Want a job? Get skills

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Want a job? Get skills
Topic Started: Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM (1,473 Views)
RJD	Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Post #1
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Quote: In effect, industry in the UK is going to need 750,000 additional digitally-skilled workers by 2017. What’s worrying is that we don’t appear to have the people to fill these positions. Almost 60 per cent of employers say they are already facing a skills shortage. Quote: Microsoft last year reported that there were 100,000 unfilled vacancies in its partner companies across the UK. In the current environment, where we are concerned about unemployment and low wage growth, this seems mad. A recent survey by O2, meanwhile, revealed a “disturbing disconnect” between employers’ requirements and the careers parents would encourage their children to pursue. Almost a quarter said digital skills are irrelevant to the future success of their children. Skills shortage There has been a disconnect for a long time now with young people ignoring trade skills and University courses in difficult technology subjects as a consequence there has been a shortage of such people throughout the recent recession, now we are back to growth the situation is worse. We need to encourage not discourage young people to study and train in technologies. Yes Employers can always do more, but if the interest is not there then this will be to no avail. Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. It is a tough competitive World and no Gov. is going to come along and solve their personal difficulties, as the man said "on yer bike".

Replies:
Pro Veritas	Dec 15 2014, 09:54 PM Post #41
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Quote: In effect, industry in the UK is going to need 750,000 additional digitally-skilled workers by 2017. What’s worrying is that we don’t appear to have the people to fill these positions. Almost 60 per cent of employers say they are already facing a skills shortage. Quote: Microsoft last year reported that there were 100,000 unfilled vacancies in its partner companies across the UK. In the current environment, where we are concerned about unemployment and low wage growth, this seems mad. A recent survey by O2, meanwhile, revealed a “disturbing disconnect” between employers’ requirements and the careers parents would encourage their children to pursue. Almost a quarter said digital skills are irrelevant to the future success of their children. Skills shortage There has been a disconnect for a long time now with young people ignoring trade skills and University courses in difficult technology subjects as a consequence there has been a shortage of such people throughout the recent recession, now we are back to growth the situation is worse. We need to encourage not discourage young people to study and train in technologies. Yes Employers can always do more, but if the interest is not there then this will be to no avail. Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. It is a tough competitive World and no Gov. is going to come along and solve their personal difficulties, as the man said "on yer bike". Of course, if Microsoft is genuinely concerned about there being a shortfall of 100,000 digitally skilled workers the obvious thing for Microsoft to do is to lower the cost of their accredited technician scheme, so that more people can afford to skill-up. Which, by the way, is what MUST happen if you believe - like you do - that "the market" finds the appropriate value of any given commodity. If there are not enough people buying the training Microsoft is offering at the current price it means it is overpriced. Or was that too simple and obvious a solution for you, and them? All The Best



Pro Veritas	Dec 15 2014, 10:08 PM Post #42
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	And, of course, Microsoft see no benefit to themselves by announcing that 100,000 people need to take advantage of training that they are a principal provider of? All The Best



Tigger	Dec 15 2014, 10:11 PM Post #43
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Rich Dec 15 2014, 08:53 PM Tigger Dec 15 2014, 08:51 PM Rich Dec 15 2014, 08:39 PM Tigger Dec 15 2014, 10:09 AM Quoting limited to 4 levels deep750,000 additional digitally-skilled workers by 2017disturbing disconnect” between employers’ requirements and the careers parents would encourage their children to pursue. Almost a quarter said digital skills are irrelevant to the future success of their childrenSkills shortage I do believe that a certain Mr Blair, on attaining office proclaiomed that education x3 was to be his most important task and that he wanted a computer in every home and all students to be able to enter university, nothing then and nothing in the 13 year miserable reign of labour was ever mentioned regarding those types of students that were not suited to academia and would rather have left school aged 15 and have been offered an apprenticeship in either the engineering or construction industry. Sorry Rich but my eldest son benefited from the expansion of university places and is set to become the first member of the family to have the prefix "Dr" in front of his name, it's just a shame he could not afford to pay £1200 a month for a damp bungalow in Kent owned by a former postman, it's also a shame that he could not stay here and advance his career because his employer was only interested in yearly contracts and stealing his pension contributions. Still Britain's loss is Germany's gain, you pay peanuts and turn out monkeys for the boom and bust economy and that is what happens, and until that structural change happens nothing else will alter. Do not be sorry, just read my post correctly within it's context, good luck to your son for gaining his honours and well done too, but that type of education (higher) does not suit EVERYONE.............got it now? Employers need to step up to the plate, not the government. Vocational training is just that, vocational. If employers just expect the government to churn out suitable workers, and I sadly suspect many will, for them at little or no cost to themselves they'll be disappointed, just like they were when Blair expanded university education. And I found that out the hard way.



