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Internet or starve? Tory Minister.
Topic Started: Jan 11 2015, 07:41 PM (790 Views)
papasmurf
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Francis Maude is an idiot, "internet refuseniks," "a one-off lesson to help them get on to the internet. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10889563/Go-on-the-internet-or-lose-access-to-government-services-Francis-Maude-tells-pensioners.html

3:51PM BST 10 Jun 2014

Go on the internet - or lose access to government services, Francis Maude tells pensioners

Elderly people will have to have to go on to the internet or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said




Elderly people will have to have to go on online or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said


The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.


Mr Maude said that online 'refuseniks' who did not want to use computers would be able to apply for a one-off lesson from to help them get on to the internet.


But he said that in future the Government would only make services available over the internet, in the same way an airline sells tickets.


Ministers are migrating dozens of public services on to the internet, including the carers' allowance, which is used by 3.2million carers a year, the small claims service, and Lasting Powers of Attorney, which allow families to take control of a loved one's financial affairs.

The comments were greeted with dismay by groups representing the estimated five million pensioners in their 80s and 90s who have never been on the internet.

Dot Gibson, general secretary of the National Pensioners’ Convention, said: “The move towards largely digital only services could pose a huge problem for millions of older people.

Over five million of today's pensioners have never been online, and this is particularly true for those who are at the upper end of the pensioner age group, in their 80s or 90s.

"It's also a problem for poorer pensioners who may not be able to afford a computer and the other equipment needed. Fundamentally there’s an information gap that the government are creating.

“Just because someone uses the computer now, doesn't mean they will want to when they are 85. The idea that we all have to be digital citizens or else we end up as second-class citizens is wrong.”

Lisa Harris, Saga's communications manager, said: "It is somewhat disingenuous to assume that everybody wants to be online. Recent research shows that the vast majority of those that are not online have made a conscious choice not to be.

"To say that all 'old' people should be online and all they need is a little mollycoddling is somewhat patronising.

"Government needs ensure that people have proper protection online, such as ensuring banks and financial institutions treat those who make genuine mistakes fairly, but also provide help and advice for those that want it.

"It is essential that people are able to deal with public services in a way that suits them. The digital tide is certainly turning, but Government need to ensure we can all ride the technology wave and not leave some left to drown unaided because they don't choose to 'conform'."

Mr Maude was unveiling figures to an audience of civil servants at the Treasury showing the billions saved by the Government from moving Government services by moving Government services online.

Asked by the Telegraph if all Government services would be online at some stage, he said: “Our point is that everything that can be delivered online, should be delivered online and only online.”

He added: “There are some things that are physical and can’t be online. The key point is that like airlines, airlines do everything that is not physical, is not about actually flying the aeroplanes online, which is better for them and better for the passenger.”

People who were not used to the internet would be given a one off lesson – an “assisted digital option” – to be trained up with using the internet.

This would see charities paid by the Government to sit with older and vulnerable people as they went online to access services.

He said: “It should be provided by an organisation, who don’t want to do this repeatedly, but who will provide this option as a way of helping that citizen to become online and stay online because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives.”

One example were lasting powers of attorney, which families can need if they want to get control over the financial affairs of a parent or a vulnerable sibling.

He said that a new application was launched last month which means that pages of forms no longer have to be completed by family members.

He said: “The assisted digital is being provided by a group of charities who work in this area – so Age UK, the Alzeimers' society, they are providing the assisted digital service – no one is excluded.

“They are doing it in a way to help get those people online because actually people will have richer lives if they are digitally engaged.”

A Cabinet Office spokesman: “We will always provide assistance for those who need help in accessing government services online.

"The world is changing and when you can bank online at midnight and shop from your bedroom, people rightly expect high-quality digital services from government.”

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johnofgwent
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It is already happenning in newport and not to oaps

Try getting jsa without an internet connection

Try getting help when you cant see to fill in the form.

This is, frankly, yesterday's news, if it can be called news
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Affa
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papasmurf
Jan 11 2015, 07:41 PM
Francis Maude is an idiot, "internet refuseniks," "a one-off lesson to help them get on to the internet. "


The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.
Quote:
 

The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.


Absolute BS ........ and an insult to voters.

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Steve K
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It's monumentally arrogant and stupid
Edited by Steve K, Jan 11 2015, 11:01 PM.
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Lewis
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Affa
Jan 11 2015, 11:00 PM
papasmurf
Jan 11 2015, 07:41 PM
Francis Maude is an idiot, "internet refuseniks," "a one-off lesson to help them get on to the internet. "


The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.
Quote:
 

The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.


