Scottish Independence

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Scottish Independence
Topic Started: Nov 23 2014, 11:51 AM (768 Views)
morayloon	Nov 23 2014, 11:51 AM Post #1
Junior Member Posts: 171 Group: Members Member #87 Joined: Sep 7, 2014	Independence is still very much on the agenda. The SNP now has over 92.000 members and 12,000 filled the Glasgow Hydro arena yesterday for an SNP rally. Nicola Sturgeon had been on a sell out tour of Scotland, culminating in the massive Glasgow rally. The 45 is truly alive and looking forward to the next test of public opinion on the constitutional question. For those of you who thought the matter was finished with, think again!!!

Replies:
morayloon	Nov 24 2014, 07:55 PM Post #41
Junior Member Posts: 171 Group: Members Member #87 Joined: Sep 7, 2014	gansao Nov 24 2014, 05:28 PM Affa Nov 24 2014, 05:21 PM gansao Nov 24 2014, 02:15 PM Montjoie Nov 24 2014, 02:05 PM Need I remind people that the Scottish didn't vote for the status quo, since devo max was promised to the no voters. Therefore, a future new vote on independence can't be ruled out in the case of Westminster failing to deliver on that promise. That is a very good point because it highlights that the YES/NO campaign actually did become a Dutch auction between Westminster and SNP politicians and one the SNP is keen to continue). However I hope that Westminster does not implement this at the cost of the rest of the UK even if it means another referendum in the near future. It remains to be seen just how much the NO voters were influenced by late promises..my guess is not much but they MAY be influenced by broken ones( and the SNP drum bangers will use this to their advantage) The folly of making promises one finds difficult, if not impossible, to keep. Our PM has made an habit out of it! Indeed and the SNP know it! I suspect that even without the promise of Devo max the Scots still would have voted to stay in the union. We'll never know. However before the vow was made the polls were showing that the gap between No & Yes was closing.



Deleted User	Nov 24 2014, 07:59 PM Post #42
Deleted User	morayloon Nov 24 2014, 07:55 PM gansao Nov 24 2014, 05:28 PM Affa Nov 24 2014, 05:21 PM gansao Nov 24 2014, 02:15 PM Quoting limited to 4 levels deep The folly of making promises one finds difficult, if not impossible, to keep. Our PM has made an habit out of it! Indeed and the SNP know it! I suspect that even without the promise of Devo max the Scots still would have voted to stay in the union. We'll never know. However before the vow was made the polls were showing that the gap between No & Yes was closing. Closing yes but not conclusive. I dont doubt that the promise added to the no vote but without the promises and with a say 53% of the voters voting NO it would have given the SNP less of argument that the NO voters were bribed .
Deleted User


Deleted User	Nov 24 2014, 08:02 PM Post #43
Deleted User	As an aside Morayloon. Do you think that a post Indie SNP government would have been or will be a more socialist one ie committed to reducing the Scottish wealth gap?
Deleted User


morayloon	Nov 25 2014, 11:50 AM Post #44
Junior Member Posts: 171 Group: Members Member #87 Joined: Sep 7, 2014	gansao Nov 24 2014, 07:59 PM Closing yes but not conclusive. I dont doubt that the promise added to the no vote but without the promises and with a say 53% of the voters voting NO it would have given the SNP less of argument that the NO voters were bribed . Alex Salmond has said that the the You Gov Poll which showed Yes in the lead appeared too early, a fortnight before the referendum date. Although the re was a later ICM poll (smaller sample) also showing a lead for Yes, the plan was to be in that position in the final week giving the negativistas little time to come back with anything. As it was, the No's, having realised they were in danger of losing began to play to the 'soft' yes vote - those who would accept the transfer of nore powers. This was a cynical move given that Cameron & co had ensured devo-max would not be an option. Of course, had there been no vow and the negativistas still won, there would be no argument on that score. The Yes movement had become strong by then and however down the SNP was at the loss, the creation of the 45 soon put paid to any disappointment. It really is quite amazing that the parties which lost are riding high, with vastly increased membership. On the other hand, Labour, the main No party, is in turmoil. It is now being badly affected due to their getting in bed with the toxic tories and the fact that a large section of the party supporters did not follow the official line.



