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| Labour joins the immigration bandwagon | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 18 2014, 11:30 PM (1,581 Views) | |
| AndyK | Nov 18 2014, 11:30 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Member
  ![]](http://z5.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2839327/Labour-ban-jobless-EU-migrants-claiming-benefits-TWO-YEARS-plan-curb-welfare-tourism.html#ixzz3JRL8mAIO Lets remind ourselves what the previous rhetoric was.  |
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| Deleted User | Nov 20 2014, 02:00 PM Post #41 |
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Jump off a tall building.... you will be perfectly OK until you reach the ground. Your assertion is contentious to say the least. In fact it has been debated ad nauseum on the other forum. |
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| RJD | Nov 20 2014, 03:36 PM Post #42 |
Prudence and Thrift
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Really. You have got to larf as capitalism seeks to drive down costs but the last lot was Hell bent on doing the opposite. "Social minded purposes" such as making Bankers bonuses fat on the backs of well padded PFI projects. Who was it that dished out Gongs to Bankers? |
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| papasmurf | Nov 20 2014, 04:51 PM Post #43 |
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Pardon. I can't see any signs of that happening. |
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| Rich | Nov 20 2014, 07:07 PM Post #44 |
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"As a supporter of the Tory party I am sorry that you should consider me a rank hypocrite but I consider that you are wholly unjustified in doing so. No party has a greater responsibility for the influx of 'plucky immigrants' than Labour and the resulting issues regarding rates of pay etc. The Tories have been relatively hamstrung in doing enough about it by EU legislation. I think I see a different target for the accusation of rank hypocrisy." Well major, whilst we are speaking of Hypocrisy, let us see if those from the old red nag read the following:- http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/537643/James-Delingpole-Labour-immigration |
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| papasmurf | Nov 20 2014, 07:21 PM Post #45 |
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James Delingpole? You are having a laugh. |
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| RJD | Nov 20 2014, 07:24 PM Post #46 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Truth is Rich that the current Gov. should have done a lot more than it has. It does not appear to be leading, but driven by public opinion that is revved up by UKIP. A strong Leader, one with some conviction, would have nailed his colours to the mast and bullied the Servants of the Crown to get on with the job. My impression is that Cameron is driven by events and not leading the pack. As for the other lot they just ooze insincerity. |
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| RJD | Nov 20 2014, 07:27 PM Post #47 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Same old tired bad logic of trying to besmirch the character of the Author without first understanding his claims. Been the stance of the left since before October 1917. The left are incapable of learning, it must be genetic. |
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| papasmurf | Nov 20 2014, 07:30 PM Post #48 |
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James Delingpole self confessedly know nothing about anything, and has been proving it for decades. |
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| RJD | Nov 20 2014, 07:38 PM Post #49 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Not a pseudonym of yours is it? Again the individual may have demonstrated some ignorance on some matters in the past, but I doubt that justifies the likes of you, an unqualified armchair Politician, from being able to proclaim with any degree of certainty that all future utterances must and will also be ignorant tripe. Mr Smurf you use the same old trick week in week out in a crude manner. |
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| papasmurf | Nov 20 2014, 07:48 PM Post #50 |
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Delingpole has made career out of knowing nothing about anything. A young audience wiped the floor with him during a recent debate on BBC3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04plhkq/free-speech-series-3-episode-10 |
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| Tigger | Nov 20 2014, 07:53 PM Post #51 |
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Only you would know for certain if you are a rank hypocrite, however I must take you to task over the allegation that many British workers are lazy, and as a current employer let me explain my reasoning and experience, the construction industry is awash with immigrants driving down wages, skill levels and even the long term viability of many businesses. The reasons are of course varied but short termism is near the top of the list, a couple of reasons why I do not employ immigrants, firstly most have a plan, ie earn enough here and then return home to kickstart a family/house/career because living costs are lower back home, secondly and as our business is at the higher end of the market and we charge a premium we must have skilled and qualified staff who will hang about and that means paying multiples of the minimum wage and employing locals, but then this brings me onto the next problem and in my opinion the biggest obstacle to not only me growing my business but just about everyone else as well, the cost of housing! This is a typical problem we face in retaining skilled staff, we put them through an apprenticeship at considerable expense to ourselves and end up with a valuable and skilled worker, they them might want to get married and have kids, the problem is I cannot afford to pay them enough to buy anything other than a shitty, shoddy flat! The end result of this demotivation to work hard is they either move up North or emigrate! We cannot keep expecting those younger than ourselves to keep paying for us to live the way we do, I cringe when I hear the better off criticise our youngsters and compare them to immigrants who at least have a future in their own country, sadly I'm very pessimistic about Britain's longer term viability, I can see civil unrest and political chaos on the horizon because the top end of society is kidding itself and taking the goodwill of the masses for granted. Hypocrisy? Perhaps not on reflection, but most certainly complacency and a degree of arrogance........ Edited by Tigger, Nov 20 2014, 07:55 PM.