Absolute BS ........ and an insult to voters.

Yes and more social engineering by an out of touch and incompetent government. Vote to get rid of this shower in May.
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Alberich
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I know! What is this government doing? I am forever tripping over the corpses of OAPs who have starved to death as a result of this heartless government policy. AND the local council will only collect them once a fortnight! They make the place look SO untidy!
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Steve K
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Alberich
Jan 12 2015, 04:14 PM
I know! What is this government doing? I am forever tripping over the corpses of OAPs who have starved to death as a result of this heartless government policy. AND the local council will only collect them once a fortnight! They make the place look SO untidy!
;D

Posted Image

I hear Serco will take them ;-)
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papasmurf
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You are supposed under the rules of this forum debate the subject of the thread NOT the person who started it.
It may have escaped the usual suspects notice, there is question mark in the thread header, it is a question NOT a statement.
So either debate the digital by default policy or eff off out the thread.
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Alberich
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The subject YOU started is headed "internet or starve". I was just trying to illustrate the stupidity of your subject heading. And as you still don't get it, I can only assume that I have failed.
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papasmurf
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Alberich
Jan 12 2015, 04:30 PM
The subject YOU started is headed "internet or starve".
No it isn't it is headed:- Internet or starve? Tory Minister

The question mark makes all the difference.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 12 2015, 04:41 PM
Alberich
Jan 12 2015, 04:30 PM
The subject YOU started is headed "internet or starve".
No it isn't it is headed:- Internet or starve? Tory Minister

The question mark makes all the difference.
We have seen significant cost gains by the US Administration by moving what were paper based services to the internet. I believe that in this digital age that much of our communications will be digitally based within the next 5 to 10 years. It is wrong to assume that the generation that invented digital technology will not be able to cope with such in the coming years, however, some will not and they can be assisted by others. Therefore I believe it sensible to design future services with digital technologies as the basic platform and then consider those that have no access, for whatever reason, as a secondary issue.

Just in a few short years we have seen the mobile phone brick become an electronic wallet, calendar, to-do-list, fun centre and means of voice and text communications. Most people, not me, have a mobile phone. Many young people would not consider writing a letter.

So if the State can save significant amounts of Taxpayer's money by going digital and only a minority, a naturally reducing minority, are inconvenienced then why not?

To object appears to be Ludditism.

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Steve K
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That is to miss the point RJD. Yes for most people in need they can cope with the internet but that leaves two question neither you or Francis Maude seem to care about

- that when people most start to need state support they are entitled to may just coincide with their lowest ability to take on new skills and use the internet
- that there will always be a significant % of the population that either cannot afford computers or cannot use them properly (or even both)

Today I will be visiting an 89 year old relative in hospital, I really wish I could take that arrogant shit Maude in with me to ask him just how he thinks she and the other patients in the ward could use the internet to apply for the help they each now need.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 10:33 AM


So if the State can save significant amounts of Taxpayer's money by going digital and only a minority, a naturally reducing minority, are inconvenienced then why not?

To object appears to be Ludditism.

RJD I suggest you try doing anything online that is government related to benefits. (Just registering to use the service which covers more that just benefits but you do have to register.)
I have been using computers from when back in the day you had to wire the program in. If I lose the will to live using "digital by default," a lot more people that the idiot government minister seems to think are going to have some very serious problems.
(Getting a new passport and a new driving licence I nearly lost the will to live.)
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RJD
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SteveK: That is to miss the point RJD. Yes for most people in need they can cope with the internet but that leaves two question neither you or Francis Maude seem to care about.

I really do not know how you managed to deduce whether or not I cared? Do you have specific evidence of this?

SteveK: - that when people most start to need state support they are entitled to may just coincide with their lowest ability to take on new skills and use the internet

This may well be true, but how do you measure the significance of such when designing a future system? Are you saying that the system must cater for such an eventuality and not design in any separate support mechanisms? If so I disagree as I believe it best to design for the majority of users and find ways of accomodating minority groups.

SteveK: - that there will always be a significant % of the population that either cannot afford computers or cannot use them properly (or even both)

I am sure that is true, but are they themselves the basis of a specification for everyone else? I think not.

SteveK: Today I will be visiting an 89 year old relative in hospital, I really wish I could take that arrogant shit Maude in with me to ask him just how he thinks she and the other patients in the ward could use the internet to apply for the help they each now need.

