Look I want to be clear about this

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Look I want to be clear about this
Topic Started: Dec 12 2014, 08:15 AM (531 Views)
RJD	Dec 12 2014, 08:15 AM Post #1
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Quote: “Look,” he said, in answer to a question about borrowing. “I want to be sort of clear about this…” Siource: Milli Quote: I Want to Be Sort Of Clear About This. He could make that the title of his memoirs and clarity might come, I say might, but only after the GE. So vote Labour if you like a big gamble.



Affa	Dec 12 2014, 09:33 AM Post #2
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Yeah; when does a pledge, a promise, become an aim, an ambition, a wish? Words eh; empty as the vessels that that spills them.



Pro Veritas	Dec 12 2014, 09:43 AM Post #3
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Cameron's pledge to cut immigration comes to mind. As does Osborne's pledge to crack down of industrial scale tax-evasion and tax-avoidance. All The Best



RJD	Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Post #4
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 12 2014, 09:43 AM Cameron's pledge to cut immigration comes to mind. As does Osborne's pledge to crack down of industrial scale tax-evasion and tax-avoidance. All The Best Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them.



Affa	Dec 12 2014, 05:45 PM Post #5
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	RJD Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them. It is a legitimate criticism with no hypocrisy when that projected balanced target is so widely missed, and especially in respect of that target being the focal point of the Conservative 2010 election campaign. They were elected based on a false promise, and deserve to be ousted for their failure! Edited by Affa, Dec 12 2014, 05:46 PM.



Steve K	Dec 12 2014, 08:45 PM Post #6
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Pro Veritas Dec 12 2014, 09:43 AM Cameron's pledge to cut immigration comes to mind. As does Osborne's pledge to crack down of industrial scale tax-evasion and tax-avoidance. All The Best Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them. No you remember that you thought he made that pledge Interesting read from 2012



Affa	Dec 12 2014, 09:13 PM Post #7
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 12 2014, 08:45 PM No you remember that you thought he made that pledge "It's the thought that counts". What was thought is what we (voters) were expected to think. A balanced economy in under five years.



Steve K	Dec 12 2014, 09:58 PM Post #8
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 12 2014, 09:13 PM Steve K Dec 12 2014, 08:45 PM No you remember that you thought he made that pledge "It's the thought that counts". What was thought is what we (voters) were expected to think. A balanced economy in under five years. Almost a debate in itself. Are politicians responsible for what people imagine they said? Is a car dealer responsible if a car doesn't actually look as good outside your house as you imagined it would when you saw it in the showroom? IMHO no but I figure I'm in the minority judging from the litany of "politicians lied" posts we get here that on examination turn out that they didn't. Hell have no fury like a voter with a bad memory?



Affa	Dec 12 2014, 10:59 PM Post #9
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 12 2014, 09:58 PM Affa Dec 12 2014, 09:13 PM Steve K Dec 12 2014, 08:45 PM No you remember that you thought he made that pledge "It's the thought that counts". What was thought is what we (voters) were expected to think. A balanced economy in under five years. Almost a debate in itself. Are politicians responsible for what people imagine they said? Is a car dealer responsible if a car doesn't actually look as good outside your house as you imagined it would when you saw it in the showroom? IMHO no but I figure I'm in the minority judging from the litany of "politicians lied" posts we get here that on examination turn out that they didn't. Hell have no fury like a voter with a bad memory? Steve; It isn't a debate about what was or was not said. It is about the message, and there is no confusion at all about what that was. The message was that the Conservatives would deliver a balanced economy in one Parliament, and that the Labour position (plan) to halve the deficit in one term was too slow ...... this was their central point pre-election, a bid to attract voters with the promise to be speedy. Pedantry, spin, or whatever aside it was the intention to convey 'the thought' even if the wording was ambiguous. You do yourself no credit if you cannot accept this, and remain trying to insist that it is the listener's fault if they 'got the wrong message'.



