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| Political deception and the NHS | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 6 2015, 11:16 AM (2,170 Views) | |
| krugerman | Jan 6 2015, 11:16 AM Post #1 |
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FIrst of all, the very phrase "National Health Service" has always conjoured up the idea of "National" joined up, connected, interlocking service, and one which has served the vast majority of us very well over several generations since its conception almost 70 years ago. The "Health & Social Care Act 2012" has changed everything, the future of the NHS is now one of many different providors, many of them private companies, the future is no longer as a single, connected, joined up "National" service. Deception number 1 - that the NHS will be better after the Tory reforms and mass privatization, how on earth can a splintered, fragmented NHS be better than a truly "National" health service. When the data for Winter waiting times are released for A&E departments across the country, they will show the worst performance since such records began in 2004. The lame excuses will start to come out, it is because of increased demand, it is because of unprecedented illness, its because of an aeging population, its the fault of immigrants, its because of the man in the moon, bad weather, leaves on the line. The real reason, and there is only One reason, is because of a lack of funds, or to put it in other ways, a lack of resources, cuts, not enough money. The real reason why this Winters A&E figures will be the worst on record, is because (1) people cannot get to see their GP, waiting times to see a doctor have risen, thousands of worried people dont want to wait 10 days or a fortnight to visit a GP, instead they go to A&E; (2) Doctors are under unprecedented strain, their workloads have reached breaking point, they are been asked to do more with less, treat more patients in less time for less money, more and more doctors are leaving for Australia and America. Reason number (3) the cuts elsewhere are having a knock-on effect, in particular the cuts to social care is resulting in beds been blocked because frail or vulnerable patients cannot be released, as there is no one to care for them, or insufficient care. Deception number 2 - I will cut the deficit, not the NHS The current funding of the NHS was laid out in the Spending Review of October 2010, in which the NHS was given a promised increase, or at least thats how it looked on paper, and a real terms increase is what the government want you to believe happened. So the actual real terms increase amounted to a staggering and monumental sum of 0.1%, it is an increase, but only just, and about the lowest figure that the government could get away with. But wauit a minute, lets look at the small print of the Spending Review of October 2010, the NHS Budget will contribute to the "Social Care" budget by handing over £1 Billion each year, oh dear, there goes the 0.1% increase, and as Professor John Appleby, chief economist of the King's Fund think-tank said at the time "I think this is a case of double counting". In the final years and months of the last Tory government we saw the annual "Winter Bed Crisis", with patients lying on trolleys in corridors, unacceptable waiting times - and rising, the term "Deja Vu" comes to mind, here we are again. The Health and Social Care Bill 2012 has been a broken promise, the promise of "no top down reorganisation of the NHS", it is deeply unpopular, it was unwanted by every professional body within the NHS, the general public are overwhelmingly opposed to the splintering and privatization of the NHS. Worst of all - the massive reorganisation has cost billions of pounds, money that should have gone into the front line services, into easing the presures of A&E departments which are in crisis through lack of sufficient resources. We must save the NHS - we must get rid of the Tories |
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| krugerman | Jan 11 2015, 03:42 PM Post #121 |
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We have just seen a private health care company (Circle) walk away from a contract because they cannot make it pay, and those of us with an ounce of common decency argue that our NHS is not meant to "pay out" to private companies like Circle, it is a public service that should not be for sale. |
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| Tytoalba | Jan 11 2015, 04:16 PM Post #122 |
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Everything needs to be addressed according to the ways practices and laws of today, and today we have equality of gender. If we train people of course we should get something back and that could be done by contractual means, without curtailing freedom of individuals over the longer run. . I had a young neighbour who signed up to join the Army for a set period of time, and they paid for her fees and costs. Those that do not agree with the conditions have no need to agree to them, they just pay their own way like many overseas students already do. We need to look for the best way forward for the greater good of the citizens of our country . |
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| Affa | Jan 11 2015, 04:24 PM Post #123 |
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Not better, but maintained. You may hear demands for a 'better' service once Tory reforms "for improvement" have taken their toll. but it is only when there is a crisis (as now) that you ever here demands for a better NHS. As far as I am aware none of the arguments put forward by the coalition have been centred on cutting 'costs'. Their whole rhetoric has been about improving efficiency and delivery ..... improving the NHS. And as such these reforms have been a disaster, an utter failure! |
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| Tytoalba | Jan 11 2015, 04:24 PM Post #124 |
