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| A glorious retreat; British pull out of Afghanistan | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 27 2014, 06:20 PM (179 Views) | |
| Heinrich | Oct 27 2014, 06:20 PM Post #1 |
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Regular Guy
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I do not know what the English politicians think they have achieved in Afghanistan but I am sure it was not worth the lives of 453 British soldiers. |
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| C-too | Oct 27 2014, 06:34 PM Post #2 |
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Honourable Member
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NATO agreement means that when any Western country is attacked (9-11/US Embasy in Kenya etc) then there is a responsibility on other NATO members to defend against such attacks. |
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| Steve K | Oct 27 2014, 06:41 PM Post #3 |
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Once and future cynic
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Have the towers in Canary Wharf been destroyed by aircraft attacks planned and sponsored in Afghanistan? Oops silly me, forgot you were in mode for anyone that might disagree with you.
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| Affa | Oct 27 2014, 11:39 PM Post #4 |
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Senior Member
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Tower Hamlets .......... dunno, maybe, maybe not. |
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| Cymru | Oct 27 2014, 11:46 PM Post #5 |
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Alt-Right
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Any evidence that they ever were to be? |
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| Steve K | Oct 28 2014, 12:00 AM Post #6 |
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Once and future cynic
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They were threatening the UK even before 9/11 "Since RAF bombers took part in air raids on Iraq in December, Bin Laden declared that he considered British citizens to be justifiable targets." http://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/feb/06/julianborger |
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| Cymru | Oct 28 2014, 12:21 AM Post #7 |
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Alt-Right
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Has our invasion stopped UK citizens being killed in terror attacks by Al-Qaeda? |
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| Heinrich | Oct 28 2014, 12:27 AM Post #8 |
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Regular Guy
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453 British citizens were killed in Afghanistan and more disabled ... all of them soldiers ... and for what? |
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| Boxter | Oct 28 2014, 12:31 AM Post #9 |
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Regular Member
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![]() AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN AND IN THE MORNING WE WILL REMEMBER THEM |
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| Heinrich | Oct 28 2014, 02:20 AM Post #10 |
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Regular Guy
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Has Protestantism taken hold in Basrah then? |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 28 2014, 03:14 AM Post #11 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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I don't give a rats arse what any politicians think. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29788534 I did find this link interesting. John Simpson, a man known for sticking on a flak jacket and making an exhibition of himself, suggests that while few britons may think we achieved anything at all, at least some of the locals think otherwise and the taliban are, according to him, unlikely to regain the power they once had. well that's the story according to Fairy Godmother Auntie Beeb. what the reality is, who knows, but I cannot help thinking that if the west had not gone out of its way to assist those glorious taliban mujahadeen freedom fighters in their nobile struggke against the commie pinko bastards of the societ socialist republic, then they would not have had to go back once the russians pissed off and set about killing so many of the men they glorified, lauded and for the most part armed ... Something else that you should peruse, heinrich. http://www.idcr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/03_11.pdf This document (from the self styled "institute for democracy and conflict resolution" which is actually a backroom in the university of essex into which a couple of professional students have barricaded themselves and refuse to come out ...) was published in 2011 and reviewed the way the public appetite for our continued military presence waned to the point where few polled even remember that the west went to afghanistan to remove the taliban government which had been recognised by a few arab states including saudi arabia after the russians left in 1996 ... Edited by johnofgwent, Oct 28 2014, 03:53 AM.