Well I suppose in the way I helped my 97 year old neighbour who died just before Christmas. Friends, family, Charities and if all fails Jobsworthy. By the way she did not own a PC, did not have a printer and could hardly hold a fountain pen. Read she could and understand she did.

We cannot afford to design future systems to cater for every eventuality and all minorities, lines have to be drawn and these are articulated in LSD.

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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:01 AM


We cannot afford to design future systems to cater for every eventuality and all minorities, lines have to be drawn and these are articulated in LSD.

So basically if someone can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die?
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 11:08 AM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:01 AM


We cannot afford to design future systems to cater for every eventuality and all minorities, lines have to be drawn and these are articulated in LSD.

So basically if someone can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die?
Pathetic and an extremists response. No matter what system you design tell me how it would have catered for my neighbours needs. She could read but not write and could hardly hold a pen to make her mark.
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Steve K
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RJD please can you not use your unique and less than clear system of quotes, it really doesn't work for anyone else but the author

And I suggest again you have missed the point here . We are not talking about one or two that do not fit Francis Maude's disturbed ideas. This will isolate thousands.

But then again this is the same bonkers Maude that decided to set up an unvetted WiFi network inside government secure offices in order to bypass security protocols - shows how much he really understands IT. Enough to be dangerous.

Will Cameron carpet Miser Maude for his bonkers interpretation of we're all in it together? No one should hold their breath. But there's an election looming and guess what CallMeDave - it won't get forgotten.

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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:12 AM
Pathetic and an extremists response.
Just commenting on the logical conclusion of you stance RJD. The Tory minsters stance in the reference in the thread opener is can't use the internet to make a claim no benefit. (He is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks a one day course is going to be of any use at all.)
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 11:25 AM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:12 AM
Pathetic and an extremists response.
Just commenting on the logical conclusion of you stance RJD. The Tory minsters stance in the reference in the thread opener is can't use the internet to make a claim no benefit. (He is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks a one day course is going to be of any use at all.)
But it is not a logical conclusion. Again you demonstrate a complete inability to deduce logically. I made my position clear and you reacted to my statement, what others might have said is irrelevant as your stated conclusion was based on my statements and these alone. Mr Smurf you really do need to learn how to think logically then you might avoid many of your wild claims.

To reiterate there is nothing I have said above that can be construed or interpreted to mean, other than by those with vivid imaginations that "So basically if someone can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die". My claim Mr Smurf is that you are pathetic at debate and you portray all of the traits of those that build logical fallacies to justify extreme positions.








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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:35 AM
I made my position clear and you reacted to my statement,




You made it crystal clear RJD, not able to use the internet no benefit. Which leads to only one logical conclusion.
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Steve K
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Yes "can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die" is over the top

Maude's policy seems to be "can't use IT to claim benefit then more money for me"
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ranger121
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Steve K
Jan 13 2015, 11:23 AM
RJD please can you not use your unique and less than clear system of quotes, it really doesn't work for anyone else but the author

And I suggest again you have missed the point here . We are not talking about one or two that do not fit Francis Maude's disturbed ideas. This will isolate thousands.

But then again this is the same bonkers Maude that decided to set up an unvetted WiFi network inside government secure offices in order to bypass security protocols - shows how much he really understands IT. Enough to be dangerous.

Will Cameron carpet Miser Maude for his bonkers interpretation of we're all in it together? No one should hold their breath. But there's an election looming and guess what CallMeDave - it won't get forgotten.

Slight misinterpretation of what actually happened here.

Maud found that there are heavy restrictions that applied to government computer's internet access (such as all social media is blocked, certain searches not allowed, news sites are slow etc., etc.) for 'security' reasons, and this restricted his ability to work in some areas. Just goes to show that the 'security' restrictions apply to everyone, no matter what their rank in the food chain.

Anyway, Maud rented an office across the road from the government office, and put a wireless router in there, so that he could access an unrestricted internet on his personal tablet, whilst in his government office. Only he had access to it, as it was secured.

The hotspot was not physically located inside the government building, nor was it connected to government servers.
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RJD
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Steve K
Jan 13 2015, 11:39 AM
Yes "can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die" is over the top

Maude's policy seems to be "can't use IT to claim benefit then more money for me"
Why bring Maude into the debate? I made my claim, best pick holes in that.
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Steve K
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ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 12:01 PM
Steve K
Jan 13 2015, 11:23 AM
RJD please can you not use your unique and less than clear system of quotes, it really doesn't work for anyone else but the author

And I suggest again you have missed the point here . We are not talking about one or two that do not fit Francis Maude's disturbed ideas. This will isolate thousands.

