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£1,7 surcharge just the 1st installment; Barosso vereus Cameron
Topic Started: Oct 26 2014, 04:52 PM (764 Views)
Boxter
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11185604/Both-the-EU-and-Cameron-must-come-clean-about-the-origins-of-this-outrageous-bill.html

The Cameron jibe against UKIP is that if you vote for us you get Labour. Is the only reason to vote for Camerons useless lot because they are slightly less abnoxious than the Labour party GREAT ENDORSEMENT THAT

The sad truth is whether you vote CONSERVATIVE LABOUR OR LIB DEM YOU IN FACT GET SOMEONE CALLED MANUEL BAROSSO who currently demands AND WILL GET a £1.7 billion super stealth tax from his menial mr Cameron and laugh all the way to the Bundesbank when our glorious leader blusters he wont pay up (ON THE 1st DECEMBER AT LEAST) then tells the BBC he didn't rule out paying at a later date anyway!

Barosso is laughing because he states that for every day Cameron refuses to stump up he will penalise the UK taxpayer by a further £47 million per day he dosent get his 1.7 billion blood money paid on time.

That's not the end of the sorry saga however as the same bean counters who drempt this one up are already penciling in a further British Billion raid for next year. I wonder are these the same bean counters who refused for the last 20 years to sign off on the EU accounts because of the massive rampant fraud

Its also weird that whilst the official UK employment figures never being as high the total income tax take by the treasury has FALLEN forcing our glorious coalition to borrow even more to make up the shortfall. Seems all the shiney new coalition jobs dont pay enough to qualify for paying any income tax!

THIS ALL BEGS THE PERTINENT QUESTION AS TO EXACTLY WHAT TAX INCREASES OR EXTRA CUTS CAMERON IS GOING TO BE FORCED BY HIS EU BOSS MR BAROSSO TO IMPOSE ON THE REST OF US TO PAY FOR THIS UNJUST BACKDOOR EU MANUEL BAROSSO TAX??

Come on Dave dont be coy we really want to know HOW YOU WILL MAKE THE REST OF US suffer for your prolonging the agony until 2017 PLUS not paying your boss Barosso on time!!

IF YOU DONT WANT TO HAVE TO PAY BAROSSO TAX PLUS EXTRA CUTS THEY WILL INDUCE THEN FORGET THE REST VOTE FOR THE BEST

VOTE UKIP
Edited by Boxter, Oct 26 2014, 05:05 PM.
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AndyK
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papasmurf
Oct 26 2014, 07:11 PM
I realise I am wasting my time but the recalculation going back to 2002 which has resulted in the £1.7 billion was carried out by the Office For National statistics, and George Osborne knew it was going to happen back in January:-

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/method-quality/specific/economy/national-accounts/articles/2011-present/inclusion-of-illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-in-the-uk-national-accounts.pdf
Yes but it was assumed that all the other countries would tell the truth in their accounts as well.

Knowing that the accounting methodology was going to change and knowing what effect that would have on the bill are two completely different things.

The bill is calculated relative to what all the other EU submitted and there was no way of knowing what it was going to be until it arrived on the doorstep.

The biggest mistake Osbourne made was assuming the French and Germans wouldn't cook the books.

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Tigger
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AndyK
Oct 28 2014, 09:22 AM
papasmurf
Oct 26 2014, 07:11 PM
I realise I am wasting my time but the recalculation going back to 2002 which has resulted in the £1.7 billion was carried out by the Office For National statistics, and George Osborne knew it was going to happen back in January:-

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/method-quality/specific/economy/national-accounts/articles/2011-present/inclusion-of-illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-in-the-uk-national-accounts.pdf
Yes but it was assumed that all the other countries would tell the truth in their accounts as well.

Knowing that the accounting methodology was going to change and knowing what effect that would have on the bill are two completely different things.

The bill is calculated relative to what all the other EU submitted and there was no way of knowing what it was going to be until it arrived on the doorstep.

The biggest mistake Osbourne made was assuming the French and Germans wouldn't cook the books.

I think you need to offer us some CREDIBLE proof that the French and Germans are cooking the books don't you? :)

You seem to be implying that the paragon of financial virtue that is Britain is being set upon by beastly foreigners again.
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AndyK
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Tigger
Oct 28 2014, 09:39 AM
AndyK
Oct 28 2014, 09:22 AM
papasmurf
Oct 26 2014, 07:11 PM
I realise I am wasting my time but the recalculation going back to 2002 which has resulted in the £1.7 billion was carried out by the Office For National statistics, and George Osborne knew it was going to happen back in January:-

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/method-quality/specific/economy/national-accounts/articles/2011-present/inclusion-of-illegal-drugs-and-prostitution-in-the-uk-national-accounts.pdf
Yes but it was assumed that all the other countries would tell the truth in their accounts as well.

Knowing that the accounting methodology was going to change and knowing what effect that would have on the bill are two completely different things.

The bill is calculated relative to what all the other EU submitted and there was no way of knowing what it was going to be until it arrived on the doorstep.

The biggest mistake Osbourne made was assuming the French and Germans wouldn't cook the books.

I think you need to offer us some CREDIBLE proof that the French and Germans are cooking the books don't you? :)

You seem to be implying that the paragon of financial virtue that is Britain is being set upon by beastly foreigners again.
The only difference between the old and the new accounting methodologies are the inclusion of additional activities R&D, charities, drugs and prostitution.

I find it really hard to believe that there is such a huge disparity between England, France and Germany regarding drugs and prostitution.

