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Should mentally retarded people be allowed to become MP's or be allowed to sit in the Lords?
Topic Started: Oct 15 2014, 07:20 PM (475 Views)
Tigger
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This is not to do with lacklustre performance or anything to do with not very bright over privileged people talking out of their backsides but an attempt to put these disadvantaged people back at the heart of society, instead of an MP getting an annual salary of £67,060 how about £2 an hour instead?
Assorted Lords could also be employed as office clerks and factory cleaners so we can make poor taste jokes about them behind their backs.

Don't shoot the messenger chaps we are talking primarily economics here!
Edited by Tigger, Oct 15 2014, 07:22 PM.
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Marconi
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That is harsh. It should be NMW 6.50 an hour. Let's not break the law!
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Tigger
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Marconi
Oct 15 2014, 07:24 PM
That is harsh. It should be NMW 6.50 an hour. Let's not break the law!
Well to be honest they are not worth NMW, I'd suggest topping up the £2 and hour with a taxpayer subsidy of say £110,000?
Edited by Tigger, Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM.
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Lewis
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Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
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papasmurf
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Should mentally retarded people be allowed to become MP's or allowed to sit in the Lords?

They already are. The Lords voted yesterday to allow this:-

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/text/141014-gc0001.htm

95ZBF: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause—

“Further provision about the right of use

(1) The ways in which the right of use may be exercised include

(a) drilling, boring, fracturing or otherwise altering deep- level land;

(b) installing infrastructure in deep-level land;

(c) keeping, using or removing any infrastructure installed in deep-level land;

(d) passing any substance through, or putting any substance into, deep-level land or infrastructure installed in deep- level land;

(e) keeping, using or removing any substance put into deep-level land or into infrastructure installed in deep-level land.


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Steve K
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I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
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Tigger
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Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Lord Elgin of Cornwall?
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Really? How many people do you think are going to be happy with fracking companies being allowed BY LAW to pump ANY substance under their home?
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 15 2014, 07:55 PM
Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Really? How many people do you think are going to be happy with fracking companies being allowed BY LAW to pump ANY substance under their home?
so you admit you were thread stealing again

and thought you wouldn't get spotted  ::)

he's back Posted Image
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RoofGardener
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The house of Lords - over history - is littered with people who would be considered mentally disturbed by modern day standards.

I'll try and look some of them up.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:59 PM
so you admit you were thread stealing again


I am doing no such thing, I was proving my contention.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Oct 15 2014, 08:04 PM
Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:59 PM
so you admit you were thread stealing again


I am doing no such thing, I was proving my contention.
yes of course  ::)

So in what passes for your logic if someone has an opinion you don't agree with they must be mentally retarded

Maybe the opposite is true
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 08:07 PM


So in what passes for your logic if someone has an opinion you don't agree with they must be mentally retarded

Maybe the opposite is true
No, it usually means they are a closet Nazi. History has shown such people are well educated.
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Steve K
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Well it wasn't much of a thread anyway was it
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Tigger
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Not now! ;D
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Affa
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Lewis
Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
Quote:
 
plus a few hundred more in the Lords.


760 Lords eligible to play an actively role.

Did dementia get mentioned as well?



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Tytoalba
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Affa
Oct 15 2014, 09:41 PM
Lewis
Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
Quote:
 
plus a few hundred more in the Lords.


760 Lords eligible to play an actively role.

Did dementia get mentioned as well?



This gets silly. Many in the house of Lorfds are there for their experience and contribution to society. To keep panning them beconmes childish Alternatives may be no better . On the matter of the comment made about £2 an hour

Its just another politically motivated story about a remark of little consequence and out of context about an off the cuff remark to a leading question. for party political gain It adeflects our minds from the real story of good news on inflation and improving employment and employment figures .

If giving work to occupy a person with limited intelligence or extreme disability, and who would be of little worth to an employee, yet at the same time give them something to occupy them whilst under proper and safe supervision, and improve their quality of life, giving them a sense of worth, whilst also giving a carer free time to inmprove theirs, ,even at £2 an hour for pocket money then I think he has a point of merit. Any purpose in life is better than just stagnating.
.It would encourage employers to employ more, and at the same time make a charitable contribution to the welfare of those with unfortunate conditions. who need to occupy the disabled's time more interestingly.
I expect brickbats for saying so, but they may not be worth even the minimum wage to a buisiness,. or even the £2 an hour .
Hard Yes reality Yes.

