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| Political deception and the NHS | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 6 2015, 11:16 AM (2,169 Views) | |
| krugerman | Jan 6 2015, 11:16 AM Post #1 |
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FIrst of all, the very phrase "National Health Service" has always conjoured up the idea of "National" joined up, connected, interlocking service, and one which has served the vast majority of us very well over several generations since its conception almost 70 years ago. The "Health & Social Care Act 2012" has changed everything, the future of the NHS is now one of many different providors, many of them private companies, the future is no longer as a single, connected, joined up "National" service. Deception number 1 - that the NHS will be better after the Tory reforms and mass privatization, how on earth can a splintered, fragmented NHS be better than a truly "National" health service. When the data for Winter waiting times are released for A&E departments across the country, they will show the worst performance since such records began in 2004. The lame excuses will start to come out, it is because of increased demand, it is because of unprecedented illness, its because of an aeging population, its the fault of immigrants, its because of the man in the moon, bad weather, leaves on the line. The real reason, and there is only One reason, is because of a lack of funds, or to put it in other ways, a lack of resources, cuts, not enough money. The real reason why this Winters A&E figures will be the worst on record, is because (1) people cannot get to see their GP, waiting times to see a doctor have risen, thousands of worried people dont want to wait 10 days or a fortnight to visit a GP, instead they go to A&E; (2) Doctors are under unprecedented strain, their workloads have reached breaking point, they are been asked to do more with less, treat more patients in less time for less money, more and more doctors are leaving for Australia and America. Reason number (3) the cuts elsewhere are having a knock-on effect, in particular the cuts to social care is resulting in beds been blocked because frail or vulnerable patients cannot be released, as there is no one to care for them, or insufficient care. Deception number 2 - I will cut the deficit, not the NHS The current funding of the NHS was laid out in the Spending Review of October 2010, in which the NHS was given a promised increase, or at least thats how it looked on paper, and a real terms increase is what the government want you to believe happened. So the actual real terms increase amounted to a staggering and monumental sum of 0.1%, it is an increase, but only just, and about the lowest figure that the government could get away with. But wauit a minute, lets look at the small print of the Spending Review of October 2010, the NHS Budget will contribute to the "Social Care" budget by handing over £1 Billion each year, oh dear, there goes the 0.1% increase, and as Professor John Appleby, chief economist of the King's Fund think-tank said at the time "I think this is a case of double counting". In the final years and months of the last Tory government we saw the annual "Winter Bed Crisis", with patients lying on trolleys in corridors, unacceptable waiting times - and rising, the term "Deja Vu" comes to mind, here we are again. The Health and Social Care Bill 2012 has been a broken promise, the promise of "no top down reorganisation of the NHS", it is deeply unpopular, it was unwanted by every professional body within the NHS, the general public are overwhelmingly opposed to the splintering and privatization of the NHS. Worst of all - the massive reorganisation has cost billions of pounds, money that should have gone into the front line services, into easing the presures of A&E departments which are in crisis through lack of sufficient resources. We must save the NHS - we must get rid of the Tories |
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| RJD | Jan 6 2015, 12:45 PM Post #2 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I think the answer to your question K is that nobody in their right mind would even attempt to run an organisation which is the third largest employer on the Planet, with 1.6m employees, as if it were a single Cost Centre. The Army divides itself into "Divisions" for obvious reasons. Nobody in their right mind would keep functions in-house if serious savings can be made by subcontracting these. And finally everyone who has ever looked closely at the NHS has claimed that massive efficiency gains are to be had through changes in structures and objectives. So when are we going to get some of this. The NHS is not sacrosanct and much of what it does is clearly a complete waste of time and money. Best pressurise that organisation to change before we put another Penny on the table. Even the Head Honcho in the NHS recognises that it has much to deliver. Yep the NHS is creaking, good let it creak some more and get itself sorted out. The biggest joke of all is that the NHS is safe in Labour's hands. |
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 12:49 PM Post #3 |
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I have just listened to one of the coalition spouting 'porkies' on 'Daily Politics', one Norman Lamb, he was asked what was the cause of A&E admissions rising by 20,000 per (day). He struggled to answer the question, but then blurted out a pathetic answer, which was, that more people have multiple diseases\conditions. That, if it's pertinent, it's not, because, people have always had 'multiple' diseases & conditions requiring treatment on the NHS. NO, one of the major causes is mass-uncontrolled immigration into the country, the FACT is the population has increased massively since 2008, whilst funding pro-rata has not, that is a more pertinent reason. The fact is, because politicians of the three main parties(not much longer, hopefully)are scared silly to make any statement regarding immigration as a cause of pressure on health, housing, taxes, et'c, they, in the time-honoured political way, suffer a massive episode of collective amnesia whenever a 'problem' rises it's ugly head & never mention it as a cause of anything. It's funny how virtually all politicians praise mass immigration, yet, not one can quantify with FACTS anything positive resulting from it. Do these same politicians ever visit an NHS GP or NHS hospital, yet fail to notice the make up of these 'patients' in the waiting rooms, of course NOT , they are 'colour' blind or they cannot identify a 'British' person amongst them, even if they did they would refuse to do so. The 'price' of course, hits the 'British' people in their pockets, not that would complain, they are too thick & sheepish to care one iota about anything in particular. Edited by Nonsense, Jan 6 2015, 01:21 PM.