Steve K	Dec 12 2014, 11:14 PM Post #10
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 12 2014, 10:59 PM Steve K Dec 12 2014, 09:58 PM Affa Dec 12 2014, 09:13 PM Steve K Dec 12 2014, 08:45 PM No you remember that you thought he made that pledge "It's the thought that counts". What was thought is what we (voters) were expected to think. A balanced economy in under five years. Almost a debate in itself. Are politicians responsible for what people imagine they said? Is a car dealer responsible if a car doesn't actually look as good outside your house as you imagined it would when you saw it in the showroom? IMHO no but I figure I'm in the minority judging from the litany of "politicians lied" posts we get here that on examination turn out that they didn't. Hell have no fury like a voter with a bad memory? Steve; It isn't a debate about what was or was not said. It is about the message, and there is no confusion at all about what that was. The message was that the Conservatives would deliver a balanced economy in one Parliament, and that the Labour position (plan) to halve the deficit in one term was too slow ...... this was their central point pre-election, a bid to attract voters with the promise to be speedy. Pedantry, spin, or whatever aside it was the intention to convey 'the thought' even if the wording was ambiguous. You do yourself no credit if you cannot accept this, and remain trying to insist that it is the listener's fault if they 'got the wrong message'. Go on then post up a link to that specific promise. Would be strange though to find such when neither the Conservative manifesto or Coalition agreement made any such promise. Both promised REDUCTION of the deficit. "We will significantly accelerate the reduction of the structural deficit over the course of a Parliament, with the main burden of deficit reduction borne by reduced spending rather than increased taxes" That ain't elimination now is it? That he later said in his first budget that he thought he was on track for better wasn't a promise and wasn't a lie unless you can show he knew he wasn't on track As I said, some people have strange memories and will blame anyone when those memories are shown to not actually be 100% on the ball.



Tytoalba	Dec 12 2014, 11:33 PM Post #11
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Affa Dec 12 2014, 09:33 AM Yeah; when does a pledge, a promise, become an aim, an ambition, a wish? Words eh; empty as the vessels that that spills them. You forgot 'Aspiration'. achievable, realistic, highly improbable, or not. No government is in charge of its destiny , for events will make fools of them all. Always remember that they are composed of people just like you and I



Marconi	Dec 13 2014, 02:46 AM Post #12
Regular Member Posts: 775 Group: Members Member #37 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	RJD Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them. I too believed that in 2010 the Conservatives promised that they will cut the deficit within one term. But this is what was actually stated : • Aim to eliminate "the bulk" of the UK's structural deficit within five years. • Spending cuts in all areas apart from health and foreign aid. But I could have sworn that Osborne had stated the former promise. So 1 of 2 things have happened. • George asked Google to remove all references of the promise on Google. • The Tory's use subliminal messages. No one can voodoo the voodoo they do.



Heinrich	Dec 13 2014, 03:44 AM Post #13
Regular Guy Posts: 2,920 Group: Members Member #51 Joined: Jul 22, 2014	Say what you like about them but at least the Tories keep all their promises.



Steve K	Dec 13 2014, 03:15 PM Post #14
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Marconi Dec 13 2014, 02:46 AM RJD Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them. I too believed that in 2010 the Conservatives promised that they will cut the deficit within one term. But this is what was actually stated : • Aim to eliminate "the bulk" of the UK's structural deficit within five years. • Spending cuts in all areas apart from health and foreign aid. But I could have sworn that Osborne had stated the former promise. So 1 of 2 things have happened. • George asked Google to remove all references of the promise on Google. • The Tory's use subliminal messages. No one can voodoo the voodoo they do. Well he couldn't have got Google to edit the copies of the manifestoes and coalition agreements I downloaded in 2010. And they match your quote of them He did say same year that he expected to clear the deficit by 2015-16. He clearly won't but so what? I once said I expected to work til I was 65 and now I won't - doesn't make me a liar. Sadly what you have seen is an appalling effect of the internet age. People twist what others say and are able to have that seen all round the world in minutes. Even blogs in so called respected newspapers do it and those that for whatever reason dislike the victim lap it up without challenge and worse repeat it as fact. To quote Jackson: "the lie becomes the truth" I don't like Osborne one little bit, he's an odious self serving little shit probably not quite as bad as May and a tad better than IDS as at least he's got a brain. But even my worst enemy should be defended from attack using false instrument so every time they are (and some here use false instrument to attack every politician) then I will show up who is actually being less than honest.



