | Oct 14 2014, 09:21 AM Post #90 |
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Honourable Member
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The present problems with the EU are mainly caused by the same problems we face here in the UK and in the rest of the Western economies. My guess is that all will recover sooner or later and that will be the proper time to pass judgement on the EU. AFAIA we are already trading with and expanding trade with the rest of the world. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 14 2014, 10:02 AM Post #91 |
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Upstanding Member
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Indeed. The problem being that politicians have, en masse, sold their votes and souls to Big Business. Just go and read what TTIP does, and then tell me the EU gives a damn about "working class" people and workers' rights. All The Best |
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| Affa | Oct 14 2014, 11:38 AM Post #92 |
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Senior Member
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Sold out to business that have more money than most countries. I have another interpretation - it is not only that Big Business lobby Ministers, not that they bribe ministers, Officials (Whitehall eg), or control most resources (important). It is that they control the media (which are corporate), and thereby public opinion (evidence read here daily). In fact the whole Establishment is in the hands of Corporations. This raises a question. Has business formed a global cartel where they all agree a common policy? Is it possible? I don't know, and in some ways such an arrangement isn't necessary for the exertion of power to have the influence I say it has. Politicians are by definition susceptible to influence, especially where economic well being is a concern, anyway, most politicians are groomed and mentored (by the Establishment) long before they enter public life. Their political ethos ingrained so that they never question what it is they are guided towards doing - 'Austerity Measures'. One thing I am equally certain off is that they also employ the best brains on the planet, are not lacking in talent or genius, resources or ambition. The Cancer is everywhere. I hate conspiracy theorists ........ |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 14 2014, 11:56 AM Post #93 |
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Well I've just calculated my annual dividend while bad weather curtails some of our work, that plus the amount we can afford to pay to those on PAYE, and I have to tell you it is well above 1%. You see Stan my house is big enough and I don't need another new car just yet, oh and I don't play golf either so no kudos for me on that count. You see Stan if you constantly piss off those who make you money or provide you with a service you ironically end up with less money yourself and a poorer level of service! Human nature innit. Many in the UK seem to have forgotten that. [/quote]There is no reason at all to think that if our economy or the buisiness we work for fail.or the demands on our taxes becomes greater or we as a country, go into recession, that our standards of pay or standards of living should not reduce or recede accordingly. WSe ar still in a recession,andif you look atg the stock market you will see that the expecation of further decline is having a bad effect, and doth think for one moment that only the rich will be the losers.This belief that our standards of living along with our pay should rise forever is a false one. Better to live with what we have and what the couintry can afford then n to have it suddenly taken away from us by our own false expectations,even greed, or just by inflation that pay rises automatically bring. When my take home,pay was in single figures for a 48 hour week, a pound of potatoes was 2 pence in current money and a bread roll was a half pence. Work it out for yourself. |
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| RJD | Oct 14 2014, 12:02 PM Post #94 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Time will tell, but the difference is that the UK is at the head of the pack demanding reform, supported in the background by Germany who recognises the inevitabilities, however, France+PIGS are a millstone and resist reforms. I also believe it will be impossible to reconcile the differences between the EZ and the rest, and that the Euro is a problem which cannot easily be resolved by anyone. It is a tar-babby that only some single minded extremist fraction, such as Le Penn or the Italian jokers, with iron resolution can bring to the boil. Inevitably it will be a question for the German people and they will say no to underwriting the Euro and/or allowing the EU to use financial instruments that in effect make it a guarantor of other EZ countries debts. The CDU will not, SDP will not and the Courts would put a stop to this. I am pleased if the UK is winning more business with the ROW, in my experience that usually comes with better profit margins. |
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| RJD | Oct 14 2014, 12:06 PM Post #95 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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There is no reason at all to think that if our economy or the buisiness we work for fail.or the demands on our taxes becomes greater or we as a country, go into recession, that our standards of pay or standards of living should not reduce or recede accordingly. WSe ar still in a recession,andif you look atg the stock market you will see that the expecation of further decline is having a bad effect, and doth think for one moment that only the rich will be the losers. This belief that our standards of living along with our pay should rise forever is a false one. Better to live with what we have and what the couintry can afford then n to have it suddenly taken away from us by our own false expectations,even greed, or just by inflation that pay rises automatically bring. When my take home,pay was in single figures for a 48 hour week, a pound of potatoes was 2 pence in current money and a bread roll was a half pence. Work it out for yourself.[/quote]Well said. Private Sector workers have taken a hammering but for some reason those in the Public Sector believe they must be protected. Will they learn the basics? I doubt it. |
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| Steve K | Oct 14 2014, 03:31 PM Post #96 |
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Once and future cynic
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That's the lie Phoenix One repeats so often and wishes us all to believe The truth is rather sadly the opposite ![]() "Non-EU Exports for August 2014 are £10.9 billion. This is a decrease of £2.2 billion (16.8 per cent) compared to last month, and a decrease of £4.6 billion (29.7 per cent) compared to August 2013. This is the lowest export value since May 2010." https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/NonEUOverseasTrade/Pages/NonEuOTS.aspx Edited by Steve K, Oct 14 2014, 03:33 PM.