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 01:11 PM Post #4 |
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Well, I think I will agree that the NHS is not safe in 'Labour's' hands, but, neither is it safe in 'Tory' hands either. The fact is, the definition of 'NHS' means different things to different political parties, or at least used to, however since PFI, the definition between them has become something of a credibility gap for all of them. I think that MILLIBAND'S plans are toxic for the NHS. Here's why, he has not explained, where the money is coming from for the 'care' changes, are the funds coming from the NHS budget? If so, does he seriously think that the NHS can carry on as normal after being robbed of this money, if so he needs hospitalisation, in a psychiatric ward. My late mother's sister is in a 'care' home, her son pays her fees, which amount to £3,000 a week paid to her 'private' care home. If health 'privatisation' is so good, where then is the 'competition' & where are the regulative safeguards for patients in such places? My neighbour, who last year sold her bungalow to pay for her 'care' did so against my advice, when she went in to care, the home, a recognized home by 'royalty', would leave her all day with no attendance whatsoever, at a cost of £2,000 per week. One day she fell, left nearly all day, she had to have a window removed to her room, in order for the ambulance men to take her away, she died that same day. Just one incident, she was gone, as for the 'care' that was just typical salesmanship, hot air & no substance. Her son, who never ever visited her at home, save to request money from her, actually pocketed her pension money when she went into 'care', I find it difficult to judge what is worse, the 'care' home or her son, the 'parasite'. |
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| Alberich | Jan 6 2015, 01:32 PM Post #5 |
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"Save the NHS..get rid of the Tories!!!" If only it were that simple (although THAT argument certainly is). First off, Labour "privatised" (farmed out functions of the NHS to private providers,) to a much greater extent than has the coalition government. Secondly, the coalition has ring fenced spending, and increased it, on the NHS year on year; but enough of this yah-boo tooing and froing. No matter who we have in No 10 after the next election, the process of gradual reform will continue, for it simply cannot go on as before, with all demands for more cash met instantly from the exchequer. The NHS is a wonderful concept, and the organisation works miracles in meeting (with varying success) the ever increasing and ever more expensive, demands made upon it. But it is a bottomless bucket. Nor can it be denied that the ever increasing demand on its services has been driven by a number of factors over which it has no control. It can hardly escape ever the most ardent lefty's mind that the new doctors contracts, provided courtesy of Labour, have simply transferred an ever increasing workload onto A@E departments. What government in its right mind would have provided a massive wage increase, while at the same time turning the GP service into a 9x5, five days a week provider of primary health care? Nor can it be denied that it was Labour who opened the doors to virtually unlimited immigration. How many have arrived in the past ten years? 4 million...5 million...more than that? Who knows? But any such large increase in the number of arrivals here, arriving to a free for all health service, can only mean a massive increase in the demand for its services. And the PFI system under which both governments sought to obtain new hospital facilities while leaving the cost "off book" has also resulted in a constant drain on the NHS budget, as interest payments are met year on year. There are probably far too many managers as opposed to clinical staff. There is a shortage of nurses, and doctors, and paying WAY above the odds for agency staff is simply criminal. But by and large the service limps along. It will not collapse if the Tories get in at the nest election. Nor will it suddenly flourish with some massive cash injection if (God forbid) Ed gets the keys to No 10. Reform has to come, no matter who gets in next time round. And a good starting point would be a recognition by both main parties that reforms have to come, and that the best way to achieve this might just be by an all party approach, with political mantras put to one side for the good of all concerned. But I'm not holding my breath. |
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 01:38 PM Post #6 |
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I have used the NHS since it's inception, prior to that, it was a case of paying to see the doctor, as well as paying for the 'medicine'. As a youngster I was seen on multiple occasions each week by the doctor, I had German measles, mumps, I had repeated ear infections(still do)that required penicillin each time, I am hearing aid dependent, I use one very high powered aid, the other ear has lost the ossicles, is completely deaf in that ear, if I remove my aid I cannot hear anything at all, it does have it's benefits as I can either take the aid out or switch it off if a sound is one that I don't want to hear. The NHS has changed much over the decades since it's inception, I blame 'Labour' for changing the administrative structure decades ago & the Tories for bringing in 'managers' to the system. I remember the NHS when it was locally administered, a very good system it was too, our local General Hospital used to have a voluntary supporters group that ran(still do)a canteen for visitors et'c, to raise funds for equipment for the hospital, like MRI,X-Ray machines or incubators. They were fantastic the ladies that organised it, so much is owed to them, most of that is now gone, all thanks to the overbearing nanny state & increasing demands by the world's sick, who think that we owe it to them to 'treat' them. The truth is, this country is 'sick' from it's charity to others, it's THIS country that needs to look after it's own, let the other countries do the same for their 'own' people. |