The only way this could happen is if we wrote down a higher made up figure than they did.

We should have done the same as them and put a big zero against that item.

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papasmurf
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AndyK
Oct 28 2014, 10:49 AM


We should have done the same as them and put a big zero against that item.

The Office For National Statistics provided the UK data, so Cameron should have been well aware of what was going to happen months ago.
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Steve K
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AndyK
Oct 28 2014, 10:49 AM
The only difference between the old and the new accounting methodologies are the inclusion of additional activities R&D, charities, drugs and prostitution.

I find it really hard to believe that there is such a huge disparity between England, France and Germany regarding drugs and prostitution.

The only way this could happen is if we wrote down a higher made up figure than they did.

We should have done the same as them and put a big zero against that item.

That's not the point though is it. Charities are big business in the UK - and probably Germany too.

Germany was always including these and other factors in its GNI so was paying a higher contribution. We weren't so were paying a false lower figure. So it's not the difference in level of those activities but the difference in accounting that had to be corrected. It was a bit like finding our your neighbour was paying VAT on meals out and you weren't

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29757296

Germany will in any event still be net contributing far more than the UK
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Tytoalba
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Affa
Oct 27 2014, 11:01 AM
Rich
Oct 27 2014, 12:36 AM
"Give in to lobbyists with "loads o' money", and invite corporate business to advise on all government policy."

Corporate businesses did not put Millibore into position, the unite trade union did,.........is that as good or as bad as lobbyists?

Not the demon Trade Unions again, oh dear. That war was fought thirty years ago, it's over.
But here you are, desperate for another 'scary' monster to frighten fence sitters with ...... and imagining the Unions are one but not wanting to admit for one second that Corporate business have usurped democracy.


Not over Affa, just moved undergroung prior to the next GE.
If Labour win, it will be tea and sandwhiches in Downing street again for Milliband is the Union puppet, and they will be pulling the strings.
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papasmurf
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Tytoalba
Oct 28 2014, 11:09 AM

If Labour win, it will be tea and sandwhiches in Downing street again for Milliband is the Union puppet, and they will be pulling the strings.
During 13 year in office, New Labour did precisely (expletive deleted) all for the unions, on the other hand when someone bungs a big wedge of money into Tory party coffers and asks Cameron to jump, he asks how high.
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RJD
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Steve K
Oct 27 2014, 06:57 PM
Boxter
Oct 27 2014, 02:51 PM
When you voted at the last British General election did you vote so that a Maoist Communist could come along and at the drop of a hat to take £59 each out of your bank account for every man woman and child in your house plus a £1 each for every day Mr Cameron defies him by not paying his total demand for £1.7 billion. PLUS the same Maoist Communist Manuel Barosso has promised to repeat the exercise next year already

You didn’t!! Well VOTE CONSERVATIVE LIB DEM or LABOUR PARTIES GET MAOIST COMMUNIST BANK ROBBER MANUEL BAROSSO
Stop this madness for good demand our referendum NOW and vote UKIP
But you have this all wrong - well according to UKIP you do

Just last week they were telling us our contribution was £20B a year (£55M a day) and now we find it's just £10B. So according to UKIP maths we now have a £10B rebate.

In other news will UKIP say that the UK population is less than 10 million? No wait they've done that already !jk!
I do not think the argument is based on Membership Fees/Dues, it is a lot more fundamental than that, however, it is a matter that is simply articulated and riles many. The fundamental question now is who is paramount the EU or our elected Gov. in our Parliament. The Heads of sovereign countries agreed with Cameron to reduce the EU budget. This was overturned by the MEPs and increased. Now we have a surcharge. Cameron should insist on a return to the agreed budget and then look to see if there is anything worth haggling over with the surcharge. If the EU Parliament is paramount then it really is time to dismantle Westminster and do as we are instructed.
Me I did not vote for my bit of sovereignty to be transferred to Brussels, resent that Politicians failed to ask or inform and yes I wish it to be returned. Why? Because there are no people in the whole of the EU that wish to share their sovereignty with others. We are not yet able to embrace the idea that the poor in Athens are as important to us as the poor in Cornwall. Fritz will not take on the responsibility for the social conditions of Mario. It is a sham situation.

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Steve K
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RJD
Oct 28 2014, 12:16 PM
Steve K
Oct 27 2014, 06:57 PM
Boxter
Oct 27 2014, 02:51 PM
When you voted at the last British General election did you vote so that a Maoist Communist could come along and at the drop of a hat to take £59 each out of your bank account for every man woman and child in your house plus a £1 each for every day Mr Cameron defies him by not paying his total demand for £1.7 billion. PLUS the same Maoist Communist Manuel Barosso has promised to repeat the exercise next year already

You didn’t!! Well VOTE CONSERVATIVE LIB DEM or LABOUR PARTIES GET MAOIST COMMUNIST BANK ROBBER MANUEL BAROSSO
Stop this madness for good demand our referendum NOW and vote UKIP
But you have this all wrong - well according to UKIP you do

Just last week they were telling us our contribution was £20B a year (£55M a day) and now we find it's just £10B. So according to UKIP maths we now have a £10B rebate.

