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Bad news for Ed.......AND Dave!
Topic Started: Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM (725 Views)
Alberich
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Alberich
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An interesting new poll in Scotland (IpsosMori) has SNP on 52%, Labour on 23%, the Tories on 10%, and the Lib Dems at the back of the queue with 6%. If this is translated into Westminster seats, it would mean that the SNP would end up with 54 MP's, and Labour would be reduced to only 4 MP's from north of the border. On first viewing this is good news for the nation, as it reduces the chances of Labour gaining an overall majority; which would be a disaster of biblical proportions. But if the conservatives also fail to gain an overall majority, then it would suggest another coalition parliament. The Lib Dems will be irrelevant, as they face wipe-out come the election. The unknown quantity is UKIP. They MAY achieve the much vaunted breakthrough, and gain a considerable number of MPs, but on the other hand they may simply be a convenient peg for the protest vote, and their support may well collapse as voters return to their traditional parties.

But if the Scottish poll is accurate, then the SNP could find itself in the strange position of actually holding the balance of power at Westminster....and then what? It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed.
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Lewis
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Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
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Alberich
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Alberich
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
Nothing like a well reasoned response to a debating point...is there, Lewis?
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somersetli
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
What's the other option..................A Labour incompetent government?...........surely not, better stick to the devil you know.

To return to the thread............... Do Scottish MPs want to vote on issues that only affect England, if so why do they want to?

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Heinrich
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Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
... It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed.
You are on first name terms with the English prime minister then? ... and you credit him with one Tory MP north of the border with the ability to destroy the Scottish National Party? I am dumbfounded.
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Lewis
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Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 07:15 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
Nothing like a well reasoned response to a debating point...is there, Lewis?
Not intended to be a debate point, more a statement of fact.
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Lewis
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somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:15 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
What's the other option..................A Labour incompetent government?...........surely not, better stick to the devil you know.

To return to the thread............... Do Scottish MPs want to vote on issues that only affect England, if so why do they want to?

A Labour government would be many times more preferable to that of the Tory incompetents.
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somersetli
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:39 PM
somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:15 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
What's the other option..................A Labour incompetent government?...........surely not, better stick to the devil you know.

To return to the thread............... Do Scottish MPs want to vote on issues that only affect England, if so why do they want to?

A Labour government would be many times more preferable to that of the Tory incompetents.
Even if it is incompetent?
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johnofgwent
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
In fact we already know what the outcome of the SNP's holding the balance of power would be, for they did in 2010.

.... As I pointed out on the old site, a day or so after the 2010 election poll closed, with the country still not knowing WTF was going to happen, the BBC did a magnificent explanation of where we were. Jeremy Vine did a five minute presentation that used graphics and CGI to devastating effect showing exactly how much shit we were in.

The numbers showed that after all the dust had settled, it was actually JUST possible for Gordon Brown to lead a minority labour government propped up as Jim Callaghan had been by votes from the opposition benches, but to do it, he needed the support of the lib dems (who had form for jumping into bed with labour in cardiff bay) and all the other ragamuffin hangers on, but also the Scottish Nationalists.

Salmand gave the order that the SNP would co-operate only as far as voting with Labour on an issue by issue basis and only if Labour complied with all manner of bribes to secure each vote at each division.

REMARKABLY Brown had the political sense and personal and professional integrity to tell him to ***k off.

I am actually astounded that he found it, but he did, and so the reason Her Majesty turned to David Cameron and he offered Clegg a few cabinet posts is that Alex Salmand demanded too high a bribe for labour's empowerment.

So now you know what transpired in 2010, tell me what the Scots Nats would do differently in 2015 given their avowed intent to destroy the union and thus their disdain and contempt for the english parliament....

if only more of the buggers had voted yes so we could eject their sorry arses over the terrace into the thames

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Rich
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.


I for one care.
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Lewis
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somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:44 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:39 PM
somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:15 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
What's the other option..................A Labour incompetent government?...........surely not, better stick to the devil you know.

To return to the thread............... Do Scottish MPs want to vote on issues that only affect England, if so why do they want to?

A Labour government would be many times more preferable to that of the Tory incompetents.
Even if it is incompetent?
Well there are degrees of incompetence and the current Tory one has surpassed anything Labour could achieve in terms of being incompetent.
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Lewis
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Rich
Oct 30 2014, 10:13 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.