RJD	Dec 13 2014, 03:45 PM Post #15
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Whatever was said I could have forgiven him if there was sound reasons to moderate or he was on the way but not quite there, but he is not halfway yet. No matter what Affa says the left are a bunch of hypocrites as they condemn for not meeting his own targets, but fail to congratulate for meeting theirs. Anyway the left don't give a Monkey's about the deficit so why are they banging on? Forgot it's the Tribal Drum!



RJD	Dec 13 2014, 03:46 PM Post #16
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Heinrich Dec 13 2014, 03:44 AM Say what you like about them but at least the Tories keep all their promises. Unlike Labour you mean?



Marconi	Dec 13 2014, 03:55 PM Post #17
Regular Member Posts: 775 Group: Members Member #37 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Steve K Dec 13 2014, 03:15 PM Marconi Dec 13 2014, 02:46 AM RJD Dec 12 2014, 12:08 PM Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise and delivered what the left demanded the hypocrites accuse him of missing his debt targets. Bloody Politicians it is understandable why we do not and should not trust them. I too believed that in 2010 the Conservatives promised that they will cut the deficit within one term. But this is what was actually stated : • Aim to eliminate "the bulk" of the UK's structural deficit within five years. • Spending cuts in all areas apart from health and foreign aid. But I could have sworn that Osborne had stated the former promise. So 1 of 2 things have happened. • George asked Google to remove all references of the promise on Google. • The Tory's use subliminal messages. No one can voodoo the voodoo they do. Well he couldn't have got Google to edit the copies of the manifestoes and coalition agreements I downloaded in 2010. And they match your quote of them He did say same year that he expected to clear the deficit by 2015-16. He clearly won't but so what? I once said I expected to work til I was 65 and now I won't - doesn't make me a liar. Sadly what you have seen is an appalling effect of the internet age. People twist what others say and are able to have that seen all round the world in minutes. Even blogs in so called respected newspapers do it and those that for whatever reason dislike the victim lap it up without challenge and worse repeat it as fact. To quote Jackson: "the lie becomes the truth" I don't like Osborne one little bit, he's an odious self serving little shit probably not quite as bad as May and a tad better than IDS as at least he's got a brain. But even my worst enemy should be defended from attack using false instrument so every time they are (and some here use false instrument to attack every politician) then I will show up who is actually being less than honest. Very true. I had my tongue firmly in cheek with the Google reference and subliminal messages thing because I was trying to make the point (not very well) that the dishonesty was in my own brain and it had given me a message that wasn't actually said in reality. The very odd thing is that many others also had the same thought. So was there some kind of double-talk by Osborne along the way for so many people to get a message wrong? Or just one of those bizarre things.



RJD	Dec 13 2014, 04:02 PM Post #18
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	I think Osborne learned his craft via studying Gordon Brown the master of the half truth or was it the half lie?



Affa	Dec 13 2014, 06:57 PM Post #19
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 13 2014, 03:15 PM But even my worst enemy should be defended from attack using false instrument so every time they are (and some here use false instrument to attack every politician) then I will show up who is actually being less than honest. But it isn't false to assert that the Chancellor declared he would balance the budget in a single term! It is not false to say he has failed to do so.



Affa	Dec 13 2014, 07:18 PM Post #20
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	"Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm I began by asserting that "it is the thought that counts", the idea, thought, that the message sends to those listening. That nobody I know of, and I do include those here now attempting to deny it, "thought" differently, the Chancellor had stated he would balance the budget in one term ........ I will go further. He altered his objective and made the statement that he was on target to balance the books in four years. What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. Edited by Affa, Dec 13 2014, 07:26 PM.



Steve K	Dec 13 2014, 10:21 PM Post #21
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 13 2014, 06:57 PM Steve K Dec 13 2014, 03:15 PM But even my worst enemy should be defended from attack using false instrument so every time they are (and some here use false instrument to attack every politician) then I will show up who is actually being less than honest. But it isn't false to assert that the Chancellor declared he would balance the budget in a single term! It is not false to say he has failed to do so. Go on then post a link to back that he so declared



Affa	Dec 14 2014, 12:45 PM Post #22
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 13 2014, 10:21 PM Affa Dec 13 2014, 06:57 PM Steve K Dec 13 2014, 03:15 PM But even my worst enemy should be defended from attack using false instrument so every time they are (and some here use false instrument to attack every politician) then I will show up who is actually being less than honest. But it isn't false to assert that the Chancellor declared he would balance the budget in a single term! It is not false to say he has failed to do so. Go on then post a link to back that he so declared You here reply to post 19 with a request. I assume you have read post 20 and now retreat from your previous position.



