Energy Prices

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Energy Prices
Topic Started: Dec 16 2014, 01:49 PM (287 Views)
RJD	Dec 16 2014, 01:49 PM Post #1
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	As Milli is banging the drum ion UK energy prices I thought it time, once again, to obtain some perspective. Energy costs EUR per kWh Household Gas Prices Household Electricity Prices Country 2011 2012 2013 2011 2012 2013 Germany 0.059 0.064 0.066 0.253 0.260 0.292 France 0.058 0.064 0.068 0.138 0.139 0.147 Italy 0.069 0.077 0.083 0.199 0.213 0.229 UK 0.043 0.052 0.053 0.143 0.168 0.174 Source: aerostat link: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Half-yearly_electricity_and_gas_prices,_first_half_of_year,_2011–13_(EUR_per_kWh)_YB14.png With the UK traditionally enjoying among the lowest energy prices in the EU and the fact that Crude Oil prices are sliding towards $40.00 per Barrel I wonder why Politicians wish to freeze prices?



Pro Veritas	Dec 16 2014, 02:47 PM Post #2
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	And once again I'll point out that cost/kWh is meaningless until you also factor in % of income spent on energy. We have more people in fuel poverty than any other major EU economy. We are the 3rd largest economy in Europe, the 6th largest economy in the world, and we have over 20% of people living in fuel poverty - that is simply shameful. All The Best



krugerman	Dec 16 2014, 03:41 PM Post #3
Regular Member Posts: 1,152 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	So is RJD saying that to freeze energy prices is not a good idea, does he perhaps feel that he wants to keep on paying more and more for energy prices, and that in reality people really dont mind paying higher prices. ? Remember that phrase "we are all in this together" Water companies, train operators, energy companies can all hike prices up way above inflation, but a nurse cannot even have 1% pay rise, if ordinary people on ordinary wages have to make sacrifices, then why not shareholders in all these companies. ? "we are all in this together unless your wealthy or a shareholder, in which case you can do what you want, charge what you want, make as much money as you want"



Steve K	Dec 16 2014, 04:01 PM Post #4
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Yes we should all vote ourselves free electricity, gas, water and of course money Perhaps a more informed critique of the OP would be needed Here is the whole chart And here is the page it links to: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Energy_price_statistics And here is the balancing text Quote: The share of taxes and levies (including VAT) within the total price of electricity was lowest in the United Kingdom (4.8 %), resulting from a relatively low VAT rate being applied to the basic price, while no other taxes were added. Malta also reported a relatively low burden from taxation, as this accounted for 5.0 % of the total price of electricity for consumers; these were the only two EU Member States where the share of taxation in the final price was in single digits. At the other end of the scale, the highest proportion of taxes in the final price of electricity for consumers was recorded in Denmark, where more than half (56.7 %) of the final price was made up of VAT, taxes and levies; Germany (48.9 %) and Portugal (41.9 %) had the next highest shares. Yes we have had successive government falsely claiming to be committed to cutting carbon use while actually having the lowest taxes on energy use. We have to endure endless bollocks like the lies about TVs on standby, hitting drivers and banning light bulbs that actually illuminate but when it comes to real measures on the bulk of energy use: nothing. Can't be losing votes now can we. Does anyone have a comparison of the prices excl tax? Then we could really see how the energy market does or does not work in the UK. IMHO there's no cartel nor excess profits on the supply side but the difficulties in switching suppliers do mean the market works ineffectively esp on the energy generation side.



ACH1967	Dec 16 2014, 04:07 PM Post #5
Senior Member Posts: 4,226 Group: Members Member #56 Joined: Jul 24, 2014	krugerman Dec 16 2014, 03:41 PM So is RJD saying that to freeze energy prices is not a good idea, does he perhaps feel that he wants to keep on paying more and more for energy prices, and that in reality people really dont mind paying higher prices. ? Remember that phrase "we are all in this together" Water companies, train operators, energy companies can all hike prices up way above inflation, but a nurse cannot even have 1% pay rise, if ordinary people on ordinary wages have to make sacrifices, then why not shareholders in all these companies. ? "we are all in this together unless your wealthy or a shareholder, in which case you can do what you want, charge what you want, make as much money as you want" The nurses wage rise confuses me. Aren't the only ones who aren't getti ng the 1% pay rise those who are already getting this in cremental pay rise?



