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1229 undercover police. Why?
Topic Started: Oct 14 2014, 08:02 AM (1,493 Views)
papasmurf
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According to this on page 9

http://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmic/wp-content/uploads/an-inspection-of-undercover-policing-in-england-and-wales.pdf
An inspection of undercover policing in England and Wales
© HMIC 2014
ISBN: 978-1-78246-515-7

From the data that we received we consider the total number of undercover officers to be 1,229.


I find it VERY difficult to believe there is a genuine need for that number of police officers to be working undercover.
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Affa
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Tytoalba
Oct 18 2014, 03:30 PM
Affa
Oct 16 2014, 10:23 AM
johnofgwent
Oct 16 2014, 06:55 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 15 2014, 11:22 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
/8/

"That is to be established"

My thoughts exactly.


I'm thinking Greenpeace, Fathers4Justice, Animal Rights (R&D), Cruel Sports (Fox Hunting), etc. Environmental groups pose no serious threat to society imo.

I'd be critical of the MET if it wasn't infiltrating Religious extremists, organised crime, or Wacko organisations - like the CBI, that have the intention of harming or exploiting society.




Animal rights groups were releasing animals into the wild, including mink, broke into research laboritories, and caused serious damage to others. They also threatened others with assault.
Didnt one group dig up a grave and hide the body for thir own propaganda purposes? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1517356/Pensioners-body-stolen-by-animal-rights-group-is-found.html

Worth infiltrating or not?
Worth!

But do you not see that there is only such escalation when the authorities do not address the concerns of these groups and don't attempt to continue a healthy dialogue with them - the fact that they do infiltrate them does demonstrate that lack of will to continue diplomacy, They expect criminal response because their actions invite a criminal response.

I do not for a second suspect that animal rights activists, environmental groups, are made up of criminally minded villains intent on doing harm to anyone - the State must bear some responsibility for the fact that it does happen that way sometimes.



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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 03:42 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 18 2014, 03:30 PM
Animal rights groups were releasing animals into the wild, including mink, broke into research laboritories, and caused serious damage to others. They also threatened others with assault.
You are confusing animal rights campaigners with animal rights terrorists the two are separate.
But not easily identified , and one group can intermingle with the other. They need to be identified.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 01:41 PM
Steve K
Oct 18 2014, 01:37 PM

And your point was?




The vast majority of those who phone the shop a benefit fraud hotline are wrong. Even Fullfact can only make the "success rate" around 4%.
Nope

As your own FullFact link found, the hotline has a serious impact with a massive number of cases closed by "customer compliance" a shorthand for the customer admitting they were wrong and the DWP accepting a repayment instead of going for prosecution..

Posted Image

And your 0.31% figure was totally false (as you were told in February this year) and we still have not seen a reference for it.

So your post #99 and its "If there was the massive problem with fraud you think there is how come the "success" rate for the "shop a benefit fraud" hotline is only 0.31%.
In other word 99.69% of the people who phone to report a fraud, are wrong, or malicious or vindictive or all three"
are just plain false

Like it or not there is an unacceptable level of fraud and to return to topic, undercover police may well be a valid tactic to use, certainly running a fraud hotline is.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 09:55 AM
Stan Still
Oct 18 2014, 09:50 AM
I fully agree organised gangs are more difficult to catch and confirm their true identities, individual ones are easier to detect but the common theme with them is that it has taken a number of years to catch and convict them during which time they have obtained in some case large amounts of money.
Given how little benefits are and the amount of churn in the benefits system, anyone on out of work benefits for much over a year comes under very close scrutiny by JobCentre Plus and the DWP. Your definition of a large amount of money is I suspect somewhat different to mine.
Seeing it takes the average worker a long time to save a thousand pounds after they have paid all their bills and taxes, anything over that is a large amount to the average worker.