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 10:26 AM

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
Looking at Lord Freud's history of making such ill informed offensive remarks in the round he should never have been given his current government job in the first place.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Oct 15 2014, 07:55 PM
Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Really? How many people do you think are going to be happy with fracking companies being allowed BY LAW to pump ANY substance under their home?
But not without regulation and control. The UK Laws do not confer ownership of surface land to mean ownership of substrata through to the core. The truth is that the shale, the gas, is locked in at levels significantly lower than those of water tables etc. and most of the geological problems that could ensue have been resolved and contained. This is all about sensible regulation and control. That said I am in favour of the Lion's share if not all of licences and taxes on production retained locally.
This industry could be a boon for wealth and jobs, particularly in many regions desperate for such. However, the Luddites already have their flags and lorry loads of shrouds out and ready to fight for whatever?
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jaguar
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Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 10:26 AM
If giving work to occupy a person with limited intelligence or extreme disability, and who would be of little worth to an employee, yet at the same time give them something to occupy them whilst under proper and safe supervision, and improve their quality of life, giving them a sense of worth, whilst also giving a carer free time to inmprove theirs, ,even at £2 an hour for pocket money then I think he has a point of merit. Any purpose in life is better than just stagnating.
.It would encourage employers to employ more, and at the same time make a charitable contribution to the welfare of those with unfortunate conditions. who need to occupy the disabled's time more interestingly.
I expect brickbats for saying so, but they may not be worth even the minimum wage to a buisiness,. or even the £2 an hour .
Hard Yes reality Yes.

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
A good post and very true.

That's why there are so many volunteers in the UK.

9 percentage-point increase in regular volunteering,
84% of people are satisfied with their local area,
Nearly half of people want to be involved in local decision making,
More people report a very strong sense of belonging to Britain.

The survey also reveals:

People are still giving generously to charity, with 74% making donations in 2012, compared with 72% in 2010
55% reported a very strong sense of belonging to Britain, an increase from 51% in 2010
a strong sense of community spirit, with 79% of people reporting they belong strongly to their neighbourhood
87% of people report that their local area is one where people from different backgrounds get along well together
nearly half of people want to be more involved in local decisions, a significant increase from 2010

First published:12 February 2013. Part of:Promoting social action: encouraging and enabling people to play a more active part in society and Community and society



Edited by jaguar, Oct 16 2014, 11:10 AM.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Oct 16 2014, 10:50 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 10:26 AM

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
Looking at Lord Freud's history of making such ill informed offensive remarks in the round he should never have been given his current government job in the first place.
He does seem to suffer from a loose lip, but I also think he was set up for this and the snakes used this to whip up a storm. They sat on it for 2 weeks. Why?
It will be yesterdays news in a few days as the man is an unknown entity, but Millibands is not.
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Oct 16 2014, 10:50 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 10:26 AM

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
Looking at Lord Freud's history of making such ill informed offensive remarks in the round he should never have been given his current government job in the first place.
He was apparently put in place by the Labour party. Now does that alter your opinion?
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marybrown
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Affa
Oct 15 2014, 09:41 PM
Lewis
Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
Quote:
 
plus a few hundred more in the Lords.


760 Lords eligible to play an actively role.

Did dementia get mentioned as well?



When I lived in France, the house of Lords frequently appeared on comedy shows...clips of them asleep and snoring.. !(0)!
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Alberich
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Poor old Ed had his moment in the House, but he clearly had not done any research into the circumstances, or the context of the comments he was criticising. Still, when did anyone expect sense from the Millipede? Lord Freud was asked during a fringe meeting at the Conservative conference last month whether it was preferable for an unemployed disabled person to be paid less than the minimum wage - and to have their income topped up with benefits - in order to get them into a workplace and boost their self-esteem. In answer, the minister said there was no system for going below the minimum wage. He added......" really useful for people with the fluctuating conditions who can do some work - go up and down - because they can earn and get... and get, you know, bolstered through universal credit, and they can move that amount up and down. Now, there is a small... there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they're not worth the full wage and actually I'm going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it's working can we actually...

Now as a logical and considered answer to a difficult question, this was not Churchillian prose. His answer was clumsy,and his choice of wotrds abysmal. But his premise is not so outlandish as some would have us believe. What is so wrong with offering some social intercourse with those unfortunate disabled persons who are not really in a position to do gainful work, but who would like the chance to relate to the outside world of employment? He DID say that there was no mechanism for paying below the minimum wage, and that the government might consider topping up any discrepancy with benefits. It was a genuine, off the cuff comment made with good intentions, about a real problem that exists.

