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a rock and a hard place
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Topic Started: Oct 14 2014, 01:08 PM (363 Views)
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Alberich
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Oct 14 2014, 01:08 PM
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Labour has come out and has openly said that it will not take part in cross-party discussions about "English votes for English laws". This cannot be an easy position for Labour to be in. Anyone with a sense of justice must realise that the present system is both unfair and unsupportable, and the removal of the right of Scottish MPs to vote on issues purely affecting the English attracts popular support from all sides of the electorate. Especially as both the conservatives AND Labour are now honour bound to keep the rash promises they made just before the Scottish referendum. With yet more powers being devolved north of the border, the argument in favour of the status quo viv a vis Scottish MPs in Westminster cannot be sustained much longer.
With the Commons debating devolution, Labour has decided to boycott a body set up by Cameron to examine the future role of English MPs in the House, no doubt hoping that if they can get the issue into the long grass, it will quietly go away. I suppose they can do little else really, as Scottish MP's, almost to a man, are Labour, and the removal of their support on most government business would make the task of Labour ever holding a working majority extremely difficult and remote. But once this body comes to the only decision they can, and recommends the removal of Scottish votes on English matters, then if the coalition puts it to the vote, and speaks with one mind on this issue (and that would entail trusting the duplicitous Cleggie to deliver) they can out-vote Labour, and force the measure through.
As if poor old ED hasn't got enough to worry about.......
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Pro Veritas
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Oct 14 2014, 01:37 PM
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Labour has just become even less electable.
Labour championed and facilitated devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and now the English wanted to be treated with the same respect we get told "No way".
How very discriminatory of Labour. How very hypocritical of Labour.
How very typical of Labour.
All The Best
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somersetli
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Oct 14 2014, 01:55 PM
Post #3
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- Oct 14 2014, 01:37 PM
Labour has just become even less electable.
Labour championed and facilitated devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and now the English wanted to be treated with the same respect we get told "No way".
How very discriminatory of Labour. How very hypocritical of Labour.
How very typical of Labour.
All The Best And people still want to return them to office................incredible!
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Affa
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Oct 14 2014, 01:55 PM
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I saw it coming, see the where it is going. Be careful what you wish for is my advice. I have indicated already during the mention of it in the Scottish referendum debate that all this is leading towards PR being brought in. There is no other option.
Tories wanting a one party domination of English politics are storing troubles they cannot contend with - The Establishment will not allow it imo. It creates problems they do not need, and for no gains at all.
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papasmurf
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Oct 14 2014, 02:26 PM
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- somersetli
- Oct 14 2014, 01:55 PM
And people still want to return them to office................incredible! They don't want the Tories in office, so it is a case of hold your nose and vote for whoever is most likely to keep a Tory out.
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Deleted User
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Oct 14 2014, 03:09 PM
Post #6
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Deleted User
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As it happens I agree with Affa that PR is the obvious ultimate resolution for British politics. However to imply that it is somehow essential for English devolution is, in my view, disingenuous.
Affa observes that Tories wanting Conservative domination in England is not a solution that is in England's interests. Again I agree; whilever we have a FPtP electoral system it only functions when we have an effective opposition. Once again to link consideration of PR to English Devolution simply obfuscates the issue, and in doing so effectively ensures that Labour will retain a democratically unjustifiable advantage on any Westminster vote relating to English only issues, simply by delaying resolution of the issue.
The West Lothian question has been an undemocratic carbuncle on the backside of British politics since the introduction of Scottish devolution. The cross party pledges, given in panic, by the Westminster establishment have further devolved Scotland's government to the point where it is all but independent in its home affairs. This makes resolution of the issue of English devolution even more democratically essential.
Labour's refusal to even entertain cross party talks to resolve the issue is evidence enough that Miliband and his shadow cabinet are putting party political interests ahead of English democracy and shame on them for that.
If Miliband was a true statesman, rather than a political pygmy, who genuinely wished to consider the issue of English devolution over an extended period of time, he would simply demand a mandate within the Labour Party that no Scottish Labour MP would vote under any circumstances on an English only issue, until such time as England's Westminster MPs resolved the issue once and for all. This could be accomplished within a week! All it takes is Labour's integrity! All that is missing is Labour's integrity!
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Alberich
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Oct 14 2014, 03:52 PM
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I don't disagree with you, Major, but see it from poor old Ed's point of view. I have; and I haven't stopped laughing yet! The words "hoist" and "petard" come to mind.
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RJD
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Oct 14 2014, 04:15 PM
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Miliband really is between a rock and a hard place, but he should be a Statesman and put our democracy ahead of narrow political opportunity. Bet he judges.
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Stan Still
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Oct 14 2014, 04:29 PM
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- Pro Veritas
- Oct 14 2014, 01:37 PM
Labour has just become even less electable.
