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| The working man speaks. | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 13 2014, 06:44 PM (877 Views) | |
| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 06:44 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Member
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I don't like UKIP i believe they would lead this nation to disaster, but despite this prospect something good has come out of it all. The working man has got a voice again! For years we have been the butt of jokes, we are lazy, we are stupid, we have not moved with the times, we are all middle class now and other such bollocks, you could at one time crack jokes about the various races that is thankfully now largely unacceptable but at the same time it was almost anything goes if you were white and nominally working class. UKIP has frightened the establishment because it has set itself out to appeal to the forgotten working class, good isn't it? The problem is Lab/Con have probably no answers to this as yet, I suspect it would take Farage, Carswell and Reckless to conduct a gang bang in a nursery school to reverse loss of votes to the main parties. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 13 2014, 08:15 PM Post #41 |
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The tears are rolling down me legs with that one
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 08:18 PM Post #42 |
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That was Made in Chelsea for you City boys. And your bulldog has shit on the doorstop, clear it up please. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 08:23 PM Post #43 |
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I can't wait for the manifesto that they'll have to publish before the next election, I'll get the truck warmed up ready to drive through it! Hopefully it'll be available on cassette and on beer bottles for the hard of thinking, peanut packets as well if I had my way! |
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| Stan Still | Oct 13 2014, 08:23 PM Post #44 |
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Don't like football and no dog Ah well this workers is off to bed early start as usual beat the traffic
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| Steve K | Oct 13 2014, 08:36 PM Post #45 |
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Once and future cynic
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One of the moments I liked best was when Flouncer Rackham started a thread extolling UKIP and how HS2 was such an evil idea. And then I pointed out it was UKIP's champion project in 2010, so much so they made it a big part of their manifesto. He was a bit pissed by that. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 13 2014, 08:56 PM Post #46 |
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Would that be kind of like what the Troika did down on Greece? Oh, wait... ...best not mention that, eh? All The Best |
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| Steve K | Oct 13 2014, 08:59 PM Post #47 |
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Once and future cynic
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Mention it if you like, you always come off worse. |
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| Tigger | Oct 13 2014, 09:21 PM Post #48 |
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Are you doing a handstand?
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| Stan Still | Oct 14 2014, 05:45 PM Post #49 |
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Nah you are thinking of an Essex Tumble Dryer
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| Deleted User | Oct 14 2014, 06:04 PM Post #50 |
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Poor Papasmurf! For all his loudly proclaimed intelligence he really doesn't grasp irony! |
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| papasmurf | Oct 14 2014, 06:15 PM Post #51 |
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That wasn't irony, that was Stan Still shooting himself in the foot and neither he or you can see it. |
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| somersetli | Oct 14 2014, 06:38 PM Post #52 |
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somersetli
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We all know that political party manifestos are hardly worth the paper they are written on, and are forgotten as soon as any government is elected. In that respect UKIP would probably be no different. Out of interest this afternoon I was reading UKIPs current manifesto (2014). Presumably this was what they fought the recent by-elections on. Considering the comments here for or, against, UKIP, which items of that manifesto do posters on here object to. (leaving aside the EU).? Edited by somersetli, Oct 14 2014, 06:39 PM.