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| Affa | Oct 14 2014, 09:10 PM Post #97 |
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Your chart ought to go back further ......
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/7011/economics/uk-exports-to-non-eu-countries/ |
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| Stan Still | Oct 14 2014, 09:29 PM Post #98 |
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Regular Member
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As Mr Farage has stated many times we have in this country a NATIONAL health service, unfortunately thanks to Labour opening the flood gates to all and sundry we now have an International health service and therein lies the problem, too many taking advantage of something they have not contributed to which only dilutes the treatment and services available within the budget that taxpayers in this country contribute to. And that is the simple truth of the matter, the same can be said of all our other public services paid for by taxpayers, perhaps now you can see why we MUST leave the EU and negotiate trading terms only which we had already before that twat Heath lied to us, it was then called the common market and as far as I know, upgrading that to what it is today has cost this country untold billions of pounds......WASTED!!!.[/quote]It is struggling with the amount of people it has to treat, we have imported Doctors and staff instead of training enough of our own people, it is badly run and haemorrhaging money, bad political decisions once again has wasted billions. I want it to survive but it can't if it continues lurching from one crisis after another, yes I want out of the EU as well |
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| Tigger | Oct 14 2014, 09:45 PM Post #99 |
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Senior Member
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| Affa | Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM Post #100 |
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Senior Member
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It is struggling with the amount of people it has to treat, we have imported Doctors and staff instead of training enough of our own people, it is badly run and haemorrhaging money, bad political decisions once again has wasted billions. I want it to survive but it can't if it continues lurching from one crisis after another, yes I want out of the EU as well[/quote] Oh bugger ........ editing still beats me. Stan; I'm with you. Where we differ is in this concept of the NHS being in crisis. It only experiences crisis when funding is withdrawn - the UK spends about the European average on Health care (now less), is rated amongst the best. It isn't broke. This ebola crisis has seen the NHS's reputation increase ....... it performs well. How long it can continue as it is does in a big way depend on the strains put on it by immigratio Edited by Affa, Oct 14 2014, 09:55 PM.
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| Steve K | Oct 15 2014, 09:20 PM Post #101 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes we did this at the old forum. Spring 2013 saw a short term peak, a false dawn Take this quote from the link in my post
non EU exports are in trouble and we'd be worse without the leverage of the EU to force fair trading by those markets |
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| Steve K | Oct 15 2014, 10:12 PM Post #102 |
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Once and future cynic
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Can you edit your post please, you've posted your words into the quote of me IMHO the anti EU side has many strong arguments but trade and GDP are very much not one of them. It's a swings and roundabouts judgement. As best as I can summarise my view of it the country as a whole is better off in the EU as it is but the distribution of that is very questionable especially with the influx of migrants taking jobs and depressing the lower half of the wage market. |
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| Affa | Oct 15 2014, 10:34 PM Post #103 |
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Senior Member
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Steve; I sometimes deliberate completely opposite to what my gut instincts tell me. That can make me appear inconsistent, hypocritical maybe ...... I'm neither. I accept everything that is told about the EU and its ability to influence markets and form favourable trade agreements. Why I left the corp was when I also saw that little of this benefits the masses - I don't say there are no benefits, I say the greater gains are as ever awarded to investors, to corporations. I'd be 100% behind an EU (even a Federal EU) if the aims of it were to raise living standards and create employment opportunities for Europeans. |
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| Affa | Oct 15 2014, 10:43 PM Post #104 |
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Senior Member
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The reason the UK belatedly put the effort into joining the COmmon Market was precisely because the UK was losing out on trade. However, the reasons for that were more to do with UK industries being inefficient, lacking in modern technologies and investment, (being behind our competitors) than from any bloc given advantages. imo the UK could compete with anyone if it geared up to be the best, to produce the best. A lack of skills shortage can be addressed, can be part of that gearing up. We have huge potential for growth. |
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| scorpio | Oct 15 2014, 11:22 PM Post #105 |
