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1229 undercover police. Why?
Topic Started: Oct 14 2014, 08:02 AM (1,492 Views)
papasmurf
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According to this on page 9

http://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmic/wp-content/uploads/an-inspection-of-undercover-policing-in-england-and-wales.pdf
An inspection of undercover policing in England and Wales
© HMIC 2014
ISBN: 978-1-78246-515-7

From the data that we received we consider the total number of undercover officers to be 1,229.


I find it VERY difficult to believe there is a genuine need for that number of police officers to be working undercover.
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RoofGardener
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1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
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Steve K
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RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
with the terrorist threat we have it seems rather low IMHO
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papasmurf
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RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
Given the recent revelations about unrelated to actual criminal activity undercover police operations, I need a lot of convincing that number is necessary.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:09 AM
with the terrorist threat we have it seems rather low IMHO
That is an undercover "spook" job, not the police.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:13 AM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:09 AM
with the terrorist threat we have it seems rather low IMHO
That is an undercover "spook" job, not the police.
Not true

perhaps you should read your own links

"2.18 Undercover officers also play a crucial role in frustrating the plans of those who seek to commit serious crimes, for example acts of terrorism."

"2.21 It is a balance; it is a trade-off: when properly managed, supervised and overseen, undercover policing is a legitimate tactic in today’s society. We note that the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee stated, in its 2013 interim report, that undercover policing operations: “are a vital element of the fight against terrorism . ."

"12 In addition, we recognised that the 2012 review focused on the relatively narrow area of undercover policing in the context of domestic extremism and that this was only a small part of police undercover activity. We remarked that most undercover work was aimed at serious organised crime, major crime or counter terrorism"
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:19 AM
Not true

perhaps you should read your own links

I did read it, I would like some assurance that ALL of the 1229 officers are engaged on those activities in the light of recent cases of them NOT being involved in cases that were not related to that at all.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:24 AM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:19 AM
Not true

perhaps you should read your own links

I did read it, I would like some assurance that ALL of the 1229 officers are engaged on those activities in the light of recent cases of them NOT being involved in cases that were not related to that at all.
so you want not one single under cover police officer used to counter child abuse, drug smuggling, illegal weapons trading, plots to murder, commit armed robbery etc etc

Seems you want a licence for criminals to do what they wish
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:43 AM
so you want not one single under cover police officer used to counter child abuse, drug smuggling, illegal weapons trading, plots to murder, commit armed robbery etc etc

Seems you want a licence for criminals to do what they wish
I want ALL the 1229 undercover police officers engaged in those, but in the light of the recent number of cases coming to light that showed undercover officers were not engaged in operations like that. I need a lot of convincing that number are necessary.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:49 AM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:43 AM
so you want not one single under cover police officer used to counter child abuse, drug smuggling, illegal weapons trading, plots to murder, commit armed robbery etc etc

Seems you want a licence for criminals to do what they wish
I want ALL the 1229 undercover police officers engaged in those, but in the light of the recent number of cases coming to light that showed undercover officers were not engaged in operations like that. I need a lot of convincing that number are necessary.
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
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papasmurf
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RJD
Oct 14 2014, 08:54 AM
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
RJD, undercover police are used to infiltrate organisations. That serial benefit fraudsters don't exist is something you must have missed out on when it was discussed on the other forum.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 09:05 AM
RJD
Oct 14 2014, 08:54 AM
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
RJD, undercover police are used to infiltrate organisations. That serial benefit fraudsters don't exist is something you must have missed out on when it was discussed on the other forum.
Lighten up Mr Smurf, lighten up.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Oct 14 2014, 09:09 AM
Lighten up Mr Smurf, lighten up.
Why?
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Steve K
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RJD
Oct 14 2014, 09:09 AM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 09:05 AM
RJD
Oct 14 2014, 08:54 AM
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
RJD, undercover police are used to infiltrate organisations. That serial benefit fraudsters don't exist is something you must have missed out on when it was discussed on the other forum.
Lighten up Mr Smurf, lighten up.
Not in his DNA, digging holes is

PS really does not know what his complaint is.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 09:11 AM


PS really does not know what his complaint is.
I have been VERY specific about why I have concerns about what 1229 undercover police officers are being used for, in the light of cases of them infiltrating non criminal organisations and fathering children in the process.
Or infiltrating organisations that are merely embarrassing the government and/or the police.
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Pro Veritas
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:09 AM
RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
with the terrorist threat we have it seems rather low IMHO
I'm with Steve on this one.