Labour championed and facilitated devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and now the English wanted to be treated with the same respect we get told "No way".
How very discriminatory of Labour. How very hypocritical of Labour.
How very typical of Labour.
All The Best Blimey I agree with you again
Labour do not want to loose their seats in Scotland IMO
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Stan Still
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Oct 14 2014, 04:30 PM
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- somersetli
- Oct 14 2014, 01:55 PM
- Pro Veritas
- Oct 14 2014, 01:37 PM
Labour has just become even less electable.
Labour championed and facilitated devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and now the English wanted to be treated with the same respect we get told "No way".
How very discriminatory of Labour. How very hypocritical of Labour.
How very typical of Labour.
All The Best
And people still want to return them to office................incredible! No gullible is more apt
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Cymru
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Oct 14 2014, 05:52 PM
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- papasmurf
- Oct 14 2014, 02:26 PM
- somersetli
- Oct 14 2014, 01:55 PM
And people still want to return them to office................incredible!
They don't want the Tories in office, so it is a case of hold your nose and vote for whoever is most likely to keep a Tory out. Voting for Tory Mk 2 won't do that.
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papasmurf
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Oct 14 2014, 06:26 PM
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- Cymru
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Voting for Tory Mk 2 won't do that. Which "Tory Mark 2" New Labour or UKIP. Neither of who are in 2nd place where I live.
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Cymru
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Oct 14 2014, 06:29 PM
Post #13
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- papasmurf
- Oct 14 2014, 06:26 PM
- Cymru
- Oct 14 2014, 05:52 PM
Voting for Tory Mk 2 won't do that.
Which "Tory Mark 2" New Labour or UKIP. Neither of who are in 2nd place where I live. Don't forget the enablers of the current mess, the Lib Dems.
Edited by Cymru, Oct 14 2014, 06:30 PM.
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papasmurf
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Oct 14 2014, 06:40 PM
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- Cymru
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Don't forget the enablers of the current mess, the Lib Dems. I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of keeping the Tories out, because they just are not fit for office.
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Affa
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Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
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- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 03:09 PM
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If Miliband was a true statesman, rather than a political pygmy, who genuinely wished to consider the issue of English devolution over an extended period of time, he would simply demand a mandate within the Labour Party that no Scottish Labour MP would vote under any circumstances on an English only issue, until such time as England's Westminster MPs resolved the issue once and for all. This could be accomplished within a week! All it takes is Labour's integrity! All that is missing is Labour's integrity!
It may happen in that way, but there will be resistance to such a pragmatic solution - for entirely Party Political motives. So it will not be put to rest. As it is I know of only one 'vote' where Scottish MPs actually have influenced English policy (not theirs), and that was the Blair government pushing through Student Fees.
Those votes were needed because both the Conservatives and the Liberals OPPOSED student fees. Lo-and-behold, this Conservative + Liberal coalition immediately revoked, sorry, increased Student fees on taking over.
So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
Edited by Affa, Oct 14 2014, 11:33 PM.
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Deleted User
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Oct 14 2014, 10:35 PM
Post #16
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Deleted User
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- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 03:09 PM
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If Miliband was a true statesman, rather than a political pygmy, who genuinely wished to consider the issue of English devolution over an extended period of time, he would simply demand a mandate within the Labour Party that no Scottish Labour MP would vote under any circumstances on an English only issue, until such time as England's Westminster MPs resolved the issue once and for all. This could be accomplished within a week! All it takes is Labour's integrity! All that is missing is Labour's integrity!
It may happen in that way, but there will be resistance to such a pragmatic solution - for entirely Party Political motives. So it will not be put to rest. As it is I know of only one 'vote' where Scottish MPs actually have influenced English policy (not theirs), and that was the Blair government pushing through Student Fees. Those votes were needed because both the Conservatives and the Liberals OPPOSED student fees. Low-and-behold, this Conservative + Liberal coalition immediately revoked, sorry, increased Student fees on taking over. So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
That you consider it not only acceptable, but a fuss about nothing, for a Scottish MP to have a say, influence and a vote over an issue in England, but an English MP to have no say, influence or vote at all over an issue in Scotland almost leaves me speechless with dismay. Such democratic injustice is beyond rational defence, and you let yourself down by trying to justify it.
You look to the past when you refer to a mountain from a non-existant mole-hill, and in doing so you conveniently forget the additional devolutionary powers which are to be granted to Scotland in January including tax raising powers and the NHS. This will have the effect of increasing the number of English only issues on which Scottish MPs will be able to infuence and vote including, to name but a few, English tax revenue policies, the English NHS, and English transport policy. Anything other than an urgent resolution to this issue is quite simply an undemocratic outrage.
What will happen next May I don't know, but I suspect and fervently hope that Labour's current policy of putting their own party political interest above the democratic rights of the vast majority of the British population will cost them dear, particularly in the northern constituencies.