Affa	Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM Post #23
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". Edited by Affa, Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM.



Steve K	Dec 14 2014, 05:40 PM Post #24
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". So? Do you really need someone to explain to you that "to set a course" is not a promise to be able to follow that course if the unexpected is encountered? What you are quoting from is what I was referring to: the June 2010 emergency budget where Osborne made it very very clear he was talking about a forecast and not a promise Quote: I can confirm that, on the basis of the measures to be announced in this Budget, the judgment of the OBR, which we published today, is that we are on track to meet those goals. Indeed, I can tell the House that, because we have taken a cautious approach, we are set to meet them one year earlier, in 2014-15. To put it another way, we are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. Had you actually looked at that OBR forecastthen you'd see it was predicated on the World coming out of recession much earlier and much stronger than it did so that we would have an export led recovery as early as 2011. Well the Euro-zone and a few other basket cases made that forecast history didn't it. But it was only a course and a forecast.



RJD	Dec 14 2014, 06:02 PM Post #25
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Dec 14 2014, 05:40 PM Affa Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". So? Do you really need someone to explain to you that "to set a course" is not a promise to be able to follow that course if the unexpected is encountered? What you are quoting from is what I was referring to: the June 2010 emergency budget where Osborne made it very very clear he was talking about a forecast and not a promise Quote: I can confirm that, on the basis of the measures to be announced in this Budget, the judgment of the OBR, which we published today, is that we are on track to meet those goals. Indeed, I can tell the House that, because we have taken a cautious approach, we are set to meet them one year earlier, in 2014-15. To put it another way, we are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. Had you actually looked at that OBR forecastthen you'd see it was predicated on the World coming out of recession much earlier and much stronger than it did so that we would have an export led recovery as early as 2011. Well the Euro-zone and a few other basket cases made that forecast history didn't it. But it was only a course and a forecast. Yeah OK but! He did not miss it by a yard but a country mile. It was obvious 2 years ago that Osborne did not want to enter the GE with the message "Job Done" as that would be a green light for Labour to promise what they always love to promise, namely more spending. Now Milli says he will be a better cutter of cloth.



Rich	Dec 14 2014, 09:51 PM Post #26
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	RJD Dec 14 2014, 06:02 PM Steve K Dec 14 2014, 05:40 PM Affa Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". So? Do you really need someone to explain to you that "to set a course" is not a promise to be able to follow that course if the unexpected is encountered? What you are quoting from is what I was referring to: the June 2010 emergency budget where Osborne made it very very clear he was talking about a forecast and not a promise Quote: I can confirm that, on the basis of the measures to be announced in this Budget, the judgment of the OBR, which we published today, is that we are on track to meet those goals. Indeed, I can tell the House that, because we have taken a cautious approach, we are set to meet them one year earlier, in 2014-15. To put it another way, we are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. Had you actually looked at that OBR forecastthen you'd see it was predicated on the World coming out of recession much earlier and much stronger than it did so that we would have an export led recovery as early as 2011. Well the Euro-zone and a few other basket cases made that forecast history didn't it. But it was only a course and a forecast. Yeah OK but! He did not miss it by a yard but a country mile. It was obvious 2 years ago that Osborne did not want to enter the GE with the message "Job Done" as that would be a green light for Labour to promise what they always love to promise, namely more spending. Now Milli says he will be a better cutter of cloth. Millibore is not capable of cutting a sideways glance, Balls could not even work out how to use an abacus, to cut to the quick, Labour and financial prudence, is an oxymoron.



