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Itemised tax spends
Topic Started: Nov 4 2014, 05:14 PM (561 Views)
rizzo
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I see that Cameron's latest wheeze is to show tax-payers exactly how much they individually contribute to each pot.

I have only briefly read this ''idea'' but it would appear that the wording is heavily slanted towards the amount contributed to benefits.

Also itemised amongst others is the overseas aid figure, now Cameron is eager to point out that benefits MUST be reduced but no mention of reducing overseas aid, why is that? Could it be that the fat cats who cream off a goodly slice of that aid rush out to buy luxury cars, planes, yachts etc. along with shopping trips for their wives to London's Bond Street?

Doesn't Cameron realise that the majority of benefit payments get spent in the community and constantly reducing that figure only leads to more crime?
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C-too
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Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
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Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
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rizzo
Nov 4 2014, 05:14 PM


Doesn't Cameron realise that the majority of benefit payments get spent in the community and constantly reducing that figure only leads to more crime?
Of course he doesn't because he knows that this statement is simply untrue. The reality is that according to latest figures crime is down by 15% in England and Wales.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

I do wish that so many of the left wingers on this forum would stop peddling lies, rumour, fairy tales and conspiracy theories in an attempt to justify their discredited political philosophy.
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Tytoalba
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Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:48 AM
Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
Are you suggesting that the unermployed are naturally dishonest and will automatically turn to crime if they do not get what they want. ?
That seems to be a very cynical POV and rather insultig to members of our communities. Crime is committed by criminals and law breakers,. and we should not make excuses for them.
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C-too
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Tytoalba
Nov 7 2014, 11:35 AM
Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:48 AM
Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
Are you suggesting that the unermployed are naturally dishonest and will automatically turn to crime if they do not get what they want. ?
That seems to be a very cynical POV and rather insultig to members of our communities. Crime is committed by criminals and law breakers,. and we should not make excuses for them.
I agree, nevertheless there is a trend that the higher unemployment is and the poorer people are then a percentage of the people suffering these inequalities will turn their backs on society and indulge in crime and or in the black market.

For a lot of people unemployment is not just being out of work, it is a position of embarrassment, frustration and for some anger.

One of the weaknesses of the human emotional system is the feeling of or in some cases the perception of, rejection. Each failed application for a job is a form of rejection for many.
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rizzo
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Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:57 AM
rizzo
Nov 4 2014, 05:14 PM


Doesn't Cameron realise that the majority of benefit payments get spent in the community and constantly reducing that figure only leads to more crime?
Of course he doesn't because he knows that this statement is simply untrue. The reality is that according to latest figures crime is down by 15% in England and Wales.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

I do wish that so many of the left wingers on this forum would stop peddling lies, rumour, fairy tales and conspiracy theories in an attempt to justify their discredited political philosophy.
Where do YOU think the benefit payments get spent then?

If people become so desperate some WILL turn to crime, have you ever been so short of money that you cannot afford food?

The fact that crime figures are supposedly falling is that some low level crimes such as burglery don't show on the statistics now, coupled with that many people don't even bother to report crimes as they know through experience that the police are not interested.
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ACH1967
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rizzo
Nov 7 2014, 12:44 PM
Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:57 AM
rizzo
Nov 4 2014, 05:14 PM


Doesn't Cameron realise that the majority of benefit payments get spent in the community and constantly reducing that figure only leads to more crime?
Of course he doesn't because he knows that this statement is simply untrue. The reality is that according to latest figures crime is down by 15% in England and Wales.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/24/crime-rate-england-wales-falls-lowest-level-33-years

I do wish that so many of the left wingers on this forum would stop peddling lies, rumour, fairy tales and conspiracy theories in an attempt to justify their discredited political philosophy.
Where do YOU think the benefit payments get spent then?

If people become so desperate some WILL turn to crime, have you ever been so short of money that you cannot afford food?

The fact that crime figures are supposedly falling is that some low level crimes such as burglery don't show on the statistics now, coupled with that many people don't even bother to report crimes as they know through experience that the police are not interested.
Don't like the figures...dismiss the figures.