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Affa
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Oct 14 2014, 11:27 PM
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- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 10:35 PM
- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 03:09 PM
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As it is I know of only one 'vote' where Scottish MPs actually have influenced English policy (not theirs), and that was the Blair government pushing through Student Fees.
Those votes were needed because both the Conservatives and the Liberals OPPOSED student fees. Low-and-behold, this Conservative + Liberal coalition immediately revoked, sorry, increased Student fees on taking over.
So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
That you consider it not only acceptable, but a fuss about nothing, for a Scottish MP to have a say, influence and a vote over an issue in England, but an English MP to have no say, influence or vote at all over an issue in Scotland almost leaves me speechless with dismay. Such democratic injustice is beyond rational defence, and you let yourself down by trying to justify it.
Where have I said it was justifiable? All I have done is demonstrate that there has not been any "Democratic injustice", it's all in the mind ....... a possibility (that is not not just), but one that has not been exercised to any meaningful extent. Since you are outraged at my apparent 'beyond rational defence', should we not examine yours? Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government. What you find so despicable about Scottish members having a vote on English affairs ( which doesn't happen) is diminished by the extensive legislation and policy matters imposed on the others by an English dominated Westminster Assembly which continually does happen. Do you now retract?
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johnofgwent
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Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
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Affa
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Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government.
On the other hand, for the majority of MY lifetime when a man or woman stood up in westminster and said something about health or education or transport or several other issues their words affected me.
For the past seventeen years, every time the BBC news has carried a poece about someone standing up in westminster and saying something about health or education or transport they might as well be pissing into the wind, because these issues are controlled here by a bunch of power mad tossers who run riot and ride roughshod over the electorate knowing they can blame westminster for not providing enough money, and westminster love it too because any attemot to hold them accountable gets you a one line answer "this is a devolved matter"
Devolution has been an unmitigated f*cking disaster.
And that was when the majority party in "power" in cardiff was the SAME one as in power in london. Except that in Cardiff they still had the old labour dinosaurs so maybe they were not so alike after all ...
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Deleted User
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Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
Post #19
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Deleted User
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- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 11:27 PM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 10:35 PM
- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 03:09 PM
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As it is I know of only one 'vote' where Scottish MPs actually have influenced English policy (not theirs), and that was the Blair government pushing through Student Fees.
Those votes were needed because both the Conservatives and the Liberals OPPOSED student fees. Low-and-behold, this Conservative + Liberal coalition immediately revoked, sorry, increased Student fees on taking over.
So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
That you consider it not only acceptable, but a fuss about nothing, for a Scottish MP to have a say, influence and a vote over an issue in England, but an English MP to have no say, influence or vote at all over an issue in Scotland almost leaves me speechless with dismay. Such democratic injustice is beyond rational defence, and you let yourself down by trying to justify it.
Where have I said it was justifiable? All I have done is demonstrate that there has not been any "Democratic injustice", it's all in the mind ....... a possibility (that is not not just), but one that has not been exercised to any meaningful extent. Since you are outraged at my apparent 'beyond rational defence', should we not examine yours? Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government. What you find so despicable about Scottish members having a vote on English affairs ( which doesn't happen) is diminished by the extensive legislation and policy matters imposed on the others by an English dominated Westminster Assembly which continually does happen. Do you now retract?
You attempt to justify it by downplaying future risk by drawing on your personal and therefore partisan past experience. As they say 'past performance is not necessarily indicative of future performance' and it certainly isn't when the whole basis of comparison will change. To do this is really most disingenuous. You ignore the considerable increase in Scottish devolution which by definition increases legislation which will affect the UK excluding Scotland. The issue therefore becomes much larger with greater and more serious risk of unjustifiable democratic abuse. In trying to draw parallels you ignore the fact that invariably Westminster legislation applies to Britain and this is not the issue. Indeed as far as I can recall the only times specific preference is given by Westminster to a single UK nation, is when they are being given more of the taxpayers largesse and regrettably this is to continue into the future under the unfair and discredited Barnett Formula. How do you electorally justify Scottish MPs having a say, an influence and a vote on matters which will not directly affect them in the rest of the UK, but MPs in the rest of the UK have no say whatsoever on comparative issues in Scotland? Up to now you have just huffed and puffed about it being a 'fuss about nothing'. That Affa is simply not good enough and there will be tens of thousands of Labour voters, already disillusioned with their 'traditional' party who will add this to all the other reasons to either not vote at all or to vote for UKIP. In addition there are already a number of Labour MPs who have dislpayed some integrity and voiced disquiet or open criticism of Miliband and the Labour Party's party political stance over the democratic rights of 92% of the British electorate. You misquote me. I am not outraged by your weak and uncredible defence of this issue; I was merely expressing my dismay that someone who espouses a belief in democracy should be so hypocritical as to dismiss its necessity in this instance. I referred to the fact that failure to arrive at a rapid resolution to the issue would be an undemocratic outrage. So why would I possibly wish to retract my stated view which stands.