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| C-too | Jan 6 2015, 01:40 PM Post #7 |
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Honourable Member
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Can you give evidence of parts of the NHS that have been privatised by Labour? I'm genuinely interested in such information. |
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| krugerman | Jan 6 2015, 01:58 PM Post #8 |
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But all of the units, platoons, regiments, battalions and brigades in the British Army are under the direct and ultimate control of the Ministry of Defence; and all the patrol boats, frigates, submarines and naval units, the RAF regiment, Royal Marines, air bases and naval bases are under the direct control of the Ministry of Defence. What use is an NHS where audiology is provided by a completely seperate company to say dentistry, cancer care, orthapedics or mental health services, different companies with different working practices, different procedures, different bosses, different head offices, all in the same building. How can a company who s two main aims in life are (1) to provide a service (2) to make a profit, do better than a service whos only aim is (1) to provide a service ?, the logical outcome can only mean reducing costs, either by lowering terms and conditions, lowering wages, cutting corners, asking staff to do more for less, all for the sake of profit, what happens then ? - we get less qualified, less experienced people, the steady flow of professionals leaving for Australia and elsewhere turns into a flood. Our NHS is part of an international competetive market, we either want the best people providing the best care, or its a race to the bottom. The so called effeciency savings are producing what exactly ? - an A&E service about to buckle under the strain of not enough doctors and nurses, not enough staff, not enough beds, beds blocked through cuts (or is that "efficiency savings"), for how much longer are these so called efficiency savings going to go on. ? Could it possibly be that a run down, slimmed down NHS with a smaller budget, with staff doing more for less, treating more people in less time, is preperation for the private sector to be able to run things at a profit. ? Remember in-house cleaning and what happened when it was all forced out to tender ? The NHS was in far far better shape in 2009, the last government rescued the NHS in 1997 and turned it around, the NHS is now falling apart again, its what the Tories always do, they run the NHS down, and move to take it out of public hands. |
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| Alberich | Jan 6 2015, 02:04 PM Post #9 |
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Neither party will ever move away from the original concept of free medical treatment at the point of delivery, so arguments about the service being safe in the hands of one party, or destroyed in the hands of the other, are academic nonsense. But like Topsy, it has "growed and growed " out of all proportion, and reform is coming, no matter who holds power after the coming election. As for your query, it was Labour that introduced prescription charges. It was Labour that introduced private sector health care for NHS patients. And the biggest "privatisation" of NHS services was the fact that on its inception (for which Labour deserves much credit) was the fact that for some reason the GP service was excluded, and were never nationalised in the first place. They are in effect private businesses under NHS contracts, at great expense. They can quite legally perform private sector work in their surgeries, vaccinations, private consultations, work for legal cases and the like for fees and charges. The GPs arrange their own properties, finance their own practises, hire their own staff, and some even run their own dispensing services. They are a private business in effect, when in fact as a major part of health provision, there is strong argument to suggest that they should have been included in the setting up of a national health service. But my main argument is that the service should be above inter party wrangling and mud slinging. It is too important to all us us for that; and yet I am afraid that for the next five months we are going to get rather a lot of it! |
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 02:04 PM Post #10 |