In other news will UKIP say that the UK population is less than 10 million? No wait they've done that already !jk!
I do not think the argument is based on Membership Fees/Dues, it is a lot more fundamental than that, however, it is a matter that is simply articulated and riles many. The fundamental question now is who is paramount the EU or our elected Gov. in our Parliament. The Heads of sovereign countries agreed with Cameron to reduce the EU budget. This was overturned by the MEPs and increased. Now we have a surcharge. Cameron should insist on a return to the agreed budget and then look to see if there is anything worth haggling over with the surcharge. If the EU Parliament is paramount then it really is time to dismantle Westminster and do as we are instructed.
Me I did not vote for my bit of sovereignty to be transferred to Brussels, resent that Politicians failed to ask or inform and yes I wish it to be returned. Why? Because there are no people in the whole of the EU that wish to share their sovereignty with others. We are not yet able to embrace the idea that the poor in Athens are as important to us as the poor in Cornwall. Fritz will not take on the responsibility for the social conditions of Mario. It is a sham situation.

But our elected parliament is and remains paramount as we can repeal the EU enabling act any time we wish. And while they are a few areas where we default to the EU they are few in number compared to those where we have full control.

Who sets our income taxes, speed limits, sentencing for crimes, directs our armed forces, determine our school curriculars, whether we devolve areas, extent and method of NHS coverage, level of state pensions, levels of benefits etc etc etc?

We do.

You'll have to forgive me for boxing Boxter. He clearly has come here to preach what he thinks UKIP are telling him and not engage in debate so a little cutting down to size seems in order



PS off topic but you really should read that PM I sent you, may amuse.
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Alberich
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The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. And it would not be costing us an arm and a leg each and every year either. We could do business with any member state as members of this common market. And to do business with Europe, we do NOT need a High Commissioner for Foreign affairs, a European parliament, a common flag, a national anthem, moves towards a common military force, unelected high Poohbars lording it over us, and the constant salami slicing of national powers that will eventually lead to member states being just that; members of a United Statews of Europe, run from Brusels......and the commissioners! We have already lost control of our borders. E.U.law must take precedence over UK law.

And if the Euro is to survive, this can only be done in the long run by a complete fiscal union, and centralised control over budgets, and in the long run, welfare, taxation, and all else. It stands to reason when you think it through. There can be no other conclusion. Now if you want that; to be a minor offshore adjunct to the greater European state, then say so. But stop pretending that we HAVE to go along with this grand design, or lose out. We don't....and we won't!
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RJD
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Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. And it would not be costing us an arm and a leg each and every year either. We could do business with any member state as members of this common market. And to do business with Europe, we do NOT need a High Commissioner for Foreign affairs, a European parliament, a common flag, a national anthem, moves towards a common military force, unelected high Poohbars lording it over us, and the constant salami slicing of national powers that will eventually lead to member states being just that; members of a United Statews of Europe, run from Brusels......and the commissioners! We have already lost control of our borders. E.U.law must take precedence over UK law.

And if the Euro is to survive, this can only be done in the long run by a complete fiscal union, and centralised control over budgets, and in the long run, welfare, taxation, and all else. It stands to reason when you think it through. There can be no other conclusion. Now if you want that; to be a minor offshore adjunct to the greater European state, then say so. But stop pretending that we HAVE to go along with this grand design, or lose out. We don't....and we won't!
In a recent analysis, linked here by me, the Germans gain the most from EU membership and the Brits the least. This is nothing to do with cost of membership. The result of this analysis shows the dependency of nations on membership to the EU and for the UK that is the smallest of all as a consequence the fear factor drum banged by the likes of Tig., is more in his head than in an likely reality. That said I am against anything that hurts business, particularly export business, but there is a cost level which for me is not acceptable and that is the loss of our control over our own borders. If the EU does not concede that our Parliament has paramount responsibility and authority over who can and cannot come here, for whatever reason, then I would in the interest of future generations vote to leave the EU. For me the upside far outweighs the downside.
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Affa
Oct 27 2014, 11:01 AM
Rich
Oct 27 2014, 12:36 AM
"Give in to lobbyists with "loads o' money", and invite corporate business to advise on all government policy."

Corporate businesses did not put Millibore into position, the unite trade union did,.........is that as good or as bad as lobbyists?

Not the demon Trade Unions again, oh dear. That war was fought thirty years ago, it's over.
But here you are, desperate for another 'scary' monster to frighten fence sitters with ...... and imagining the Unions are one but not wanting to admit for one second that Corporate business have usurped democracy.


You are quite happy to invoke your own 'scarey' monsters to frighten electoral fence sitters with, whether it be those greedy bankers or amoral big corporate enterprises. That you, by implication, consider the Unite union to be any less motivated by self-interest than any corporation says a great deal about your lack of objectivity.
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Steve K
Oct 28 2014, 01:19 PM
RJD
Oct 28 2014, 12:16 PM
Steve K
Oct 27 2014, 06:57 PM
Boxter
Oct 27 2014, 02:51 PM
When you voted at the last British General election did you vote so that a Maoist Communist could come along and at the drop of a hat to take £59 each out of your bank account for every man woman and child in your house plus a £1 each for every day Mr Cameron defies him by not paying his total demand for £1.7 billion. PLUS the same Maoist Communist Manuel Barosso has promised to repeat the exercise next year already

You didn’t!! Well VOTE CONSERVATIVE LIB DEM or LABOUR PARTIES GET MAOIST COMMUNIST BANK ROBBER MANUEL BAROSSO
Stop this madness for good demand our referendum NOW and vote UKIP
But you have this all wrong - well according to UKIP you do

Just last week they were telling us our contribution was £20B a year (£55M a day) and now we find it's just £10B. So according to UKIP maths we now have a £10B rebate.