Pity Milliband hadn't the nous to realise than in his rush to make political capital. And I DO agree. Freud's choice of words was not very prudent.
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Stan Still
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Tigger
Oct 15 2014, 07:54 PM
Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Lord Elgin of Cornwall?
!jk! give him back to Greece this instant you bounder
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papasmurf
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marybrown
Oct 16 2014, 05:54 PM
When I lived in France, the house of Lords frequently appeared on comedy shows...clips of them asleep and snoring.. !(0)!
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 05:50 PM
papasmurf
Oct 16 2014, 10:50 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 16 2014, 10:26 AM

I believe in the term hard love for the better outcome.
In amy ways it was a humane remark IMO if looed at in the round.
Looking at Lord Freud's history of making such ill informed offensive remarks in the round he should never have been given his current government job in the first place.
He was apparently put in place by the Labour party. Now does that alter your opinion?
He's a former banker so therefore unbelievably talented and thus attractive to all politicians.

That should cover all bases.
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papasmurf
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Tigger
Oct 16 2014, 08:41 PM
He's a former banker so therefore unbelievably talented
Really?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7891213.stm

In 1983 he was headhunted by the firm Rowe & Pitman, which would change its name eight times during the 20 years he worked there.

His first job - writing research on companies from whom he was also soliciting money for advice - would be illegal today, and he told the Guardian in 2006 that the experience made him want to run a "very ethical sector".



I had successfully sold the market a pup



Sir David Freud on Eurotunnel


Instead he moved into advising companies, and was involved in piecing together extremely complex deals such as the flotations of Eurotunnel and EuroDisney, which cost investors millions, and the financing of the Channel Tunnel rail link.

All earned him a great deal of publicity, as well as criticism.

Eurotunnel opened in May 1994 one year behind schedule and £2bn ($2.9bn) over budget.

Sir David later admitted the deal was a "shambles" and that he had "successfully sold the market a pup".
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johnofgwent
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Affa
Oct 15 2014, 09:41 PM
Lewis
Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
Quote:
 
plus a few hundred more in the Lords.


760 Lords eligible to play an actively role.

Did dementia get mentioned as well?



given the age of some of the squatters in "the other place", it should have been ...
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johnofgwent
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Stan Still
Oct 16 2014, 06:37 PM
Tigger
Oct 15 2014, 07:54 PM
Steve K
Oct 15 2014, 07:43 PM
I suggest that ^ rather shows it is you PS that has a marble too few
Lord Elgin of Cornwall?
!jk! give him back to Greece this instant you bounder
I really want to say !clp! !clp! !clp!

I suppose I ought to add one of these !nono! as well

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Heinrich
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marybrown
Oct 16 2014, 05:54 PM
Affa
Oct 15 2014, 09:41 PM
Lewis
Oct 15 2014, 07:27 PM
Well there are 650 retards in the HOC, plus a few hundred more in the Lords. From what I see of it maybe some of the disabled that Lord Fraud wants to be paid £2 an hour could do a far better job then this dross.
Quote:
 
plus a few hundred more in the Lords.


760 Lords eligible to play an actively role.

Did dementia get mentioned as well?



When I lived in France, the house of Lords frequently appeared on comedy shows...clips of them asleep and snoring.. !(0)!
So much the better. They cannot do any harm asleep.
Edited by Heinrich, Oct 17 2014, 02:01 AM.
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RoofGardener
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... and just a brief sojourne into the world of whimsy.

Enter the Marquis of Titchfield (William John Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck) as fifth Duke, via a trapdoor in the floor !
Born in 1800, he succeeded to the Dukeship in 1854, and proceeded to honeycombe the stately home at Welbeck with a maze of tunnels, allowing him to wander around his home - and his estates - without anyone seeing him. This network - along with large underground structures (including a full-size ballroom) - was vast and extensive. Some tunnels went for miles, and where wide enough to drive a horse and carriage through. One modern commentator suggested "it was as though he had anticipated Nuclear Warfare and Civil Defence".