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The NHS was never intended to do what it now does, just like the Welfare State has become, is NOT what was intended by it's introduction. The NHS treats 'foreigners' who present themselves to doctors or hospitals for 'treatment'. I find it insulting as an Englishman, that when I go to hospital, the receptionist, generally, a 'foreigner', ask me ,"if I have lived in this country for the last 12 months"? These people get treatment at our expense, it is not right that they do so. The NHS does 'cosmetic' surgery for women, bariatric surgery for the obese, cancer treatment for smokers, liver transplants for young alcoholics, treatments for recreational drug takers, overnight stays for drunks, our NHS was NOT created for these purposes, it should be CURTAILED. RTA's are supposed to be paid for from the insurers of cars et'c , we, the public have no proof that this is the case every time someone gets injured on our roads & cyclist-pedestrians should have public insurance as they cause accidents as well. It's time that people of whatever age took responsibility for their own lives in total, that the state should stop taking taxes from the poor, raise their incomes & drastically cut the Welfare State that feeds the failings of the people that have become dependent on it. |
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 02:04 PM Post #11 |
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The NHS was never intended to do what it now does, just like the Welfare State has become, is NOT what was intended by it's introduction. The NHS treats 'foreigners' who present themselves to doctors or hospitals for 'treatment'. I find it insulting as an Englishman, that when I go to hospital, the receptionist, generally, a 'foreigner', ask me ,"if I have lived in this country for the last 12 months"? These people get treatment at our expense, it is not right that they do so. The NHS does 'cosmetic' surgery for women, bariatric surgery for the obese, cancer treatment for smokers, liver transplants for young alcoholics, treatments for recreational drug takers, overnight stays for drunks, our NHS was NOT created for these purposes, it should be CURTAILED. RTA's are supposed to be paid for from the insurers of cars et'c , we, the public have no proof that this is the case every time someone gets injured on our roads & cyclist-pedestrians should have public insurance as they cause accidents as well. It's time that people of whatever age took responsibility for their own lives in total, that the state should stop taking taxes from the poor, raise their incomes & drastically cut the Welfare State that feeds the failings of the people that have become dependent on it. Edited by Nonsense, Jan 6 2015, 02:06 PM.
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| RJD | Jan 6 2015, 02:05 PM Post #12 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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The NHS is a Political football to be kicked around. Labour at ever GE make exactly the same claims, raise and instil fear in the hearts ofd the ignorant masses. The only think that Labour can claim was a success, that is questionable, since WW2, is the establishment of the NHS. It is absolute proven balderdash that the only way of ensuring that medicine and care for all is free at the point of delivery is if it is run by the State. They confuse funding and delivery for political reasons. I do not believe that the NHS is safe in Labour's hands, I doubt it will, in it's present form, be safe in anyones. Demographics, funding and above all "what is the NHS for" will dictate. Like the EU this is the pressing big debate that we have not yet had. Clearly throwing money at the NHS without first establishing objectives would be a mistake and claiming that the current problems, whatever they are, can all be resolved with a £1b extra from Mansion Taxes is pure BS. £1b in £120b is white noise. We also have to ask the fundamental questions of: 1). Why is the NHS spending a disproportionate amount on the aged. (>70% I have read) 2). Why is the NHS treated as if it were a provider of the care that should take place in specialised Nursing Homes? 3). Why is the A&E suddenly become an extension of local GP Practices? 4). Why is the NHS not charging those that do not contribute to it's running costs? 5). Why is the NHS spending so much time and resources on those that are about to die? 6). Why are GPs undertaking so little work that is actually to do with health and restricting it's activities to filing Prescriptions. GPs can also set splints etc. 7). Why are we spending so little on prevention? 8). Why do we tolerate that so many people abuse the service with no-shows, physical and/or abusive language to NHS Employees? The NHS can no longer put out it's hand and expect to be instantly filled. Those days are long over. Time some of them woke up and smelled the coffee. |
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| Nonsense | Jan 6 2015, 02:15 PM Post #13 |
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What really makes me angry, is that the country is 'run' by politicians who have never done anything in their lives & if they have were basically stealing money from people through overcharging on goods or services to line their pockets(thieves in other words). When we have such people running the show, we mustn't be surprised when it all goes pear-shaped, that's the only reason for 'democracy', so that the crew on the sinking ship can play 'musical' chairs come election time. |
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| C-too | Jan 6 2015, 02:24 PM Post #14 |
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Prescription charges were first introduced in 1952 at 1/-. They were abolished in 1965 by Labour and reintroduced in 1968 by Labour. But I don't doubt you understand, that was a charge for the benefit of the NHS. IIRC the use of private sector health care paid for by the NHS was used to reduce the backlog of operations Labour inherited in 1997. The private sector in this country was used and some people were sent to France for operations. All free at the point of use by the patient. Not really privatisation IMO. It was claimed at the time that without doctors having some freedom of practice within the NHS there would have been no NHS. I agree with your final point. |