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 12:04 AM Post #27
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 14 2014, 05:40 PM Affa Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". So? Do you really need someone to explain to you that "to set a course" is not a promise to be able to follow that course if the unexpected is encountered? What you are quoting from is what I was referring to: the June 2010 emergency budget where Osborne made it very very clear he was talking about a forecast and not a promise Quote: I can confirm that, on the basis of the measures to be announced in this Budget, the judgment of the OBR, which we published today, is that we are on track to meet those goals. Indeed, I can tell the House that, because we have taken a cautious approach, we are set to meet them one year earlier, in 2014-15. To put it another way, we are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. Had you actually looked at that OBR forecastthen you'd see it was predicated on the World coming out of recession much earlier and much stronger than it did so that we would have an export led recovery as early as 2011. Well the Euro-zone and a few other basket cases made that forecast history didn't it. But it was only a course and a forecast. "it's the thought that counts"! and I doubt there is anyone here that did not think the Chancellor was claiming to balance the budget in one term, not even you Steve. I have called this 'escapism' for what is ....... spin. Edited by Affa, Dec 15 2014, 12:05 AM.



Rich	Dec 15 2014, 12:07 AM Post #28
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Affa Dec 15 2014, 12:04 AM Steve K Dec 14 2014, 05:40 PM Affa Dec 14 2014, 01:39 PM What we have just experienced (I address it to Marconi in particular) is the dark art of spin and deception ........ neither paying heed to the truth though both profess to be bound by the facts. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm100622/debtext/100622-0007.htm "Today we take decisive action to deal with the debts that we inherited, and confront the greatest economic risk facing our country. We have been tough, but we have also been fair. We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling national debt by the end of this Parliament". So? Do you really need someone to explain to you that "to set a course" is not a promise to be able to follow that course if the unexpected is encountered? What you are quoting from is what I was referring to: the June 2010 emergency budget where Osborne made it very very clear he was talking about a forecast and not a promise Quote: I can confirm that, on the basis of the measures to be announced in this Budget, the judgment of the OBR, which we published today, is that we are on track to meet those goals. Indeed, I can tell the House that, because we have taken a cautious approach, we are set to meet them one year earlier, in 2014-15. To put it another way, we are on track to have debt falling and a balanced structural current budget by the end of this Parliament. Had you actually looked at that OBR forecastthen you'd see it was predicated on the World coming out of recession much earlier and much stronger than it did so that we would have an export led recovery as early as 2011. Well the Euro-zone and a few other basket cases made that forecast history didn't it. But it was only a course and a forecast. "it's the thought that counts"! and I doubt there is anyone here that did not think the Chancellor was claiming to balance the budget in one term, not even you Steve. I have called this 'escapism' for what is ....... spin. What's that I hear?....Spin, from a politician?.......well, I never did.



Heinrich	Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM Post #29
Regular Guy Posts: 2,920 Group: Members Member #51 Joined: Jul 22, 2014	RJD Dec 13 2014, 03:46 PM Heinrich Dec 13 2014, 03:44 AM Say what you like about them but at least the Tories keep all their promises. Unlike Labour you mean? Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed.



RJD	Dec 15 2014, 01:28 PM Post #30
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Heinrich Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM RJD Dec 13 2014, 03:46 PM Heinrich Dec 13 2014, 03:44 AM Say what you like about them but at least the Tories keep all their promises. Unlike Labour you mean? Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed. I could use the Labour metric that less means more.



papasmurf	Dec 15 2014, 01:33 PM Post #31
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Heinrich Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed. Immigration down to the tens of thousands? Big fail.



Steve K	Dec 15 2014, 02:25 PM Post #32
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 15 2014, 01:33 PM Heinrich Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed. Immigration down to the tens of thousands? Big fail. Got to be careful with that. The Tory Manifesto said this Quote: So we will take steps to take net migration back to the levels of the 1990s – tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of thousands. Only actually a promise to "take steps" - which they did And of course that was a promise for a Conservative government and we actually elected a Coalition government and they promised something more specific but actually less in terms of total figures Quote: We will introduce an annual limit on the number of non-EU economic migrants admitted into the UK to live and work. We will consider jointly the mechanism for implementing the limit. • We will end the detention of children for immigration purposes. • We will create a dedicated Border Police Force, as part of a refocused Serious Organised Crime Agency, to enhance national security, improve immigration controls and crack down on the trafficking of people, weapons and drugs. We will work with police forces to strengthen arrangements to deal with serious crime and other cross-boundary policing challenges, and extend collaboration between forces to deliver better value for money. • We support E-borders and will reintroduce exit checks. • We will apply transitional controls as a matter of course in the future for all new EU Member States. • We will introduce new measures to minimise abuse of the immigration system, for example via student routes, and will tackle human trafficking as a priority. • We will explore new ways to improve the current asylum system to speed up the processing of applications. And before anyone says Cameron promised in January 2010 to limit it you'll find that he promised a Conservative government would limit it. We didn't get a Conservative government. The big failure on migration has been EU migration and on that they were tied to what Labour had agreed and what the Libs would let them do. Hardly a commendable performance by the dislikeable Teresa May and the government in general but M'Lud I say not actually guilty. Try looking at Recall Elections if you want a clear failure.