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What we need to do is to get rid of the politically obsessed who are more concerned with party gain than the good of us all. Perhaps the funding should come from a precept on income tax, but separate from it, just like national insurance, with any increase in need of funding just added to it for all to pay. The more we demand of the services the more we all pay towards them Then the cost and spending can be readily identified, and the cost fall upon everyone without it being used as a political football or the subject "weaponised" for party political gain. |
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| Steve K | Jan 11 2015, 06:47 PM Post #125 |
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Once and future cynic
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Do the maths The bank bail out was a one off £141B, most of it repayable and a lot has been repaid, some at a profit to the taxpayer Since the crisis started the government has poured over 5 times as much at £814B into the NHS and another £132B will go this year. None of it is repayable so of course none has been repaid Doesn't even remotely compare does it? |
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| Rich | Jan 11 2015, 06:59 PM Post #126 |
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"The only people who want the privatization of hospitals and health services are the Conservative Party, they should know that this is a vote loser, I am perplexed as to why they risked their political life by going ahead with this, and todays news will only ram home the blunt truth, that Tory policy on the NHS is a disaster." https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/kailash-chand/moment-of-honesty-is-required-new-labour-began-dismantling-of-our-nhs Please give a fair and balanced statement in future. Edited by Rich, Jan 11 2015, 07:00 PM.
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| Deleted User | Jan 11 2015, 07:07 PM Post #127 |
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I agree. The Tories have tirelessly worked to demonise,poor people who are disenfranchised from the mainstream NHS services, unions , old people , foreigners and time wasters ( not necessarily in that order) in an attempt soften us up into accepting a privatised health service.Get the people to hate ' big government' services first then get the private sector to supply an inferior service. |
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| Tigger | Jan 11 2015, 07:31 PM Post #128 |
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I have done the maths and I'm rather perplexed. We'll almost certainly lose money bailing out the banks, Magraret Hodge who sits on the Treasury Select Committee commented a few weeks ago this could amount to £60bn, let alone the carnage cused in the wider economy by all this. And it seems rather strange to me to be comparing the bailing out of corrupt and incompetent PRIVATE banks with taxpayers money with the entirely legitimate funding of a public service most of us will end up using. Oh, and the Funding for Lending scheme comes to an end later this month, you know where the taxpayer gave an estimated £42bn to the banks (since 2012) to er re lend to the taxpayer, sadly they kept most of it but don't worry there are provisions in place that will see that same taxpayer reap a handsome profit, so we are told........... Edited by Tigger, Jan 11 2015, 07:32 PM.
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| Affa | Jan 11 2015, 07:54 PM Post #129 |
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That's how they do it ......... wreck public services, make them fail, put them in crisis, and then claim 'Government is lousy at running services, the Private sector do it a lot better'. And gullible followers swallow every word of it. The NHS is once more in crisis because once more the Tories have their hands on it. If they truly desired to deliver a better NHS then a better NHS is what we would have ..... but doing so would defeat their ideological opposition to 'Big Government', and ideology always wins through. |
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| Affa | Jan 11 2015, 08:06 PM Post #130 |
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Well, eh, no it doesn't; Regardless of everything else that took place in this time scale, the money spent on the NHS was always needed (unless you advocate doing away with all health care), and is not a rescue policy instead it's an INVESTMENT in people's good health ......... without which none of us here would be exchanging opinions on anything. The country would be degenerate. |
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| Rich | Jan 11 2015, 10:49 PM Post #131 |
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When I first started work way back in 69 I paid my subscription as did everyone else into a scheme then known as National health INSURANCE, now as we all know, one day an insurance policy will mature and should one need to make good use of it it is beholden to the policy provider (government) to honour that policy in the most efficient manner possible. Successive governments of all colours have not honoured those policies, in fact they have fxxxxd up the NHS by continually pixxxxg about with it, if ever there was a case for getting back to basics then this is it, do away with the top tiers and let matrons tell the doctors what they will be doing and train new doctors to understand the ever faster moving technological advances in medical science. As for the nursing staff, matron and ward sisters will keep those in line and well trained. |
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| Affa | Jan 11 2015, 11:15 PM Post #132 |
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So despite repeated posts proving the NHS gives value for money there still persists this undercurrent that insists the NHS is unaffordable. The sixth wealthiest country on the planet cannot afford what others do afford and spend more on .......... or the real argument is that this is entirely about Party politics and different ideologies. What is actually lacking is honesty, and that begins at the top, with the PM. Edited by Affa, Jan 11 2015, 11:18 PM.