I for one care.
So you want another incompetent Torny government? I certainly don't, that's what I care about.
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Tytoalba
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
I expect that you made a Freudian slip and meant to say another Labour incompetent government. Just old habits and indoctrination dying hard.
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Tytoalba
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 11:09 PM
Rich
Oct 30 2014, 10:13 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.


I for one care.
So you want another incompetent Torny government? I certainly don't, that's what I care about.
So its just a matter of your personal opinion, but not one of fact. Best leave it to the electorate and events to decide what public opinion truly is. The current forcast of a university professor on the mattter of predicting the even is that thwe Conservatives will win more votes over all , but labour will win the most seats, but not enough to form a governement.
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AndyK
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I am astounded that they are predicted to only get 4 seats.

So much gloating over the ejection of the Tories, and now its going to happen to them.

I don't get why they voted to stay in the UK, odd.....
Edited by AndyK, Oct 30 2014, 11:28 PM.
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Steve K
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well back on topic:
Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
An interesting new poll in Scotland (IpsosMori) has SNP on 52%, Labour on 23%, the Tories on 10%, and the Lib Dems at the back of the queue with 6%. If this is translated into Westminster seats, it would mean that the SNP would end up with 54 MP's, and Labour would be reduced to only 4 MP's from north of the border. On first viewing this is good news for the nation, as it reduces the chances of Labour gaining an overall majority; which would be a disaster of biblical proportions. But if the conservatives also fail to gain an overall majority, then it would suggest another coalition parliament. The Lib Dems will be irrelevant, as they face wipe-out come the election. The unknown quantity is UKIP. They MAY achieve the much vaunted breakthrough, and gain a considerable number of MPs, but on the other hand they may simply be a convenient peg for the protest vote, and their support may well collapse as voters return to their traditional parties.

But if the Scottish poll is accurate, then the SNP could find itself in the strange position of actually holding the balance of power at Westminster....and then what? It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed.

Very true. What an amazing bounce for the SNP who many (incl I) thought would collapse post referendum.

Still 6 months to go to the GE, a lot could happen.


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Affa
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Steve K
Oct 30 2014, 11:46 PM
What an amazing bounce for the SNP who many (incl I) thought would collapse post referendum.

Still 6 months to go to the GE, a lot could happen.



It was another victory for scare tactics. People were frightened, frightened of change.
The unknown was given so many looks I don't think anyone, even now, has a real understanding of what an Independent Scotland would truly look like.
A kick back of that is guilt.

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Rich
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Affa
Oct 31 2014, 12:04 AM
Steve K
Oct 30 2014, 11:46 PM
What an amazing bounce for the SNP who many (incl I) thought would collapse post referendum.

Still 6 months to go to the GE, a lot could happen.



It was another victory for scare tactics. People were frightened, frightened of change.
The unknown was given so many looks I don't think anyone, even now, has a real understanding of what an Independent Scotland would truly look like.
A kick back of that is guilt.



Whose guilt though?
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Boxter
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Prediction based on opinion polls from 31 Aug 14 to 24 Sep 14, sampling 1,841 people.
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/scotland.html
Edited by Boxter, Oct 31 2014, 02:06 AM.
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Rich
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UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
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Heinrich
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I hope UKIP win. It will be great fun.
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Cymru
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Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
But if the Scottish poll is accurate, then the SNP could find itself in the strange position of actually holding the balance of power at Westminster....and then what?
Then it will be back to the future when Gladstone's Liberals had to rely on the Irish Parliamentarians to pass legislation with the promise that the former would grant the latter's wish of Irish home rule in return.

And we all know what THAT led to.
Edited by Cymru, Oct 31 2014, 04:33 AM.
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Lewis
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Tytoalba
Oct 30 2014, 11:14 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
I expect that you made a Freudian slip and meant to say another Labour incompetent government. Just old habits and indoctrination dying hard.
Well nothing to do with Freud, who has been largely discredited. Me I tend to prefer the musings of Jung or Erikson, but that is something you wouldn't understand.