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| Tigger | Nov 20 2014, 07:57 PM Post #52 |
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That would be both the main political parties, best get your glass eye fixed.......... |
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| Tigger | Nov 20 2014, 08:00 PM Post #53 |
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Read any links lately? 
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| papasmurf | Nov 20 2014, 08:14 PM Post #54 |
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Quite. |
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| Affa | Nov 20 2014, 08:51 PM Post #55 |
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There is little doubt that John Smith was about to lead the Labour to victory, his popularity in polls established it - plus even the Tory press were ant-Tory at the end - Scandals will do that. Which more or less puts all these New Labour were formed because Old Labour were unelectable to bed. The right still cannot accept that they lost because of their own failings! Blair was a Third way Politician = inclusive. Not in the Unions pocket, and not in the Money's pocket either - a Government for ALL. The only time we have had one. Edited by Affa, Nov 20 2014, 08:53 PM.
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| Deleted User | Nov 20 2014, 08:53 PM Post #56 |
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Yup . Straight out of the unions pockets and straight into Dubya's 
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| C-too | Nov 20 2014, 09:05 PM Post #57 |
Honourable Member
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I'm well used to your completely biased selective memory nonsense. All it does is to reveal your hatred of NL, you're the guy who said, on the old board which is open again, he would not promote a man because he was a Labour voter. Edited by C-too, Nov 20 2014, 09:06 PM.
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| RJD | Nov 21 2014, 08:44 AM Post #58 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I did not say that C2, check your facts. I said I would never, have never, promoted a Labour activist who brings his politics too the Office. Unless they bring their soapbox to the Office I would have no idea as to their political persuasion and such people have proven to be throughly disruptive towards the objectives of the business. There used to be a lot of big mouths back in the 1960s who thought that promulgating their politics took precedence over that which they were contracted to perform. Many of them wrecked their career opportunities. Funny how it is, was, that the right having no tribe also had no soapbox blowhards. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 21 2014, 08:51 AM Post #59 |
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As usual you are missing the point. It is a further example of gross and blatant hypocrisy by Labour, so comprehensively ignored by so many of the left wing on this forum. |
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| RJD | Nov 21 2014, 08:51 AM Post #60 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Forgot to add that all those claims are based in facts, the variety you spend your waking days attempting to white wash. Yes NL did dilute or was it destroy the Regulatory System, yes Bankers made a fortune from pumped up PFI projects and yes they, New Labour, were behind the Gonging of those that they would now not rub shoulders with. All facts and they stick in your craw. It is also a fact, one that will go down in history, that NL pumped up Public Spending on the back of an unsustainable bubble and at the same time oversaw the further drift from production to debt fuelled consumption. This will never ever be forgotten. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 21 2014, 09:48 AM Post #61 |
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You describe a very similar scenario regarding recruitment in your business to the situation I had in mine; the need for technically trained and skilled staff formed the majority of my workforce. In addition, because they were interfacing extensively with professionals they had to be totally fluent in written and spoken English. Therefore I too extensively employed British staff. I also take on board your comments about housing, certainly in the South East and the damage that this can cause in terms of the aspiration and motivation of skilled staff, and in particular the younger ones. This opens up an entirely different direction for discussion with regard to this category of (skilled) worker. My post focused on the unskilled and to a lesser extent the semi-skilled who in many cases lack any worth ethic. A fairly comprehensive, in comparative international terms, welfare support system enables people in this social sector or category to enjoy the basics of life without actually having to work. Very often the work that is available for this sector is not of sufficient economic value to justify higher payment and therefore the differential, if indeed a differential even exists in some cases, and it is therefore 'competing' with the welfare system. Without a work ethic and a sense of individual resonsibility the welfare system will always win. We then throw immigration into the mix. Many economic migrants come from societies which make even our lowest socio-economic groups seem well off in comparision and the rewards they get from even the most menial work exceed their expectations. This either creates a work ethic or fosters one which latently existed and as a result many demonstrate a reliability and wllingness to work hard so often lacking in our own citizens. You can hardly blame a business owner or manager for employing the best option available whether a native Brit or a 'plucky immigrant'. One aside that I would make is that very often the employment exploitation of immigrants is carried out by their own countrymen and not by greedy British businessmen at all. Now the disclaimer! I fully understand and accept that within the unskilled, unemployed sector there is a majority who want to work and gain skills. However it is my contention that there is a sizeable minority who don't want to work, either because they are simply bone idle or because any differential between unskilled wages and benefits is too small to be attractive. If these views qualify me as arrogant I will put my hands up. My refusal to suffer fools gladly often earns me this epitaph. Complacent? I don't think I would be debating the issues on a political forum if I was truly complacent. |