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| RJD | Jan 6 2015, 02:29 PM Post #15 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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That is a matter for a separate thread and yes I to despair that we have to put trust in the likes of Milliband, Balls, Cameron, Clegg and Osborne to take such decisions. Whilst you could claim Cameron might have learned a bit it is blatantly obvious that Milliband has learned nothing, but that fool could be our PM come June. |
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| Affa | Jan 6 2015, 02:31 PM Post #16 |
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You say "no longer" as if it ever was affordable in Conservatives minds. As long as I can remeber the Conservatives have tried to bring in reforms that they argue would make the NHS more efficient - and guess what, Costs kept rising. The argument that the NHS needed reforms 'because it was inefficient, too costly' carries zero weight. Every structural reform be it the Internal Market, or part privatisation has ADDED to costs. The Tories have one method of cutting NHS costs that does save money - and that is cutting services, a policy of creating a worse NHS. |
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| RJD | Jan 6 2015, 02:50 PM Post #17 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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The NHS has long required reform even in Labour's mind. The last Gov. commenced most of the reforms that are current with this lot. The so called "privatisation" of the NHS (joke) started with that serial Scouse liar Andy Pandy. Every report on the NHS commissioned by the last Gov. asked for improvements in productivity. Try reading them from Wanless onwards. By the way such productivity declined each and every year from 1997 onwards. So if you do not believe such improvements are possible well go tell the so called Experts. Me I know that at least £1b can be saved each year from smarter purchasing. Agreed the last lot increased the number of Bean-counters. What for? Agreed the last lot improved GP's pay and conditions making them the best paid in the EU. What for? Sometimes it is necessary to cut out a cancer to improve the health of the Patient. Claiming that this Gov. has not increased the financial resources allocated to the NHS is a blatant lie. |
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| Affa | Jan 6 2015, 03:10 PM Post #18 |
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Bringing in US Health Care experts to advise on NHS reforms was to me complete idiocy ........ US health care costs per head of population being twice UK costs. The very opposite has occupied minds in the US during their own Health Care crisis debates - pointing to the UK and the NHS as the best example of how it should be done. |
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| avagrumble | Jan 6 2015, 04:09 PM Post #19 |
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I have said before on here, the main reason the hospitals are being inundated is because the population of England has increased enormously in the last five years. I know I will be challenged on that by SteveyK who will no doubt bring his graphs out to show me I am wrong. But just take the case of my local hospital, in the last two years in a seven mile radius of, they have built at least five thousand dwellings, (high rise flats/apartments and houses, and still they are building in every available space.If you say four persons to a dwelling, thats twenty thousand perspective patients to that hospital. What was the figure again that was shouted to, or by the government? "We need to build two hundred and fifty thousand houses a year for the next twenty years" UNBELIEVABLE....They think we are as big as America or Australia. Why should Britain feel they have to house the world. |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 6 2015, 04:21 PM Post #20 |
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When asked why several NHS trsuts were declaring major incidents the person responsible said that it was not lack of money but lack of doctors and nurses, especially A & E. If there are not enough of these in the country, in the short term, where would you like us to magic these critical staff from? |
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| krugerman | Jan 6 2015, 04:51 PM Post #21 |
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The idea that the current crisis in the NHS has something to do with immigration is utterly ridiculous. One of the hospitals in crisis is my local District General Hospital, the area served by Scarborough Hospital has one of the lowest proportions of ethnic minorities in the country. We use population estimates and censuses to plan for public services, thats the whole point of calculating population changes and movements. The funding settlement for the NHS announced in October 2010 is one of the worst since the creation of the NHS in 1948, and It is the first time there has been such a sustained period of small rises. |
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| Rich | Jan 6 2015, 07:27 PM Post #22 |