Tigger	Dec 15 2014, 10:13 PM Post #44
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 15 2014, 09:54 PM RJD Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Quote: In effect, industry in the UK is going to need 750,000 additional digitally-skilled workers by 2017. What’s worrying is that we don’t appear to have the people to fill these positions. Almost 60 per cent of employers say they are already facing a skills shortage. Quote: Microsoft last year reported that there were 100,000 unfilled vacancies in its partner companies across the UK. In the current environment, where we are concerned about unemployment and low wage growth, this seems mad. A recent survey by O2, meanwhile, revealed a “disturbing disconnect” between employers’ requirements and the careers parents would encourage their children to pursue. Almost a quarter said digital skills are irrelevant to the future success of their children. Skills shortage There has been a disconnect for a long time now with young people ignoring trade skills and University courses in difficult technology subjects as a consequence there has been a shortage of such people throughout the recent recession, now we are back to growth the situation is worse. We need to encourage not discourage young people to study and train in technologies. Yes Employers can always do more, but if the interest is not there then this will be to no avail. Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. It is a tough competitive World and no Gov. is going to come along and solve their personal difficulties, as the man said "on yer bike". Of course, if Microsoft is genuinely concerned about there being a shortfall of 100,000 digitally skilled workers the obvious thing for Microsoft to do is to lower the cost of their accredited technician scheme, so that more people can afford to skill-up. Which, by the way, is what MUST happen if you believe - like you do - that "the market" finds the appropriate value of any given commodity. If there are not enough people buying the training Microsoft is offering at the current price it means it is overpriced. Or was that too simple and obvious a solution for you, and them? All The Best Silly boy! You should know by now that profit margins must be maintained come rain or shine. Microsoft should ask the government for additional funding.



Marconi	Dec 15 2014, 11:22 PM Post #45
Regular Member Posts: 775 Group: Members Member #37 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	When young people are past 18 and in full-time work, unless their employer offers further training, they find it very difficult to better themselves by their own steam. Of course many do succeed by using their own money and their own time to gain better qualifications, but many, many more do not because they lack said money and time. Are they that much different from the Danes? I would argue not. It's just that the Denmark has created a culture to help young people succeed. As an aside, we are down to 4 auditors where I work, and when a vacancy for 2 Non-Destructive Test Inspectors appeared on the board last week, all 4 of us applied immediately. Jeez, full-training and a good job at the end of it, I'd bite your hand off for that. They are paying £16 an hour in my own town for that same function. Anyway, once our managers found out that all their auditors had applied, we have now all been offered courses next year! Mine is a 6th Sigma Black Belt course. Sounds good, I think. I wish I knew what it was. Martial arts in quality I hope. So that I can knock out that tattooed white ape of an operator who keeps putting crap in the box!



Steve K	Dec 15 2014, 11:39 PM Post #46
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Marconi Dec 15 2014, 11:22 PM When young people are past 18 and in full-time work, unless their employer offers further training, they find it very difficult to better themselves by their own steam. Of course many do succeed by using their own money and their own time to gain better qualifications, but many, many more do not because they lack said money and time. Are they that much different from the Danes? I would argue not. It's just that the Denmark has created a culture to help young people succeed. As an aside, we are down to 4 auditors where I work, and when a vacancy for 2 Non-Destructive Test Inspectors appeared on the board last week, all 4 of us applied immediately. Jeez, full-training and a good job at the end of it, I'd bite your hand off for that. They are paying £16 an hour in my own town for that same function. Anyway, once our managers found out that all their auditors had applied, we have now all been offered courses next year! Mine is a 6th Sigma Black Belt course. Sounds good, I think. I wish I knew what it was. Martial arts in quality I hope. So that I can knock out that tattooed white ape of an operator who keeps putting crap in the box! IIRC Six Sigma black belts are supposed to be Six Sigma champions, in my experience such were very clever people but a bit detached from reality. But then I'm not a great six sigma fan. Some of the theory is very good but the practice often becomes flawed esp when dealing with software.