Pro Veritas	Dec 16 2014, 04:15 PM Post #6
Upstanding Member Posts: 7,030 Group: Admins Member #19 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Dec 16 2014, 04:01 PM Yes we should all vote ourselves free electricity, gas, water and of course money One could certainly put together a cogent argument that as it is 100% necessary to have it to live that water should be free (as in free at point of service for domestic users). I understand fully that there are costs involved in treating and distributing it; but a more civilised nation would have those costs covered by general taxation and the domestic use of water would be FAPOS. I find it alarming that so many people think that the monetisation and corporatisation of, and profiteering from, a basic life essential is a laudable thing. All The Best



Montjoie	Dec 16 2014, 04:59 PM Post #7
Regular Member Posts: 1,205 Group: Members Member #7 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 16 2014, 04:15 PM Steve K Dec 16 2014, 04:01 PM Yes we should all vote ourselves free electricity, gas, water and of course money One could certainly put together a cogent argument that as it is 100% necessary to have it to live that water should be free (as in free at point of service for domestic users). I understand fully that there are costs involved in treating and distributing it; but a more civilised nation would have those costs covered by general taxation and the domestic use of water would be FAPOS. I find it alarming that so many people think that the monetisation and corporatisation of, and profiteering from, a basic life essential is a laudable thing. All The Best Sadly, Humans being who they are, if you don't make people pay, they'll just leave their shower running 24/7, they would never bother turning off their devices and lights. Privatization and free of charge commodities are different things. And then you can design price schemes so that for very basic usage, it could come as free of charge indeed. Edited by Montjoie, Dec 16 2014, 05:00 PM.



papasmurf	Dec 16 2014, 06:43 PM Post #8
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 01:49 PM With the UK traditionally enjoying among the lowest energy prices in the EU and the fact that Crude Oil prices are sliding towards $40.00 per Barrel I wonder why Politicians wish to freeze prices? What amongst the lowest prices? Have you actually taken a close look at those charts. Plus in France for instance is you only have a 6 kilowatt supply electricity is dirt cheap, those charts do not reflect that.



RJD	Dec 16 2014, 06:56 PM Post #9
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	krugerman Dec 16 2014, 03:41 PM So is RJD saying that to freeze energy prices is not a good idea, does he perhaps feel that he wants to keep on paying more and more for energy prices, and that in reality people really dont mind paying higher prices. ? Remember that phrase "we are all in this together" Water companies, train operators, energy companies can all hike prices up way above inflation, but a nurse cannot even have 1% pay rise, if ordinary people on ordinary wages have to make sacrifices, then why not shareholders in all these companies. ? "we are all in this together unless your wealthy or a shareholder, in which case you can do what you want, charge what you want, make as much money as you want" Yes I know it is a bad idea as it will distort market prices, usually to our disadvantage and why would anyone in their right mind want to freeze prices when they are dropping. The solution is more competition and fortunately for us that is what we are now getting. Labour allowing the competitive forces to reduce from 14 to 6 was a big mistake. PV makes a point, but this is not relevant to this thread as all countries buy oil products on the open market at similar prices so it is the cost refined, stored, distributed and delivered to our homes relative to neighbour countries in the EU that is relevant. The cost of labour in the equation is negligible.



RJD	Dec 16 2014, 07:01 PM Post #10
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Pro Veritas Dec 16 2014, 04:15 PM Steve K Dec 16 2014, 04:01 PM Yes we should all vote ourselves free electricity, gas, water and of course money One could certainly put together a cogent argument that as it is 100% necessary to have it to live that water should be free (as in free at point of service for domestic users). I understand fully that there are costs involved in treating and distributing it; but a more civilised nation would have those costs covered by general taxation and the domestic use of water would be FAPOS. I find it alarming that so many people think that the monetisation and corporatisation of, and profiteering from, a basic life essential is a laudable thing. All The Best But that is based on your personal measure of what "civilised" might mean. I really do not understand that you can make such a claim for water, but food is equally as important, so why separate out food? Give water and food to all comers at Food-banks for the Nation. Next will be the claim for roofs, windows, heating and of course what good is food without energy to cook it? Where will you draw the line? I know that once anything is provided free of charges then Joe Public abuses it as it is without value too them.