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The biggest myth is that it needs more money, I say that the NHS is awash with money and is struggling to find useless projects to spend it on before the end of the financial year, god forbid that it should be used to attract more doctors and nurses from our own shores as opposed to paying bucket loads to entice foreign ones and paying double the wage rate for agency workers. the simple reason that the NHS is under stress once again is simply demand, the numbers requiring treatment is higher than can be coped with therefore the answer is to cut the numbers coming into this country....fxxk the EU and it's diktats.....let them whistle, after all, we pay enough every day just for them to tell us what we can and cannot do, it is high time that we called their bluff and stood up for common sense and practicality, what can they do to us anyway? ...........fine us, BIG DEAL, just tell them to pee off and try to do something constructive for once. |
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| Happy Hornet | Jan 6 2015, 08:13 PM Post #23 |
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I think the main reason people like to blame the problems the NHS is facing on immigration is because it's a simple solution and it absolves them of any responsibility. From what I can gather immigration is a factor but it pales in comparison to the strain caused by an ever increasing elderly population, the obesity epidemic and alcohol and smoking related illnesses and injuries. I wonder how many of those here blaming immigration are themselves overweight, are smokers or fond of a tipple? It would help immensely if we all resolved to eat, drink and smoke less and got more exercise. But nah, that would mean actually doing something ourselves wouldn't it? So just dismiss everything I've said as lefty twaddle and stuff another burger in your gob, crack open another bottle and blame it all on immigrants. Edited by Happy Hornet, Jan 6 2015, 08:13 PM.
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| Tigger | Jan 6 2015, 08:29 PM Post #24 |
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Change the record, immigration and the EU are not major problems for the NHS, after all the service is awash with perhaps hundreds of thousands of immigrants who are far better qualified than you and actually do something worthwhile in hospitals. |
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| Tigger | Jan 6 2015, 08:40 PM Post #25 |
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You once again along with other right wingers see the NHS as a business proposition, it is not and every time it is referred to in such terms the right haemorrhages votes, good. People are not units or quantifiable in time and motion studies, needs by definition are tailored to the individuals that use the service, by all means effect savings and improve the service with better management of resources but loading it down with accountants, business managers and money men has proved to be a disaster in much of the private sector so why thing the same ethos will actually work for a public service? All I'm seeing on this thread from certain individuals is the politics of envy right wing style and a heap of I'm all right Jack stuff the NHS. Edited by Tigger, Jan 6 2015, 08:41 PM.
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| johnofgwent | Jan 6 2015, 10:21 PM Post #26 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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The biggest political deception is that there is "an nhs" Thanks to blairs destroying the united kingdom and devolving health we have four health services none of which do what the people need |
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| Tytoalba | Jan 6 2015, 11:54 PM Post #27 |
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No one is going to 'save' the NHS in its current form. The growing demands being made upon it it exceeds the capacity to service it from taxpayers money alone. Its not the shortage of money that is creating the problem, it is the constantly growing demand with population growth and a growing ageing population. There are more Doctors nurses and auxiliary staff today than there were ten years years ago, with many new hospitals, and a growth in funding year on year. The situation can only get worse unless radical steps can be taken, and the first of those steps has to be funding from patients themselves , for surgery visits and hospital inpatients. The NHS dental system has been run on those lines for some years, and we do not hear complaints about the dental service. |
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| Tytoalba | Jan 7 2015, 12:03 AM Post #28 |
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Your NHS is akin to the sacred cows wandering the streets of India, making a mess of the streets and blocking real progress for pedestrians and cars Only when that concept is destroyed will we get real progress.. There are too many believers in the NHS as a sacred cow. |
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| Tigger | Jan 7 2015, 12:09 AM Post #29 |
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Senior Member
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I suspect you have false teeth. Simple solution to the NHS problems, stop treating whiney, sickly and unproductive over seventy fives and concentrate the care on those who are younger and offer a more productive future. And the latest Tory wheeze after they "win" the next election is to slash the education budget! Remove these vermin who only care about themselves and the pointless silver rinse Nazi's who support them. Someone had to say it didn't they?