In other news will UKIP say that the UK population is less than 10 million? No wait they've done that already !jk!
I do not think the argument is based on Membership Fees/Dues, it is a lot more fundamental than that, however, it is a matter that is simply articulated and riles many. The fundamental question now is who is paramount the EU or our elected Gov. in our Parliament. The Heads of sovereign countries agreed with Cameron to reduce the EU budget. This was overturned by the MEPs and increased. Now we have a surcharge. Cameron should insist on a return to the agreed budget and then look to see if there is anything worth haggling over with the surcharge. If the EU Parliament is paramount then it really is time to dismantle Westminster and do as we are instructed.
Me I did not vote for my bit of sovereignty to be transferred to Brussels, resent that Politicians failed to ask or inform and yes I wish it to be returned. Why? Because there are no people in the whole of the EU that wish to share their sovereignty with others. We are not yet able to embrace the idea that the poor in Athens are as important to us as the poor in Cornwall. Fritz will not take on the responsibility for the social conditions of Mario. It is a sham situation.

But our elected parliament is and remains paramount as we can repeal the EU enabling act any time we wish. And while they are a few areas where we default to the EU they are few in number compared to those where we have full control.

Who sets our income taxes, speed limits, sentencing for crimes, directs our armed forces, determine our school curriculars, whether we devolve areas, extent and method of NHS coverage, level of state pensions, levels of benefits etc etc etc?

We do.

You'll have to forgive me for boxing Boxter. He clearly has come here to preach what he thinks UKIP are telling him and not engage in debate so a little cutting down to size seems in order



PS off topic but you really should read that PM I sent you, may amuse.
I have always considered bigots who do nothing other than preach their own gospel without even a token attempt to engage with others who may have slightly or substantially different views 'trolls'. The thing with trolls is that their feed on any form of recognition. Starve them of this and they soon wither away.
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Steve K
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Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. . . .

Well let's stop there

Every household in the UK was clearly told it was far more than a Common Market beore the 1975 referendum, if you didn't read the pamphlet that was your or your parents choice but please stop spreading the untruth that the country wasn't told.

And while as you say we might well be better off in a pure Common Market with no wider obligations there never was one on offer to us, there isn't one now and there likely will never be. There is a price for free trading to the rest of the EU. Bit like a restaurant really, everything on the menu has a price and if you don't like the prices leave. But remember you might go hungry.

Edited by Steve K, Oct 28 2014, 03:46 PM.
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Alberich
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Alberich
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Steve K
Oct 28 2014, 03:44 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. . . .

Well let's stop there

Every household in the UK was clearly told it was far more than a Common Market beore the 1975 referendum, if you didn't read the pamphlet that was your or your parents choice but please stop spreading the untruth that the country wasn't told.

And while as you say we might well be better off in a pure Common Market with no wider obligations there never was one on offer to us, there isn't one now and there likely will never be. There is a price for free trading to the rest of the EU. Bit like a restaurant really, everything on the menu has a price and if you don't like the prices leave. But remember you might go hungry.

Yes. By all means let's stop there! I will print for you the actual wording on the 1975 referendum voting form. It read "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?" Heath was banging on about it being a common market throughout the campaign, and it was "sold" to the sheeples on that basis. Why do you think they thought it necessary to include in parenthesis the words "common market? We were NOT told the truth. In fact, the whole campaign was based on a deliberate lie...that it was nothing more than a free trade area.
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RJD
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Quote:
 
Membership of such groupings imposes both rights and duties, but has not deprived us of our national identity, or changed our way of life.


Quote:
 
Membership of the Common Market also imposes new rights and duties on Britain, but does not deprive us of our national identity. To say that membership could force Britain to eat Euro-bread or drink Euro-beer is nonsense.


Quote:
 
It is the Council of Ministers, and not the market's officials, who take the important decisions. These decisions can be taken only if all the members of the Council agree. The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests. Ministers from the other Governments have the same right to veto.


Quote:
 
Remember: All the other countries in the Market today enjoy, like us, democratically elected Governments answerable to their own Parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."



It is disingenuous to claim that those of us read that pamphlet prior to voting "stay in" The Common Market had fair warning that the real agenda was for a United States of Europe. The pamphlet was designed to give exactly the opposite impression meaning that our independent sovereignty as a nation State was not at risk and there were safe guards to ensure such. The only clear warning we had was from the Oracle Enoch Powell who claimed that our sovereignty was at risk and that we were on a slippery road to where most of us did not want to go.
It is also disingenuous to claim that it is necessary to share sovereignty with other countries in order to establish good trade arrangements. That is palpably untrue. There is absolutely no reason why the EU could not become a "for trade only" organisation and it might help the citizens of the EU if they focussed more on this rather than seeking to centralise political powers.

The only claim that has any credibility is that our Politicians signed up subsequently to EU Treaties that they knew would allow the EU to move from a Trading Block to a political one and what we are now seeing is the rearguard actions attempting to reel in some of the crass mistakes. There is no doubt in my mind that the starting point was in Holland and the nail finally driven home in Portugal, since then the EU has sought to flex it's political muscles and today seeks to dictate. It really is time to test whether or not our Parliament is sovereign or not.


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Alberich
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AND the referendum pamphlet you espouse is little more than a plea to vote "yes" for entry into a common market. In fact, it promises that there would be no loss of sovereignty, and Joe Bloggs,on reading it, would come to the conclusion that it would make sense to vote for membership to bolster our trading links with Europe. He had no ideas (and certainly would not have gained that impression from the pamphlet) that he was in effect signing away our sovereignty, and our right to self govern as an independent nation.