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| Steve K | Jan 11 2015, 11:17 PM Post #133 |
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Once and future cynic
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Perhaps you should read what my post was responding to. |
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| krugerman | Jan 12 2015, 07:46 AM Post #134 |
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Dear Mr Cameron and Mr. Hunt As someone who works in A&E, I hear with interest that you have said that things in A&E are just busy and we are preforming well and not in a crisis. I though, would disagree. Maybe it is just your sense of reality, which has made you say this or perhaps a lack of comprehension of the words busy Vs crisis. Is it not a crisis that up and down the country thousands and thousands of patients are being looked after in corridors because there are no free cubicles for them to be seen in? Is it not a crisis that many hospitals are declaring major incidents (to just cope with normal winter pressures) and some are having tents built in their car parks? Is it not a crisis that patients who need discharging from the hospital can't because social services can't cope with demand? This means there are no free beds for the patients to go to and so they stay in A&E for hours upon hours. Is it not a crisis when thousands of patients are having their operations cancelled because there are no beds for them to get into? Is it not a crisis when every department in the county cannot recruit A&E doctors and nurses because they are emigrating or changing specialty because of the relentless pressure? Is it not a crisis when everyday A&E staff up and down the country thinks it is a good shift, if we get a cup of tea, no member of staff is in tears and no one dies in the corridor on our watch? (As opposed to deliver the standard and dignity of care we wish) Or are you saying it is not a crisis because you don't want to admit the real problem and are a tad embarrassed by your mistakes. Because when you came to power you promised to invest in the NHS and not re-organise it. But actually you lied. Health and social care are inextricably linked and you stripped money away from social care whilst still finding the money for tax cuts for millionaires. But worse still, instead of trying to modernise and improve the NHS (which it needs) and working to prevent an absolutely predictable crisis, you spent the time and billions of wasted pounds on an ideological drive to increase the role of the private sector into the NHS, which has just put profits before patients. The reality is that the crisis (yes it is a crisis not just busy) in the NHS, is shown up in the corridors of the A&E departments. And if you don't believe me, please join any of the thousand of A&E staff up and down the country whom are all going through the same problems. Then reality might kick in; seeing people in their 90s lying in a corridor as there is no bed to go to, patients who need to go to intensive care staying for hours upon hours in A&E whilst their condition deteriorates, ambulance staff not being able to get to 999 calls as they are waiting to get their current patients into A&E, nurses not having time to care for patients – just provide treatment, and for the consultants on the shop floor trying to create order and safety in a chaotic environment. We are so lucky to have the training and skills to do the jobs we do – but we just need you to make it possible for us to perform the job we love to appropriate standards. It may be hard for all of us who work in A&E, but it is nothing compared to what our patients have to endure. But amazingly it is them that keep us going - with humor, good will and not complaining about us despite everything going on, along with a diabetic inducing amount of chocolate being bought for us Mr Hunt and Cameron – I also want to ask you why you think we are performing well? You say it is because around 85-95% of patients get seen and discharged or admitted with 4 hours. (still the worst figures since we started recording this data.) But that hides the reality. It is easy to boost this percentage with easy patients with cuts and colds and minor injuries – but what about the care for the patients who are genuinely sick - the ones who need admission. How quickly do they get seen and admitted? That is the figure that should be made available but isn’t. I don't know what the numbers are, but from recent experience from up and down the country, I doubt that at the moment half of patients who get admitted do so within 4 hours from when they arrive; remember delayed admission leads to worse outcomes. Please start releasing this important figure as it will give a much better barometer for how the NHS is doing. So Mr Hunt and Mr. Cameron – come down to any A&E and see the crisis/’just busy’ and when you do so, listen to the staff who can explain what needs to be done as opposed to listen to your political advisors. In A&Es throughout the country, we are buckling under the strain and it is only because of everyone's hard works and dedication that patient care is being maintained to the extent it is and morale hasn't yet cracked. It feels that we in the NHS (from porters, to managers, to nurses, to support staff, to paramedics, to hospitals doctor and GPs) are lions being led by donkeys. We are facing 1930’s public sector cuts driven by politicians with the mentality of world war one generals. So in summary - please Cameron and Hunt, stop thinking about your political ideology and start thinking about our patients. Remember the NHS was set up after world war two during a period of unprecedented austerity – stop destroying it under the name of austerity. Rob Galloway (A&E Consultant) |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 12 2015, 11:09 AM Post #135 |
