Evel Plans

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Evel Plans
Topic Started: Dec 16 2014, 07:14 PM (370 Views)
RJD	Dec 16 2014, 07:14 PM Post #1
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	English Votes for English Laws have three options: 1. A ban on Scottish MPs voting on any stage of laws only applying to England. 2. A veto for English MPs on English-only laws before they take effect. 3. Committee stage of an England-only bill’s progress through the Commons to consist solely of English MPs. Quote: Tory backbenchers want option one. Downing Street is believed to prefer option two. Labour feels option three is the least evil. And the Lib Dems have their own fourth option, which is a grand committee grand committee of English and Welsh MPs. - Speccy Which one suits you best? For me 1). is simple and clean, 2). is also OK as it provides a safeguard, but could produce bad blood and allow petty politicking. The rest appear messy and designed to obfuscate.



Cymru	Dec 16 2014, 07:21 PM Post #2
Alt-Right Posts: 3,504 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	Directly-elected English assembly based in Birmingham or Manchester.



Affa	Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM Post #3
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical.



AndyK	Dec 16 2014, 08:11 PM Post #4
Senior Member Posts: 2,474 Group: Members Member #69 Joined: Aug 11, 2014	Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. I agree, the last thing we need is yet another layer of bureaucracy.



Rich	Dec 16 2014, 08:14 PM Post #5
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 07:14 PM English Votes for English Laws have three options: 1. A ban on Scottish MPs voting on any stage of laws only applying to England. 2. A veto for English MPs on English-only laws before they take effect. 3. Committee stage of an England-only bill’s progress through the Commons to consist solely of English MPs. Quote: Tory backbenchers want option one. Downing Street is believed to prefer option two. Labour feels option three is the least evil. And the Lib Dems have their own fourth option, which is a grand committee grand committee of English and Welsh MPs. - Speccy Which one suits you best? For me 1). is simple and clean, 2). is also OK as it provides a safeguard, but could produce bad blood and allow petty politicking. The rest appear messy and designed to obfuscate. The important word from the libdem option is "consultation".............you could not make it up, they are even more off mark than the monster raving loony party ever were.....perhaps they need to visit specsavers and also the hearing aid suppliers as they are obviously unaware of popular opinion and seem hell bent on coming 4th at the next GE.



Rich	Dec 16 2014, 08:15 PM Post #6
Senior Member Posts: 14,463 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: Jun 28, 2014	Cymru Dec 16 2014, 07:21 PM Directly-elected English assembly based in Birmingham or Manchester. Why those two places?



Tigger	Dec 16 2014, 09:17 PM Post #7
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	AndyK Dec 16 2014, 08:11 PM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. I agree, the last thing we need is yet another layer of bureaucracy. Yes, same here, and given that there are far fewer Scottish MP's does it really matter?



Cymru	Dec 16 2014, 10:11 PM Post #8
Alt-Right Posts: 3,504 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	Rich Dec 16 2014, 08:15 PM Cymru Dec 16 2014, 07:21 PM Directly-elected English assembly based in Birmingham or Manchester. Why those two places? Takes decision-making away from the cancer of London.



krugerman	Dec 16 2014, 11:26 PM Post #9
Regular Member Posts: 1,152 Group: Members Member #11 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	My vote Leave things as they are



Tytoalba	Dec 16 2014, 11:41 PM Post #10
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	RJD Dec 16 2014, 07:14 PM English Votes for English Laws have three options: 1. A ban on Scottish MPs voting on any stage of laws only applying to England. 2. A veto for English MPs on English-only laws before they take effect. 3. Committee stage of an England-only bill’s progress through the Commons to consist solely of English MPs. Quote: Tory backbenchers want option one. Downing Street is believed to prefer option two. Labour feels option three is the least evil. And the Lib Dems have their own fourth option, which is a grand committee grand committee of English and Welsh MPs. - Speccy Which one suits you best? For me 1). is simple and clean, 2). is also OK as it provides a safeguard, but could produce bad blood and allow petty politicking. The rest appear messy and designed to obfuscate. You missed an option out. Why not a full elected English Parliament, or assembly in the same manner as Scotland, Wales and N Ireland. They seem to think it satisfies their needs and looks after their national interests, so why not the same for England? It will be another tier of government. but then so is theirs. and no one seems unduly concerned about them. What we re doing is moving towards a federal state. I think that the fiddling about is more to do with the EU, and complying with plans and agreements to make us all part of an EU state than for the national interests of any part of the United kingdom. The original intent of regionalisation was to break up the UK into the 13 planned regions each with its own local government, and each region part of the regionalisation of Europe. Scotland Wales Northern Ireland and London are all planned regions of Europe.