morayloon	Nov 25 2014, 12:09 PM Post #45
Junior Member Posts: 171 Group: Members Member #87 Joined: Sep 7, 2014	gansao Nov 24 2014, 08:02 PM As an aside Morayloon. Do you think that a post Indie SNP government would have been or will be a more socialist one ie committed to reducing the Scottish wealth gap? Closing the wealth gap would be a prime goal of an Independent SNP Government. At present it stands Left of Centre on the political spectrum sand I believe it would continue with policies aimed at creating a more equal society. Within its present capabilities the SNP has introduced the 'living wage' of £7.65 for its employees while encouraging private companies and LAs to do the same. The figure is over a £1 above the minimum wage. The 'living wage' is a step in the right direction. The SNP has increased the number of Social Housing being built, including allowing LAs to build council Houses. New Schols have been built and others refurbished. These help protect the building industry and keeps workers in employment, paying taxes rather than being forced to claim benefits. The SNP has put money aside to offset the havoc created by the Bedroom Tax. Zero Hour Contracts would be, as far as possible, outlawed. Funding the NHS would be a priority. Hopefully, a higher rate of tax would be introduced for the rich with tax loopholes closed. It is difficult to envisage just how 'left wing' an SNP govt. would be but its history of running Scotland suggests it will be a lot further left than either the Tories or Labour.



Deleted User	Nov 25 2014, 04:35 PM Post #46
Deleted User	morayloon Nov 25 2014, 11:50 AM gansao Nov 24 2014, 07:59 PM Closing yes but not conclusive. I dont doubt that the promise added to the no vote but without the promises and with a say 53% of the voters voting NO it would have given the SNP less of argument that the NO voters were bribed . Alex Salmond has said that the the You Gov Poll which showed Yes in the lead appeared too early, a fortnight before the referendum date. Although the re was a later ICM poll (smaller sample) also showing a lead for Yes, the plan was to be in that position in the final week giving the negativistas little time to come back with anything. As it was, the No's, having realised they were in danger of losing began to play to the 'soft' yes vote - those who would accept the transfer of nore powers. This was a cynical move given that Cameron & co had ensured devo-max would not be an option. Of course, had there been no vow and the negativistas still won, there would be no argument on that score. The Yes movement had become strong by then and however down the SNP was at the loss, the creation of the 45 soon put paid to any disappointment. It really is quite amazing that the parties which lost are riding high, with vastly increased membership. On the other hand, Labour, the main No party, is in turmoil. It is now being badly affected due to their getting in bed with the toxic tories and the fact that a large section of the party supporters did not follow the official line. I do accept that I am posting from a position of ignorance but I get the feeling that the more astute minds in the SNP realised that if Westminster made the referendum into a bidding war it would fatally flaw their position post referendum in the event of a No vote. The SNP could claim that the No voters were effectively bought, they could hold Westminster to their promise and proclaim that the people of Scotland were duped if they didnt They knew that Westminster would have painted themselves into a corner without addressing the interests of the rest of the UK. From that perspective I believe that the SNP leadership fought a brilliant campaign. Even if they lost the battle they still could win the war
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Deleted User	Nov 25 2014, 04:39 PM Post #47
Deleted User	morayloon Nov 25 2014, 12:09 PM gansao Nov 24 2014, 08:02 PM As an aside Morayloon. Do you think that a post Indie SNP government would have been or will be a more socialist one ie committed to reducing the Scottish wealth gap? Closing the wealth gap would be a prime goal of an Independent SNP Government. At present it stands Left of Centre on the political spectrum sand I believe it would continue with policies aimed at creating a more equal society. Within its present capabilities the SNP has introduced the 'living wage' of £7.65 for its employees while encouraging private companies and LAs to do the same. The figure is over a £1 above the minimum wage. The 'living wage' is a step in the right direction. The SNP has increased the number of Social Housing being built, including allowing LAs to build council Houses. New Schols have been built and others refurbished. These help protect the building industry and keeps workers in employment, paying taxes rather than being forced to claim benefits. The SNP has put money aside to offset the havoc created by the Bedroom Tax. Zero Hour Contracts would be, as far as possible, outlawed. Funding the NHS would be a priority. Hopefully, a higher rate of tax would be introduced for the rich with tax loopholes closed. It is difficult to envisage just how 'left wing' an SNP govt. would be but its history of running Scotland suggests it will be a lot further left than either the Tories or Labour. Thank you Morayloon, that is very interesting and enlightening. I would like to ask for your opinion once more. Do you think that these policies and action are viable for implementation all over the UK or is Scotland able to do this because it is, per capita, wealthier than the rest of the UK?
Deleted User


marybrown	Nov 25 2014, 04:40 PM Post #48
Senior Member Posts: 10,516 Group: Members Member #60 Joined: Jul 27, 2014	Is Nicola Sturgeon..the Scottish Frau Merkel???