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| papasmurf | Oct 14 2014, 06:42 PM Post #53 |
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It is not what is in the 2014/15 UKIP manifesto it is what they have left out, so they can fool some of the more gullible working class who did not read the UKIP 2010 manifesto into voting UKIP. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 14 2014, 07:29 PM Post #54 |
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No comment:-
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| somersetli | Oct 14 2014, 08:15 PM Post #55 |
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somersetli
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That's not what I asked. Which items in the manifesto do you find objectionable. |
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| papasmurf | Oct 14 2014, 08:18 PM Post #56 |
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The ones UKIP have left out. |
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| Stan Still | Oct 14 2014, 08:23 PM Post #57 |
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Straight answer to a straight question sorry nah he don't do that, put a bit of spin on the question and he might recognise it |
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| Stan Still | Oct 14 2014, 08:25 PM Post #58 |
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There are none so blind as those that can see then lie about it if they don't lke what they see
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| Deleted User | Oct 14 2014, 08:31 PM Post #59 |
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UKIP policies include' lets ignore climate change',' lets get out of the EU' ,' if we do everything will be great'. There isnt much else. Promising stuff such as prioritising social housing to people with parents and grandparents born 'locally' doesnt mean very much. |
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| somersetli | Oct 14 2014, 09:51 PM Post #60 |
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somersetli
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Not quite sure how you object to something that doesn't exist. |
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| somersetli | Oct 14 2014, 09:54 PM Post #61 |
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somersetli
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Yes, but do you object to prioritising social housing for local people, and if so.......why? |
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| papasmurf | Oct 14 2014, 10:01 PM Post #62 |
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UKIP has tried to erase its 2010 manifesto because of the disgraceful slur in it about all benefit claimants:- "Claimants are “a parasitic underclass of scroungers”" I have no reason to think UKIP has changed it mind. They have just left the comment out of the latest manifesto |
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| Deleted User | Oct 14 2014, 10:08 PM Post #63 |
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I dont..but I am not dumb enough to swallow this promise without being informed of how much social housing will be available in the first place |
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| Steve K | Oct 14 2014, 10:15 PM Post #64 |
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Once and future cynic
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UKIP doesn't actually have a 2014/15 national manifesto yet. What it does now have is a so called statement of policies http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people It does contain a number of complete U turns and we must be suspicious about such - they have corrected their bonkers figure for UK net contribution to the EU back to the £22M a day Treasury figure - they have done a complete U turn on HS2 - they have changed their (rogue employers dream) plan to remove all individual rights to replacing them with a so called British Bill of Rights - but are saying just about nothing about what rights will remain. As such it is still back to the 1930s. - they still refuse to offer a referendum on EU membership - the are still promising a lot of giveaways with not a shred of rationale about how they could be afforded It is not all bad though, there are some good things in there Edited by Steve K, Oct 14 2014, 10:16 PM.
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| Rich | Oct 15 2014, 12:34 AM Post #65 |
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I am definitely sure that there would be more available had it not been for labours disastrous immigration/social engineering programme which they themselves have admitted "we got it wrong" |
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| Deleted User | Oct 15 2014, 06:46 AM Post #66 |
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But UKIP are telling us what they WILL do not what has been done. Its no good telling us that locals can get council houses when we dont know how many they will build. |
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| disgruntled porker | Oct 15 2014, 07:28 AM Post #67 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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UKIP are a set of crafty buggers. IMHO, even more right wing than the current Tories. That worries me. I worry that people will be taken in by a few empty promises and flag waving. Historically, we have seen it all before. One instance being Germany in the 1930's. Times of hardship and discontent where everyone is absolutely balled off. People staring down a long dark tunnel without a glimmer of hope in sight. Then along comes a charismatic leader, waving the flag and inspiring some national pride, a sense of unity among the masses, that glimmer of light, however small, at the end of that ominous black void. Obviously the people go for it. Ok, I'm not talking about anything on the same scale, or with the same impact, but I'm one of those silly ignoramuses who notice these things and attempt to learn from them. |
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| somersetli | Oct 15 2014, 08:11 AM Post #68 |
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So we have got this far, you approve of local social housing for local people with the proviso that you can know how many houses are going to be available. So this once policy you can equate with. How about local people being involved with local planning decisions? Edited by somersetli, Oct 15 2014, 08:12 AM.
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| Deleted User | Oct 15 2014, 08:24 AM Post #69 |
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I never said I approved. I refuted that I objected to it. My point was that UKIP has put forward an obviously half baked promise and people embrace it without using their heads. As for people being involved with local planning decisions.in principle that seems fine but there can be problems with this if local nimbys put their interests before the general good. On the other hand local people can point out real problems with proposed building plans ie risk of flooding, lack of infrastructure etc. What are UKIPs policy on local people being involved in local planning decisions? I missed that. |
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| RJD | Oct 15 2014, 11:36 AM Post #70 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Breath taking. The killer blow to all debate. |
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| somersetli | Oct 15 2014, 12:18 PM Post #71 |
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On your point of UKIP putting forward half baked promises, that puts them on par with all the other political parties. They all do that, so we cannot single UKIP out in that respect. You ask about UKIPs policy on local people being involved with local planning decisions. I can only print what it says in this Manifesto 2014; Local referendums. "Its time to bring back power to the people. So major decisions should be subject to binding local referendums if the people demand it. On the petition of 5% of the population, major planning and service provision decisions should be put to a local vote". One I liked better than that was; "Councils should cut highly paid council executives, not front-line staff and services"..............seems reasonable to me. I do not want anybody to run away with the idea that I am some kind of a recruiting serjeant for UKIP. I am not, but I do not think all of their ideas are bunkum. The appeal for me is that it would break the endless, and monotonous, Labour/Conservative chain of governments that have run this country for the last 70 years, without a lot to show for it. I doubt if I would vote UKIP though next year, simply because I fear that it could lead to the Labour party getting back into power, which I feel would not be in this country's best interests....................and I supported Labour all my adult life up to 2001. |
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| C-too | Oct 15 2014, 12:29 PM Post #72 |
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UKip and the NHS? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/02/ukip-assault-on-nhs-extinction Edited by C-too, Oct 15 2014, 12:31 PM.