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Rich
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Oct 15 2014, 12:29 AM
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- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 10:35 PM
- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
Where have I said it was justifiable? All I have done is demonstrate that there has not been any "Democratic injustice", it's all in the mind ....... a possibility (that is not not just), but one that has not been exercised to any meaningful extent. Since you are outraged at my apparent 'beyond rational defence', should we not examine yours? Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government. What you find so despicable about Scottish members having a vote on English affairs ( which doesn't happen) is diminished by the extensive legislation and policy matters imposed on the others by an English dominated Westminster Assembly which continually does happen. Do you now retract?
You attempt to justify it by downplaying future risk by drawing on your personal and therefore partisan past experience. As they say 'past performance is not necessarily indicative of future performance' and it certainly isn't when the whole basis of comparison will change. To do this is really most disingenuous. You ignore the considerable increase in Scottish devolution which by definition increases legislation which will affect the UK excluding Scotland. The issue therefore becomes much larger with greater and more serious risk of unjustifiable democratic abuse. In trying to draw parallels you ignore the fact that invariably Westminster legislation applies to Britain and this is not the issue. Indeed as far as I can recall the only times specific preference is given by Westminster to a single UK nation, is when they are being given more of the taxpayers largesse and regrettably this is to continue into the future under the unfair and discredited Barnett Formula. How do you electorally justify Scottish MPs having a say, an influence and a vote on matters which will not directly affect them in the rest of the UK, but MPs in the rest of the UK have no say whatsoever on comparative issues in Scotland? Up to now you have just huffed and puffed about it being a 'fuss about nothing'. That Affa is simply not good enough and there will be tens of thousands of Labour voters, already disillusioned with their 'traditional' party who will add this to all the other reasons to either not vote at all or to vote for UKIP. In addition there are already a number of Labour MPs who have dislpayed some integrity and voiced disquiet or open criticism of Miliband and the Labour Party's party political stance over the democratic rights of 92% of the British electorate. You misquote me. I am not outraged by your weak and uncredible defence of this issue; I was merely expressing my dismay that someone who espouses a belief in democracy should be so hypocritical as to dismiss its necessity in this instance. I referred to the fact that failure to arrive at a rapid resolution to the issue would be an undemocratic outrage. So why would I possibly wish to retract my stated view which stands.
As far as I am concerned, the issue is exactly the same as the EU telling the UK what they can and cannot do, but at least the Scottish MP's were voted in by UK voters unlike the EU non entities whom I cannot even name.
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Affa
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Oct 15 2014, 12:45 AM
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- Major Sinic
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- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 08:48 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Where have I said it was justifiable? What you find so despicable about Scottish members having a vote on English affairs ( which doesn't happen) is diminished by the extensive legislation and policy matters imposed on the others by an English dominated Westminster Assembly which continually does happen. Do you now retract?
You attempt to justify it by downplaying future risk by drawing on your personal and therefore partisan past experience. As they say 'past performance is not necessarily indicative of future performance' and it certainly isn't when the whole basis of comparison will change. To do this is really most disingenuous. I was merely expressing my dismay that someone who espouses a belief in democracy should be so hypocritical as to dismiss its necessity in this instance.
I retire, defeated ......... there is no point carrying on. I have not tried to claim the system is democratic, is justifiable. I have instead attempted to explain why it is not dangerous in any harmful way when behaviour has dictated that these MPs do not exert the influence they have on matters that do not affect them. This being so the hue-and-cry for reparations is the noise of a rabble Conservative party tasting blood. As for Miliband - I disregard him, quite possibly the worst choice of leader of ANY party in my time - and there are some duffs. IDS was a liability, M Howard a crook, Foot a fool, Kinnock a clown, but Ed is simply a non-entity .... imo. Not for the first time am I tempted to wish for you people the thing you are wanting - just so that you are made cruelly aware of the consequences you are too blind to see.
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Affa
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Oct 15 2014, 12:57 AM
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- johnofgwent
- Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
Affa - Quote:
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Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government.
On the other hand, for the majority of MY lifetime when a man or woman stood up in westminster and said something about health or education or transport or several other issues their words affected me. For the past seventeen years, ....... these issues are controlled here by a bunch of power mad tossers who run riot and ride roughshod over the electorate knowing they can blame westminster for not providing enough money, and westminster love it too because any attemot to hold them accountable gets you a one line answer "this is a devolved matter" Devolution has been an unmitigated f*cking disaster.
Yet another good reason to want PR, JoG, or don't you agree.
Once the Brexit argument is resolved, and if the EU aim of 'Regionalisation' is shelved, then perhaps politics will take a different course ..... as it is I have little optimism that the future will be any better.