AndyK	Nov 25 2014, 04:47 PM Post #49
Senior Member Posts: 2,474 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: Aug 11, 2014	morayloon Nov 24 2014, 07:51 PM Steve K Nov 24 2014, 02:15 PM Montjoie Nov 24 2014, 02:05 PM Need I remind people that the Scottish didn't vote for the status quo, since devo max was promised to the no voters. Therefore, a future new vote on independence can't be ruled out in the case of Westminster failing to deliver on that promise. Yep And they should get another vote in say 10 years anyway. As long as there is a significant element of Scotland that wants independence then a vote should be held at least once a generation. We will have another vote in three or four years time if we return a majority SNP govt in 2016 and if the UK votes to come out of Europe whilst the Scots vote to remain. Why would a nationalist Scotland vote to remain in the EU ? Kind of defeats the object, doesn't it?



avagrumble	Nov 26 2014, 01:02 PM Post #50
Regular Member Posts: 364 Group: Members Member #86 Joined: Sep 7, 2014	When it was first muted having a referendum on Scottish independance I was really hoping they would'nt get it, that we would all stay together as one. Now I have changed my mind, because what this government are giving Scotland to try to pacify them into forgetting independance is tantermount to them virtually having their independance but being subsidised by England. Their NHS hospitals are all free car parking, their presciptions are all free, their universities are vastly cheaper than Englands and now they are advocating they can keep the own income tax. Whereas England meanwhile is being systematically concreted over to house foreign people and giving them handouts left right and centre, where the money is coming from for this is anyones guess. It certainly isnt coming from Scotland.



marybrown	Nov 26 2014, 01:39 PM Post #51
Senior Member Posts: 10,516 Group: Members Member #60 Joined: Jul 27, 2014	We should have a referendum whether we want them to stay in the Union... That'd put the willies up em!



RJD	Nov 26 2014, 04:56 PM Post #52
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Montjoie Nov 24 2014, 02:05 PM Need I remind people that the Scottish didn't vote for the status quo, since devo max was promised to the no voters. Therefore, a future new vote on independence can't be ruled out in the case of Westminster failing to deliver on that promise. There is a good chance that the Politicians will not deliver. Labour are terrified because the price to be paid is a solution to the Mid Lothian question.



RJD	Nov 26 2014, 04:57 PM Post #53
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	marybrown Nov 26 2014, 01:39 PM We should have a referendum whether we want them to stay in the Union... That'd put the willies up em! I suspect they would be told where to find a bike.



Alberich	Nov 27 2014, 01:57 PM Post #54
Alberich Posts: 1,695 Group: Members Member #8 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Nov 26 2014, 04:56 PM Montjoie Nov 24 2014, 02:05 PM Need I remind people that the Scottish didn't vote for the status quo, since devo max was promised to the no voters. Therefore, a future new vote on independence can't be ruled out in the case of Westminster failing to deliver on that promise. There is a good chance that the Politicians will not deliver. Labour are terrified because the price to be paid is a solution to the Mid Lothian question. But that's the point, RJD. In a just world, the West Lothian question would be decided alongside the devolving of yet more powers to the Scottish parliament, yet in all the reports I have read of the additional powers to be handed over, there is no mention of this. It seems that come the New Year we will be paying the Scots yet more Danegeld in the form of additional power, while continuing to accept the gross injustice of having the same old cabal of Scottish MPs descending from the Highlands every five years to prop up new/same old Labour. How much longer can this question be ignored, one wonders? If we MUST continue to have Scottish members, then it would not be unreasonable in the circumstances to reduce their numbers somewhat. Their interests could well be served by sending the same number of Scottish MPs to Westminster as they do to the European parliament???



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