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This is a very interesting post. I am not at all convinced by the ideological position that all critical public services should be nationalised. With the NHS that problem is clearly a funding shortfall. Germany and France pay 2% more of their GDP for health care. I wonder what the UK spends that 2% on. So privatisation of the NHS. If we take cleaners for example assuming that cleaning is not rocket science there are 3 ways to make it cheaper: 1 Get more work out of the cleaners 2 Pay the cleaners less 3 Clean less Furthermore if the contracted cleaning services were not up to scratch then it is the responsibility of the contract manager (a NHS employee) to deal with this. |
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| Affa | Jan 12 2015, 02:12 PM Post #136 |
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"Cuts Cost Money" This mantra of mine is again relevant on reading this OP. We have surgeons idle, their theatre staff twiddling their fingers, the anaesthetist wondering what to do with his spare time, and all because operations are cancelled because there are no spare beds on the wards - bed shortage means no nursing staff, a shortage of nurses not beds. And so any savings from cutting the number of nurses results in more patients suffering longer waits for operations and surgeons remaining idle instead of practising. Money down the drain. This on top of the increased costs from Tory cuts to NHS services, social services, and the closing of units. It's easy to believe that they are deliberately wrecking the NHS ......... and so will put up their hands and tell us it needs reforms only the Private Sector can deliver. |
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| krugerman | Jan 12 2015, 02:27 PM Post #137 |
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![]() ABSOLUTELY |
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| Steve K | Jan 12 2015, 02:36 PM Post #138 |
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Once and future cynic
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well I won't say ""only" but I will say "well placed" |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 12 2015, 03:07 PM Post #139 |
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Is it the government who decides where the cuts are made at an operational level or the NHS managers? Therefore who is making the cuts that are costing money? |
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| Affa | Jan 12 2015, 03:10 PM Post #140 |
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Steve, with respect, but the 'ONLY' reform needed for the NHS is to be rid of the Tory influence. For ten years before 1997 there was the 'NHS in Crisis' occupying political debate, press columns, and public concerns. For ten years after 1997 there were no such debates, press columns, public concerns. On the return of the Tories to the Cabinet, so has the 'Crisis in the NHS' returned. |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 12 2015, 04:25 PM Post #141 |
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So the purchasing of drugs, which is in effect corporate welfare for our pharmacuetical industry, doesn't need reform? What you said about beds and operations is begging for reform in itself. No point having a doctor if you haven't got a bed
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| Steve K | Jan 12 2015, 04:35 PM Post #142 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well with respect that's not true is it. In 2002 the National Audit Office reported that there was a real issue with waiting times and under both administrations from 1990 to 2010 there were significant real terms increases in using other people's money to ramp up NHS funding But as always, sooner or later you run out of other people's money to spend. I see no single party able to deliver the NHS the people want. We need a national debate to move both the expectations and feasible offerings closer together. Just making wild arsed guesses about what could be achieved with other people's money isn't going to cut it, not even close |
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| Affa | Jan 12 2015, 05:00 PM Post #143 |
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With lessening respect it is entirely true, and your reference does not contradict it in any way. A saying of yours (and RJD) that I have never before resorted too but do so now = you compare apples with pears. Worse you compare rotten apples to succulent pears that have presented a logistical problem simply because of their fruitfulness. A crisis is only a crisis when there is a crisis. A problem is something else. Edited by Affa, Jan 12 2015, 05:02 PM.