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| papasmurf | Nov 21 2014, 10:08 AM Post #62 |
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Care to provide any credible evidence for "in many cases lack any work ethic." (It is nothing more than a Tory propaganda sound bite, with nothing to back it up.) Quote from a recently published book I have just purchased which I will be sending to Iain Duncan Smith as a Christmas Present to his home address, because it collates data in depth and detail which shoots IDS down in flames over most of the statement on benefits he has ever made. "But if most people are only unemployed or workless for short periods of time, how is it we hear of two-generation families who have never worked or that there are even:- "Some estates, where often three generations of families have never worked", as Iain Duncan Smith Put it in 2009. Or even four generations according to one of his colleagues. The simple answer is that such cases are very rare. Indeed Robert MacDonald, Tracy Shildrick, and Andy Furlong refer in their fruitless eight month search for actual families where three generations had never worked in very high unemployment areas of Glasgow and Teesside as "hunting the Yeti"" (John Hills, Good Times, Bad Times, The Welfare Myth of Them and Us, ISBN 978 1 44732 003 6 page page 93) |
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| Deleted User | Nov 21 2014, 10:33 AM Post #63 |
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Papasmurf I rarely do more than gloss over your mutterings and ramblings. Your posts are invariably subjective, bigoted, lack reason or reality and distort the truth. You are not, in my opinion, someone worthy of engaging with. I will supply exactly the evidence you have previously provided ' EVERYONE KNOWS ITS TRUE!' now (expletive deleted) off! |
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| papasmurf | Nov 21 2014, 10:40 AM Post #64 |
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Water of a ducks back, you just don't like the truth, as it challenges your ill informed view. I suspect Mo Stewarts speech, all of which can be backed up with publicly available data, has seriously rattled your complacent cage:- http://independent.academia.edu/MoStewart Mo Stewart Research Interests: Welfare Reform, Sociology, Public Policy, Social Work, Social Policy, Disability Studies, and Disability About: Medically retired healthcare professional, disabled female veteran and independent researcher. |
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| C-too | Nov 21 2014, 11:16 AM Post #65 |
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That was not your original comment, your original comment was a 'smirking' type comment of how you were able to treat labour voters. Later on you backtracked and said you did not promote the individual you had in mind because s/he was not the best qualified for promotion, and that comment only came about because I challenged you on what was best from a business point of view. Now you come up with a different scenario altogether. You have a very active but closed and a not entirely trustworthy mind. |
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| C-too | Nov 21 2014, 11:30 AM Post #66 |
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There are more scenarios; People who have given up hope of getting a job. People who are suffering low level depression which robs them of enthusiasm, but do not understand their situation. People who suffer from the emotional ownership of rejection at such a level that they know/feel that any interview will end in the painful feelings of rejection. As human beings are so different anyone with a closed minded attitude about people says more about that individual than it does about those they have fixed closed minded opinions about. |
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| ACH1967 | Nov 21 2014, 11:42 AM Post #67 |
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See Major...they are not lazy they are suffering from "the emotional ownership of rejection" the poor little bunny rabbits there there there. And your lack of appreciation and understanding for these poor sould clearly indicates your closed mindedness, shame on you. The rest of us should all dig deep into our pockets to protect these poor fragile souls from the harshness of such things as applying for a job attending an interview and...wait for it...not getting the job. How can they possibly cope with such things or more importantly...are there really that many that fall into this category or is this just another load of PC BS to justify laziness. |
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| Tigger | Nov 21 2014, 11:48 AM Post #68 |
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I'll not disagree with most of what you said there, and you may well be right in saying that there is a sizeable minority of people here who are lazy but I rarely get to see these people except in lurid tabloid headlines and right wing opinion pieces, however what I do see on college visits and on industry recruitment drives is some very able and hard working native born youngsters, most of them have exactly the same naivety and optimism I had at that age! The difference is the opportunities they will have are nothing like the ones presented before me back in the late 70's. In my business experience it has become fashionable to knock our own people, I like you also demand commitment and a degree of self discipline, and I return the favour, tradesmen who communicate in grunts or who are covered in tattoo's and act like juvenile delinquents need to look elsewhere, many other employers have no such scruples and the only thing that matters is the profits, and short term profits especially. Basically what I am trying to say is if we insist on a pile em high sell em cheap, here today gone tomorrow economy we will get a workforce to suit, that's to say a low skilled, transient and demotivated pool of labour, the fact that our productivity is so dire is directly related to all of the above and will not change the self looting nature of many economic activities and ventures is curtailed. |