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| johnofgwent | Oct 28 2014, 03:18 AM Post #12 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Quite right too. But are you not having a little problem with your grasp of geography ... last time i checked Basra was in Iraq, not Afghanistan ... but I suppose one set of ragheads look very much like another ??? |
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| papasmurf | Oct 28 2014, 07:42 AM Post #13 |
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Senior Member
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High Wycombe 2014:-
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| Heinrich | Oct 28 2014, 07:51 AM Post #14 |
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Regular Guy
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Given the post you agreed with was promoting the Protestant Orange Order of North Ireland, would you equate English Catholic soldiers with "ragheads" too, I wonder. |
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| Pro Veritas | Oct 28 2014, 08:14 AM Post #15 |
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Upstanding Member
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1) I don't think we achieved much at all in Afghanistan - except protecting the mineral rights interests of some very big and powerful corporations. 2) I don't feel that Britain has been made safer because of our action in Afghanistan, in fact I think the opposite. 3) Anyone who thinks we are even remotely close to the "job done" point is delusional - we'll be back in within 3 years - to further defend those mineral rights. 4) All the mineral rights in Afghanistan are not worth the life of one British soldier, much less 453. All The Best |
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| Steve K | Oct 28 2014, 10:51 AM Post #16 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well actually it was a NATO invasion. There are no perfect solutions. Who could say what the level of deaths would have been if we'd just allowed Bin Laden's gang to continue to operate under Afghanistan regime sponsorship? But it'd have been higher. |
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| RJD | Oct 28 2014, 12:29 PM Post #17 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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So why did so many NATO members decide not to put their soldiers in the line of fire? Why is it that in the past NATO members have been able to pick and choose those conflicts which it does or does not wish to be involved with. My finger is pointing directly at Germany who is quick to get in on the spoils but reluctant to do any of the heavy lifting. |
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| johnofgwent | Oct 28 2014, 12:49 PM Post #18 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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what they do as soldiers of the british army is obey the orders of their command structure or suffer the consequences, which i admit are not as bad as they once were, and i have mixed feelings about that but these men are not doilg this as soldiers of the british army they are doing this as members of the orange order and all it stands for and all it condones and you can read my opinion of ian paisley and all he stood for on this site. i equate the "orange order" and their "marching season" with the shia "ragheads" who march through the streets of my city every year celebrating the murder of a load of sunnis in retaliation for the beheading of one of their imams who was so effing up his own ego he thought he could tell the warlords (they called themselves princes, but they were, in reality, just warlords) that they should stop worshipping allah THEIR way and worship him HIS way instead. A swift bit of navel gaazing (well, more accurately a brief bit of navel gazing, as his head fell past it on th eway to the floor ...) later his ego was shown the error of its ways. I have on several occasions pointed out the stark similarity on THEOLOGICAL grounds between the schism that separates sunni from shia, a theological doctrine relating to the role of the imam, one sect of which - the shia - thinks the imam is alone able to interpret the holy writ and instruct the faithful on the path of righteousness, while the other - the sunni - hold it to be self evident that any man holds within his mind and heart the means to come to the peace through submission to the will of allah, and the role of the imam in their quest is that of teacher and guide. There was an admssion by the american military at around the time of gulf war round one that they saw no difference between the theology of these sects and their grave error in this regard did not help their campaign to win hearts and minds. The catholic church, and its doctrine of papal infallibility and restriction of access to the holy writ such that all access should be under the control of the priest, versus the lutheran and its doctrine that the holy writ should be translated into the language of the common man for each man so given the means to read for himself the gospel was by that act fully empowered and entitled to come to a state of grace through PERSONAL acceptance of the sacrifice of christ and that personal act needed no priestly intercession. Thus it is a fact that the strife and discord between the sunni and shia "raghead" is in fact the exact same strife and for the very same reason, as we see between the catholic and protestant church ... Edited by johnofgwent, Oct 28 2014, 12:52 PM.
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| Heinrich | Oct 28 2014, 01:04 PM Post #19 |
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Regular Guy
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You have a point, JoG. Do bear in mind, however, that it is not theology which primarily separates average Muslims, if at all, rather, at this stage, it is a type of tribalism which does not exist among Christians in Britain but thrives in the depressed working class inner city areas of North Ireland stoked by firebrand hate. |
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| Boxter | Nov 5 2014, 12:19 AM Post #20 |