Marconi	Dec 15 2014, 11:49 PM Post #47
Regular Member Posts: 775 Group: Members Member #37 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Thanks Steve, for the info. Can I ask if you know much about the Non-Destructive Inspection roles on offer? Worth pursuing that route? My own instinct is to stick with quality, because if the firm did go belly up by any chance, it can be applied to other industries, and so a better chance of a job. NDT looks quite specialist, so the rate might be better, but less of those jobs. Edited by Marconi, Dec 16 2014, 12:02 AM.



RJD	Dec 16 2014, 08:17 AM Post #48
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 15 2014, 09:54 PM RJD Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Quote: In effect, industry in the UK is going to need 750,000 additional digitally-skilled workers by 2017. What’s worrying is that we don’t appear to have the people to fill these positions. Almost 60 per cent of employers say they are already facing a skills shortage. Quote: Microsoft last year reported that there were 100,000 unfilled vacancies in its partner companies across the UK. In the current environment, where we are concerned about unemployment and low wage growth, this seems mad. A recent survey by O2, meanwhile, revealed a “disturbing disconnect” between employers’ requirements and the careers parents would encourage their children to pursue. Almost a quarter said digital skills are irrelevant to the future success of their children. Skills shortage There has been a disconnect for a long time now with young people ignoring trade skills and University courses in difficult technology subjects as a consequence there has been a shortage of such people throughout the recent recession, now we are back to growth the situation is worse. We need to encourage not discourage young people to study and train in technologies. Yes Employers can always do more, but if the interest is not there then this will be to no avail. Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. It is a tough competitive World and no Gov. is going to come along and solve their personal difficulties, as the man said "on yer bike". Of course, if Microsoft is genuinely concerned about there being a shortfall of 100,000 digitally skilled workers the obvious thing for Microsoft to do is to lower the cost of their accredited technician scheme, so that more people can afford to skill-up. Which, by the way, is what MUST happen if you believe - like you do - that "the market" finds the appropriate value of any given commodity. If there are not enough people buying the training Microsoft is offering at the current price it means it is overpriced. Or was that too simple and obvious a solution for you, and them? All The Best A solution, but easier just to go elsewhere. The Chinese are pumping out Software Engineers with Masters Degrees and as far as I know they have no genetic limitations to their ability to do anything other than a first rate job of it. It is a global market and Microsoft is free to invest where it believes the labour resources provide their best long term security.



RJD	Dec 16 2014, 08:23 AM Post #49
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Marconi Dec 15 2014, 11:49 PM Thanks Steve, for the info. Can I ask if you know much about the Non-Destructive Inspection roles on offer? Worth pursuing that route? My own instinct is to stick with quality, because if the firm did go belly up by any chance, it can be applied to other industries, and so a better chance of a job. NDT looks quite specialist, so the rate might be better, but less of those jobs. I think you will find that 6 Sigma quality standards (reliability) translate across and number of industry sectors, particularly electronics, I would advise that you investigate this opportunity in depth before you discard it. It could just be the career change facilitator you are looking for. Try google.