For the record: I don't for one second believe the media rhetoric about how prevalent benefit fraud is; but if using undercover agents allows the the government to curtail benefit fraud and so increase the pool of money available to genuine benefit claimants then I can't honestly see anything wrong with that.

All The Best
Edited by Pro Veritas, Oct 14 2014, 09:55 AM.
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papasmurf
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Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 09:52 AM
I don't for one second believe the media rhetoric about how prevalent benefit fraud is; but if using undercover agents allows the the government to curtail benefit fraud and so increase the pool of money available to genuine benefit claimants then I can't honestly see anything wrong with that.

All The Best
But the police are not involved in that, the DWP has it's own fraud investigators for that. PLUS can you please explain how and where anyone could go undercover, (which involves infiltration) to catch benefit fraud.
The DWP investigation team don't do it because there is no organisation to infiltrate except in the case of a few Nigerian organised ones.
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Pro Veritas
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:16 AM
Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 09:52 AM
I don't for one second believe the media rhetoric about how prevalent benefit fraud is; but if using undercover agents allows the the government to curtail benefit fraud and so increase the pool of money available to genuine benefit claimants then I can't honestly see anything wrong with that.

All The Best
But the police are not involved in that, the DWP has it's own fraud investigators for that. PLUS can you please explain how and where anyone could go undercover, (which involves infiltration) to catch benefit fraud.
The DWP investigation team don't do it because there is no organisation to infiltrate except in the case of a few Nigerian organised ones.
You'll note I said "but if..."

That means I don't care about fine-point details here; just that IF there is benefit to doing so I have no issue with them doing it.

And I'll bet my left testicle that neither you or I truly know if there is any benefit because the nature of undercover work means you don't broadcast it to all and sundry.

All The Best
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papasmurf
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Pro Veritas
Oct 14 2014, 10:24 AM


And I'll bet my left testicle that neither you or I truly know if there is any benefit because the nature of undercover work means you don't broadcast it to all and sundry.

All The Best
My comments involve the now significant number of undercover police operation that have come to light that have precisely NOTHING to do with criminality or terrorism of any kind.
1229 officers CURRENTLY working undercover seems an excessive amount. (This is NOT about covert surveillance, it is about the infiltration of organisations.
I need a lot of convincing there are 1229 criminal/terrorist organisations in Britain.
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Tytoalba
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:43 AM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:24 AM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:19 AM
Not true

perhaps you should read your own links

I did read it, I would like some assurance that ALL of the 1229 officers are engaged on those activities in the light of recent cases of them NOT being involved in cases that were not related to that at all.
so you want not one single under cover police officer used to counter child abuse, drug smuggling, illegal weapons trading, plots to murder, commit armed robbery etc etc

Seems you want a licence for criminals to do what they wish
As the founder of the Salvation army said, Why should the devil have all the best tunes. Undercover policeing comes in many guises, and varies according to the needs from covering up ones uniform with overalls to becoming a member of a commune or Mosque.All CID officers are undercover by just being out there in civilian clothes.
Better too many than too few. IMO
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 10:34 AM
All CID officers are undercover by just being out there in civilian clothes.
You must be joking. Undercover is a specific term meaning infiltrating and joining a criminal/terrorist organisation.
It is possible to spot Coppers In Disguise at 1/2 a mile in fog.
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Affa
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Mark Kennedy was undercover among a Environmental protest group for several years - several years of promiscuous duty.


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papasmurf
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Affa
Oct 14 2014, 12:13 PM
Mark Kennedy was undercover among a Environmental protest group for several years - several years of promiscuous duty.


Precisely, and far too many similar cases have come to light.
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:40 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 10:34 AM
All CID officers are undercover by just being out there in civilian clothes.
You must be joking. Undercover is a specific term meaning infiltrating and joining a criminal/terrorist organisation.
It is possible to spot Coppers In Disguise at 1/2 a mile in fog.
I was sent to a chemist shop where a Customer had produced a forged prescription . When I got there I went to the window, but was told to get to the back of the queue,and when I got to the front again and introduced myself, he said he would never have guessed.
I was quite happy to observe the shop, and its customers, whist waiting,
I was a CID oficer in South London for some years, and know about these things Papa There is no substitute for experience. /8/ The Black cab I drove was good camouflage, but I did get fed up of people jumping in the back and demanding I took them somewhere or other especially when busy..
I once took twouniformed officers to a house to arrest someone,, and they went to the door, and where told the wanted man was not in Sitting in th cab I could see down the hallway of he house and saw a head bobbing out from behind an inner door, so I jumped out , ran down the path and past those standing in the doorway ,ran through the house and caught the wante mabn in the back garden.
He went to court and pleaded guilty, but when asked if he had anything to say he said he didnt mind being arrested by the epolice , but objected to the cab driver joining in.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 01:23 PM