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| C-too | Oct 15 2014, 12:35 PM Post #73 |
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Do you mind if I ask you what happened in 2001 for you to stop voting Labour? |
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| RJD | Oct 15 2014, 12:36 PM Post #74 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I think we easily forget that in the 20th C. the UK fought two World wars and managed to unravel it's Empire in a calm and civilised manner and still, after the post ww2 relative economic decline managed to pull it's socks up. Whilst we have many problems to face the country is no slouch and has taken on it's fair share of global responsibilities. The country is also a great boon to arts and culture, although I must say it is time we pulled our socks up with international football. That said for a relatively small country our citizens performed well in the Olympics. As well as a leading donor of international aid the UK is also extremely generous with support to it's citizens who find it difficult to care for themselves. It is very easy to pick at the frayed edges, but in the round the UK is still one of the better addresses on this Planet. If it wasn't then it would not be the preferred address of some many of the so-called rich and elite. That said I welcome UKIP as a breath of fresh air into the HofC to blow away a few of the accumulated cobwebs and focus the mind of Politicians, both right and left, who have found it too easy to kick problems into the long grass. |
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| avagrumble | Oct 15 2014, 12:57 PM Post #75 |
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Most of UKIPs supporters, people who pledged to vote for them in the Euopean and also the next general election, you will find are about fifty years old or older. This is because they can remember how this country used to be, we had control over who we would let into the country. Ones we needed...come in. Those we didn't need....try somewhere else. But those times were roughly forty years ago, now we have politicians that appease everyone in the blind thinking that they will collar their vote, and are quite happy to let people in who have nothing in common with Britain and have no intention of intergrating. By doing so they have changed the face of Britain for ever, Britain is being diluted, the Britishness, the patriotism is diminished. How many would take up arms to defend this country now, certainly not the immigrants that have swarmed in the last ten years or so, and not too many indigenous I would imagine, to come back to what...a country that is slowly concreting itself so it can house half of Europe. Think of the millions or so immigrants that have come to this country one way or another, in the last ten years, not many have not got a roof over their heads . Not like those waiting their chance to come here at Calais, where they live in squalid conditions,fed only by local charity, knowing once they get here their troubles are over. They will be fed, housed and given money to buy bits and pieces, don't be misled by the politicions saying about getting tough, the EU will make sure we treat them right. |
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| Deleted User | Oct 15 2014, 01:06 PM Post #76 |
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If UKIP are no better than any of the other parties then they shouldnt be ' singled out'. They should be viewed with as much suspicion as the other parties..that is my bleedin' point. I wil repeat what I keep saying..that UKIP is a party with very little clear policies apart from climate change denial and' lets get out of the EU and everything will be fine'. Their strength is an avuncular front man who can point out the other parties faults and spout what people want to hear...there is nothing else. "Its time to bring back power to the people. So major decisions should be subject to binding local referendums if the people demand it. On the petition of 5% of the population, major planning and service provision decisions should be put to a local vote".....sounds like a nimbys charter. Sometimes local communities have to put up with projects for the sake of the whole. To me this just smacks of a sound bite which has no substance when examined. Same as this. ."Councils should cut highly paid council executives, not front-line staff and services". Sounds good to me too but what are the structures of the councils with a UKIP government? Again just another sound bite with no substance behind it. I have always suspected that UKIP is a bunch right wingers with a neoliberalism agenda fronted by an avuncular con man posing as a ' man of the people'. I have seen nothing yet to convince me otherwise. |
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| somersetli | Oct 15 2014, 02:36 PM Post #77 |