Steve K	Dec 16 2014, 10:07 AM Post #50
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 08:23 AM Marconi Dec 15 2014, 11:49 PM Thanks Steve, for the info. Can I ask if you know much about the Non-Destructive Inspection roles on offer? Worth pursuing that route? My own instinct is to stick with quality, because if the firm did go belly up by any chance, it can be applied to other industries, and so a better chance of a job. NDT looks quite specialist, so the rate might be better, but less of those jobs. I think you will find that 6 Sigma quality standards (reliability) translate across and number of industry sectors, particularly electronics, I would advise that you investigate this opportunity in depth before you discard it. It could just be the career change facilitator you are looking for. Try google. Seconded Sorry Marconi I don't know much on those roles I was Six Sigma trained in the mid 90s. It was and arguably is the best implementation of process analysis to improve end product quality. What I particularly liked was that it so often shows the root causes of poor product are not in the operatives but in the product and manufacturing process design. As an Engineering manager that changed my philosophy dramatically. Six Sigma has some inherent weaknesses though. One is that inevitably company and division heads want to brag about how successful they are in terms of six sigma rating (no one wants to admit to being only 5 sigma) and that drove emphasis on increased opportunity counts rather than the source of defects - wrong, wrong wrong. The truth is Six Sigma quality levels are not really possible with High Mix Low Volume manufacturing and that is probably the UK's biggest manufacturing strength. Six Sigma also struggles to deal with software, in my experience software defies any proper analytical control, and more and more the end product issues were in the software not the build quality. My then and subsequent employers both quietly sidelined the true Sig Sigma aspects and just wanted to use Six Sigma as a brand title for a whole raft of quality enhancing philosophies sadly generally applied only AFTER a problem was discovered. As for quality roles in general they are essential but their status and future depend so much on the company leadership. It is so so easy to get an ISO 9000 accreditation and that is all some company heads care about. One of the phrases that most influenced me is "you cannot inspect quality in" so when a quality audit tells you processes are being flouted you have to take serious action and fast. I have never once had top level support for the action truly needed (to identify and correct root causes and all areas affected) but there are companies out there that very much do have that culture led from the top. So sorry not really an answer, more a meandering essay. Update: The Wiki article on six sigma ain't bad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma it corrects what i said about black belts and also mention the financial side. In the end any good quality initiative saves a company money but I have seen more than once a financially driven leadership expect the needed costs for a Six Sigma programme to be found from the savings in that same year. Utter fuckwittery. So again think about what really drives the organisation. A couple of other points. One of the best six sigma implementations I saw was at a sister division who realised that one of their root problems was their Engineering processes. They re-engineered them to be a sixth of their previous volume (but a serious multiple of being stuck to) And look at the IT philosophy of a company. In many IT is there for command/reporting especially financial however it should be at least as much about enabling design and manufacturing teams to do their job well by giving access to timely, relevant and complete data. I've seen that once. Summary: knowing what your company leadership really does focus on will indicate the status and support of Quality roles Edited by Steve K, Dec 16 2014, 10:22 AM.



disgruntled porker	Dec 16 2014, 10:24 AM Post #51
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	ACH1967 Dec 15 2014, 04:35 PM RJD Dec 15 2014, 03:07 PM AndyK Dec 15 2014, 02:54 PM Tigger Dec 15 2014, 10:13 AM Quoting limited to 4 levels deep Yes we do need to manufacture more, but we need to remember that its a competition for a limited market and the only way for more UK made pencils and cars to be sold are for less German and Chinese pencils and cars to be sold. More competition will drive down profit margins and in volume manufacturing these are, in the main, very tightly squeezed. More money to be made from niche products or niche segments, take high end luxury cars as an example. Those that think that the UK and others should return to metal bashing to earn a living really do not understand the big picture. Today high added value does not come from muscles and manual dexterity. Ask yourself why are the French struggling to stay in the volume small to mid range car business? So what would you have us do with all those of "below average" ability? It's obvious isn't it? The workhouse of course!



Affa	Dec 16 2014, 12:34 PM Post #52
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	QC, NDT, isn't so demanding if you have even average nounce, and you Marconi have more than that. Not too hard to learn how use technological tools (and be able to analyse findings), and over time it can become rather repetitive - a doddle! If you go for it I advise you bear this in mind and focus on it - 'always know and be sure why you test and what you are looking for'. The Why of it more important than the how. You can train monkeys to operate test machines, but a monkey cannot know what to do with the findings.



Marconi	Dec 16 2014, 12:41 PM Post #53
Regular Member Posts: 775 Group: Members Member #37 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Thanks Steve and RJD for the information. It's a great help indeed.



disgruntled porker	Dec 17 2014, 12:40 AM Post #54
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	I did the exams for NDT back in the early 90's. Not too difficult. The environment in which you could be working is probably more challenging than the job. Not highly paid either. There were few vacancies and lots of people chasing those jobs at that time too. The last thing I did involving ndt was testing the turrets for challenger tank. Edited by disgruntled porker, Dec 17 2014, 12:44 AM.



Heinrich	Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM Post #55
Regular Guy Posts: 2,920 Group: Members Member #51 Joined: Jul 22, 2014	It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again.



Cymru	Dec 17 2014, 07:01 AM Post #56
Alt-Right Posts: 3,504 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. In my opinion we should be investing in robotics and transitioning from a market economy to a planned one.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Post #57
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Cymru Dec 17 2014, 07:01 AM Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. In my opinion we should be investing in robotics and transitioning from a market economy to a planned one. Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Best to plan against/for market expectations and not political ones. Every time Politicians intervene they leave a mess behind them, best to spend time regulating in order to get the best of capitalism for the majority. I do not wish to be forced to buy Trabands.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:41 AM Post #58
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. Maybe you need to take a Primer in Economics as it is all to do with added value and those lifting on the wheels and turning the final screws add little. Best you learn what goes into the value adding chain and how dependent manufacturing is on meeting volume budgets in order to be profitable prior to pontificating on such matters. Your obvious ignorance is breathtaking.