Care to reference the fact that burglary isn't recorded anymore?
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Lefty
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Nov 7 2014, 09:48 AM
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
The point I was making is the government's own website shows this, yet George Osborne neglects to show these figures in his 'transparent' tax statement.

He's just picking the statistics which suit his argument ahead of the election.

It's Tory propaganda and at a cost of £5m to the same hard-working taxpayers he claims to defend.
Edited by Lefty, Nov 7 2014, 02:49 PM.
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ACH1967
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Lefty
Nov 7 2014, 02:46 PM
Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:48 AM
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
The point I was making is the government's own website shows this, yet George Osborne neglects to show these figures in his 'transparent' tax statement.

He's just picking the statistics which suit his argument ahead of the election.

It's Tory propaganda and at a cost of £5m to the same hard-working taxpayers he claims to defend.
"He's just picking statistics that suit his argument" well duuuuhhhh he's a f**king politician. It's what they do.
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Lefty
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Indeed, but it would be good to see some more honest, straight-faced politicians. Maybe then there will be more public trust.
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RJD
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Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
Or just maybe, maybe mind, the Taxpayers should know where their money is spent with an great emphasis on the THIER. Or is it an impertinence to consider it other that the State's money?
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Lefty
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In theory, I have no problem with a proper transparent tax statement.

The issue I have is the one proposed by George Osborne is not transparent - it only tells us what he wants people to know.

Suzanne Moore in the Guardian sums it up well http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/03/tory-tax-statement-welfare-budget-unemployment-pensions-cuts
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RJD
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Lefty
Nov 7 2014, 04:18 PM
In theory, I have no problem with a proper transparent tax statement.

The issue I have is the one proposed by George Osborne is not transparent - it only tells us what he wants people to know.

Suzanne Moore in the Guardian sums it up well http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/03/tory-tax-statement-welfare-budget-unemployment-pensions-cuts
Yes I know all that, they probably drafted the article before seeing any pie charts. But it has been normal to lump OAP in the Welfare slice of the pie for a very long time now, Brown did exactly the same as that is where it belongs. The only claim you can make is maybe it would be better to show more slices. Why not? The rest is lefty whining and whinging.
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Lefty
Nov 7 2014, 04:18 PM
In theory, I have no problem with a proper transparent tax statement.

The issue I have is the one proposed by George Osborne is not transparent - it only tells us what he wants people to know.

Suzanne Moore in the Guardian sums it up well http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/03/tory-tax-statement-welfare-budget-unemployment-pensions-cuts


It does sum it up well. The tories have been very deft at demonising the weak and vulnerable. Maybe the young people will question WTF the baby boomers are taking so much from society...and dont tell us they ' paid' it because they havent. Previous governments havent put their pension contributions into a post office account and watched it gently grow, they have spent it and expected others to take up the obligation later.
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rizzo
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ACH1967
Nov 7 2014, 01:21 PM


The fact that crime figures are supposedly falling is that some low level crimes such as burglery don't show on the statistics now, coupled with that many people don't even bother to report crimes as they know through experience that the police are not interested.
Don't like the figures...dismiss the figures.

The Telegraph, amongst other publications, have quite recently shown that the police manipulate the crime figures to suit. Many crimes only are shown if they are solved or if violence is involved.<br /><br />The police actually admit this fact, if you care to search you will find that I'm correct, sadly.
Edited by rizzo, Nov 7 2014, 04:46 PM.
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RJD
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gansao
Nov 7 2014, 04:38 PM
Lefty
Nov 7 2014, 04:18 PM
In theory, I have no problem with a proper transparent tax statement.

The issue I have is the one proposed by George Osborne is not transparent - it only tells us what he wants people to know.