RJD	Dec 15 2014, 03:24 PM Post #33
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Best not to promise what you cannot deliver, that said nobody back in 2010 would have predicted that the EZ would get stuck permanently in the sh1t.



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 03:28 PM Post #34
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 15 2014, 02:25 PM papasmurf Dec 15 2014, 01:33 PM Heinrich Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed. Immigration down to the tens of thousands? Big fail. Got to be careful with that. The Tory Manifesto said this Quote: So we will take steps to take net migration back to the levels of the 1990s – tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of thousands. Only actually a promise to "take steps" - which they did "So we will take steps to take net migration back to the levels of the 1990s" You here accept that "we will" constitutes a an intention, but dismiss "to take migration back to 1990's" as not being the intention, but more a "ambition". 'Taking steps' by your reasoning is enough to qualify ANY manifesto pledge as being upheld if all that is required is to make an effort of some magnitude. In other words a worthless document! You defended Osborne because you felt he was wrongly being blamed for failure ..... we begin to see the real reason.



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 03:29 PM Post #35
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	RJD Dec 15 2014, 03:24 PM Best not to promise what you cannot deliver, that said nobody back in 2010 would have predicted that the EZ would get stuck permanently in the sh1t. Why? Are you maintaining that austerity measures do not curtail growth in the economy?



Steve K	Dec 15 2014, 05:11 PM Post #36
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 15 2014, 03:28 PM Steve K Dec 15 2014, 02:25 PM papasmurf Dec 15 2014, 01:33 PM Heinrich Dec 15 2014, 03:25 AM Right you cannot name a single Tory Manifesto goal that was not reached and surpassed. Immigration down to the tens of thousands? Big fail. Got to be careful with that. The Tory Manifesto said this Quote: So we will take steps to take net migration back to the levels of the 1990s – tens of thousands a year, not hundreds of thousands. Only actually a promise to "take steps" - which they did "So we will take steps to take net migration back to the levels of the 1990s" You here accept that "we will" constitutes a an intention, but dismiss "to take migration back to 1990's" as not being the intention, but more a "ambition". 'Taking steps' by your reasoning is enough to qualify ANY manifesto pledge as being upheld if all that is required is to make an effort of some magnitude. In other words a worthless document! You defended Osborne because you felt he was wrongly being blamed for failure ..... we begin to see the real reason. Look Affa if you want to make personal insinuations take it to the dungeon where you will get repaid in kind. This all started from this being posted "Do I remember correctly wasn't Osborne going to cut out the deficit within a single Parliamentary term and didn't the left scream from the rooftops? Now he reneged on his promise . ." The poster has agreed that that was wrong and Osborne did not just go and break a promise which would be a very foul act indeed. You have continued to post along the line that an expectation someone assumes is the same as a promise, it isn't. It now seems it offends you that someone might actually care about the truth and not want to see attack by false instrument. I did not as you falsely say, defend Osborne for being a failure, if you had cared to look I called him "an odious self serving little shit probably not quite as bad as May" but I will point out when even my worst enemy is being falsely attacked. Last time I looked this was UKDebate not UKMud-Slingers As for whether Osborne is a failure I'd say the jury is out. He set a middle course between Labours mythaconomics and RJD's wish to have seen savage cuts that IMHO would have killed the golden cow - and quite possibly led to widespread social breakdown. He was unlucky in 2010-12, lucky in 2013 and 2014 isn't looking too clever. He has certainly failed to sell his approach to the majority and imho failed to refocus taxation and develop proper solutions to low pay. Despite what some say he has done more than any other chancellor to address the tax gap. I'd mark him 5 out of 10.