The whole thing was a con trick. You should get your facts right.
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Steve K
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Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 04:20 PM
AND the referendum pamphlet you espouse is little more than a plea to vote "yes" for entry into a common market. In fact, it promises that there would be no loss of sovereignty, and Joe Bloggs,on reading it, would come to the conclusion that it would make sense to vote for membership to bolster our trading links with Europe. He had no ideas (and certainly would not have gained that impression from the pamphlet) that he was in effect signing away our sovereignty, and our right to self govern as an independent nation.

The whole thing was a con trick. You should get your facts right.
perhaps you need some help "to get your facts right"

from the very pamphlet (my highlighting):

Quote:
 
That is why we are asking you to vote in favour of remaining in the Community.

I ask you again to read and discuss this pamphlet.

Above all, I ask you to use your vote.

For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict.


Quote:
 
The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.


For those that could and can be bothered to read, it was clear it was more than a common market they were asked to consider before going into the polling stations. Now you may have wished to have the whole pamphlet or even European treaty printed on the ballot form but everyone else knows that's ridiculous. Everyone was properly informed, some chose to ignore it and many seem to have decided to try to adjust history.

If you do actually have the power to change history can you arrange for England to win the last World Cup.

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Alberich
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No where does it even mention the hidden agenda. Nowhere does it mention the intended supremacy of E.U. law. You really are having difficulty in understanding what you purport to support your misguided opinion. I would stop now. the words "hole" and "dig" come to mind.
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RJD
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Steve K
Oct 28 2014, 04:38 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 04:20 PM
AND the referendum pamphlet you espouse is little more than a plea to vote "yes" for entry into a common market. In fact, it promises that there would be no loss of sovereignty, and Joe Bloggs,on reading it, would come to the conclusion that it would make sense to vote for membership to bolster our trading links with Europe. He had no ideas (and certainly would not have gained that impression from the pamphlet) that he was in effect signing away our sovereignty, and our right to self govern as an independent nation.

The whole thing was a con trick. You should get your facts right.
perhaps you need some help "to get your facts right"

from the very pamphlet (my highlighting):

Quote:
 
That is why we are asking you to vote in favour of remaining in the Community.

I ask you again to read and discuss this pamphlet.

Above all, I ask you to use your vote.

For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict.


Quote:
 
The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.


For those that could and can be bothered to read, it was clear it was more than a common market they were asked to consider before going into the polling stations. Now you may have wished to have the whole pamphlet or even European treaty printed on the ballot form but everyone else knows that's ridiculous. Everyone was properly informed, some chose to ignore it and many seem to have decided to try to adjust history.

If you do actually have the power to change history can you arrange for England to win the last World Cup.

Sorry but I have no idea how you concocted your claims from the words provided in that pamphlet. There is not one word, not one sentence that can be construed even by the most fertile of imaginations into forming the opinion that this pamphlet acknowledged and supported the programme for a formation of a federal political structure for Europe.
Bringing people together in Europe can mean just about anything. Remember the words were written by Politicians. The pamphlet actually does more to try and dispel the thought that we might be losing sovereignty.
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Tigger
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Tytoalba
Oct 28 2014, 11:09 AM
Affa
Oct 27 2014, 11:01 AM
Rich
Oct 27 2014, 12:36 AM
"Give in to lobbyists with "loads o' money", and invite corporate business to advise on all government policy."

Corporate businesses did not put Millibore into position, the unite trade union did,.........is that as good or as bad as lobbyists?

Not the demon Trade Unions again, oh dear. That war was fought thirty years ago, it's over.
But here you are, desperate for another 'scary' monster to frighten fence sitters with ...... and imagining the Unions are one but not wanting to admit for one second that Corporate business have usurped democracy.


Not over Affa, just moved undergroung prior to the next GE.
If Labour win, it will be tea and sandwhiches in Downing street again for Milliband is the Union puppet, and they will be pulling the strings.
Don't forget to curtsey on your way out, and next time access the forum via the servants/tradesman's entrance. ;-)
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Tigger
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Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U.
Correct, but what you are utterly incapable of understanding is that is 2014 and not some golden era when Britain ruled the waves and when there was fog in the channel the continent was cut off.

The boot is clearly on the other foot these days and we either join in and co operate or slowly wither on the vine, it really is that simple..........

And GROW UP! ;D
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Tigger
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RJD
Oct 28 2014, 02:38 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. And it would not be costing us an arm and a leg each and every year either. We could do business with any member state as members of this common market. And to do business with Europe, we do NOT need a High Commissioner for Foreign affairs, a European parliament, a common flag, a national anthem, moves towards a common military force, unelected high Poohbars lording it over us, and the constant salami slicing of national powers that will eventually lead to member states being just that; members of a United Statews of Europe, run from Brusels......and the commissioners! We have already lost control of our borders. E.U.law must take precedence over UK law.

And if the Euro is to survive, this can only be done in the long run by a complete fiscal union, and centralised control over budgets, and in the long run, welfare, taxation, and all else. It stands to reason when you think it through. There can be no other conclusion. Now if you want that; to be a minor offshore adjunct to the greater European state, then say so. But stop pretending that we HAVE to go along with this grand design, or lose out. We don't....and we won't!
In a recent analysis, linked here by me, the Germans gain the most from EU membership and the Brits the least. This is nothing to do with cost of membership. The result of this analysis shows the dependency of nations on membership to the EU and for the UK that is the smallest of all as a consequence the fear factor drum banged by the likes of Tig., is more in his head than in an likely reality. That said I am against anything that hurts business, particularly export business, but there is a cost level which for me is not acceptable and that is the loss of our control over our own borders. If the EU does not concede that our Parliament has paramount responsibility and authority over who can and cannot come here, for whatever reason, then I would in the interest of future generations vote to leave the EU. For me the upside far outweighs the downside.
Did it ever occur to you that Britain does less well because it is a half hearted member and still practices a form of divide and rule that would not fool a five year old Spaniard let alone an adult Frenchman?