When the media do publish that a benefit fraudsters (thief) has been convicted the amount they have stolen from the taxpayers and needy is usually in double figures or higher, so and so has been at it for 5 10 or more years.

Some think that shoplifting ( theft) is a minor crime and the shopkeepers can afford it anyway they own their own business so they are rich not a real problem, but the truth is continual theft of their goods and loss of their profits puts jobs at risk, puts the price of goods up for you and me and can even destroy a business.

The fact that seems to escape you is the money stolen each year by benefit thieves every year is enough to help many people that really do need help, that is the people that are really being hurt.

Workers work about 6 months of the year just to pay their taxes before they start to earn for themselves and or their families, it is hard enough without thousands of their hard earned money being stolen year in year out by benefit thieves, it is bad enough paying for the mistakes made in the system as it is.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 03:42 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 18 2014, 03:30 PM
Animal rights groups were releasing animals into the wild, including mink, broke into research laboritories, and caused serious damage to others. They also threatened others with assault.
You are confusing animal rights campaigners with animal rights terrorists the two are separate.
No they are not that is why UC's are sent in to find out who is who and what is what if they can and identify those hidden among their numbers that is a real or potential threat to the community.

You have no idea what some of them may be up to behind closed doors of any group or organization.
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 07:23 AM
No they are not that is why UC's
Yes they are different, The ALF, are terrorists, other animal rights groups are not.
I and others who were members of military gun club affiliated to the BASC, were given a safety lecture by a member of the security services about known ALF members in the area because of attacks on people and property with BASC stickers on cars and BASC patches on shooting jackets.
The main reason being the very obvious consequences of fanatics having a go at people with loaded shotguns. Fortunately no such confrontation happened, as far as I am aware.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 07:34 AM
Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 07:23 AM
No they are not that is why UC's
Yes they are different, The ALF, are terrorists, other animal rights groups are not.
I and others who were members of military gun club affiliated to the BASC, were given a safety lecture by a member of the security services about known ALF members in the area because of attacks on people and property with BASC stickers on cars and BASC patches on shooting jackets.
The main reason being the very obvious consequences of fanatics having a go at people with loaded shotguns. Fortunately no such confrontation happened, as far as I am aware.
Hello earth calling you only know that some of the ALF are terrorists from the benefit of hindsight after they were tried and convicted not all of them were involved in crime.

As you seem to know everything at a glance tell me how many of them were recruited from other Animal Welfare groups by those who were or are still members of the more passive groups.

UC's have even been used to infiltrate biker groups not just here but elsewhere for very good reasons, not because they ride bikes but because of the serious organised criminal activities of some of them, which for once you should have noticed.

UC's are probably at work in Mosques across the UK as we speak and many other organizations or groups, which blows your opening post out of the water there are not enough of them
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 07:59 AM
Hello earth calling you only know that some of the ALF are terrorists from the benefit of hindsight after they were tried and convicted not all of them were involved in crime.

Actually "we" as in the members of the military gun club were told who they were locally before any arrests, so we could take precautions to defend ourselves.
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Stan Still
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Of course you were :-\

And of course you ducked the questions again
Edited by Stan Still, Oct 19 2014, 08:29 AM.
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 08:28 AM
Of course you were :-\

And of course you ducked the questions again
"We" were because "we" as in the civilians in the gun club had to have a what was then termed a positively vetted security clearance and be issued with a pass, in order to carry loaded firearms on a military establishment.
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Stan Still
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I am probably more vetted than you have ever been, I also hold a firearms licence and shotgun cert and the vetting for both is not that in depth, and funnily enough my local plod never tell me when they are going to arrest anyone strange as it may sound  ::)
Edited by Stan Still, Oct 19 2014, 08:45 AM.
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papasmurf
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Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 08:45 AM
I am probably more vetted than you have ever been, I also hold a firearms licence and shotgun cert and the vetting for both is not that in depth, and funnily enough my local plod never tell me when they are going to arrest anyone strange as it may sound  ::)
It wasn't the local plod. Apparently a "credible threat" was in evidence and we were all called into the military base for a meeting and were given information to help us protect ourselves.
What you think or not about that I really could not care less. I am merely stating what happened.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 08:21 AM
Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 07:59 AM
Hello earth calling you only know that some of the ALF are terrorists from the benefit of hindsight after they were tried and convicted not all of them were involved in crime.