The Golden Age has been, is now gone, and soon remembered only in history books.
On the other hand, we might all be urged to learn Chinese ....... wouldn't that be a fun challenge.
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Rich
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Oct 15 2014, 01:43 AM
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- Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
Affa - Quote:
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Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government.
On the other hand, for the majority of MY lifetime when a man or woman stood up in westminster and said something about health or education or transport or several other issues their words affected me. For the past seventeen years, ....... these issues are controlled here by a bunch of power mad tossers who run riot and ride roughshod over the electorate knowing they can blame westminster for not providing enough money, and westminster love it too because any attemot to hold them accountable gets you a one line answer "this is a devolved matter" Devolution has been an unmitigated f*cking disaster.
Yet another good reason to want PR, JoG, or don't you agree. Once the Brexit argument is resolved, and if the EU aim of 'Regionalisation' is shelved, then perhaps politics will take a different course ..... as it is I have little optimism that the future will be any better. The Golden Age has been, is now gone, and soon remembered only in history books. On the other hand, we might all be urged to learn Chinese ....... wouldn't that be a fun challenge.
Just ask the electorate what they want.....right now, what could be simpler than that?
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Deleted User
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Oct 15 2014, 08:37 AM
Post #24
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Deleted User
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- Rich
- Oct 15 2014, 12:29 AM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
- Affa
- Oct 14 2014, 11:27 PM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 14 2014, 10:35 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep So in effect, in actuality, Scottish MPs have not exercised that power to determine English policy at all ...... a big fuss over nothing. A mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.
which doesn't happen) is diminished by the extensive legislation and policy matters imposed on the others by an English dominated Westminster Assembly which continually does happen.
Do you now retract?
You attempt to justify it by downplaying future risk by drawing on your personal and therefore partisan past experience. As they say 'past performance is not necessarily indicative of future performance' and it certainly isn't when the whole basis of comparison will change. To do this is really most disingenuous. You ignore the considerable increase in Scottish devolution which by definition increases legislation which will affect the UK excluding Scotland. The issue therefore becomes much larger with greater and more serious risk of unjustifiable democratic abuse. In trying to draw parallels you ignore the fact that invariably Westminster legislation applies to Britain and this is not the issue. Indeed as far as I can recall the only times specific preference is given by Westminster to a single UK nation, is when they are being given more of the taxpayers largesse and regrettably this is to continue into the future under the unfair and discredited Barnett Formula. How do you electorally justify Scottish MPs having a say, an influence and a vote on matters which will not directly affect them in the rest of the UK, but MPs in the rest of the UK have no say whatsoever on comparative issues in Scotland? Up to now you have just huffed and puffed about it being a 'fuss about nothing'. That Affa is simply not good enough and there will be tens of thousands of Labour voters, already disillusioned with their 'traditional' party who will add this to all the other reasons to either not vote at all or to vote for UKIP. In addition there are already a number of Labour MPs who have dislpayed some integrity and voiced disquiet or open criticism of Miliband and the Labour Party's party political stance over the democratic rights of 92% of the British electorate. You misquote me. I am not outraged by your weak and uncredible defence of this issue; I was merely expressing my dismay that someone who espouses a belief in democracy should be so hypocritical as to dismiss its necessity in this instance. I referred to the fact that failure to arrive at a rapid resolution to the issue would be an undemocratic outrage. So why would I possibly wish to retract my stated view which stands.
As far as I am concerned, the issue is exactly the same as the EU telling the UK what they can and cannot do, but at least the Scottish MP's were voted in by UK voters unlike the EU non entities whom I cannot even name.
Quite! I have no objection to elected Scottish MPs voting on UK wide issues i.e. those that will directly affect Scotland as well as the remainder of Britain. It is on the issue of Scottish MPs having the right to vote on issues relating solely to the UK excluding Scotland that I find electorally and democratically unjustifiable. At least Wales and N.Ireland have a degree of self-government but this is denied to England, although I would argue that Welsh and N.Ireland MPs should not be permitted to vote on English only matters. Unless this matter is resolved a Scottish MP with a constituency in Scotland will have the right to vote on tax measures, health issues, transport policy as well as education and welfare policy which have absolutely no direct affect on him or his constituents or his country while the English MP representing me in my English constituency will have no say or vote on Scottish measures. Being something of a cynic, I have no doubt that Labour, Lib Dem supporters and others of a leftwing persuasion fully understand the undemocratic nature of the situation and that it can only become even more democratically unacceptable following the implementation of 'devo max' for Scotland, but are happy to allow it to continue for as long as possible, while ever it benefits their own political viewpoint.
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Malum Unus
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Oct 15 2014, 09:33 AM
Post #25
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Hater of Political Correctness and Legalese
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- Rich
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- johnofgwent
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Affa - Quote:
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Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government.