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| Steve K | Jan 12 2015, 05:08 PM Post #144 |
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Once and future cynic
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No Affa you said that "For ten years after 1997 there were no such debates, press columns, public concerns." and I decided the crisis of 1999 was a bit unfair to use to show that was bollocks so gave you an issue slap bang in the middle of your ten year span Had you actually looked to see if what you imagined was true before you posted it? Have you actually looked to see how much the use of other people's money went up in real terms to try and keep the NHS going? I think we all know the answers. This is debate Affa, it is not about who can post bollocks |
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| Affa | Jan 12 2015, 05:51 PM Post #145 |
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Define 'Crisis' and tell me when it had any relevance to the NHS (as a whole) and relates to what is now called a 'crisis'. When were there queues getting longer outside A&E, when were surgeons cancelling operations because of a dearth of nursing staff on the wards, and when were the Government telling us it was unaffordable? I'll look up 'bollocks' after you reply. |
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| Steve K | Jan 12 2015, 06:07 PM Post #146 |
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Once and future cynic
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Why should I Affa ? You don't acknowledge when people respond to your questions and you don't respond to questions yourself do you? If you had answers then surely we'd see them But have a freebie "Bollocks" is a term whose original meaning as recognised in UK law actually refers to the inane ramblings of novice priests And as you asked clearly hoping again I could not deliver then The BBC 1999 report titled "NHS in Crisis" |
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| Affa | Jan 12 2015, 06:42 PM Post #147 |
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Answers to what? I made a statement, you disagreed, and gave a link to concerns that some hospitals were accused of fiddling the numbers as evidence of the NHS being under 'crisis' when Labour were in government ........ you are better than that I thought! Believe it or not I do try to restrict the number of words posted ....... I'm not that good about getting my point across in a few words (Marconi is a master), and so fail more often than I succeed. I use the tried and tested industrial technique of limiting duplication of effort - I hate repeating myself, but alas find myself doing it all the time. I hate repeating myself, but alas find myself doing it all the time. I hate repeating myself, but alas find myself doing it all the time. |
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| Steve K | Jan 12 2015, 08:16 PM Post #148 |
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Once and future cynic
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Oh dear Affa you do like your snide comments You ask "What Questions?" How quick you forget here's a link And that NHS you said was going so swimmingly that that NAO report on fiddling performance figures was as nothing. Well maybe it wasn't disconnected from this: 2002: 70,000 patients have operations cancelled just the day before You can keep on telling us that the NHS was perfect under Labour if you like with that "For ten years after 1997 there were no such debates, press columns, public concerns.", it's your reputation you're going to bury |
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| Affa | Jan 13 2015, 08:18 AM Post #149 |
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But I haven't. What was that bout 'rep'? I read your bit about the 'question', the answer to which I still have not read. I will. I'm guessing by your insistence that you think it surely will confirm that Merv was dissing the Recovery plan of Labour prior to the election ....... something I just cannot believe is true ...... we'll see. |
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| RJD | Jan 13 2015, 08:18 AM Post #150 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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The point is that the Claimants claim that products are best produced by a capitalist market, but services are not. There appears to be no evidence of this or even an understanding of how such a conclusion was arrived at. Seems to me to be more of a quasi religious belief rather than the result of a deductive process based on evidence. There is no attempt to explain how one arrived at such a conclusion. Clearly the weaponisation of the NHS is in full swing, pity such does not help cure anyone least of all the NHS of it's myriad of problems. |
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| Affa | Jan 13 2015, 09:27 AM Post #151 |
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The biggest problem facing the NHS is as always being under the thumb of Conservative governments ........ there are none of these critical crisis in the NHS when Labour are its guardians. Oh; and thank you for the representation, but you overlooked the core element of it - that services are measured, given value, by customer satisfaction. |
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| RJD | Jan 13 2015, 09:32 AM Post #152 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Really. How can this be true when from 1979 to 1997 the NHS budget was increased in each and every year and only Labour have a record of cutting the NHS budget, twice? Me thinks that the Old Red Nag myth machine is in overdrive spewing out the bilge that the great unread wish to believe. The truth is that the NHS is/was desperate for reform and slugging money at it without such is a foolish waste of Taxpayer's money. The resistance from the left for such reform comes from NHS Employees and their Unions and their arguments are not based on Patient needs. They only prove that that organisation is Employee-centric. |
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| krugerman | Jan 13 2015, 09:54 AM Post #153 |