RJD	Dec 15 2014, 05:21 PM Post #37
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 15 2014, 03:29 PM RJD Dec 15 2014, 03:24 PM Best not to promise what you cannot deliver, that said nobody back in 2010 would have predicted that the EZ would get stuck permanently in the sh1t. Why? Are you maintaining that austerity measures do not curtail growth in the economy? Never maintained such. I wish to curtail that growth that is based on current consumption paid for by borrowing as it has no benefit to the countries long term economic future. It fixes nothing. If you really do wish to see a rebalance away from consumption, which perhaps you do not, then continuing to borrow to finance an unaffordable Public Sector is going in the wrong direction. Maybe you are happy to continue to borrow and spend this on an inefficient Public Sector?



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 05:49 PM Post #38
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Steve K Dec 15 2014, 05:11 PM As for whether Osborne is a failure I'd say the jury is out. He set a middle course between Labours mythaconomics and RJD's wish to have seen savage cuts ......... Why the term 'myth'? I am of the opinion that A Darling knew better than most what was required, and was set to do so. It was staging for pre-election that had the right condemning his projections, not any conclusive analysis. I do see the merit of your defence of the Chancellor (the lifting of tax threshold being claimed by Liberals, btw). My own take has been expressed before. Briefly - the austerity rout is the ideological impulse, to cut government spending and keep taxes low. The balance he had to make was to avoid a double-dip, triple-dip recession, so the consequence of which was to go against the RJD extreme. The cuts were as deep as he dare! This implies that the Chancellor knew all along that his plan would harm the recovery, that GDP would suffer. Latterly, leading up to the next GE he couldn't permit this flatlined economy to remain. His future as Chancellor rests on having some good news to boast of .. and so the needed investment was made. I've simplified it, and give as much if not more credit to the man's ability and cleverness than perhaps you do. My gripe is that everything he has done has been PARTY political, both in ideology terms and in objectives. The country has not benefited at all as could have. One last supposition - had A Darling's approach been stuck to the economy would have grown to where it is now in two years, and begun to stall (not to say become flat). The deficit would be were it is now, and falling (not growing), but the most important thing is that revenues would have been far higher, both as a result of GDP actually adding wealth. and incomes/wages less restrained. Whether a tax hike was planned I know not, but it would not have surprised me. All-in-all I reckon Darling was on course to do a much better job. I do not have the same confidence in E Ball.



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 05:54 PM Post #39
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	RJD Dec 15 2014, 05:21 PM Affa Dec 15 2014, 03:29 PM RJD Dec 15 2014, 03:24 PM Best not to promise what you cannot deliver, that said nobody back in 2010 would have predicted that the EZ would get stuck permanently in the sh1t. Why? Are you maintaining that austerity measures do not curtail growth in the economy? Never maintained such. I wish to curtail that growth that is based on current consumption paid for by borrowing as it has no benefit to the countries long term economic future. It fixes nothing. If you really do wish to see a rebalance away from consumption, which perhaps you do not, then continuing to borrow to finance an unaffordable Public Sector is going in the wrong direction. Maybe you are happy to continue to borrow and spend this on an inefficient Public Sector? My bag is to have affordable public services. Your entire thinking is based on the conviction that public services are not affordable (irrespective of what level they are made at). To my end, having the objective of affordability, the focus turns to expansion - yours to shrinking. to being minimalist. That is where are differences lie ........ and I do not resort to labels or soundbites to get the message across as you do. Edited by Affa, Dec 15 2014, 05:58 PM.



Affa	Dec 15 2014, 06:15 PM Post #40
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Affa Dec 15 2014, 05:49 PM I've simplified it, and give as much if not more credit to the man's ability and cleverness than perhaps you do. My gripe is that everything he has done has been PARTY political, both in ideology terms and in objectives. The country has not benefited at all as could have. Breaking the rules again ....... replying to my own post. But to add that include in this appraisal of the talents of George Osborne the sleight of hand tricks he pulled off to avoid (until now) missing his borrowing targets. These include transfers (eg from the BoE to the Treasury), under spending (a euphemism for delaying paying the bills), Privatisation of (parts) public services, and accounting. He is on record as being a big admirer of AL Blair ....... he learnt well.



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