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| Tigger | Jan 7 2015, 12:12 AM Post #30 |
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Senior Member
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The only shit blocking this street is coming from your keyboard." "My NHS" has served me and my family well you selfish waste of space! Oh, and I've almost certainly paid more than my share into it's coffers......... |
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| krugerman | Jan 7 2015, 12:19 AM Post #31 |
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Regular Member
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The only shit blocking this street is coming from your keyboard." "My NHS" has served me and my family well you selfish waste of space! Oh, and I've almost certainly paid more than my share into it's coffers... ____________________________________________________________ And I second that proposition |
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| Steve K | Jan 7 2015, 12:52 AM Post #32 |
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Once and future cynic
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Oh dear Ava if you want to start an insult war don't do it with an idiotically formatted post - why do you use excess carriage returns in your posts? But to the substance of your post. yes I will challenge it. The population increase is not THE reason it is ONE reason. As I posted yesterday, the problem with Cameron's promises was not the myth that they were broken but that just maintaining spend in real terms was never enough to cope with expectations given - yes an increasing population - but also an ageing population - and a plethora of highly expensive fringe cures being developed for the US baby boomers For those that blame immigration and migration (and yes both have been excessive) I suggest you go look at your nearest hospital. They would completely collapse without migrants. We have a fundamental problem in that the NHS at birth was predicated on the idea of cheap labour and excessive junior doctor hours. Well the British born medically qualified don't like either and they can and many do get double wages overseas. And for those that think the NHS is as efficient as it can get please open your eyes next time you are in an A&E treatment area. Good people with good equipment doing their best with sod all leadership. You literally see several people moving papers from A to B sometimes reading them and others move it back from B to A and NOTHING gets done because they are waiting for a leader to tell them what to do. You see staff spending ages answering questions from concerned relatives because they don't provide even basic information to the patient. It screams out for a real organisation to take it over. Even Group 4 couldn't do it worse. |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 7 2015, 06:54 AM Post #33 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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From its inception the nhs dental service had a VERY different model to its general practice counterpart. When my mother worked for one as a receptionist and book keeper the surgery was funded entirely on a per capita basis. The GP was paid for having a patient on his book and had no requirement to do anything except sit on his fat srse to get his loot. In stark contrast the nhs dentists in the same building were paid nothing until they actually DID SOME WORK The nhs dental service in wales was of course destroyed by thatcher whose "new deal" on per treatment fees in the 80s caused EVERY dentist to stop treating adult patients eith oredictable results. |
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| C-too | Jan 7 2015, 08:32 AM Post #34 |
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Honourable Member
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Apparently NHS trusts froze recruitment of staff in 2010/2011, there is some indication of recruitment beginning to take place again. In the meantime the requirement of NHS staff numbers has been ignored and the numbers of staff that have left have not been replaced. |
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| Pro Veritas | Jan 7 2015, 08:44 AM Post #35 |
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Upstanding Member
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The idea that immigration has no effect on the current crisis is utterly ridiculous. Immigration is not the major cause of the current crisis, but it is a significant contributory factor. Most GP surgeries are significantly over-subscribed, and the largest driver of that over-subscription is immigration. I was at my GP's on Monday (I have a chest infection), the waiting rooms were busy (above average levels) but not full to bursting as they can sometimes be on a Monday morning. Lots of people there with the same problem as me - a long lingering cold that has turned into a respiratory infection, in fact two of my work colleagues were also there with that exact issue. Judging by the conversations people were having with the reception staff a lot of people (esp the elderly and children) were being sent for chest scans as well as being prescribed drugs. It took one receptionist just 90 seconds to explain the outpatient booking process to one mother and child; three minutes later it then took her 5+ minutes to explain the same process to a (judging by the accent) Lithuanian mother and child. Are you saying this threefold increase in "face time" to explain a simple process is having no impact on GPs' surgeries ability to cope with the number of people they are seeing? Because that is what you do need to be saying for your earlier statement to be true. Between my immediate