Actually "we" as in the members of the military gun club were told who they were locally before any arrests, so we could take precautions to defend ourselves.
You were told by the authorities,who was a terrorist in your local area??
If they were terrorists why didn't they get arrested,instead of getting there names branded about to you and your mates.
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 08:57 AM

If they were terrorists why didn't they get arrested,instead of getting there names branded about to you and your mates.
Highway, they were arrested eventually, and the information was for members of the club only, not to be "branded" about.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 09:09 AM
HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 08:57 AM

If they were terrorists why didn't they get arrested,instead of getting there names branded about to you and your mates.
Highway, they were arrested eventually, and the information was for members of the club only, not to be "branded" about.
I take it when you mention eventually,that was after you and how many of your pals were told,
When you said arrested I noticed you didn't say found guilty in a court of law.
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:11 AM
,
When you said arrested I noticed you didn't say found guilty in a court of law.
Arrested it just that arrested. They were charged and tried and found guilty of various offences, and as far as I am aware at least one of them in still in jail.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 09:13 AM
HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:11 AM
,
When you said arrested I noticed you didn't say found guilty in a court of law.
Arrested it just that arrested. They were charged and tried and found guilty of various offences, and as far as I am aware at least one of them in still in jail.
I take it there defence lawyer at the trial didn't know you and others were warned that they were terrorists before hand.
Found guilty of various offences ,,no mention of terrorist offences I see
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:18 AM
I take it there defence lawyer at the trial didn't know you and others were warned that they were terrorists before hand.
Why should they be? Various groups of people being warned they are targets of various people is standard practice.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 09:23 AM
HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:18 AM
I take it there defence lawyer at the trial didn't know you and others were warned that they were terrorists before hand.
Why should they be? Various groups of people being warned they are targets of various people is standard practice.
But that's not you said,didn't you say you and your pals were told they were terrorists
Still no answer about what there convictions were for I see?
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Tytoalba
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Affa
Oct 18 2014, 03:43 PM
Tytoalba
Oct 18 2014, 03:30 PM
Affa
Oct 16 2014, 10:23 AM
johnofgwent
Oct 16 2014, 06:55 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep


I'm thinking Greenpeace, Fathers4Justice, Animal Rights (R&D), Cruel Sports (Fox Hunting), etc. Environmental groups pose no serious threat to society imo.

I'd be critical of the MET if it wasn't infiltrating Religious extremists, organised crime, or Wacko organisations - like the CBI, that have the intention of harming or exploiting society.




Animal rights groups were releasing animals into the wild, including mink, broke into research laboritories, and caused serious damage to others. They also threatened others with assault.
Didnt one group dig up a grave and hide the body for thir own propaganda purposes? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1517356/Pensioners-body-stolen-by-animal-rights-group-is-found.html

Worth infiltrating or not?
Worth!

But do you not see that there is only such escalation when the authorities do not address the concerns of these groups and don't attempt to continue a healthy dialogue with them - the fact that they do infiltrate them does demonstrate that lack of will to continue diplomacy, They expect criminal response because their actions invite a criminal response.

I do not for a second suspect that animal rights activists, environmental groups, are made up of criminally minded villains intent on doing harm to anyone - the State must bear some responsibility for the fact that it does happen that way sometimes.



I give up
There would obviously be no extremeists, crackpots, anarchists and terrorrst in Britiain if only the government would listen and carry out their wishes, even if it clashed with common sense, and opposed the will of the majority.

I fully understand your POV.