He sat in the House of Lords and - when travelling to London - did so via his tunnels (to the railways station), then in a sealed railway carriage (and in sealed horse carriage) so that nobody could see him. He delivered instructions to his servants via notes pushed through a special internal letterbox. His private rooms incorporated trapdoors to allow him to access his tunnel network. Nobody could every be sure exactly where he was at any given moment in time.

He painted all of the rooms in his house pink. Upon his death, the executors of his will found one room stocked floor to ceiling with boxes, each of which contained a single brown wig.

Now THATS the sort of person we need more of in the House of Lords. Nutty as a fruitcake !

There is a history website with a short article on the Duke of Portland , and it WELL worth a read.
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Tytoalba
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Alberich
Oct 16 2014, 05:55 PM
Poor old Ed had his moment in the House, but he clearly had not done any research into the circumstances, or the context of the comments he was criticising. Still, when did anyone expect sense from the Millipede? Lord Freud was asked during a fringe meeting at the Conservative conference last month whether it was preferable for an unemployed disabled person to be paid less than the minimum wage - and to have their income topped up with benefits - in order to get them into a workplace and boost their self-esteem. In answer, the minister said there was no system for going below the minimum wage. He added......" really useful for people with the fluctuating conditions who can do some work - go up and down - because they can earn and get... and get, you know, bolstered through universal credit, and they can move that amount up and down. Now, there is a small... there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they're not worth the full wage and actually I'm going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it's working can we actually...

Now as a logical and considered answer to a difficult question, this was not Churchillian prose. His answer was clumsy,and his choice of wotrds abysmal. But his premise is not so outlandish as some would have us believe. What is so wrong with offering some social intercourse with those unfortunate disabled persons who are not really in a position to do gainful work, but who would like the chance to relate to the outside world of employment? He DID say that there was no mechanism for paying below the minimum wage, and that the government might consider topping up any discrepancy with benefits. It was a genuine, off the cuff comment made with good intentions, about a real problem that exists.

Pity Milliband hadn't the nous to realise than in his rush to make political capital. And I DO agree. Freud's choice of words was not very prudent.
Many disabled people are collected daily and taken to special need centres, where they are given tasks to occupy and entertain them, and enable them to interact with people for which they get paid nothing
Is it not preferable that they are taken to a workplace peopled by working people from the comunity properly supervised and supported,, be paid £2 an hour or more according to their ability, for their often limited contribution, than nothing at all?
I went into McDonalds yesterday and spoke to the cleaning manager about it, and she told me that they do employ a young man with learnng disabilities, who makes only a limited contribution, refuses to do anything other than the basics, but gets the minimum wage with incriments like all the others. I haveinteracted with him, and he is friendly, but is hard work to taklk to.,
I think the only outcome to that sort of demnd is less places offered to the less able, so iis self defeating.
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Tytoalba
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RoofGardener
Oct 17 2014, 09:45 AM
... and just a brief sojourne into the world of whimsy.

Enter the Marquis of Titchfield (William John Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck) as fifth Duke, via a trapdoor in the floor !
Born in 1800, he succeeded to the Dukeship in 1854, and proceeded to honeycombe the stately home at Welbeck with a maze of tunnels, allowing him to wander around his home - and his estates - without anyone seeing him. This network - along with large underground structures (including a full-size ballroom) - was vast and extensive. Some tunnels went for miles, and where wide enough to drive a horse and carriage through. One modern commentator suggested "it was as though he had anticipated Nuclear Warfare and Civil Defence".

He sat in the House of Lords and - when travelling to London - did so via his tunnels (to the railways station), then in a sealed railway carriage (and in sealed horse carriage) so that nobody could see him. He delivered instructions to his servants via notes pushed through a special internal letterbox. His private rooms incorporated trapdoors to allow him to access his tunnel network. Nobody could every be sure exactly where he was at any given moment in time.

He painted all of the rooms in his house pink. Upon his death, the executors of his will found one room stocked floor to ceiling with boxes, each of which contained a single brown wig.

Now THATS the sort of person we need more of in the House of Lords. Nutty as a fruitcake !