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No I don't mind telling you that. I voted for Tony Blair and New Labour in 1997, not only out of loyalty and habit, but because they seemed like a breath of fresh air after 17 years of Tory government. However they did not seem to me to be anything like the Labour party of old that I had supported for so long. They seemed to me more like career, rather than conviction, politicians. I was seduced into Labour politics by the young Micheal Foot when he fought a local seat against the conservative Randolph Churchill. The man's oratory skill and persuasion were awesome to the then young man like myself. After my army service I became an ardent Trade Unionist with the old Transport and General Workers Union. Through that I met men like Jack Jones and the old miners leader Joe Gormley (this was in the days before wreckers like Red Robo and Scargill). At the TUC Training College in London I met Harold Wilson and Barbara Castle (and I still have my red tie and can sing The Red Flag). All these people, and many of their kind, had a great connection with ordinary working men and women. Something that is lacking in the present Labour Party. To cap it all, radicalism is the politics of the young and I no longer have the energy nor the inclination for the picket line or the protest march of my younger days. |
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| Alberich | Oct 15 2014, 03:16 PM Post #78 |
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The reason UKIP are doing well isn't difficult to understand. For years, politics in this country has been in the hands of either conservatives, or Labour. And most of us can't see any difference, whichever of the two parties rule. A bit of tinkering with tax....nothing too radical.....and things churn on much as before. If a group of conservatives, or Labour supporters went to sleep for a decade or two, they would not be able to tell which party was in power when they woke up. Same old same old! Union leaders huff and puff against the conservatives, but they are just as likely to flex their muscles against a labour administration. But for the majority, politics didn't affect them personally. All that changed when Blair and new Labour opened the immigration floodgates.and suddenly, politics DID affect huge swaithes of the country. It affected everyone. It is all around, tangible, and in full view. And your "working class" , with some exceptions, doesn't like what he sees. He also realises that the two main parties, being wedded to the E.U. great design, are powerless to do anything asbout it;no matter what they promise. Then along comes UKIP, who make the right noises. They are totally anti the E.U., and would pull us out if they were in power. They promise to control immigration, which they claim to be able to do as they would leave the E.U. and resume control over our own borders. And for many, if not most, the problem these days is not "the economy, stupid". It is immigration and the E.U. Farage listens, and promises to respond to their wishes. The other two cannot, or will not. So support for UKIP is on a roll. It might all go pearshaped at the next election, but in my own backyard, opinion suggests that support for UKIP will grow, not decline. The pieces are in flux, to misquote Blair. It will be interesting to see where they fall. |
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| Tytoalba | Oct 15 2014, 04:15 PM Post #79 |
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What are these working mans{and womens} fears that UKIP represent and cause them to swing to UKIP, and why are the other parties not responding to those fears. You appear to say they exist. If UKIP helps to bring back representative democracy to politics, with open agenda, not the current ones which too many people do not believe, and with politicians saying one thing but meaning another, as so many seem to believe, to deceive us into believing them, then a vote for UKIP is NOT a wasted vote. Cometh the hour , commeth the man, and for many that man is Farrage. What we know is that many of the Newspapers, and TV reporters aswell as message board users will do their utmost to vilify Farrage and his party and member at every opportuniy. On the Andrew Marr show Trevor Phillips of Racial equality said he went to the UKIP conference , and implied he was impressed by the quality of the membership of the conference. They were not what people are trying to make them into. On a matter of the EU apparently, 5 million Italians have signed a petition to ditch the Euro. |
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| C-too | Oct 15 2014, 04:25 PM Post #80 |
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Yes, yesteryear was very different. Michael Foot was a politician who's ideas were formed by the awfulness of pre WWII Britain. By the time of NL a different approach was needed in order to just get elected. It was I believe reasonably obvious that the electorate were not going to vote for old Labour. I suspect the only way we are going to see old Labour again is if right-wing UKip enjoy some real success, then old Labour might reappear as a counter balance. But I see that as a divisive lost cause. IMO 2001 was a tad bit too early to judge NL because their ideas for helping the many only really got going in in 2001/02. |
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The tears are rolling down me legs with that one

7:35 PM Jul 11