The EU works for the majority of European citizens and for their nations, you have to ask yourself why is Britain so pig headedly different and awkward?

And I'll repeat in one more time, if Britain did not have such lax working regulations the great unwashed would not be making a bee line for Britain, can you actually comprehend that?
Edited by Tigger, Oct 28 2014, 08:00 PM.
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Lewis
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Tigger
Oct 28 2014, 07:58 PM
RJD
Oct 28 2014, 02:38 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U. There is NO benefit accruing to this nation as members of an ever enlarging and power grabbing United States of Europe that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject. And it would not be costing us an arm and a leg each and every year either. We could do business with any member state as members of this common market. And to do business with Europe, we do NOT need a High Commissioner for Foreign affairs, a European parliament, a common flag, a national anthem, moves towards a common military force, unelected high Poohbars lording it over us, and the constant salami slicing of national powers that will eventually lead to member states being just that; members of a United Statews of Europe, run from Brusels......and the commissioners! We have already lost control of our borders. E.U.law must take precedence over UK law.

And if the Euro is to survive, this can only be done in the long run by a complete fiscal union, and centralised control over budgets, and in the long run, welfare, taxation, and all else. It stands to reason when you think it through. There can be no other conclusion. Now if you want that; to be a minor offshore adjunct to the greater European state, then say so. But stop pretending that we HAVE to go along with this grand design, or lose out. We don't....and we won't!
In a recent analysis, linked here by me, the Germans gain the most from EU membership and the Brits the least. This is nothing to do with cost of membership. The result of this analysis shows the dependency of nations on membership to the EU and for the UK that is the smallest of all as a consequence the fear factor drum banged by the likes of Tig., is more in his head than in an likely reality. That said I am against anything that hurts business, particularly export business, but there is a cost level which for me is not acceptable and that is the loss of our control over our own borders. If the EU does not concede that our Parliament has paramount responsibility and authority over who can and cannot come here, for whatever reason, then I would in the interest of future generations vote to leave the EU. For me the upside far outweighs the downside.
Did it ever occur to you that Britain does less well because it is a half hearted member and still practices a form of divide and rule that would not fool a five year old Spaniard let alone an adult Frenchman?

The EU works for the majority of European citizens and for their nations, you have to ask yourself why is Britain so pig headedly different and awkward?

And I'll repeat in one more time, if Britain did not have such lax working regulations the great unwashed would not be making a bee line for Britain, can you actually comprehend that?
Let us have a vote to decide,I say. I think that the UK populous my well decide to remain in the EU. Moreover a simple in/out vote will suffice.
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Tigger
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Can't argue with that.

The facts need airing not the horseshit that the press pumps out
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Steve K
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RJD
Oct 28 2014, 07:38 PM
Steve K
Oct 28 2014, 04:38 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 04:20 PM
AND the referendum pamphlet you espouse is little more than a plea to vote "yes" for entry into a common market. In fact, it promises that there would be no loss of sovereignty, and Joe Bloggs,on reading it, would come to the conclusion that it would make sense to vote for membership to bolster our trading links with Europe. He had no ideas (and certainly would not have gained that impression from the pamphlet) that he was in effect signing away our sovereignty, and our right to self govern as an independent nation.

The whole thing was a con trick. You should get your facts right.
perhaps you need some help "to get your facts right"

from the very pamphlet (my highlighting):

Quote:
 
That is why we are asking you to vote in favour of remaining in the Community.

I ask you again to read and discuss this pamphlet.

Above all, I ask you to use your vote.

For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict.


Quote:
 
The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.


For those that could and can be bothered to read, it was clear it was more than a common market they were asked to consider before going into the polling stations. Now you may have wished to have the whole pamphlet or even European treaty printed on the ballot form but everyone else knows that's ridiculous. Everyone was properly informed, some chose to ignore it and many seem to have decided to try to adjust history.

If you do actually have the power to change history can you arrange for England to win the last World Cup.

Sorry but I have no idea how you concocted your claims from the words provided in that pamphlet. There is not one word, not one sentence that can be construed even by the most fertile of imaginations into forming the opinion that this pamphlet acknowledged and supported the programme for a formation of a federal political structure for Europe.
Bringing people together in Europe can mean just about anything. Remember the words were written by Politicians. The pamphlet actually does more to try and dispel the thought that we might be losing sovereignty.
perhaps you should read what I posted and not some imagined extrapolation

What I said was that the pamphlet clearly said it was more than a common market and I said nothing about any federalism. Can you refute that?
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Steve K
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Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 05:07 PM
No where does it even mention the hidden agenda. Nowhere does it mention the intended supremacy of E.U. law. You really are having difficulty in understanding what you purport to support your misguided opinion. I would stop now. the words "hole" and "dig" come to mind.

Oh do embrace reality. In the end it is the only way

You said we were told we were only joining a common market but the on the record evidence says "To bring together the peoples of Europe."; "To raise living standards and improve working conditions."; "To promote growth and boost world trade."; "To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world." and "
To help maintain peace and freedom "

Now are you saying that was just a pue common market as in your " that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject."