Now no slip at all and the repeat of another Tory incompetent government would be quite a disaster for this country of ours.
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C-too
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Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
UKip with their scare tactics and false promises. !puke!
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RJD
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Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 11:08 PM
somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:44 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:39 PM
somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:15 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
A Labour government would be many times more preferable to that of the Tory incompetents.
Even if it is incompetent?
Well there are degrees of incompetence and the current Tory one has surpassed anything Labour could achieve in terms of being incompetent.
You are a loan voice Lewis pi55ing in the wind and as usual you offer no evidence to support your claim which we now know is no more than the automatic emotional response brought about by your peculiar medical condition. Despite you thinking otherwise black is not white or vice versa.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Lewis
Oct 31 2014, 08:15 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 30 2014, 11:14 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
I expect that you made a Freudian slip and meant to say another Labour incompetent government. Just old habits and indoctrination dying hard.
Well nothing to do with Freud, who has been largely discredited. Me I tend to prefer the musings of Jung or Erikson, but that is something you wouldn't understand.

Now no slip at all and the repeat of another Tory incompetent government would be quite a disaster for this country of ours.
Utter rubbish, this Gov has been a major disappointment but that is no basis to assume that Labour would have done better, history indicates a lot worse. The most powerful reason to vote Tory is not for their Manifesto, but to deny Labour the opportunity to inflict theirs.
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Tytoalba
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Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
Ukip supporters are for the future of their country, culture, and their childrens future . and for the control of their country by their own parliament.
Put in place proper border controls, and an insistance that immigrants learn our language , customs and ways, and accept the country they came to as it is, without the desire or attempts to change it for their own old ways, or to milk it for themselves and their own, and UKIP might well lose its appeal
As. there is no sign that the political parties with the power to do something, refuse to listen to the people , and follow their own hidden agenda, then UKIP will increase its support.

UKIP is the voice of concerns expressed through the ballot box and in a peaceful democratic way. Cometh the hour cometh the man, and cometh the party.
Farage is the man, and UKIP the party of the moment.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for democracy.
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ACH1967
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Tytoalba
Oct 31 2014, 11:37 AM
Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
Ukip supporters are for the future of their country, culture, and their childrens future . and for the control of their country by their own parliament.
Put in place proper border controls, and an insistance that immigrants learn our language , customs and ways, and accept the country they came to as it is, without the desire or attempts to change it for their own old ways, or to milk it for themselves and their own, and UKIP might well lose its appeal
As. there is no sign that the political parties with the power to do something, refuse to listen to the people , and follow their own hidden agenda, then UKIP will increase its support.

UKIP is the voice of concerns expressed through the ballot box and in a peaceful democratic way. Cometh the hour cometh the man, and cometh the party.
Farage is the man, and UKIP the party of the moment.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for democracy.
How many immigrants do you mix with?
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Tytoalba
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ACH1967
Oct 31 2014, 11:40 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 31 2014, 11:37 AM
Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
Ukip supporters are for the future of their country, culture, and their childrens future . and for the control of their country by their own parliament.
Put in place proper border controls, and an insistance that immigrants learn our language , customs and ways, and accept the country they came to as it is, without the desire or attempts to change it for their own old ways, or to milk it for themselves and their own, and UKIP might well lose its appeal
As. there is no sign that the political parties with the power to do something, refuse to listen to the people , and follow their own hidden agenda, then UKIP will increase its support.

UKIP is the voice of concerns expressed through the ballot box and in a peaceful democratic way. Cometh the hour cometh the man, and cometh the party.
Farage is the man, and UKIP the party of the moment.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for democracy.
How many immigrants do you mix with?
My next door neighbour is a Nigerian, my dentist is a Sikh, and my supermarket has immigrants behind the tills. I am an immigrant myself in a technical way, having been born and raised in Pakistan.
Why do you ask?
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morayloon
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Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
But if the Scottish poll is accurate, then the SNP could find itself in the strange position of actually holding the balance of power at Westminster....and then what?
The SNP most definitely won't go into coalition with any of the Unionist parties.
Quote:
 