Pro Veritas	Dec 17 2014, 09:14 AM Post #59
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Yeah, of course it did. China's economy is abysmal... ...oh, wait. All The Best



Pro Veritas	Dec 17 2014, 09:16 AM Post #60
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:41 AM Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. Maybe you need to take a Primer in Economics as it is all to do with added value and those lifting on the wheels and turning the final screws add little. Best you learn what goes into the value adding chain and how dependent manufacturing is on meeting volume budgets in order to be profitable prior to pontificating on such matters. Your obvious ignorance is breathtaking. Perhaps you could explain just what value is added to a product by the "service sector" that you seem to think, in your OP, we need to upskill 100,000 people for. All The Best



disgruntled porker	Dec 17 2014, 09:33 AM Post #61
Older than most people think I am. Posts: 1,945 Group: Members Member #31 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	It's because the sainted Margaret wanted to decimate the production economy to make way for a service economy. He can't see any further than that.



papasmurf	Dec 17 2014, 09:57 AM Post #62
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. Well RJD I have been waiting two weeks for a certificated gas fitter to connect a new gas hob to the pipe to the changeover valve outside and do a leak test. (About 1/2 an hours work and he lives 20 yards away.) He has been leaving for work at 07.00 hours every day for those two weeks including weekends and not getting back until 20.00 hours. The only other certificated gas fitters in the area live a long way away and would have to charge a lot of money because of travelling time and costs. My job is not urgent as we have a more than adequate camping gas hob we can use until the he can do the job.



AndyK	Dec 17 2014, 10:02 AM Post #63
Senior Member Posts: 2,474 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: Aug 11, 2014	papasmurf Dec 17 2014, 09:57 AM RJD Dec 15 2014, 09:15 AM Young people need to get the message that those with skills have done well and will continue to do so and those without will continue to compete for low paid menial jobs will all and sundry. Well RJD I have been waiting two weeks for a certificated gas fitter to connect a new gas hob to the pipe to the changeover valve outside and do a leak test. (About 1/2 an hours work and he lives 20 yards away.) He has been leaving for work at 07.00 hours every day for those two weeks including weekends and not getting back until 20.00 hours. The only other certificated gas fitters in the area live a long way away and would have to charge a lot of money because of travelling time and costs. My job is not urgent as we have a more than adequate camping gas hob we can use until the he can do the job. Do it yourself and get someone to leak test whenever.



papasmurf	Dec 17 2014, 10:19 AM Post #64
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	AndyK Dec 17 2014, 10:02 AM Do it yourself and get someone to leak test whenever. I am not risking jail. Plus getting a leak test poses the same difficulty. Very few people certificated to do it and they are as busy as my neighbour, I also could not use it until it is certificated because there would be no insurance cover.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 12:22 PM Post #65
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 17 2014, 09:16 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:41 AM Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. Maybe you need to take a Primer in Economics as it is all to do with added value and those lifting on the wheels and turning the final screws add little. Best you learn what goes into the value adding chain and how dependent manufacturing is on meeting volume budgets in order to be profitable prior to pontificating on such matters. Your obvious ignorance is breathtaking. Perhaps you could explain just what value is added to a product by the "service sector" that you seem to think, in your OP, we need to upskill 100,000 people for. All The Best Maybe you could first provide me with the product identification and current market price in order that I can make a start. Or is this a generalised question that will go nowhere? Do you think that those in the Public Sector will be able to deliver in the future without requisite skills in digital technologies? I think not as much is now presented on the internet.



Cymru	Dec 17 2014, 05:47 PM Post #66
Alt-Right Posts: 3,504 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Planned by Politicians? Technocrats.



Tigger	Dec 17 2014, 09:18 PM Post #67
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 17 2014, 09:14 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Yeah, of course it did. China's economy is abysmal... ...oh, wait. All The Best I did offer to buy him a new stylus but he ignored the offer for some reason.