family we use three different GP surgeries in the local town, all of them have been severely impacted by immigration. To get an appointment at my father's GP surgery you need to book 2 weeks in advance or get a referral from the 111 service. How many people are aware that they will be ill in two weeks time? That's right none - and the people who then can't get an appointment trundle off to A&E. This morning's news had a statement from a senior A&E manager saying that the current swathe of "internal major incidents" are pretty much ALL caused by people using A&E when they can't get the assistance they need at other points in the care-chain - mainly their GP. This IS an issue where Immigration has an impact; and you pretending otherwise is very dishonest. Immigration may not be the "root cause" but it is 100% without doubt a contributory causal factor. To remedy a problem one must first correctly identify the problem; by deliberately muddying the water on identifying the problem you make it less likely for a remedy to be forthcoming. That you do so simply to preserve your chosen ideology rather than accepting the facts of the matter is deeply concerning. All The Best |
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| Marconi | Jan 7 2015, 08:46 AM Post #36 |
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Regular Member
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It is a sacred cow, and like the majority of people on here, I have put in more than I have taken out. And I hope that continues so that others get the treatment they deserve. And you are joking about dental care? The English are the butt of jokes across the world for having bad teeth. |
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| Pro Veritas | Jan 7 2015, 08:48 AM Post #37 |
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Upstanding Member
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This is dishonest in the extreme. No one is saying that some immigrants don't contribute to the running of the NHS. But to go from "without immigrants the NHS would collapse" to "immigrants have no effect on the current problems in the NHS" is just wrong - and you know it. Immigration has made it harder for most people to see their GP. People not being able to see their GP are attending A&E in record numbers. A&E departments are declaring "internal major incidents" in record numbers. Yet according to "Honest Steve" immigration isn't a causal factor in the current immediate problems in A&E? Yeah, right. All The Best |
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| RJD | Jan 7 2015, 08:49 AM Post #38 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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According to the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, more than £2 billion a year is wasted on needless treatments. Billions more go on pointless layers of poor managers, red tape and shoddy computers that impede rather than improve work. Reports show that at least £1b PA can be saved from smarter purchasing. As for A&E overloads where ~30% are not considered to be an "emergency" unravel the cack-handed contracts awarded to GPs by NL which gave them a lot more money for a lot less out of normal hours working. |
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| Happy Hornet | Jan 7 2015, 09:07 AM Post #39 |
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Senior Member
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PV, as I have said already of course immigration is a contributing factor anyone who says otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land imo. However anyone who says that it's the biggest or sole cause of all of the NHS problems is the prime minister of cloud cuckoo land. Now I appreciate that this does not apply to you, but when people cite immigration as the main or sole cause of the problem when it clearly isn't do you not see how this can be viewed as people simply advancing their own agenda and derailing a desperately needed debate on this subject? |
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| krugerman | Jan 7 2015, 11:39 AM Post #40 |
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Regular Member
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According to the census, the Borough of Scarborough has a percentage of immigrant, Asian, black or ethnic minority population far lower than the national average, infact less than half the national average. Around 3 years ago a group of Scarborough s small Muslim population wanted to convert a derelict building into a small Islamic community centre, it would have been the only one of its kind in the entire borough, and it was noted at the time that most of the people involved actually worked as medical professionals at Scarborough Hospital. My point here is that with Scarborough Hospital been one of the hospitals to declare a "major incident" due to a struggling A&E department, how does immigration play a role, bearing in mind that Scarborough has a very small proportion of immigrants / people of ethnic minority. Between the two censuses of 2001 - 2011, the population of the entire borough, which includes three towns, rose by just 2000. I accept that in some areas of the country, immigration may have an effect, but here in North Yorkshire, I doubt that very much. If those areas of the country which have seen huge influxes of migrant workers / immigrants, such as Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire, then surely the normal thing to do would be to provide more services, more teachers, more doctors, after all, the rise in population means more people are paying income tax, council tax, VAT, petrol duty, alcohol duty, tobacco duty. |
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