I was a CID oficer in South London for some years, and know about these things Papa There is no substitute for experience.
There is no substitute for experience which is why I can spot CID at 1/2 a mile in a fog.
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Steve K
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Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 01:23 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 10:40 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 10:34 AM
All CID officers are undercover by just being out there in civilian clothes.
You must be joking. Undercover is a specific term meaning infiltrating and joining a criminal/terrorist organisation.
It is possible to spot Coppers In Disguise at 1/2 a mile in fog.
I was sent to a chemist shop where a Customer had produced a forged prescription . When I got there I went to the window, but was told to get to the back of the queue,and when I got to the front again and introduced myself, he said he would never have guessed.
I was quite happy to observe the shop, and its customers, whist waiting,
I was a CID oficer in South London for some years, and know about these things Papa There is no substitute for experience. /8/ The Black cab I drove was good camouflage, but I did get fed up of people jumping in the back and demanding I took them somewhere or other especially when busy..
I once took twouniformed officers to a house to arrest someone,, and they went to the door, and where told the wanted man was not in Sitting in th cab I could see down the hallway of he house and saw a head bobbing out from behind an inner door, so I jumped out , ran down the path and past those standing in the doorway ,ran through the house and caught the wante mabn in the back garden.
He went to court and pleaded guilty, but when asked if he had anything to say he said he didnt mind being arrested by the epolice , but objected to the cab driver joining in.
!clp! /8/

good one

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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:11 AM
RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
Given the recent revelations about unrelated to actual criminal activity undercover police operations, I need a lot of convincing that number is necessary.
Having a shag with a willing consenting adult it not a criminal act otherwise all of us would be inside !jk!
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 02:24 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 14 2014, 01:23 PM

I was a CID oficer in South London for some years, and know about these things Papa There is no substitute for experience.
There is no substitute for experience which is why I can spot CID at 1/2 a mile in a fog.
Another of your superhuman powers I suppose, I can see as far the moon and even the stars beyond it on a clear night but not in fog, but I bet you can !jk!
Edited by Stan Still, Oct 14 2014, 04:39 PM.
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:38 PM
Another of your superhuman powers I suppose, I can see as far the moon and even the stars beyond it on a clear night but not in fog, but I bet you can !jk!
Nothing superhuman about it, it is called being street wise plus knowing who the CID are, which is not a problem if like me you take the time to go to every police/neighbourhood watch/liaison meeting going.
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Steve K
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Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:33 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:11 AM
RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
Given the recent revelations about unrelated to actual criminal activity undercover police operations, I need a lot of convincing that number is necessary.
Having a shag with a willing consenting adult it not a criminal act otherwise all of us would be inside !jk!
Oh no it isn't. Obtaining sex by deception is an offence.

Which is why that detective should have been charged. Apparently the police find it perfectly acceptable to prosecute others for obtaining sex by deception but let off their own.

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Tigger
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RJD
Oct 14 2014, 08:54 AM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:49 AM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:43 AM
so you want not one single under cover police officer used to counter child abuse, drug smuggling, illegal weapons trading, plots to murder, commit armed robbery etc etc

Seems you want a licence for criminals to do what they wish
I want ALL the 1229 undercover police officers engaged in those, but in the light of the recent number of cases coming to light that showed undercover officers were not engaged in operations like that. I need a lot of convincing that number are necessary.
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
Or those ignoring the provisions of the Gas Safe register and flouting Part P regulations regarding domestic electrics?