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You probably wont believe me when I relate that during the 1st war Canada supplied more Orange brethren for the fight than even existed in Ulster at the time. Over 80,000 to be precise. We have no beef with ordinary catholic people. We have our strongly held beliefs which are anchored in the reformed faith but bear no grudges towards any man. Republicanism is our enemy and even there a peace of sorts is slowly emerging after literally centuries of bitterness the depths of which we can see reflected in the middle east right now. Ulsters legacy to both wars is an ocean of our blood spilled to maintain freedom of Civil & Religious Liberty for all and Privledge for none. The defence of our land in WWII reveals clearly the dependence on Ulstermen at the time. Under Lord Gort as Commander-in-Chief were two Army Corps. The 1st was commanded by Lieutenant General Sir John Dill, from County Armagh, and the 2nd Corps by Lieutenant General Alan F. Brooke, from County Fermanagh the latter of whom Winston Churchill was to say “When I thump the table and push my face towards him what does he do? Thumps the table harder and glares back at me – I know these Brookes, stiff-necked Ulstermen, and there’s no one worse to deal with than that.” Early June of 1940 when the evacuation of that same Expeditionary Force, or rather the remnants of it, could not have been more vital for the continuation of Britain’s part in the struggle, it was to Harold Alexander, of Caledon, in County Tyrone, that the Commander-in-Chief turned to save the day.” As Churchill himself typically put it referring to Alexanders part in the operation , “He was a man for a tight comer Claude Auchinleck: Virginia Cowles in “The Phantom Major” described him as “an efficient, thorough, cautious Ulsterman”, but his caution was brought about by his deep rooted feeling of responsibility for those he commanded. However, he willingly accepted the offer of a young Scottish army officer, called David Stirling, to set up a force that would raid behind the enemy lines to destroy aircraft, lorries, and fuel dumps. 2nd in command of the regiment was a young officer, Blair Mayne, from Newtownards in County Down. He went on to become the most decorated soldier in ther British army whilst leading the force the forerunner of todays SAS. Blairs brother also recalled a time when they were boys their father used to have a shed at their home in Mountpleasant Newtownards for hanging animal carcasses. On occasions this attracted rats. The two boys and their father would then open the shed chasing them out of it whereupon they shot them with rifles. The rifles were a story in themselves as they were the remnants of those smuggled into Ulster during the ‘Home Rule’ crisis of 1912 aboard the ship the Clyde Valley. These arms were destined for the then Ulster Volunteer Force the men Lord Edward Carson had formed into a private army to fight against imposition of Irish Home Rule upon Ulster and one of whose members had been Blair Maynes father. Another famous ulsterman of WWII was Bernard Law Montgomery – known to all as Monty who took over the 8th Army from fellow Ulsterman Field Masrshal Sir Claude Auchinleck. “I ruffled people’s feelings, Alex smoothed them.” A typical response from Monty upon being put in command of the Eighth Army in August 1942 read “…..I then cancelled orders about a further withdrawal. I issued orders that if Rommel attacked, we would fight him on ground where we stood: There would be no withdrawal and NO SURRENDER!” (Titled ‘Situation in August 1942.’) It was eminently fitting that it was to Field Marshal Montgomery that the German forces surrendered at Luneberg Heath on 4th May, 1945. Field Marshal Lord Alanbrooke (Alan F. Brooke) was another outstandiung army commander of WWII who hailed from Colebrooke Co fermanagh. Yet again there was Field Marshal Sir Gerald Templer who was born at Loughgall, in County Armagh. He gave most distinguished service, especially as Division Commander in the hard fought campaign in Italy. Arlington National Cemetry in Virginia is the resting place of some of America’s greatest heroes and is the focus of American remembrance of its sons and daughters who died on active service. But among those American heroes rests a lone field marshal of the British Army who earned so much respect in wartime America that, as Winston Churchill wrote, “He was accorded the unique honour of a resting place in Arlington Cemetery, the Valhalla hitherto reserved exclusively for American warriors.” The man on whom that unique honour was bestowed was Sir John Dill, from Lurgan in Co Armagh the vital link in the Anglo-American alliance in Washington from January 1942 until his death on 4 November 1944. The personal representative of Churchill as Minister of Defence, Dill was recognised by the Americans as one of the outstanding individuals who cemented the alliance and made it work in spite of the differences on both sides that could have seriously damaged the war effort. I COULD CONTINUE!! Edited by Boxter, Nov 5 2014, 12:46 AM.
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| Steve K | Nov 5 2014, 12:44 AM Post #21 |
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Once and future cynic
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Not sure the relevance of all that ^ by Boxter to the thread but I will point out Montgomery was not an Ulsterman. Just look where his father and he were born and lived most of their lives.
Edited by Steve K, Nov 5 2014, 12:45 AM.
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| Heinrich | Nov 5 2014, 02:27 AM Post #22 |
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Regular Guy
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"freedom of Civil & Religious Liberty for all and Privledge for none" ... Are you serious? Civil rights for Catholics in North Ireland when the place was run by Orangemen and their paramilitary RUC??? Privilege for none when Catholics could not get jobs in Harland and Wolfe or the civil service with gerrymandering to insure Orange Protestant control of councils in towns with Catholic majorities??? Give us a break. North Ireland is a sectarian backwater in Europe. |
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| C-too | Nov 5 2014, 07:51 AM Post #23 |
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Honourable Member
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Isn't all this a bit ---- off topic ---- from a poster who complains when others go off topic? |
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mode for anyone that might disagree with you.


7:32 PM Jul 11