RJD	Dec 16 2014, 07:02 PM Post #11
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 16 2014, 06:43 PM RJD Dec 16 2014, 01:49 PM With the UK traditionally enjoying among the lowest energy prices in the EU and the fact that Crude Oil prices are sliding towards $40.00 per Barrel I wonder why Politicians wish to freeze prices? What amongst the lowest prices? Have you actually taken a close look at those charts. Plus in France for instance is you only have a 6 kilowatt supply electricity is dirt cheap, those charts do not reflect that. Those charts are from Eurostat.



Affa	Dec 16 2014, 07:58 PM Post #12
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	The UK is not totally reliant on Russia or anybody else for its gas and oil. France produces a lot of nuclear energy and its domestic users do see the benefit of that with cheap electricity .....



Rich	Dec 16 2014, 08:09 PM Post #13
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Steve K Dec 16 2014, 04:01 PM Yes we should all vote ourselves free electricity, gas, water and of course money Perhaps a more informed critique of the OP would be needed Here is the whole chart And here is the page it links to: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Energy_price_statistics And here is the balancing text Quote: The share of taxes and levies (including VAT) within the total price of electricity was lowest in the United Kingdom (4.8 %), resulting from a relatively low VAT rate being applied to the basic price, while no other taxes were added. Malta also reported a relatively low burden from taxation, as this accounted for 5.0 % of the total price of electricity for consumers; these were the only two EU Member States where the share of taxation in the final price was in single digits. At the other end of the scale, the highest proportion of taxes in the final price of electricity for consumers was recorded in Denmark, where more than half (56.7 %) of the final price was made up of VAT, taxes and levies; Germany (48.9 %) and Portugal (41.9 %) had the next highest shares. Yes we have had successive government falsely claiming to be committed to cutting carbon use while actually having the lowest taxes on energy use. We have to endure endless bollocks like the lies about TVs on standby, hitting drivers and banning light bulbs that actually illuminate but when it comes to real measures on the bulk of energy use: nothing. Can't be losing votes now can we. Does anyone have a comparison of the prices excl tax? Then we could really see how the energy market does or does not work in the UK. IMHO there's no cartel nor excess profits on the supply side but the difficulties in switching suppliers do mean the market works ineffectively esp on the energy generation side. Sadly, well above my head, but, according to a broad range of forecasts last week,"green policies" will add another £250.00 per annum to the average household energy bill next year, despite the fact that energy companies have been fined for failing to meet their committments regarding household insulation etc whereby households are given grants via government (public) monies from the energy suppliers who, it would seem have pocketed the money but have not met their targets. It is obvious to me that due to a very mild summer and autumn very little household gas was used and the shareholders will still demand a premium on their investments so expect a gas price rise very soon.



papasmurf	Dec 16 2014, 08:11 PM Post #14
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 07:02 PM Those charts are from Eurostat. I don't care where they are from RJD, I know how little electricity in France costs me per unit because I have to pay every November for what I has used in the last year. (There are no standing charges.)



AndyK	Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM Post #15
Senior Member Posts: 2,474 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: Aug 11, 2014	I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates.



Rich	Dec 16 2014, 08:20 PM Post #16
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates. If that IS the case then the west are unaware of the hornets nest that they are about to anger, the only people that can make a difference are the Russians themselves, I do not think that capitulisation to the west's desires enters their thoughts, they are far too proud and are well used to deprivation and hardship.



AndyK	Dec 16 2014, 08:29 PM Post #17
Senior Member Posts: 2,474 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: Aug 11, 2014	Rich Dec 16 2014, 08:20 PM AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates. If that IS the case then the west are unaware of the hornets nest that they are about to anger, the only people that can make a difference are the Russians themselves, I do not think that capitulisation to the west's desires enters their thoughts, they are far too proud and are well used to deprivation and hardship. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30492518 Rates now at 17%, won't take too long I think.