Some very dodgy people about these days.
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Oddball 2014
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RJD
Oct 14 2014, 09:09 AM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 09:05 AM
RJD
Oct 14 2014, 08:54 AM
Maybe something to do with clamping down on serial benefit fraudsters?
RJD, undercover police are used to infiltrate organisations. That serial benefit fraudsters don't exist is something you must have missed out on when it was discussed on the other forum.
Lighten up Mr Smurf, lighten up.
He's not paranoid, he just reckons they're out to get him. ;-)
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papasmurf
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Tigger
Oct 14 2014, 07:58 PM


Some very dodgy people about these days.
Quite, finding an approved and certificated gas fitter is somewhat difficult.
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Rich
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 06:24 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:38 PM
Another of your superhuman powers I suppose, I can see as far the moon and even the stars beyond it on a clear night but not in fog, but I bet you can !jk!
Nothing superhuman about it, it is called being street wise plus knowing who the CID are, which is not a problem if like me you take the time to go to every police/neighbourhood watch/liaison meeting going.


And just how would you know who the 1229 are if they are not in uniform or even driving a black cab, there are more counties in this country than Cornwall.....or are you not aware of that?
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Stan Still
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 07:54 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:33 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:11 AM
RoofGardener
Oct 14 2014, 08:04 AM
1229 undercover policemen/women, against a population of around 50,000,000 ?

I dunno Papa', that doesn't sound unreasonable to me ?
Given the recent revelations about unrelated to actual criminal activity undercover police operations, I need a lot of convincing that number is necessary.
Having a shag with a willing consenting adult it not a criminal act otherwise all of us would be inside !jk!
Oh no it isn't. Obtaining sex by deception is an offence.

Which is why that detective should have been charged. Apparently the police find it perfectly acceptable to prosecute others for obtaining sex by deception but let off their own.

Is it an offence ? if so what bit of the law says it is?

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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 08:29 PM
Is it an offence ? if so what bit of the law says it is?

Related article:-

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/tag/sex-by-deception/
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Steve K
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Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 08:29 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 07:54 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:33 PM
papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:11 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Having a shag with a willing consenting adult it not a criminal act otherwise all of us would be inside !jk!
Oh no it isn't. Obtaining sex by deception is an offence.

Which is why that detective should have been charged. Apparently the police find it perfectly acceptable to prosecute others for obtaining sex by deception but let off their own.

Is it an offence ? if so what bit of the law says it is?

It used to be an explicit offence under the sexual offences acts, now they construe it as rape because the consent was not properly obtained. I recall some girl got banged up a few years back for a quite appalling deception.

Update: googled it. Look up Justine McNally or Fadi Sbano. Not going to post the case details
Edited by Steve K, Oct 14 2014, 08:43 PM.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 06:24 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:38 PM
Another of your superhuman powers I suppose, I can see as far the moon and even the stars beyond it on a clear night but not in fog, but I bet you can !jk!
Nothing superhuman about it, it is called being street wise plus knowing who the CID are, which is not a problem if like me you take the time to go to every police/neighbourhood watch/liaison meeting going.
Neighbourhood watch meetings where they whinge that they can't park in front of their own house and Mr Jones road tax is two weeks out of date and a few rude words daubed on the cricket pavilion, yep I can see DCI's and UC's attending them in crime ridden Cornwall !jk!

Which bit of UC's do not advertise or suddenly stop wandering about in uniform and go under do you not understand, they are hand picked given a legend and drafted in from miles away even different forces.

They never go near a nick or local plod safe meets with their handlers only the local plod will not even know who they are, if they sus they are blown they are pulled out and disappear again.

Street Wise my !moon! !jk!


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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 14 2014, 08:39 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 08:29 PM
Is it an offence ? if so what bit of the law says it is?

Related article:-

http://www.complicity.co.uk/blog/tag/sex-by-deception/
Well that's a new one on me in that case put me down for at least one offence in 1967 I told her I was an airline pilot, and one in 70, I told her I was related to a rock star both of them probably think my name is Colin !jk!
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Stan Still
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Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 08:42 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 08:29 PM
Steve K
Oct 14 2014, 07:54 PM
Stan Still
Oct 14 2014, 04:33 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Oh no it isn't. Obtaining sex by deception is an offence.

Which is why that detective should have been charged. Apparently the police find it perfectly acceptable to prosecute others for obtaining sex by deception but let off their own.

Is it an offence ? if so what bit of the law says it is?

It used to be an explicit offence under the sexual offences acts, now they construe it as rape because the consent was not properly obtained. I recall some girl got banged up a few years back for a quite appalling deception.

Update: googled it. Look up Justine McNally or Fadi Sbano. Not going to post the case details
Yes read it thanks never heard of it before as being a crime in its own right in this day and age is it new legislation?
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