Perhaps in 1975 you did not read the "All the nine member countries also agree that any changes or additions to the Market Treaties must be acceptable to their own Governments and Parliaments." which quite clearly shows that the EC was expected to change and tat Parliament would be the judge on whether to approve or veto such changes

And guess what it never has become that United States of Europe has it. Not only that but Parliament has made sure in the 2011 legislation that the EU cannot move a millimetre towards such without a UK referendum that so approves.


No one was conned in 1975 but a lot of people seem to want to do some misleading now
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Tigger
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Steve K
Oct 28 2014, 08:45 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 05:07 PM
No where does it even mention the hidden agenda. Nowhere does it mention the intended supremacy of E.U. law. You really are having difficulty in understanding what you purport to support your misguided opinion. I would stop now. the words "hole" and "dig" come to mind.

Oh do embrace reality. In the end it is the only way

You said we were told we were only joining a common market but the on the record evidence says "To bring together the peoples of Europe."; "To raise living standards and improve working conditions."; "To promote growth and boost world trade."; "To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world." and "
To help maintain peace and freedom "

Now are you saying that was just a pue common market as in your " that we would not equally be able to enjoy as members of a mutually beneficial common market.......which is what we were told was on offer in the only referendum we have been allowed on this subject."

Perhaps in 1975 you did not read the "All the nine member countries also agree that any changes or additions to the Market Treaties must be acceptable to their own Governments and Parliaments." which quite clearly shows that the EC was expected to change and tat Parliament would be the judge on whether to approve or veto such changes

And guess what it never has become that United States of Europe has it. Not only that but Parliament has made sure in the 2011 legislation that the EU cannot move a millimetre towards such without a UK referendum that so approves.


No one was conned in 1975 but a lot of people seem to want to do some misleading now
It just boils down to the fact that people like Alberthall have never bothered to read the original documentation that the then common market set out, but do read tabloid newspapers or frequent single aim websites.
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C-too
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Show some sense Vote for the EU.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296
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Steve K
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C-too
Oct 28 2014, 10:33 PM
Show some sense Vote for the EU.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296
brave ^
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Affa
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Tytoalba
Oct 28 2014, 11:09 AM
Affa
Oct 27 2014, 11:01 AM
Rich
Oct 27 2014, 12:36 AM
"Give in to lobbyists with "loads o' money", and invite corporate business to advise on all government policy."

Corporate businesses did not put Millibore into position, the unite trade union did,.........is that as good or as bad as lobbyists?

Not the demon Trade Unions again, oh dear. That war was fought thirty years ago, it's over.
But here you are, desperate for another 'scary' monster to frighten fence sitters with ...... and imagining the Unions are one but not wanting to admit for one second that Corporate business have usurped democracy.


Not over Affa, just moved undergroung prior to the next GE.
If Labour win, it will be tea and sandwhiches in Downing street again for Milliband is the Union puppet, and they will be pulling the strings.

The Unions are irrelevant, their membership reduced, their rights curtailed, and in thirteen years got nothing from Labour other than inclusiveness (something lacking when the Tories are in government).

But what bothers me is that the damning influence you dare to claim the Unions have over a Labour government (but do not) is actually exerted by business no matter what party is in government, and cannot see anything wrong with that ........ why?

There is nothing more scary than power over ones life being in the the hands of corporate business that only recognises the ledger as being of consequence.






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Steve K
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Oh I think there's a fair few things that are a lot more scary Affa
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RJD
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Tigger
Oct 28 2014, 07:52 PM
Alberich
Oct 28 2014, 02:15 PM
The problem that the Tiggers of this world are unable to grasp is that it is NOT all or nothing when it comes to the E.U.
Correct, but what you are utterly incapable of understanding is that is 2014 and not some golden era when Britain ruled the waves and when there was fog in the channel the continent was cut off.

The boot is clearly on the other foot these days and we either join in and co operate or slowly wither on the vine, it really is that simple..........

And GROW UP! ;D
Not true. You have a habit of making up your claims. The UK and USA are growing and the EZ is tanking. Anyone who places the UK's future as only being with the EU is delusional. The USA is a far more important economy to the UK that the EU. Just look how much the UK invests in the USA and vica versa. Just look how much the UK and USA have investment assets outside of the EU and north America, compared to the rest of the EU. At the moment the EZ is on the verge of a third downturn in a row and is putting it's hopes on Germany which has just slide closer to the edge with factor outputs forecasts in rapid decline. That said the rest of the EU Banks are not in as good a shape as those based in the UK and on top of that the ECB has little or know room for manoeuvre. Push the EZ Banks into strengthening their weak balance sheets will not help any economic growth, however, in not doing so will put them at risk when the next chill wind blows and blow it will. Coupled with all of this the EU is losing global market share at an increased rate and soon Germany will find that it's pencils are being made elsewhere.
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RJD
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Affa
Oct 29 2014, 01:43 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 28 2014, 11:09 AM
Affa
Oct 27 2014, 11:01 AM
Rich
Oct 27 2014, 12:36 AM
"Give in to lobbyists with "loads o' money", and invite corporate business to advise on all government policy."

Corporate businesses did not put Millibore into position, the unite trade union did,.........is that as good or as bad as lobbyists?

Not the demon Trade Unions again, oh dear. That war was fought thirty years ago, it's over.
But here you are, desperate for another 'scary' monster to frighten fence sitters with ...... and imagining the Unions are one but not wanting to admit for one second that Corporate business have usurped democracy.