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| papasmurf | Nov 21 2014, 11:51 AM Post #69 |
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Precisely. |
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| RJD | Nov 21 2014, 11:53 AM Post #70 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I really do not understand how you can claim, in the face of all the supporting evidence, that the UK does have a problem with a largish group that although fit and able are unwilling to work. It is not as if the lack of a work ethic is not the but of jokes across Europe and has been so for a very long time. Me thinks you must live in a cocoon. I have employed many Germans over the years to work in the UK for a year or so and many of these have been amazed how much time their English colleagues waste on social chit chat in the Office. The difference it seems is that the Germans go to work to fulfil a contractual obligation and many Brits think it part of their social calendar. I have not come across any evidence that indicates that other Europeans consider us a hard working lot. |
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| RJD | Nov 21 2014, 11:55 AM Post #71 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Rubbish, the standard cop out, reflect on the appalling productivity levels of UK workers and wonder why this is so and why it has been so continually since WW2. |
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| Deleted User | Nov 21 2014, 01:59 PM Post #72 |
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I have no doubt that you and I will disagree on numerous issues. However I am gratified that when we bother to seriously debate an issue, a rare occurrance on this forum when the tendency is to withdraw to a default position, myself included, or in the case of some posters to never move away from it, at how much common ground we are able to establish. There is little I can find to disagree with in your last post. Establishing common ground is, to me, the sign of a productive debate. |
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| ACH1967 | Nov 21 2014, 02:08 PM Post #73 |
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Dear Tigger I struggle to get my head around your situation. If you cannot keep skilled workers because of the cost of housing isn’t this a problem for your competitors also? If so, how come you and your competitors are still going? If the service you provide is required then can’t you increase your prices to compensate for this? Regards,Andrew. |
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| Boxter | Nov 21 2014, 02:37 PM Post #74 |
Regular Member
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We have heard this from all three dinosaur elitist Londoncentric partries (well two of them anyway) spouting what they MIGHT do IF the EU agrees to their wonder plans to control our out of control swamping problems. Where votes are concerned they will say or do anything but when you sit down and strip what they say down to what it actually means the story invariably changes to something entirely different. They spout this guff but know that its all just their cynical vote grabbing window dressing not even worth listening to. The only way to control immigration and make any of these plans operable is outside the EU. The dinosaurs are just the puppets of their Brussels string pullers so whatever they say is just so much hot air |
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| papasmurf | Nov 21 2014, 03:09 PM Post #75 |
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All what "supporting evidence?" Care to provide it, and I don't mean newspaper or political party propaganda or Iain Duncan Smith's beliefs. |
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| papasmurf | Nov 21 2014, 03:12 PM Post #76 |
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That is easy, where British workers are provided with the latest kit they have World class productivity levels. JCB being an example. |
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| Tigger | Nov 21 2014, 04:59 PM Post #77 |
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Nothing to do with dire management then? You may remember a debate over on the other forum about a certain Japanese car factory run along the same lines as it's owners plants in Japan........................... |
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| Tigger | Nov 21 2014, 05:31 PM Post #78 |
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The core work we do is specialised and we have few serious competitors, we do a lot of sub contract work for PLC construction companies, large factories and offices etc, the job requires certification and factory back up in many cases, mainly for insurance and legal reasons. However the problem is this, we put someone through college and they get their gas or leccy ticket, suddenly companies like British Gas (to name only one) are interested in you, they will pay around £35k which is much less than what we offer, the thing is that money goes a lot further in say North Lincs/Yorkshire or in one case Newcastle than it does in increasingly expensive East Anglia let alone the South East. Worse still is we have seen several people emigrate, Australia used to be popular although I'm told New Zealand and Canada are better options today. In short housing costs are strangling the economy and pricing out the skilled youngsters we must have if the country is going to prosper again. |
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| ACH1967 | Nov 21 2014, 05:57 PM Post #79 |
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So larger companies are in affect getting you to subsidise their training becasue if they snap them up they clearly haven't trained as many as they need. |
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| Tigger | Nov 21 2014, 06:20 PM Post #80 |
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In one way I suppose so, the other option is to only take on youngsters who will inherit property or who have wealthy parents, although that is rather a damning indictment of the sort of country we are creating........... |
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