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The period 1979 - 1997 was the worst period in the history of the NHS Waiting lists rose out of control, between 1979 and 1997 the number of people on NHS waiting lists went up by more than 400,000, in 1997, 284,000 patients were waiting for over six month for treatment. Two million more operations were carried out each year in 2009 than in 1997 – including more than double the number of heart operations, More than 89,000 extra nurses and over 44,000 doctors were recruited. There was the annual winter bed crisis, appalling images on our television screens of hundreds of patients on trolleys waiting for a bed, ambulances driving from hospital to hospital looking for beds, doctors falling asleep after working 70 and 80 hour weeks - this was commonplace. If you seriously believe that our NHS was in a worse state under Labour, then you are totaly blind to reality, even Cameron admitted that the Tories let down the NHS. For the record - the worst one-off cut to the NHS budget was in 1953 / 54 when the budget fell by 6.3%, the primeminister at the time was Sir Anthony Eden, smaller dips in funding occurred in the late 1970s and early 1980s under Margaret Thatcher, unfortunately your source of information is incorrect. |
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| RJD | Jan 13 2015, 10:16 AM Post #154 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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K: The period 1979 - 1997 was the worst period in the history of the NHS An opinion nothing more. Do you dispute the claim that the Tories increased the NHS budget each and every year and only Labour has ever reduced it? K: Waiting lists rose out of control, between 1979 and 1997 the number of people on NHS waiting lists went up by more than 400,000, in 1997, 284,000 patients were waiting for over six month for treatment. "out of control" another subjective emotional phrase. K: Two million more operations were carried out each year in 2009 than in 1997 – including more than double the number of heart operations, More than 89,000 extra nurses and over 44,000 doctors were recruited. Nobody has claimed that such people are unwelcome only that the increased costs were not commensurate with the claimed improvements. We did not double NHS expenditure and expect so little in return. K: There was the annual winter bed crisis, appalling images on our television screens of hundreds of patients on trolleys waiting for a bed, ambulances driving from hospital to hospital looking for beds, doctors falling asleep after working 70 and 80 hour weeks - this was commonplace. Not to mention the serial abuse inflicted on patients, mainly elderly ones, during a period of high investments in the NHS. K you have to learn to be even handed. K: If you seriously believe that our NHS was in a worse state under Labour, then you are totaly blind to reality, even Cameron admitted that the Tories let down the NHS. I do think the NHS was in a worse state under Labour as it had lost the will to reform this, the third largest employer on the Planet, in the interest of Patients. K: For the record - the worst one-off cut to the NHS budget was in 1953 / 54 when the budget fell by 6.3%, the primeminister at the time was Sir Anthony Eden, smaller dips in funding occurred in the late 1970s and early 1980s under Margaret Thatcher, unfortunately your source of information is incorrect. Best you look at the official records and then you will find that only Labour have cut the NHS budget in real terms, the first time by Healey the second time by Brown. The problem K is that you are using the NHS like a political football and have lost all understanding that it is there for Patients "first and foremost". You have lost all objectivity. |
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| Affa | Jan 13 2015, 10:22 AM Post #155 |
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The people using the NHS as a football are the Conservatives that have a history of failure that they desperately need to escape by washing their hands of responsibility for its running - privatisation and then deny any and all culpability ....... just as with every failed privatisation project. Not least the deregulation of FS. |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 13 2015, 11:42 AM Post #156 |
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The news on radio four was interesting yesterday evening when they we discussing how they should proceed with the election coverage. One of the suggestions that came through loud and clear is that listeners wished to hear what the party being questioned was going to do not what they thought the other party was going to do or had done. I wonder if this were implemented here how many posters would have anything left to post. |
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| Steve K | Jan 13 2015, 11:52 AM Post #157 |
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Once and future cynic
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Just as an aside another day and another "Wanted Down Under" watched by Mrs K on the BBC with a Brit looking to double her pay by taking the skills we paid to train her to rewards in Oz >:( >:( >:( end this foreign aid subsidy to Oz and NZ and end it now! |
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| RJD | Jan 13 2015, 12:01 PM Post #158 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Well Cameron has said what the Tories intend and that is to rid us of the Public Spending Deficit by 2020. When do Labour intend to achieve such? |
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| RJD | Jan 13 2015, 12:03 PM Post #159 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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How? As today individuals are paying a large contribution towards their higher education what claim do you have on them? Do you intend to take away their freedom to leave the UK? |
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| Affa | Jan 13 2015, 12:50 PM Post #160 |
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Senior Member
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"Intend" is not a projection, is not a declaration, is not a pledge or obligation. |
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I agree. The Tories have tirelessly worked to demonise,poor people who are disenfranchised from the mainstream NHS services, unions , old people , foreigners and time wasters ( not necessarily in that order) in an attempt soften us up into accepting a privatised health service.

2:34 PM Jul 11