But then again this is the same bonkers Maude that decided to set up an unvetted WiFi network inside government secure offices in order to bypass security protocols - shows how much he really understands IT. Enough to be dangerous.

Will Cameron carpet Miser Maude for his bonkers interpretation of we're all in it together? No one should hold their breath. But there's an election looming and guess what CallMeDave - it won't get forgotten.

Slight misinterpretation of what actually happened here.

Maud found that there are heavy restrictions that applied to government computer's internet access (such as all social media is blocked, certain searches not allowed, news sites are slow etc., etc.) for 'security' reasons, and this restricted his ability to work in some areas. Just goes to show that the 'security' restrictions apply to everyone, no matter what their rank in the food chain.

Anyway, Maud rented an office across the road from the government office, and put a wireless router in there, so that he could access an unrestricted internet on his personal tablet, whilst in his government office. Only he had access to it, as it was secured.

The hotspot was not physically located inside the government building, nor was it connected to government servers.
This account says different

If it was an office used to hold government papers it should in any event be to list X standards, he broke those.

He's an arrogant idiot
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ranger121
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Quote:
 
This account says different

If it was an office used to hold government papers it should in any event be to list X standards, he broke those.

He's an arrogant idiot
All the accounts circulating in the media at the time said different, as if the man had broken some kind of rule or protocol. It was used to 'beef up' the story.

There is no wifi-access in government offices. Government computers are not wireless-enabled. Everything is hard-wired.

So him having his iPad connected to a private network instead of a government one is not a security risk UNLESS he sends government business data over it, which he can't, as he cannot connect his iPad to the government server system.

It's exactly the same as if he connected his phone to a laptop and went from there.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 12:07 PM
Why bring Maude into the debate?
I suggest you look at the thread starter.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 01:30 PM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 12:07 PM
Why bring Maude into the debate?
I suggest you look at the thread starter.
I suggest you read my statements then apologise for your ignorant claims. I only defend my claims to which you applied your usual sloppy deductions and and as a consequence produced a false conclusion. It is increasingly obvious how and why you rapidly end up with an extreme position. I doubt you know the difference between fact and fiction and logical thought processes are clearly what take place in other households. You are clearly not a source worth referencing on anything.
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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:21 PM
I suggest you read my statements
I suggest you read mine.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 02:25 PM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:21 PM
I suggest you read my statements
I suggest you read mine.
I did and that is exactly the point. You came to an illogical conclusion based on my claims, nothing to do with anyone else's and now you are not big enough, you lack the necessary humility, to admit it. Still I expect nothing but obfuscation from you. Your erstwhile Grammar School Headmaster must be turning over in his grave.

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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:33 PM
You came to an illogical conclusion based on my claims,
I came to a logical conclusion based on what you had written.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 02:37 PM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:33 PM
You came to an illogical conclusion based on my claims,
I came to a logical conclusion based on what you had written.
If you did then you are capable of showing the steps you made in your deduction. This is going to be interesting.

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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:39 PM
If you did then you are capable of showing the steps you made in your deduction. This is going to be interesting.

You did not specify what you would do about those (20% of claimants according to the DWP,) who are not IT literate/don't have internet access.
Therefore the logical assumption is you would do nothing.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 02:46 PM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:39 PM
If you did then you are capable of showing the steps you made in your deduction. This is going to be interesting.

You did not specify what you would do about those (20% of claimants according to the DWP,) who are not IT literate/don't have internet access.
Therefore the logical assumption is you would do nothing.
There is no such thing as 'no internet access'. It is available to almost everyone.

Sit in MacDonald's with your phone. In the library. Almost anywhere in the high street, most pubs, hotels etc., etc.

What you are talking about is the tiny number of elderly, housebound, probably disabled people who form a disadvantaged group because they either don't wish to use the internet at any time and don't have the IT skills to do so, as well as not having the equipment to do it.

The DWP already make provision for these people with their visiting services.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 03:25 PM
There is no such thing as 'no internet access'. It is available to almost everyone.