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Steve K .. Regarding UK exports to ROW (non EU) it would be interesting to have further analyse of the data, to see how much of the exports were to ROW countries that have trade agreements, with the EU. The EU has trade agreements with about 32 ROW countries. Something the UK would loose post Brexit, and is often overlooked by those that use ROW trade data, to suggest that the UK, could trade on the same ROW terms are as they do now. |
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| scorpio | Oct 15 2014, 11:30 PM Post #106 |
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Regular Member
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It's difficult to address the "lack of skills shortage" when the engineer, the builder, the scientist, the technician, etcetera, are on a lower level of status, and undervalued by society, than the city trader, the lawyer, and the accountant. |
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| Steve K | Oct 15 2014, 11:59 PM Post #107 |
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Once and future cynic
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Agree but I don't have that data and I suspect it would take a lot of searching - sorry |
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| C-too | Oct 16 2014, 07:09 AM Post #108 |
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Honourable Member
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That suggests that the Tory claim to have the fastest growing economy should be framed in the past sense. I seem to recall a comment suggesting that the growth we did have was short term and was likely to fall in 2015. Edited by C-too, Oct 16 2014, 12:54 PM.
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| C-too | Oct 16 2014, 07:25 AM Post #109 |
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Honourable Member
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UKip and the NHS? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/ukip-assault-on-nhs-extinction |
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| RJD | Oct 16 2014, 07:28 AM Post #110 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Yes it was the IMF view that the UK economy had far too much cheap money leveraged on dodgy assets in 2007 and was overheated. The current concern is that the post crisis recovery is over for the global economy and we are just on the edge of a deflationary spiral. So do we retrenchment or continue to prime the pump with QE? As I said we should have rid ourselves of the overhang in one go and made the economy fit to weather the next storm. It is worth understanding that the growth we currently have has not been forged by Politicians, they can only help or hinder with taxes and social costs. So if the EZ goes down the Crapper I am afraid we will follow. It is vital that we cut Big Nanny to N affordable size asap. As for current UK growth there is none in GDP per capita terms and there is zilch that Labour could have done to improve such, only worsen. What we are seeing is the brutal affects of far too many people on a global basis chasing few jobs of the unskilled variety. What we going to do? Chase these jobs from the UK by increasing the NMW? |
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| Affa | Oct 16 2014, 10:35 AM Post #111 |
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Senior Member
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I completely agree Scorpio - include Estate Agents. Parasites All. Lawyers especially who ostensibly exist to protect folk from exploitation and criminal loss, but who in fact complicate matters so thoroughly in order to now be the ones doing the exploitation and often abet crooked dealings - some Health Gymnasium contracts for example - often tying members to three year contracts. Germany values Engineers, on a par with Doctors I understand. |
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| Steve K | Oct 16 2014, 10:41 AM Post #112 |
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Once and future cynic
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Ahem ![]() Not matching the over inflated 2007 figure maybe but up ~2% in real terms per capita since 2010 |
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| RJD | Oct 16 2014, 11:18 AM Post #113 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Considering the magnitude of measurement error as I said Steve not much GDP growth per capita to report. That said there is an argument that the 2008 figures contained a lot of froth which was easily blown away. As we have full employment for those with education and skills, this is shown by the inability of industry and commerce to satisfy job demand over the last three years for such, one has to wonder how and why there will be much improvement in wages at the bottom end of skill levels considering the massive oversupply? I think that low wages for low skills are here to stay and only the State can improve the net disposable of such low paid workers. It needs to take all on NMW out of taxation and get rid of taxes on employment. Economists seem to be in agreement that wages are suppressed by taxes on jobs, the workers end up via depressed market rates paying the Employers contribution. Not only did Brown increase taxes on jobs I understand that Milliband is considering increasing these further. |
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| Affa | Oct 16 2014, 12:11 PM Post #114 |
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Senior Member
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Let's say Employer NI contributions were done away with. The argument you make is that wages would rise, more jobs would be created. More jobs suggests there is a Market for more jobs, but wage (NI) demands deter filling that gap ..... ? The opportunity to use 10% of the wage bill to employ more staff, improve turnover and production, benefiting both business and worker is presented. Higher wages and higher numbers in employment + more tax revenue (PAYE). More consumption. and so possibly a Net gain to the Treasury (include savings from less Welfare support). It would also assume that the business profits improve adding more tax revenue collectable. So much does depend on business passing on these removed taxes to improve wages, to increase capacity - so much 'if'. |