Tytoalba	Dec 16 2014, 11:43 PM Post #11
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Rich Dec 16 2014, 08:15 PM Cymru Dec 16 2014, 07:21 PM Directly-elected English assembly based in Birmingham or Manchester. Why those two places? I favour Warwick, almost dead centre of England and with its own symbolic Castle. Easy access to all parts.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Post #12
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them?



Affa	Dec 17 2014, 10:42 AM Post #13
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them? Because the only reason change is being considered is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can exercise a vote to determine policy in England - it does not mean that a) they will exercise that power, and b) that their vote will alter the outcome and change policy. These are hypothesis!



Tytoalba	Dec 17 2014, 11:00 AM Post #14
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Affa Dec 17 2014, 10:42 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them? Because the only reason change is being considered is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can exercise a vote to determine policy in England - it does not mean that a) they will exercise that power, and b) that their vote will alter the outcome and change policy. These are hypothesis! My experience in life is that if something can be done it eventually will be. The SNP is a self seeking party, looking for every opportunity to further their cause. if they can do it they will. I opposed devolution from its outset, and the consequences . as they stand was inevitable, with a rise in English nationalism to oppose that in Wales and Scotland. I joined the campaign for an English parliament for the very reasons we see today. If the decision was made to revert to the one government in Westminster, to return to the what was . I would be more than pleased but its not going to happen, so the only real alternative to the current mess is to give to the English that which has been given to Scotland. . and that is an English Parliament for the people of England., Breaking up England into regions, the EU plan is not the answer, for that gives Scotland and Wales as well as Northern Ireland individual national identities, whist breaking up England into parts, and effectively losing theirs. Campaign for an English Parliament - Official Site http//thecep.org.uk The CEP campaigns for an English Parliament that will represent all those for whom England is their chosen or inherited home and who are entitled to vote.



Tytoalba	Dec 17 2014, 11:02 AM Post #15
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Tytoalba Dec 17 2014, 11:00 AM Affa Dec 17 2014, 10:42 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them? Because the only reason change is being considered is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can exercise a vote to determine policy in England - it does not mean that a) they will exercise that power, and b) that their vote will alter the outcome and change policy. These are hypothesis! My experience in life is that if something can be done it eventually will be. The SNP is a self seeking party, looking for every opportunity to further their cause. if they can do it they will. I opposed devolution from its outset, and the consequences . as they stand was inevitable, with a rise in English nationalism to oppose that in Wales and Scotland. I joined the campaign for an English parliament for the very reasons we see today. If the decision was made to revert to the one government in Westminster, to return to the what was . I would be more than pleased but its not going to happen, so the only real alternative to the current mess is to give to the English that which has been given to Scotland. . and that is an English Parliament for the people of England., Breaking up England into regions, the EU plan is not the answer, for that gives Scotland and Wales as well as Northern Ireland individual national identities, whist breaking up England into parts, and effectively losing theirs. Campaign for an English Parliament - Official Site http//thecep.org.uk The CEP campaigns for an English Parliament that will represent all those for whom England is their chosen or inherited home and who are entitled to vote. http://thecep.org.uk I hope that's better.



Affa	Dec 17 2014, 11:19 AM Post #16
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	Why on earth would Scottish Westminster MPs walk into a snake pit and do as you say 'Owl'? Another governing body of elected reps is over reacting to a 'possible' scenario that imo will not happen. Even if it did go that way the consequences are also minute ......... and I remind that Scotland has had centuries of rule from English MPs and nobody in England ever said that was unfair. This is 'Party Politics' at play, and I'm annoyed that there are some here that would want changes (and costs) just because of their party leanings.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 12:14 PM Post #17
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 17 2014, 10:42 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them? Because the only reason change is being considered is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can exercise a vote to determine policy in England - it does not mean that a) they will exercise that power, and b) that their vote will alter the outcome and change policy. These are hypothesis! Not hypothetical at all they, the Scots, have used such powers to enforce on England that which they deny for themselves.



RJD	Dec 17 2014, 12:16 PM Post #18
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Affa Dec 17 2014, 11:19 AM Why on earth would Scottish Westminster MPs walk into a snake pit and do as you say 'Owl'? Another governing body of elected reps is over reacting to a 'possible' scenario that imo will not happen. Even if it did go that way the consequences are also minute ......... and I remind that Scotland has had centuries of rule from English MPs and nobody in England ever said that was unfair. This is 'Party Politics' at play, and I'm annoyed that there are some here that would want changes (and costs) just because of their party leanings. The fact that Scotland or Ireland or India was once ruled by the English is irrelevant. We are dealing with the now.