The fact that nothing is done without the sanction of the home secretary, part of the elected government, after discussion with the forces of Law and order, after careful considreration, taking into account the fact that agreived parties can resort to law and make lawful complaints with the help of no win no fee solicitors, has no bearing on it;.
The fact that it is a necessery strategy to protect the majority or minority, that has had a great deal of success still makes you and others think that there is too many of them undercover without knowing the ins and outs of the facts.
There iare protections in place to protect our civil rights, and on ballance of need and risk they are necessery.
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:56 AM
But that's not you said,didn't you say you and your pals were told they were terrorists
Still no answer about what there convictions were for I see?
Highway stop trolling, neither I or anyone else on the forum is interested. I neither know nor care what the convictions were for, all I care about is the terrorists were stopped.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 10:08 AM
HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:56 AM
But that's not you said,didn't you say you and your pals were told they were terrorists
Still no answer about what there convictions were for I see?
Highway stop trolling, neither I or anyone else on the forum is interested. I neither know nor care what the convictions were for, all I care about is the terrorists were stopped.
No trolling here
You mean to say you and others were told there were terrorist,and when they went to court you didn't take an interest in what they were charged with.
No way would you do that ever.
Don't be ashamed that they didn't get found guilty of being terrorists
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 09:23 AM
HIGHWAY
Oct 19 2014, 09:18 AM
I take it there defence lawyer at the trial didn't know you and others were warned that they were terrorists before hand.
Why should they be? Various groups of people being warned they are targets of various people is standard practice.
No it is not

It is a serious offence called conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by pre influencing local opinion and potential jurors by such naming.

Now you knowing who told you specific names are under a legal duty to report this because as others posted, their defence lawyers should have been informed to prevent a miscarriage of justice. If you do not you will be committing an offence.

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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 19 2014, 10:30 AM
No it is not

It is a serious offence called conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by pre influencing local opinion and potential jurors by such naming.


This was not information broadcast all over the local area it was very specific to a few people under legal constraints of keeping it to themselves.
Around half were serving armed service personnel.
Such warnings do happen outside of that when the police become aware of that an attack on someone may be imminent. I have had one such warning myself from the police to leave myself to leave my home straight away for a few hours. (That was 20 years ago.)
The only odd thing I saw afterwards was a local pot-head with a broken arm he did not have the day before. He has avoided me ever since.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 10:39 AM
Steve K
Oct 19 2014, 10:30 AM
No it is not

It is a serious offence called conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by pre influencing local opinion and potential jurors by such naming.


This was not information broadcast all over the local area it was very specific to a few people under legal constraints of keeping it to themselves.
Around half were serving armed service personnel.
Such warnings do happen outside of that when the police become aware of that an attack on someone may be imminent. I have had one such warning myself from the police to leave myself to leave my home straight away for a few hours. (That was 20 years ago.)
The only odd thing I saw afterwards was a local pot-head with a broken arm he did not have the day before. He has avoided me ever since.
Unbelievable,why do you come out with these kind of stories?
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Steve K
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Still illegal to do that PS. You can tell how much any secrecy was respected by the fact you posted it here (he who has a secret to keep must keep it a secret that he has a secret to keep)

I've seen it happen here too. Police start a whispering campaign against someone they believe is guilty but do not believe they can prove it. He was eventually acquitted and rightly.
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Stan Still
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papasmurf
Oct 19 2014, 08:52 AM
Stan Still
Oct 19 2014, 08:45 AM
I am probably more vetted than you have ever been, I also hold a firearms licence and shotgun cert and the vetting for both is not that in depth, and funnily enough my local plod never tell me when they are going to arrest anyone strange as it may sound  ::)
It wasn't the local plod. Apparently a "credible threat" was in evidence and we were all called into the military base for a meeting and were given information to help us protect ourselves.
What you think or not about that I really could not care less. I am merely stating what happened.
LOB !jk!
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