On the other hand, for the majority of MY lifetime when a man or woman stood up in westminster and said something about health or education or transport or several other issues their words affected me. For the past seventeen years, ....... these issues are controlled here by a bunch of power mad tossers who run riot and ride roughshod over the electorate knowing they can blame westminster for not providing enough money, and westminster love it too because any attemot to hold them accountable gets you a one line answer "this is a devolved matter" Devolution has been an unmitigated f*cking disaster.
Yet another good reason to want PR, JoG, or don't you agree. Once the Brexit argument is resolved, and if the EU aim of 'Regionalisation' is shelved, then perhaps politics will take a different course ..... as it is I have little optimism that the future will be any better. The Golden Age has been, is now gone, and soon remembered only in history books. On the other hand, we might all be urged to learn Chinese ....... wouldn't that be a fun challenge.
Just ask the electorate what they want.....right now, what could be simpler than that? And were we under a democracy, they might do just that.
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C-too
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Oct 15 2014, 10:04 AM
Post #26
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- papasmurf
- Oct 14 2014, 06:26 PM
- Cymru
- Oct 14 2014, 05:52 PM
Voting for Tory Mk 2 won't do that.
Which "Tory Mark 2" New Labour or UKIP. Neither of who are in 2nd place where I live. You will never see a Tory party that is as far left as New Labour.
The Tories were stuck with Nationalisation from the 1950s to the 1980s. That didn't make the Tories socialists. NL were stuck with the Financial Services/Free Market economy for most of their 13 years in office. That didn't make NL Tories.
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C-too
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Oct 15 2014, 10:09 AM
Post #27
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- Rich
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- johnofgwent
- Oct 15 2014, 12:14 AM
Affa - Quote:
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Scotland (Wales, N Ireland too) have never elected a majority Conservative government in my lifetime. However, for the majority of my lifetime these regions have been governed by an English elected Tory government.
On the other hand, for the majority of MY lifetime when a man or woman stood up in westminster and said something about health or education or transport or several other issues their words affected me. For the past seventeen years, ....... these issues are controlled here by a bunch of power mad tossers who run riot and ride roughshod over the electorate knowing they can blame westminster for not providing enough money, and westminster love it too because any attemot to hold them accountable gets you a one line answer "this is a devolved matter" Devolution has been an unmitigated f*cking disaster.
Yet another good reason to want PR, JoG, or don't you agree. Once the Brexit argument is resolved, and if the EU aim of 'Regionalisation' is shelved, then perhaps politics will take a different course ..... as it is I have little optimism that the future will be any better. The Golden Age has been, is now gone, and soon remembered only in history books. On the other hand, we might all be urged to learn Chinese ....... wouldn't that be a fun challenge.
Just ask the electorate what they want.....right now, what could be simpler than that? The sensible thing to do would be the removal of all the propaganda nonsense followed by an unbiased apraisal of the all things appertaining to the well being of the UK put forward so that when asking what the people think, the answers would be based upon reality, not propaganda.
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RJD
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Oct 15 2014, 11:20 AM
Post #28
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Don't forget the enablers of the current mess, the Lib Dems.
I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of keeping the Tories out, because they just are not fit for office. I hold the same view wrt to Labour, except I would not vote BNP. I believe that the priority, whilst I wish to see reforms in the EU asap, is to deny Labour the chance of office as I do not believe that the economy could stand yet another dose of expensive statism and increasing the size of big nanny will only destroy the chances of real job creation. I put the creation of real jobs as paramount.
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Deleted User
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Oct 15 2014, 11:37 AM
Post #29
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Deleted User
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- RJD
- Oct 15 2014, 11:20 AM
- papasmurf
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- Cymru
- Oct 14 2014, 06:29 PM
Don't forget the enablers of the current mess, the Lib Dems.
I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of keeping the Tories out, because they just are not fit for office.
I hold the same view wrt to Labour, except I would not vote BNP. I believe that the priority, whilst I wish to see reforms in the EU asap, is to deny Labour the chance of office as I do not believe that the economy could stand yet another dose of expensive statism and increasing the size of big nanny will only destroy the chances of real job creation. I put the creation of real jobs as paramount. I am with you on this RJD. Despite improvements in the economy and employment in recent years the UK is still too fragile to withstand another Labour dominated administration, especially one so anti-business, anti-wealth creators, anti-middleclass and led by the two Eds. In this case two Eds are not better than one!!!
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RJD
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Oct 15 2014, 11:51 AM
Post #30
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- Oct 14 2014, 06:29 PM
Don't forget the enablers of the current mess, the Lib Dems.
I will vote for whoever stands the best chance of keeping the Tories out, because they just are not fit for office.