Tigger	Dec 16 2014, 08:47 PM Post #18
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 06:56 PM The cost of labour in the equation is negligible. But the cost of paying off shareholders is not. And don't forget that when major capital investment is needed in Britain's energy supply it tends to be the taxpayer that foots the bill and not those shareholders. File under my pile(s) has gone critical.



Cymru	Dec 16 2014, 10:09 PM Post #19
Alt-Right Posts: 3,504 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates. They'll be waiting a long time then. The Russians already know that that is the West's game which is why they won't play ball. Edited by Cymru, Dec 16 2014, 10:10 PM.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:48 AM Post #20
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 16 2014, 07:58 PM The UK is not totally reliant on Russia or anybody else for its gas and oil. France produces a lot of nuclear energy and its domestic users do see the benefit of that with cheap electricity ..... Not true. The UK is a lot less reliant on Russia than Germany say and a bit more so with those Northern folk.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:50 AM Post #21
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 16 2014, 08:11 PM RJD Dec 16 2014, 07:02 PM Those charts are from Eurostat. I don't care where they are from RJD, I know how little electricity in France costs me per unit because I have to pay every November for what I has used in the last year. (There are no standing charges.) I don't think that Eurostat runs a metric "What energy costs Mr Smurf", so best stay with their numbers.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:54 AM Post #22
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates. Not true, the Saudis are responding to the expansion of the use of shale in the USA and it is possible we will see a $40.00 per barrel price and maybe, hope of all hopes, a £1.00 per Litre for the green stuff. That said I am sure that the Saudis are also happy that Russia gets a bloody nose in the process for their support of Syria and Iran.



papasmurf	Dec 17 2014, 08:58 AM Post #23
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:50 AM I don't think that Eurostat runs a metric "What energy costs Mr Smurf", so best stay with their numbers. They don't include standing charges or the low tariffs available RJD, it has nothing to do with special treatment by EDF energy for Brits who own property in France. (Which does not exist) It is the actual bill that matters not what is on those charts. My supplier is EDF in France and in Britain.



Steve K	Dec 17 2014, 09:01 AM Post #24
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:50 AM papasmurf Dec 16 2014, 08:11 PM RJD Dec 16 2014, 07:02 PM Those charts are from Eurostat. I don't care where they are from RJD, I know how little electricity in France costs me per unit because I have to pay every November for what I has used in the last year. (There are no standing charges.) I don't think that Eurostat runs a metric "What energy costs Mr Smurf", so best stay with their numbers. but no one has yet produced the comparison with the tax differentials removed. Until we see those then your figures are just interesting and no real indicator of economic fundamentals



papasmurf	Dec 17 2014, 09:09 AM Post #25
Senior Member Posts: 17,280 Group: Members Member #13 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Steve K Dec 17 2014, 09:01 AM But no one has yet produced the comparison with the tax differentials removed. Until we see those then your figures are just interesting and no real indicator of economic fundamentals Precisely.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 09:13 AM Post #26
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	papasmurf Dec 17 2014, 08:58 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:50 AM I don't think that Eurostat runs a metric "What energy costs Mr Smurf", so best stay with their numbers. They don't include standing charges or the low tariffs available RJD, it has nothing to do with special treatment by EDF energy for Brits who own property in France. (Which does not exist) It is the actual bill that matters not what is on those charts. My supplier is EDF in France and in Britain. Good for you but my comments stand. By the way I enjoy one of the lowest tariffs for gas available to a UK domestic and even the cooperative of consumers came up with a higher rate than mine. Just fixed for an even lower rate through to June 2016. That said my wife burns ~4x national average.



Tigger	Dec 17 2014, 09:02 PM Post #27
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Cymru Dec 16 2014, 10:09 PM AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:16 PM I suspect the oil price slide is a deliberate ploy to undermine Putin and normality will be resumed once he capitulates. They'll be waiting a long time then. The Russians already know that that is the West's game which is why they won't play ball. Russia won't have any balls to play with at this rate.



Tigger	Dec 17 2014, 09:04 PM Post #28
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 09:13 AM That said my wife burns ~4x national average. I'm not surprised, keeping Hell warm must be expensive.



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