There is a history website with a short article on the Duke of Portland , and it WELL worth a read.
Just think of the employment he gave to the miners.
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marybrown
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Tytoalba
Oct 17 2014, 10:07 AM
Alberich
Oct 16 2014, 05:55 PM
Poor old Ed had his moment in the House, but he clearly had not done any research into the circumstances, or the context of the comments he was criticising. Still, when did anyone expect sense from the Millipede? Lord Freud was asked during a fringe meeting at the Conservative conference last month whether it was preferable for an unemployed disabled person to be paid less than the minimum wage - and to have their income topped up with benefits - in order to get them into a workplace and boost their self-esteem. In answer, the minister said there was no system for going below the minimum wage. He added......" really useful for people with the fluctuating conditions who can do some work - go up and down - because they can earn and get... and get, you know, bolstered through universal credit, and they can move that amount up and down. Now, there is a small... there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they're not worth the full wage and actually I'm going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it's working can we actually...

Now as a logical and considered answer to a difficult question, this was not Churchillian prose. His answer was clumsy,and his choice of wotrds abysmal. But his premise is not so outlandish as some would have us believe. What is so wrong with offering some social intercourse with those unfortunate disabled persons who are not really in a position to do gainful work, but who would like the chance to relate to the outside world of employment? He DID say that there was no mechanism for paying below the minimum wage, and that the government might consider topping up any discrepancy with benefits. It was a genuine, off the cuff comment made with good intentions, about a real problem that exists.

Pity Milliband hadn't the nous to realise than in his rush to make political capital. And I DO agree. Freud's choice of words was not very prudent.
Many disabled people are collected daily and taken to special need centres, where they are given tasks to occupy and entertain them, and enable them to interact with people for which they get paid nothing
Is it not preferable that they are taken to a workplace peopled by working people from the comunity properly supervised and supported,, be paid £2 an hour or more according to their ability, for their often limited contribution, than nothing at all?
I went into McDonalds yesterday and spoke to the cleaning manager about it, and she told me that they do employ a young man with learnng disabilities, who makes only a limited contribution, refuses to do anything other than the basics, but gets the minimum wage with incriments like all the others. I haveinteracted with him, and he is friendly, but is hard work to taklk to.,
I think the only outcome to that sort of demnd is less places offered to the less able, so iis self defeating.
My ex-firms experiences of employing mentally handicapped people was a nightmare..They were vetted..one had ADHD..another was Epileptic...one had OCD..and the other one just had behavioural problems...

They were given a job, packing sausages...working with quite motherly middle aged ladies..

They did nothing..walking around throwing tantrums..laughing...taking the piss..skiving...

Probably only worked 3 days out of 5 as they appeared to be ill quite a lot..

One of them came out of the men's toilets announcing that he had sh*t himself and needed to go home immediately.

We didn't see him for 6 weeks..

They caused trouble from the time they started to when they all drifted away.. apparently preferring to live on benefits...

They weren't seriously mentally handicapped...when they were asked to work by the supervisor..they would laugh in his face!
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papasmurf
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My ex-firms experiences of employing mentally handicapped people was a nightmare..They were vetted..one had ADHD..another was Epileptic...one had OCD..and the other one just had behavioural problems...

[/quote]None of those are mental handicaps, they are mental heath issues. The current furore is about the employment of mentally handicapped people NOT about employing people with mental health issues.
Edited by papasmurf, Oct 18 2014, 04:32 PM.
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marybrown
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 04:10 PM
marybrown
Oct 18 2014, 04:02 PM

I think the only outcome to that sort of demnd is less places offered to the less able, so iis self defeating.
My ex-firms experiences of employing mentally handicapped people was a nightmare..They were vetted..one had ADHD..another was Epileptic...one had OCD..and the other one just had behavioural problems...

None of those are mental handicaps, they are mental heath issues. The current furore is about the employment of mentally handicapped people NOT about employing people with mental health issues.[/quote]Maybe so...I wouldn't have given these Jackasses a quid an hour..never mind two..

Is it because Freud proposed work for them..and how ''mentally handicapped'' do you want to go?..

Do you think people would want to work with a paranoid schizophrenic for instance?..

Or is it the indignance that these people may be taken to a workplace?
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papasmurf
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marybrown
Oct 18 2014, 04:23 PM
paranoid schizophrenic for instance?..

That is a mental health problem NOT a mental handicap.
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marybrown
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papasmurf
Oct 18 2014, 04:31 PM
marybrown
Oct 18 2014, 04:23 PM
paranoid schizophrenic for instance?..

That is a mental health problem NOT a mental handicap.
So are we just going with ''mentally disabled?''

Where is the line?

Someone who shits his pants in order to go home?

Or someone that may hear God commanding him to slit your throat?
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marybrown
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Do you mean congenital mental Issues?

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