Suzanne Moore in the Guardian sums it up well http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/03/tory-tax-statement-welfare-budget-unemployment-pensions-cuts


It does sum it up well. The tories have been very deft at demonising the weak and vulnerable. Maybe the young people will question WTF the baby boomers are taking so much from society...and dont tell us they ' paid' it because they havent. Previous governments havent put their pension contributions into a post office account and watched it gently grow, they have spent it and expected others to take up the obligation later.
Good point. Maybe as well as the Spending Graphic it might be an idea to print the total national debt plus all liabilitis on wage slips every month to remind everyone that we are still binging on our grandchildren's tab.UK National Debt Clock

Increasing at the rate of £5170 every second. That is we are borrowing from the future to pay for our current consumption at the rate of £5170 every second. Selfish bastards.

Quote:
 
The truth however is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 trillion, some £78,000 for every person in the UK.


Put the lot on payslips, maybe on every Public Sector PC screen across the land.
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RJD
Nov 7 2014, 04:52 PM
gansao
Nov 7 2014, 04:38 PM
Lefty
Nov 7 2014, 04:18 PM
In theory, I have no problem with a proper transparent tax statement.

The issue I have is the one proposed by George Osborne is not transparent - it only tells us what he wants people to know.

Suzanne Moore in the Guardian sums it up well http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/03/tory-tax-statement-welfare-budget-unemployment-pensions-cuts


It does sum it up well. The tories have been very deft at demonising the weak and vulnerable. Maybe the young people will question WTF the baby boomers are taking so much from society...and dont tell us they ' paid' it because they havent. Previous governments havent put their pension contributions into a post office account and watched it gently grow, they have spent it and expected others to take up the obligation later.
Good point. Maybe as well as the Spending Graphic it might be an idea to print the total national debt plus all liabilitis on wage slips every month to remind everyone that we are still binging on our grandchildren's tab.UK National Debt Clock

Increasing at the rate of £5170 every second. That is we are borrowing from the future to pay for our current consumption at the rate of £5170 every second. Selfish bastards.

Quote:
 
The truth however is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 trillion, some £78,000 for every person in the UK.


Put the lot on payslips, maybe on every Public Sector PC screen across the land.


I dont consider the meagre allowances given to the unemployed as ' binging' TBH. In fact 'welfare' makes it possible for people to be low paid and not be impoverished so maybe the employers should be given their own special slip showing working tax credits paid
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Steve K
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Affa
Nov 4 2014, 11:57 PM
Or only part of the story ......... so why not breakdown welfare spending?

£56.7bn, 50% of the total welfare spend, is for social protection n.e.c – defined by the UN as the administration costs . . .

Well some of you may have noticed I've been repeatedly asking Affa to back that up with a link and less than getting an answer. Affa seems to want to hide his source, well Google and a curious mind can be a bugger for those with something to hide

Affa you copied it from This Blog didn't you (and without crediting as well !nono! )

So let's look at what that vexatious blogger says is the source

Avid Inquirer's Blog
 
What may surprise those who currently buy into that myth is the welfare spending figures (as sourced from ukpublicspending.co.uk). Total welfare spending in the UK for 2013 was £114.1bn (17% of UK government spending). Of which (in order of magnitude):

£56.7bn, 50% of the total welfare spend, is for social protection n.e.c – defined by the UN as the administration costs

But he's got it totally wrong, just at look at his ukspending link, use the drill down and all is revealed:

Social Protection
MainSubCentralLocalTotal
Social protection n.e.c.£3.2B£53.5B£56.7B
-Social protection n.e.c. (CKSNE)£3.2B
-Social protection (capital) (LCSOP)£0.2B£0.2B
-Social protection (current) (LKSOP)£53.3B£53.3B


Far from "administration" the bulk of it is in the monies Local Authorities deliver as serious benefits. See Annex A of This report that just for England shows the big hitter items are very much anything but administration

Well as you said yourself

Affa
Nov 4 2014, 10:02 PM

It is propaganda .. pure and simple . . .


Just anti gov propaganda this time. And you bought it  ::)
Edited by Steve K, Nov 7 2014, 05:52 PM.
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Affa
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Steve K
Nov 7 2014, 05:50 PM


Affa seems to want to hide his source, well Google and a curious mind can be a bugger for those with something to hide


You are calling me a liar!

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Steve K
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Affa
Nov 7 2014, 07:28 PM
Steve K
Nov 7 2014, 05:50 PM


Affa seems to want to hide his source, well Google and a curious mind can be a bugger for those with something to hide


You are calling me a liar!