I hold the same view wrt to Labour, except I would not vote BNP. I believe that the priority, whilst I wish to see reforms in the EU asap, is to deny Labour the chance of office as I do not believe that the economy could stand yet another dose of expensive statism and increasing the size of big nanny will only destroy the chances of real job creation. I put the creation of real jobs as paramount.
I am with you on this RJD. Despite improvements in the economy and employment in recent years the UK is still too fragile to withstand another Labour dominated administration, especially one so anti-business, anti-wealth creators, anti-middleclass and led by the two Eds. In this case two Eds are not better than one!!! I am constantly surprised by the total disinterest the left has with job creation, they appear totally fixated on what can be taken on not on what can be created. I think Wilson and Benn were the last Labour politicians that believed wealth creation to be important, however, for them only if under their political control. I am also surprised that most of the rest of the World has moved on from the 20th C. and has embraced the capitalist market (regulated capitalist market) that so many here in the UK are stuck in some 1970s time warp.
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Affa
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Oct 15 2014, 04:18 PM
Post #31
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I hold the same view wrt to Labour, except I would not vote BNP.
I am with you on this RJD. Despite improvements in the economy and employment in recent years the UK is still too fragile to withstand another Labour dominated administration, especially one so anti-business, anti-wealth creators, anti-middleclass and led by the two Eds. In this case two Eds are not better than one!!!
I am constantly surprised by the total disinterest the left has with job creation, they appear totally fixated on what can be taken on not on what can be created.
The only error laden fixation I keep coming across is this ridiculous notion that the Labour Party are "anti-business", and are "totally disinterested with job creation".
What a wonderful technique it is to first produce a completely false description, and to then ridicule those wrongly identified for being callously maligned.
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Deleted User
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Oct 16 2014, 11:43 AM
Post #32
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- Affa
- Oct 15 2014, 04:18 PM
- RJD
- Oct 15 2014, 11:51 AM
- Major Sinic
- Oct 15 2014, 11:37 AM
- RJD
- Oct 15 2014, 11:20 AM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I am with you on this RJD. Despite improvements in the economy and employment in recent years the UK is still too fragile to withstand another Labour dominated administration, especially one so anti-business, anti-wealth creators, anti-middleclass and led by the two Eds. In this case two Eds are not better than one!!!
I am constantly surprised by the total disinterest the left has with job creation, they appear totally fixated on what can be taken on not on what can be created.
The only error laden fixation I keep coming across is this ridiculous notion that the Labour Party are "anti-business", and are "totally disinterested with job creation". What a wonderful technique it is to first produce a completely false description, and to then ridicule those wrongly identified for being callously maligned. In that case, to quote but one example, you were no doubt impressed with Milibands promise to freeze energy prices in the event Labour form the next government, irrespective of global supply prices with the result that energy companies share prices tumbled and so did the values of private sector money purchase pension funds, which is the type of pension fund most working people have, if they have one at all. An irresponsible electioneering threat like this will, and has, adversely effected UK infrastructure investment by the private sector. The man is anti-business, out of touch with commercial reality and lacking in any commercial economic judgement.
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RJD
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Oct 16 2014, 11:57 AM
Post #33
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I am with you on this RJD. Despite improvements in the economy and employment in recent years the UK is still too fragile to withstand another Labour dominated administration, especially one so anti-business, anti-wealth creators, anti-middleclass and led by the two Eds. In this case two Eds are not better than one!!!
I am constantly surprised by the total disinterest the left has with job creation, they appear totally fixated on what can be taken on not on what can be created.
The only error laden fixation I keep coming across is this ridiculous notion that the Labour Party are "anti-business", and are "totally disinterested with job creation". What a wonderful technique it is to first produce a completely false description, and to then ridicule those wrongly identified for being callously maligned. Best go tell the business community as they have the distinct impression that Labour and in particular Milliband is anti-business. Plus you could help us by giving an example of what Labour has done in the last decade or so to foster an environment that would/could/should result in growth in real jobs in our economy? I think you will have a hard time with that. Do you really believe that the absolute size of the State can be increased at the rate achieved by NL with absolutely no down side on the private sector? If you do you should be calling for even more borrowing to fuel the expansion of our civil service.
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C-too
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Oct 16 2014, 12:02 PM
Post #34
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
I am constantly surprised by the total disinterest the left has with job creation, they appear totally fixated on what can be taken on not on what can be created.
The only error laden fixation I keep coming across is this ridiculous notion that the Labour Party are "anti-business", and are "totally disinterested with job creation". What a wonderful technique it is to first produce a completely false description, and to then ridicule those wrongly identified for being callously maligned.
In that case, to quote but one example, you were no doubt impressed with Milibands promise to freeze energy prices in the event Labour form the next government, irrespective of global supply prices with the result that energy companies share prices tumbled and so did the values of private sector money purchase pension funds, which is the type of pension fund most working people have, if they have one at all. An irresponsible electioneering threat like this will, and has, adversely effected UK infrastructure investment by the private sector. The man is anti-business, out of touch with commercial reality and lacking in any commercial economic judgement. Share prices recovered quite quickly.