It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed
If the findings were anywhere near correct your fears would be allayed because the SNP has a policy of not voting on English only matters.
Incidentally, a YouGov poll puts the SNP on 43% with Labour on 28%. Peter Kellner suggests such an outcom would see Labour reduced to 10 MPs with the SNP on 47. Not quite so extreme as the IM findings but still very encouraging. With Labour, the main No party, imploding you would be forgiven for wondering who actually won the Referendum!!!
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/31/labours-scottish-nightmare/[/quote]
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RJD
Oct 31 2014, 08:46 AM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 11:08 PM
somersetli
Oct 30 2014, 07:44 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:39 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Even if it is incompetent?
Well there are degrees of incompetence and the current Tory one has surpassed anything Labour could achieve in terms of being incompetent.
You are a loan voice Lewis pi55ing in the wind and as usual you offer no evidence to support your claim which we now know is no more than the automatic emotional response brought about by your peculiar medical condition. Despite you thinking otherwise black is not white or vice versa.
!clp! !clp! !clp!
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ACH1967
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Tytoalba
Oct 31 2014, 12:32 PM
ACH1967
Oct 31 2014, 11:40 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 31 2014, 11:37 AM
Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
Ukip supporters are for the future of their country, culture, and their childrens future . and for the control of their country by their own parliament.
Put in place proper border controls, and an insistance that immigrants learn our language , customs and ways, and accept the country they came to as it is, without the desire or attempts to change it for their own old ways, or to milk it for themselves and their own, and UKIP might well lose its appeal
As. there is no sign that the political parties with the power to do something, refuse to listen to the people , and follow their own hidden agenda, then UKIP will increase its support.

UKIP is the voice of concerns expressed through the ballot box and in a peaceful democratic way. Cometh the hour cometh the man, and cometh the party.
Farage is the man, and UKIP the party of the moment.

A vote for UKIP is a vote for democracy.
How many immigrants do you mix with?
My next door neighbour is a Nigerian, my dentist is a Sikh, and my supermarket has immigrants behind the tills. I am an immigrant myself in a technical way, having been born and raised in Pakistan.
Why do you ask?
I wondered how you were forming your opinions. I just don't mix with immigrants so I only get information from news and papers and I have become less trusting of them. Do you find that the immigrants you know exhibit the attitudes you attribute to them?
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morayloon
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johnofgwent
Oct 30 2014, 08:19 PM
johnofgwent
 
Salmand gave the order that the SNP would co-operate only as far as voting with Labour on an issue by issue basis and only if Labour complied with all manner of bribes to secure each vote at each division
The SNP's course of action was set out prior to the 2010 election as this article clearly shows http://caledonianmercury.com/2010/03/18/snp-rules-out-post-election-pacts/003673

Quote:
 
REMARKABLY Brown had the political sense and personal and professional integrity to tell him to ***k off
Brown hates the SNP. Labour would have had to change its leader before the SNP would even consider a coalition - a course of action it would have dismissed (as the Crawford interview makes clear)

Quote:
 
I am actually astounded that he found it, but he did, and so the reason Her Majesty turned to David Cameron and he offered Clegg a few cabinet posts is that Alex Salmand demanded too high a bribe for labour's empowerment
A commitment to vote on an issue by issue basis should have been enough. The LibDems were the ones who condemned Brown to opposition.

Quote:
 
So now you know what transpired in 2010, tell me what the Scots Nats would do differently in 2015 given their avowed intent to destroy the union and thus their disdain and contempt for the english parliament....
The 'English' Parliament??? It is precisely that sort of thing that ensured Independence was (and still is) very much on the agenda



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somersetli
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C-too
Oct 31 2014, 08:27 AM
Rich
Oct 31 2014, 02:00 AM
UKIP for me all the way. /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/ /8/
UKip with their scare tactics and false promises. !puke!
A trait in common with ALL political parties.
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somersetli
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morayloon
Oct 31 2014, 01:18 PM
Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
But if the Scottish poll is accurate, then the SNP could find itself in the strange position of actually holding the balance of power at Westminster....and then what?
The SNP most definitely won't go into coalition with any of the Unionist parties.
Quote:
 