Not over Affa, just moved undergroung prior to the next GE.
If Labour win, it will be tea and sandwhiches in Downing street again for Milliband is the Union puppet, and they will be pulling the strings.

The Unions are irrelevant, their membership reduced, their rights curtailed, and in thirteen years got nothing from Labour other than inclusiveness (something lacking when the Tories are in government).

But what bothers me is that the damning influence you dare to claim the Unions have over a Labour government (but do not) is actually exerted by business no matter what party is in government, and cannot see anything wrong with that ........ why?

There is nothing more scary than power over ones life being in the the hands of corporate business that only recognises the ledger as being of consequence.






I think you have to understand that the Labour Paymasters are Public Sector Unions and they will and do resist any reduction in the size of Big Nanny, however, without such we are stuffed. Understand like yesteryear the bosses of these Unions are not friends of capitalism and are happy to see the State fail in order that their Marxist ideologies get a chance. If you think these Union Bosses are closet Capitalists then you are deluding yourself. Same old 1960s and 70s ideological claptrap about the State being the best provider, this against more that 100 years of evidence to show that it is definitely not and conversely is a danger to our health and welfare.
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Affa
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lol ........... Even the bloody Communists are Capitalists these days ......... this scare tactic of putting the Trade Unions up as enemies of capitalism is so out of date only the ancient remember when it could have been true.
Nobody believes it, not even you RJD, but as a 'divisive' tactic for political opportunism it worked before so let's keep it going.


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RJD
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Affa
Oct 29 2014, 12:02 PM
lol ........... Even the bloody Communists are Capitalists these days ......... this scare tactic of putting the Trade Unions up as enemies of capitalism is so out of date only the ancient remember when it could have been true.
Nobody believes it, not even you RJD, but as a 'divisive' tactic for political opportunism it worked before so let's keep it going.


You are confused as I did not mention "Trade Unions". Please read slowly.
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Boxter
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All these humiliations are being allowed to occour because in reality what we have sitting in No 10 is a mere puppet administration. The only function David Cameron or whoever follows him to the job have in life is to slavishly rubber stamp the dictats of their/our Brussels masters

Its all an illusion and a cruel sham to keep us in line and it explains why Cameron can be told doing anything to halt what the Mayoress of Calais termed an invasion of benefits seekers as ILLEGAL

Whats going to happen will they arrest him and chuch him in some prison near Strasbourg if he defied them. Not a chance because the truth is Cameron knows his place.

£1,7 Billion NO I SAY erem no problem Chairman Mao Barosso Sir

CAMERON: I Demand a cap on numbers coming here!

Chairman Mao Barosso: Thats illegal David

Cameron: Errm that all right then BOSS!

The Tories are falling apart over the head of it 1st Fallon puts into words exactly what the majority of British people are thinking and experiencing and the establishment come down like a ton of bricks to shut him up then Nick Boles Camerons own business and education minister makes this statement in the Guardian in light of the maroess of Calais stating that its our benefits system which is attracting the invasion of benefits seekers that Fallon referred to. Boles said "David Cameron 'may never be able to control' EU immigration"

How much clearer does it need to be we are merely a statlet of the United States of Europe undeclared and it would in fact be more honest if we actually got a say in electing our real rulers like Maoist Barosso instead of his stooge Cameron and his ilk!
Edited by Boxter, Oct 29 2014, 12:47 PM.
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Affa
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RJD
Oct 29 2014, 12:11 PM
Affa
Oct 29 2014, 12:02 PM
lol ........... Even the bloody Communists are Capitalists these days ......... this scare tactic of putting the Trade Unions up as enemies of capitalism is so out of date only the ancient remember when it could have been true.
Nobody believes it, not even you RJD, but as a 'divisive' tactic for political opportunism it worked before so let's keep it going.


You are confused as I did not mention "Trade Unions". Please read slowly.


Am I confused? Or is it you once more ......... and I will not accept the inverted comma 'definition' as meaning anything other than pedantry - to try to avoid recognition of your mistaken allegation.

Quote:
 
RJD
the Labour Paymasters are Public Sector Unions and they will and do resist any reduction in the size of Big Nanny, however, without such we are stuffed. Understand like yesteryear the bosses of these Unions are not friends of capitalism
Edited by Affa, Oct 29 2014, 03:04 PM.
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Steve K
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Boxter
Oct 29 2014, 12:43 PM
All these humiliations are being allowed to occour because in reality what we have sitting in No 10 is a mere puppet administration. The only function David Cameron or whoever follows him to the job have in life is to slavishly rubber stamp the dictats of their/our Brussels masters . . .
Well lets stop there and see if you can answer a question.

Why do you post such obviously false tripe?

Edited by Steve K, Oct 29 2014, 04:12 PM.
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Boxter
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Quote:
 
Why do you post such obviously false tripe?


Is that even to be graced with the epiphet argument? Which bit isw false and which bit is tripe its merely a statement of hard cold fact which explains otherwise totally irrational behaviour by those we fondly suppose that we have elected to rule this country;

They allegdly make our laws yet a maoist communist who no one in this country ever voted for states it illegal for our prime minister to do anything to stop benefits tourists swamping HIS OWN MINISTERS WORDS our towns and cities.

They demand £1.7billion and our prime minister who we elect to run our country once again is treated like a wee boy in the head masters study and the best he comes up with is he wont pay (ON THE 1st DECEMBER) but will do so shortly afterwards

Its so pathetic its sad

The only explaination is those making these statements are our real rulers and our elected leaders are their puppets
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