No I did not and I am not

I said you refused to answer questions about a highly contentious £Bmulti figure and I've now shown why. It was rubbish, based on a silly blog written by a propagandist who didn't read his source properly

Can you challenge that?

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Affa
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Steve K
Nov 7 2014, 07:57 PM
Affa
Nov 7 2014, 07:28 PM
Steve K
Nov 7 2014, 05:50 PM


Affa seems to want to hide his source, well Google and a curious mind can be a bugger for those with something to hide


You are calling me a liar!

No I did not and I am not

I said you refused to answer questions about a highly contentious £Bmulti figure and I've now shown why. It was rubbish, based on a silly blog written by a propagandist who didn't read his source properly

Can you challenge that?


I had answered .........
Quote:
 

I had difficulty finding the original link which set out to debunk some of the myths about Welfare spending, how out of work costs are among the least spend for instance. However; Social protection nec is a large bill and from what I did find when looking for that previous link is that administration costs are included but not entirely itemised ...... the actual administration spend is hidden.
It was that other link that had more detail and made the calculation of 'half'.


You have made contradictory allegations that in effect 'call the above lies'.

I did attempt to find the original link, even used the search term myth to find it, and google did not return it ......... and to prevent you calling me a liar ........

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=uk+welfare+spending+myth&oq=uk+welfare+spending+myth&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64l3.14055j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

I am not as petulant as some, need no correction, I have corrected the wrong doing myself so that readers will know the right of it.



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Affa
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Want to know how much Welfare was costing the Nation after eighteen years of Conservative government?

Posted Image

An itemised explanation wasn't thought a good idea at that time, so why now? Is it to show that welfare spending is actually lower today than then?


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Steve K
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Affa
Nov 7 2014, 09:12 PM
I had answered ....
Your answer you refer to did not include that £56.7 figure or a link to a page that included it so I asked again. When I got no answer I looked myself and found it - as it happens very quickly

It all came from a blog either incompetently misreading or deliberately misrepresenting the data to give the false impressions that (a) staggering £56B is being spent on administration and (b) that is being deliberately misrepresented in these itemised letters to tax payers.

I repeat that it is my belief you got taken in by that Blogger. But we still have a prominent post by you giving a seriously false impression about the Treasury. Why not correct it?
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Affa
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If it is the size of the Welfare Bill that offends you as a tax payer, if reducing this bill is a big part of you making a vote decision, then you will vote Labour. The record shows that the Welfare spend always increases when the Conservatives are in government, and has only been significantly reduced by Labour in government.

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Lewis
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Affa
Nov 7 2014, 09:26 PM
Want to know how much Welfare was costing the Nation after eighteen years of Conservative government?

Posted Image

An itemised explanation wasn't thought a good idea at that time, so why now? Is it to show that welfare spending is actually lower today than then?


Interesting graph that clearly implies that the most welfare profligate are the incompetent Tories.
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Tytoalba
Nov 7 2014, 11:35 AM
Major Sinic
Nov 7 2014, 09:48 AM
Lefty
Nov 6 2014, 10:24 PM
I believe this so-called 'transparent' tax statement idea from George Osborne is a cynical ploy from this government to justify their cuts to welfare and turn the "hard-working" taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits.

The government's own website shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed, while pensions account for 46%.
If the 'Government's own website' shows that only 3% of welfare goes to the unemployed then it is hard to understand how an initiative to improve financial transparency from the government can be considered a cynical ploy to justify cuts to welfare and to turn the hard working taxpayer against the unemployed on benefits. Like many other left wingers on this forum you see conspiracies, shadows and monsters where they don't exist.
Are you suggesting that the unermployed are naturally dishonest and will automatically turn to crime if they do not get what they want. ?
That seems to be a very cynical POV and rather insultig to members of our communities. Crime is committed by criminals and law breakers,. and we should not make excuses for them.
If you are replying to my post I don't see the relevence, but I suspect that you are replying to another post altogether
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