It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed
If the findings were anywhere near correct your fears would be allayed because the SNP has a policy of not voting on English only matters.
Incidentally, a YouGov poll puts the SNP on 43% with Labour on 28%. Peter Kellner suggests such an outcom would see Labour reduced to 10 MPs with the SNP on 47. Not quite so extreme as the IM findings but still very encouraging. With Labour, the main No party, imploding you would be forgiven for wondering who actually won the Referendum!!!
http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/10/31/labours-scottish-nightmare/[/quote]
There is a huge difference between "Having a policy of not voting on English only issues", and actually being prevented from doing so.
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Alberich
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Heinrich
Oct 30 2014, 07:37 PM
Alberich
Oct 30 2014, 06:50 PM
... It seems to me that Dave needs to resolve the West Lothian problem very quickly, and neuter the powers of Scottish MPs to have such a stranglehold on English legislation, otherwise we will be in very strange waters indeed.
You are on first name terms with the English prime minister then? ... and you credit him with one Tory MP north of the border with the ability to destroy the Scottish National Party? I am dumbfounded.
I'm not. I didn't. You usually are.
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morayloon
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somersetli
Oct 31 2014, 02:35 PM
There is a huge difference between "Having a policy of not voting on English only issues", and actually being prevented from doing so
Your perceived problem lies with the Unionist parties. I agree, the only way to get their Scottish MPs to stop voting on English issues is by banning them from doing so. I couldn't care less what your Unionist governments eventual course of action is. Nationalist MPs just don't do it: on principle
Edited by morayloon, Oct 31 2014, 04:14 PM.
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C-too
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RJD
Oct 31 2014, 08:50 AM
Lewis
Oct 31 2014, 08:15 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 30 2014, 11:14 PM
Lewis
Oct 30 2014, 07:04 PM
Who cares, just as long as we don't get another Tory incompetent government again.
I expect that you made a Freudian slip and meant to say another Labour incompetent government. Just old habits and indoctrination dying hard.
Well nothing to do with Freud, who has been largely discredited. Me I tend to prefer the musings of Jung or Erikson, but that is something you wouldn't understand.

Now no slip at all and the repeat of another Tory incompetent government would be quite a disaster for this country of ours.
Utter rubbish, this Gov has been a major disappointment but that is no basis to assume that Labour would have done better, history indicates a lot worse. The most powerful reason to vote Tory is not for their Manifesto, but to deny Labour the opportunity to inflict theirs.
That's your emotions taking control AGAIN.

History shows that the most damaging political party to the UK is the Tory party.
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Rich
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C-too
Oct 31 2014, 04:08 PM
RJD
Oct 31 2014, 08:50 AM
Lewis
Oct 31 2014, 08:15 AM
Tytoalba
Oct 30 2014, 11:14 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Well nothing to do with Freud, who has been largely discredited. Me I tend to prefer the musings of Jung or Erikson, but that is something you wouldn't understand.

Now no slip at all and the repeat of another Tory incompetent government would be quite a disaster for this country of ours.
Utter rubbish, this Gov has been a major disappointment but that is no basis to assume that Labour would have done better, history indicates a lot worse. The most powerful reason to vote Tory is not for their Manifesto, but to deny Labour the opportunity to inflict theirs.
That's your emotions taking control AGAIN.

History shows that the most damaging political party to the UK is the Tory party.

History also shows that people have more in their pockets and pay less tax when the conservative party rules on it's own without being hamstrung by the wooley minded libdems.
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C-too
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Rich
Oct 31 2014, 04:25 PM
C-too
Oct 31 2014, 04:08 PM
RJD
Oct 31 2014, 08:50 AM
Lewis
Oct 31 2014, 08:15 AM

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Utter rubbish, this Gov has been a major disappointment but that is no basis to assume that Labour would have done better, history indicates a lot worse. The most powerful reason to vote Tory is not for their Manifesto, but to deny Labour the opportunity to inflict theirs.
That's your emotions taking control AGAIN.

History shows that the most damaging political party to the UK is the Tory party.

History also shows that people have more in their pockets and pay less tax when the conservative party rules on it's own without being hamstrung by the wooley minded libdems.
The UK has been dominated by Tories for the whole of the 20th century. And for most of that period we had a low income economy. Things did change a little when employers began to understand that the more money workers had in their pockest the more they could/would by things like washing machines etc.


I got a job on 'first off and quality control' in engineering in the late sixties, one of the first comments I remember from that time was that, "engineering is low paid, but it is a job for life".
The first part was true. The peculiar thing is, that company was making an annual profit. Yet it closed down when Thatcher moved the goal posts.
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