Tigger	Dec 17 2014, 09:22 PM Post #68
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Cymru Dec 17 2014, 07:01 AM Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. In my opinion we should be investing in robotics and transitioning from a market economy to a planned one. Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Best to plan against/for market expectations and not political ones. Every time Politicians intervene they leave a mess behind them, best to spend time regulating in order to get the best of capitalism for the majority. I do not wish to be forced to buy Trabands. I largely agree, politicians should be the referees and not the managers, red cards should be shown to teams that do not place any value on the society they operate in.



ACH1967	Dec 18 2014, 09:03 AM Post #69
Senior Member Posts: 4,226 Group: Members Member #56 Joined: Jul 24, 2014	Tigger Dec 17 2014, 09:22 PM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Cymru Dec 17 2014, 07:01 AM Heinrich Dec 17 2014, 06:22 AM It is rubbish to say that working with hands is unimportant and that English kids should be aping the small wage computer industry like India. Ask yourself, why is Germany an industrial European powerhouse. What England needs is to give the Tories and New Labour the boot and elect politician who believe in and will support manufacturing once again. In my opinion we should be investing in robotics and transitioning from a market economy to a planned one. Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Best to plan against/for market expectations and not political ones. Every time Politicians intervene they leave a mess behind them, best to spend time regulating in order to get the best of capitalism for the majority. I do not wish to be forced to buy Trabands. I largely agree, politicians should be the referees and not the managers, red cards should be shown to teams that do not place any value on the society they operate in. good analogy



RJD	Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Post #70
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Tigger Dec 17 2014, 09:18 PM Pro Veritas Dec 17 2014, 09:14 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:38 AM Planned by Politicians? We tried that and it failed everywhere. Yeah, of course it did. China's economy is abysmal... ...oh, wait. All The Best I did offer to buy him a new stylus but he ignored the offer for some reason. Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank.



papasmurf	Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM Post #71
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is.



RJD	Dec 18 2014, 04:30 PM Post #72
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is. Very true, but there are some types of wood that are very hard to penetrate even with the sharpest of nails.



Tigger	Dec 18 2014, 07:01 PM Post #73
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 18 2014, 04:30 PM papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is. Very true, but there are some types of wood that are very hard to penetrate even with the sharpest of nails. Still using old technology I see, we use Paslode nailer's these days.



Lewis	Dec 19 2014, 08:13 AM Post #74
Senior Member Posts: 3,478 Group: Members Member #10 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is. Precisely and in this instance the hammer wielder fails to possess such skills.



RJD	Dec 19 2014, 11:14 AM Post #75
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Lewis Dec 19 2014, 08:13 AM papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is. Precisely and in this instance the hammer wielder fails to possess such skills. You are not qualified to judge.



RJD	Dec 19 2014, 11:15 AM Post #76
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Tigger Dec 18 2014, 07:01 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 04:30 PM papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 01:13 PM Because I know it takes a lot of blows to drive a nail through a thick plank. That depends on how skilful the hammer wielder is. Very true, but there are some types of wood that are very hard to penetrate even with the sharpest of nails. Still using old technology I see, we use Paslode nailer's these days. No doubt, but I would not recommend that you use this technique to secure water pipes.



papasmurf	Dec 19 2014, 02:46 PM Post #77
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 19 2014, 11:14 AM You are not qualified to judge. When it comes to wielding hammers, I am far more qualified than you are.



RJD	Dec 19 2014, 06:28 PM Post #78
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 19 2014, 02:46 PM RJD Dec 19 2014, 11:14 AM You are not qualified to judge. When it comes to wielding hammers, I am far more qualified than you are. How come? I invented them.



papasmurf	Dec 19 2014, 07:01 PM Post #79
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 19 2014, 06:28 PM How come? I invented them. I didn't realise you were 32000 years old RJD?



Tigger	Dec 19 2014, 09:49 PM Post #80
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 19 2014, 11:15 AM Tigger Dec 18 2014, 07:01 PM RJD Dec 18 2014, 04:30 PM papasmurf Dec 18 2014, 01:39 PM Quoting limited to 4 levels deep Very true, but there are some types of wood that are very hard to penetrate even with the sharpest of nails. Still using old technology I see, we use Paslode nailer's these days. No doubt, but I would not recommend that you use this technique to secure water pipes. Didn't you use pipe clips when you ~~illegally bodged~~ installed your heating system? (with no leaks) Edited by Tigger, Dec 19 2014, 09:49 PM.



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