Affa	Dec 17 2014, 05:43 PM Post #19
Senior Member Posts: 11,999 Group: Members Member #58 Joined: Jul 26, 2014	RJD Dec 17 2014, 12:14 PM Affa Dec 17 2014, 10:42 AM RJD Dec 17 2014, 08:46 AM Affa Dec 16 2014, 08:01 PM I honestly see no need for change ...... the arguments are entirely hypothetical. What is hypothetical about them? Because the only reason change is being considered is that Scottish MPs in Westminster can exercise a vote to determine policy in England - it does not mean that a) they will exercise that power, and b) that their vote will alter the outcome and change policy. These are hypothesis! Not hypothetical at all they, the Scots, have used such powers to enforce on England that which they deny for themselves. I know of one instance when the Scottish MPs were decisive in the Blair government passing an unpopular policy. Both the Tories and the Liberals opposed student fees plus some Labour MPs ...... lo-and-behold the coalition of these two hypocrites increased those fees threefold as soon as they were able to form the government. So the reality is that that legislation remains on the books and hence the actions of those Scottish MPs has not made any difference in the long term.



Tytoalba	Dec 17 2014, 11:38 PM Post #20
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Affa Dec 17 2014, 11:19 AM Why on earth would Scottish Westminster MPs walk into a snake pit and do as you say 'Owl'? Another governing body of elected reps is over reacting to a 'possible' scenario that imo will not happen. Even if it did go that way the consequences are also minute ......... and I remind that Scotland has had centuries of rule from English MPs and nobody in England ever said that was unfair. This is 'Party Politics' at play, and I'm annoyed that there are some here that would want changes (and costs) just because of their party leanings. My loyalty to my country is grater then my loyalty to any political party. I campaign for a united England. No one seemed to object to the decision to build a Scottish Parliament costing £414 millions, or a Welsh assembly building that cost 67 million, or states that the Scottish Nationalists or Plaid Cymru are to be ignored, so why the objection to an English Parliament to look after the interests of the people of England?



Steve K	Dec 17 2014, 11:51 PM Post #21
Once and future cynic Posts: 33,990 Group: Admins Member #20 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Option 1 for me. The SNP has hardly hidden its intent to act as a king maker should it hold the balance of power next year. A threat that only works because they could frustrate English laws, a constitutional counterbalance is now needed.



RJD	Dec 18 2014, 04:39 PM Post #22
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Tytoalba Dec 17 2014, 11:38 PM Affa Dec 17 2014, 11:19 AM Why on earth would Scottish Westminster MPs walk into a snake pit and do as you say 'Owl'? Another governing body of elected reps is over reacting to a 'possible' scenario that imo will not happen. Even if it did go that way the consequences are also minute ......... and I remind that Scotland has had centuries of rule from English MPs and nobody in England ever said that was unfair. This is 'Party Politics' at play, and I'm annoyed that there are some here that would want changes (and costs) just because of their party leanings. My loyalty to my country is grater then my loyalty to any political party. I campaign for a united England. No one seemed to object to the decision to build a Scottish Parliament costing £414 millions, or a Welsh assembly building that cost 67 million, or states that the Scottish Nationalists or Plaid Cymru are to be ignored, so why the objection to an English Parliament to look after the interests of the people of England? I think the simple answer is that history has made our constitutional niceties very complex. The mistake was Blair's when he granted Scotland a degree of devolution, now we cannot rewind history. As the English dominate to a massive extent I see no reason for a separate English Parliament only safeguards to ensure that the balances within our sovereignty is reasonable and acceptable. In that regard I think Tommy Atkins will be content with matters remaining as they are, but with English MPs only voting on matters that effect England only. A Parliament for England would force a debate on full blooded Federalism which I think is best avoided at this stage, especially when we have not even started on such a complex matter.



ranger121	Dec 18 2014, 05:59 PM Post #23
Administrator Posts: 3,806 Group: Admins Member #2 Joined: Jun 26, 2014	I just looked in here to see what Evel has planned.



Tigger	Dec 18 2014, 06:54 PM Post #24
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	ranger121 Dec 18 2014, 05:59 PM I just looked in here to see what Evel has planned. Same here, imagine my disappointment when I found no mention of an attempt to break the World record in bus jumping.



scorpio	Dec 18 2014, 10:20 PM Post #25
Regular Member Posts: 497 Group: Members Member #21 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	I don't see how there can be a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly, and an Irish Assembly, without an English Assembly/Parliament. It seems undemocratic, to devolve, or partially devolve, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, without devolving England. It seems to also be undemocratic, to elect representatives to the House of Commons, where some representatives have full voting powers, and others have partial voting powers. It just seems to me, to be another example of indecision, and the English method of "muddling through" the modified process. Devolution will continue, and the federation model is already in progress. Although I would not be in favour of another level of government, I concede that, in favour of more democracy, and an English Assembly/Parliament places England on the same level playing field as Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, with more democracy.