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| Tigger | Oct 16 2014, 09:04 PM Post #115 |
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Senior Member
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I've got a bit bored debating the economy it's as if the UK is populated by children let loose in a sweet shop. The answer to a debt crisis is yet more debt! We'll stick a dress on it this time and nobody will notice! The government, (this one and the last one) did all they could to protect asset prices and at the same time effectively capped wages, other nations did this as well to be completely fair, the problem is the UK and US have recapitilised with funny money and the growth seen in both economies is largely as a result of this cheap money. It will have to end sooner or later as with those low wages debt has probably reached saturation point. It would seem there is a correction coming as the markets are getting very jittery about where their next fix of easy and cheap money is coming from, I'd say the nations that have not indulged themselves with QE could well be the ones sitting pretty when the dust settles. |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 16 2014, 10:10 PM Post #116 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Well, where do I start ? My father who paid NI and PAYE all his workinf life was denied a hospice bed to die in because it was taken by a woman with no right to be in this country who had never paid a penny into the british nhs yet the left leaning scum queued up to denounce her removal back to her homeland she should never have been allowed to leave, and while they argued, my father died in a stinking side ward in the university hospital of wales whose floor had not been washed for a fortnight and whose walls still had the holes in from when they took out the geriatric central heating system that was in place when i WORKED in the bloody building twenty five years before he died in it. So you can guess where I stand on health tourists invading our country and helping themselves to our healthcare. But this is not necessarily the whole picture As I have FREQUENTLY said, the NHS duty of care to foreigners ends when their condition is STABILISED not CURED and then other considerations should cut in. Subject to having suitable paperwork ... 1. those who are EU27 citizens get treated because we would be if it were us ill in their country 2. some countries have similar agreements to treat us in their country and should be treated as we would expect to be here 3. some countries agree to pay for the cost of treatment of their citizens 4. some people have insurance And for anyone else there is mastercard. Those who SUCCEED in an asylum claim should be treated, IMO. Those who AWAIT a decision should also be treated But being ill should not be a factor in the decision to be granted asylum, and those rejected should be ousted from the hospital to make room for our own. Like my father. |
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| Steve K | Oct 17 2014, 09:26 PM Post #117 |
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Once and future cynic
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Makes sense to me ^ JofG
Yes it's a big IF and employers should not get a free ride. But taxing most the ones that create jobs in the UK inevitably means jobs get exported. We should balance the removal of employers NI by a matching tax on revenue - increasing VAT is an easy way to do that. Ultimately wages and prices are determined by the market but taxation idiocies drive unemployment. If we make out net labour costs 13% higher against the world average then we will maintain the high unemployment we have with all its attendant evils |
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| Affa | Oct 17 2014, 10:54 PM Post #118 |
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Senior Member
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The problem I have with this notion that jobs will be priced out of the country is that most jobs these days are in the service industry, serving home requirements. Sure things like call centres can be and are exported, but very few others can be, and still undercut home costs. Wages are being driven down all across Europe, are rising in the developing world, and this I suggest is the object of globalisation (one of). Obama has acted to bring back jobs that were exported, more cosmetic than effective - we do have to learn to compete on level terms or return to Nationalism. Is there a Third Way? |
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| Steve K | Oct 17 2014, 11:00 PM Post #119 |
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Once and future cynic
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Not a fundamentally different third way. But employers NI in order to suppress VAT accelerates and worsens the position. I would also never ever have free trade agreements with economically or culturally divergent countries. It's madness, totally destabilising. |
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| RJD | Oct 18 2014, 07:37 AM Post #120 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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It is impossible for the UK or even the EU or the USA to extract itself from globalisation. Like it or not it is here to stay. If we wish to benefit from a global market place then best learn to add value to raw materials refined elsewhere at a low cost. Often in the Added Value Chain manufacturing is the least significant cost.I |
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7:35 PM Jul 11