The problem is it is not. For a much larger number of people than you seem to think. Plus if they had access many don't have any IT skills.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-digital-inclusion-strategy/government-digital-inclusion-strategy

However recent research published by the BBC has found that 21% of Britain’s population lack the basic digital skills and capabilities required to realise the benefits of the internet. Around a third of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) don’t have a website, and when we include voluntary, community and social enterprises (VCSEs) this figure rises to 50% . Independent analysts Booz and Co. estimate full digital take up could add £63 billion value to the UK economy.
Edited by papasmurf, Jan 13 2015, 07:16 PM.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 06:58 PM
ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 03:25 PM
There is no such thing as 'no internet access'. It is available to almost everyone.

The problem is it is not. For a much larger number of people than you seem to think. Plus if they had access many don't have any IT skills.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-digital-inclusion-strategy/government-digital-inclusion-strategy

However recent research published by the BBC has found that 21% of Britain’s population lack the basic digital skills and capabilities required to realise the benefits of the internet. Around a third of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) don’t have a website, and when we include voluntary, community and social enterprises (VCSEs) this figure rises to 50% . Independent analysts Booz and Co. estimate full digital take up could add £63 billion value to the UK economy.
I have this evening tested this.

My mother, who is 77, and does not have a computer and does not have the desire to own one so came to use mine to claim a benefit.

I offered to do it for her, but she insisted on doing it herself.

She completed the claim in less than 15 minutes.

My mother is of 'average' intelligence yet completely IT illiterate, but can use the government's online system, so I reckon a large percentage of your duck-eggs will be much the same.

Just because they are 'old', they are NOT helpless.
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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 11:08 AM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 11:01 AM


We cannot afford to design future systems to cater for every eventuality and all minorities, lines have to be drawn and these are articulated in LSD.

So basically if someone can't use IT to claim benefit they can eff off and die?
They could get someone to sit down with them and do it for them I suppose. Most public libraries today have an internet section and willing staff. No doubt carerers could have a laptop or tablet to take with them.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 06:58 PM
However recent research published by the BBC has found that 21% of Britain’s population lack the basic digital skills and capabilities required to realise the benefits of the internet. Around a third of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) don’t have a website, and when we include voluntary, community and social enterprises (VCSEs) this figure rises to 50% . Independent analysts Booz and Co. estimate full digital take up could add £63 billion value to the UK economy.
Secondly to this, I personally do not know of any business that does not have a presence online, that would actually NEED an online presence.

Even my window-cleaner has a website.

I have this week set up a very small website to sell some product for a one-man-band who didn't have a clue how to set one up for himself. So it's clearly obvious to even the very small trader that an online presence can boost sales, and if they cannot do it themselves, they'll look round for someone who can.

As to the 'voluntary, community and social enterprises' - don't you find that these are run by small committees of people, maybe none of whom have the skills to build a website? It is only when they find some volunteer that has the skills and bit of time to spare that they get a website built. So, no surprise that half don't have an online presence - is it?

Online will never replace the market trader, though.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 11:17 PM
I have this evening tested this.

My mother, who is 77, and does not have a computer and does not have the desire to own one so came to use mine to claim a benefit.

I offered to do it for her, but she insisted on doing it herself.

She completed the claim in less than 15 minutes.

My mother is of 'average' intelligence yet completely IT illiterate, but can use the government's online system, so I reckon a large percentage of your duck-eggs will be much the same.

Just because they are 'old', they are NOT helpless.
On example proves nothing.
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papasmurf
Senior Member
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Tytoalba
Jan 13 2015, 11:37 PM
Most public libraries today have an internet section and willing staff. No doubt carerers could have a laptop or tablet to take with them.
You do realise how many public libraries have closed, and the distances involved for many people to get to and from them.
Plus the number of people queued up to use what little facilities there are. Then there is the security issue.
Just for a laugh see how you get on registering on this:-
http://www.gateway.gov.uk/
Edited by papasmurf, Jan 14 2015, 08:49 AM.
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HIGHWAY
Senior Member
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papasmurf
Jan 14 2015, 08:44 AM
ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 11:17 PM
I have this evening tested this.

My mother, who is 77, and does not have a computer and does not have the desire to own one so came to use mine to claim a benefit.

I offered to do it for her, but she insisted on doing it herself.

She completed the claim in less than 15 minutes.

My mother is of 'average' intelligence yet completely IT illiterate, but can use the government's online system, so I reckon a large percentage of your duck-eggs will be much the same.

Just because they are 'old', they are NOT helpless.
On example proves nothing.
Proves it can be done,but as it doesn't suit your hatred of all things Tory,your not interested
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