RJD	Dec 19 2014, 11:22 AM Post #26
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	scorpio Dec 18 2014, 10:20 PM I don't see how there can be a Scottish Parliament, a Welsh Assembly, and an Irish Assembly, without an English Assembly/Parliament. It seems undemocratic, to devolve, or partially devolve, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, without devolving England. It seems to also be undemocratic, to elect representatives to the House of Commons, where some representatives have full voting powers, and others have partial voting powers. It just seems to me, to be another example of indecision, and the English method of "muddling through" the modified process. Devolution will continue, and the federation model is already in progress. Although I would not be in favour of another level of government, I concede that, in favour of more democracy, and an English Assembly/Parliament places England on the same level playing field as Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, with more democracy. Why not? A Parliament based in London that has the vast majority of MPs from English seats and regulates for EVEL cannot be considered unconstitutional or unfair to English Taxpayers/Voters. I have no objection to an ultimate federal structure, but best think through exactly what that means and how such a settlement would effect component parts. There is no desire in Wales for independence, in fact ~90% are against such so why have it foisted on us? As for NI well that is a political bag of worms.



Tigger	Dec 19 2014, 09:55 PM Post #27
Senior Member Posts: 20,106 Group: Members Member #18 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	In truth the majority of people in England and probably elsewhere in the UK are not particularly keen on yet another layer of pen pushers, lawyers and administrators, even if they laughably claim to be representing us, nationalists like to play games the rest of us just crave competent governance.



Tytoalba	Dec 20 2014, 11:41 PM Post #28
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	Tigger Dec 19 2014, 09:55 PM In truth the majority of people in England and probably elsewhere in the UK are not particularly keen on yet another layer of pen pushers, lawyers and administrators, even if they laughably claim to be representing us, nationalists like to play games the rest of us just crave competent governance. Are you sure. ? Why do the Welsh and Scots believe in another layer of government making their own laws for their own needs in their own assemblies? Do you think that the English are any less patriotic, or less able to pay for their own parliament, elect their own representatives, and make laws in their own best interests? Google it and see what most English want. Poll - Most English want an English Parliament!



RJD	Dec 21 2014, 11:01 AM Post #29
Prudence and Thrift Posts: 12,499 Group: Members Member #9 Joined: Jun 27, 2014	Tytoalba Dec 20 2014, 11:41 PM Tigger Dec 19 2014, 09:55 PM In truth the majority of people in England and probably elsewhere in the UK are not particularly keen on yet another layer of pen pushers, lawyers and administrators, even if they laughably claim to be representing us, nationalists like to play games the rest of us just crave competent governance. Are you sure. ? Why do the Welsh and Scots believe in another layer of government making their own laws for their own needs in their own assemblies? Do you think that the English are any less patriotic, or less able to pay for their own parliament, elect their own representatives, and make laws in their own best interests? Google it and see what most English want. Poll - Most English want an English Parliament! In fact the Welsh were very reluctant to have this additional layer of pen pushers. About 90% of us are against any further independence and I would not be surprised if a referendum today did not rid us of that useless Talking Shop. Despite increases in investment in Wales services such as the NHS and Education have declined further. If you want to see what Milliband has for England then go visit Wales.



Tytoalba	Dec 21 2014, 11:59 PM Post #30
Senior Member Posts: 7,586 Group: Members Member #36 Joined: Jun 29, 2014	RJD Dec 21 2014, 11:01 AM Tytoalba Dec 20 2014, 11:41 PM Tigger Dec 19 2014, 09:55 PM In truth the majority of people in England and probably elsewhere in the UK are not particularly keen on yet another layer of pen pushers, lawyers and administrators, even if they laughably claim to be representing us, nationalists like to play games the rest of us just crave competent governance. Are you sure. ? Why do the Welsh and Scots believe in another layer of government making their own laws for their own needs in their own assemblies? Do you think that the English are any less patriotic, or less able to pay for their own parliament, elect their own representatives, and make laws in their own best interests? Google it and see what most English want. Poll - Most English want an English Parliament! In fact the Welsh were very reluctant to have this additional layer of pen pushers. About 90% of us are against any further independence and I would not be surprised if a referendum today did not rid us of that useless Talking Shop. Despite increases in investment in Wales services such as the NHS and Education have declined further. If you want to see what Milliband has for England then go visit Wales. I live in Wales ,but on the border with England, and am familiar with what goes on on both sides of the border. It was such a pity the referendum was lost to the Welsh Nationalist speaking north , and on a low turnout.



Curious Cdn	Dec 22 2014, 02:38 AM Post #31
Frozen Member Posts: 4,818 Group: Members Member #41 Joined: Jul 1, 2014	Evel should plan some speling lesons for sum of U.



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