I don't think Miliband ever said he would freeze prices regardless of what the situation was after/if he won the election.
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Affa
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Oct 16 2014, 12:46 PM
Post #35
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
The only error laden fixation I keep coming across is this ridiculous notion that the Labour Party are "anti-business", and are "totally disinterested with job creation". What a wonderful technique it is to first produce a completely false description, and to then ridicule those wrongly identified for being callously maligned.
In that case, to quote but one example, you were no doubt impressed with Milibands promise to freeze energy prices in the event Labour form the next government, irrespective of global supply prices ........... The man is anti-business, out of touch with commercial reality and lacking in any commercial economic judgement.
I understood the policy would improve UK business efficiency - having their energy costs held in check after several years of inflated costs 'not at all reflecting the FALL in wholesale prices in that time'. I call that being business friendly. Especially when the Energy Giants pay so little tax and are not essentially British companies.
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jaguar
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Oct 16 2014, 02:15 PM
Post #36
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I don't think Miliband ever said he would freeze prices regardless of what the situation was after/if he won the election.
Are you for real,
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Ed Miliband tells his party conference Labour will freeze energy prices if they get into power.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24213366
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Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, will try and broaded support for a 20-month energy price freeze.
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ed Miliband
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C-too
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Oct 16 2014, 02:45 PM
Post #37
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I don't think Miliband ever said he would freeze prices regardless of what the situation was after/if he won the election.
Are you for real, - Quote:
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Ed Miliband tells his party conference Labour will freeze energy prices if they get into power. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24213366- Quote:
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Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, will try and broaded support for a 20-month energy price freeze. www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ed Miliband Your site addresses don't work, perhaps because of the blue colouration.
I never denied that Miliband said he would freeze prices!!
I posted that he never said he would freeze prices ---- REGARDLESS ---- of the situation that existed after and if he won the election. Such a promise would make no sense and there is no way the Tory media would have missed that.
I think anyone who is "for real" would have understood that.
Edited by C-too, Oct 16 2014, 02:48 PM.
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Deleted User
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Oct 17 2014, 12:02 PM
Post #38
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Deleted User
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
In that case, to quote but one example, you were no doubt impressed with Milibands promise to freeze energy prices in the event Labour form the next government, irrespective of global supply prices ........... The man is anti-business, out of touch with commercial reality and lacking in any commercial economic judgement.
I understood the policy would improve UK business efficiency - having their energy costs held in check after several years of inflated costs 'not at all reflecting the FALL in wholesale prices in that time'. I call that being business friendly. Especially when the Energy Giants pay so little tax and are not essentially British companies.
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Deleted User
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Oct 17 2014, 12:15 PM
Post #39
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Deleted User
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- Major Sinic
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- Affa
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Quoting limited to 4 levels deepglobal supply prices ........... The man is anti-business, out of touch with commercial reality and lacking in any commercial economic judgement.
I understood the policy would improve UK business efficiency - having their energy costs held in check after several years of inflated costs 'not at all reflecting the FALL in wholesale prices in that time'. I call that being business friendly. Especially when the Energy Giants pay so little tax and are not essentially British companies.
What you fail to realise is that recent drops in wholesale prices have not been passed on in full to end users as a direct result of Milibands irresponsible and naive electioneering promise. No business in its right mind is to going to reduce the price platform at which its prices are going to subsequently be frozen. In essence prices are higher today than they would otherwise have been if Miliband had kept his mouth shut. The fool damaged the energy industry, inward and internal investment, job expansion opportunities, pension fund values and will end up freezing prices which are higher than they would otherwise have been. One can only hope that as the likelihood of an outright Labour victory in the GE fades more each day, along with its its accompanying anti-business and anti-wealth creation policies the energy industry will review its pricing and investment policies. Please justify your throw away line that the energy giants pay so little tax. For instance Centrica, a British FTSE 100 company, paid £664m in 2012/13 in corporate and oil revenue taxes, equivalent to 44% of pre-tax profit. In addition they collected on behalf of government a further £949 million in VAT etc. Incidentally they provide over 17,000 UK jobs. C-too please provide evidence that Miliband did not promise an energy price freeze regardless of global wholesale prices. I think you are wrong. I canfind no such caveat.
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RJD
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Oct 17 2014, 12:16 PM
Post #40
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Had those prices been frozen at the time that Milli made his demand then we would not have enjoyed the effect of recent raw material cost reductions. Spot prices for oil and gas are down. Whether Milliband is anti business is not the point, he has demonstrated that he does not understand it. If he did he would not have made such untutored populist statements. He did so just for votes without any consideration of the effects, this is not the action of a future PM more like a Covent Garden Barrow-boy.
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