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Internet or starve? Tory Minister.
Topic Started: Jan 11 2015, 07:41 PM (791 Views)
papasmurf
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Francis Maude is an idiot, "internet refuseniks," "a one-off lesson to help them get on to the internet. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10889563/Go-on-the-internet-or-lose-access-to-government-services-Francis-Maude-tells-pensioners.html

3:51PM BST 10 Jun 2014

Go on the internet - or lose access to government services, Francis Maude tells pensioners

Elderly people will have to have to go on to the internet or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said




Elderly people will have to have to go on online or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said


The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.


Mr Maude said that online 'refuseniks' who did not want to use computers would be able to apply for a one-off lesson from to help them get on to the internet.


But he said that in future the Government would only make services available over the internet, in the same way an airline sells tickets.


Ministers are migrating dozens of public services on to the internet, including the carers' allowance, which is used by 3.2million carers a year, the small claims service, and Lasting Powers of Attorney, which allow families to take control of a loved one's financial affairs.

The comments were greeted with dismay by groups representing the estimated five million pensioners in their 80s and 90s who have never been on the internet.

Dot Gibson, general secretary of the National Pensioners’ Convention, said: “The move towards largely digital only services could pose a huge problem for millions of older people.

Over five million of today's pensioners have never been online, and this is particularly true for those who are at the upper end of the pensioner age group, in their 80s or 90s.

"It's also a problem for poorer pensioners who may not be able to afford a computer and the other equipment needed. Fundamentally there’s an information gap that the government are creating.

“Just because someone uses the computer now, doesn't mean they will want to when they are 85. The idea that we all have to be digital citizens or else we end up as second-class citizens is wrong.”

Lisa Harris, Saga's communications manager, said: "It is somewhat disingenuous to assume that everybody wants to be online. Recent research shows that the vast majority of those that are not online have made a conscious choice not to be.

"To say that all 'old' people should be online and all they need is a little mollycoddling is somewhat patronising.

"Government needs ensure that people have proper protection online, such as ensuring banks and financial institutions treat those who make genuine mistakes fairly, but also provide help and advice for those that want it.

"It is essential that people are able to deal with public services in a way that suits them. The digital tide is certainly turning, but Government need to ensure we can all ride the technology wave and not leave some left to drown unaided because they don't choose to 'conform'."

Mr Maude was unveiling figures to an audience of civil servants at the Treasury showing the billions saved by the Government from moving Government services by moving Government services online.

Asked by the Telegraph if all Government services would be online at some stage, he said: “Our point is that everything that can be delivered online, should be delivered online and only online.”

He added: “There are some things that are physical and can’t be online. The key point is that like airlines, airlines do everything that is not physical, is not about actually flying the aeroplanes online, which is better for them and better for the passenger.”

People who were not used to the internet would be given a one off lesson – an “assisted digital option” – to be trained up with using the internet.

This would see charities paid by the Government to sit with older and vulnerable people as they went online to access services.

He said: “It should be provided by an organisation, who don’t want to do this repeatedly, but who will provide this option as a way of helping that citizen to become online and stay online because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives.”

One example were lasting powers of attorney, which families can need if they want to get control over the financial affairs of a parent or a vulnerable sibling.

He said that a new application was launched last month which means that pages of forms no longer have to be completed by family members.

He said: “The assisted digital is being provided by a group of charities who work in this area – so Age UK, the Alzeimers' society, they are providing the assisted digital service – no one is excluded.

“They are doing it in a way to help get those people online because actually people will have richer lives if they are digitally engaged.”

A Cabinet Office spokesman: “We will always provide assistance for those who need help in accessing government services online.

"The world is changing and when you can bank online at midnight and shop from your bedroom, people rightly expect high-quality digital services from government.”

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Affa
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I believe it was the recognition that pensioners, the aged, would have a hard time coping with ATM machines and Bank Debit card use that persuaded the PO to keep open many of it rural branches .... old folk like to cash their pension book/giro just as they always have.
That recognition and the climb down wasn't to pander to cranky old fogies - it was because it was realised that quite a lot would not be able to make the adjustment, and risk putting themselves into serious trouble.




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ranger121
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My mother's companion has advanced dementia yet is still able to operate an ATM by himself, for his 'walking around money'. As this involves remembering a number as well as operating the machine, it is yet another example of the severely disabled having the ability to use technology.

There are extremely few helpless, alone, utterly abandoned people who might possibly be affected.


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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 14 2015, 07:52 PM
My mother's companion has advanced dementia yet is still able to operate an ATM by himself, for his 'walking around money'. As this involves remembering a number as well as operating the machine, it is yet another example of the severely disabled having the ability to use technology.

There are extremely few helpless, alone, utterly abandoned people who might possibly be affected.


Ranger it is 20% with a problem hardly a few. Your exceptions can't change the reality. Like the 5 million functionally illiterate in the population.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Jan 14 2015, 07:59 PM
ranger121
Jan 14 2015, 07:52 PM
My mother's companion has advanced dementia yet is still able to operate an ATM by himself, for his 'walking around money'. As this involves remembering a number as well as operating the machine, it is yet another example of the severely disabled having the ability to use technology.

There are extremely few helpless, alone, utterly abandoned people who might possibly be affected.


Ranger it is 20% with a problem hardly a few. Your exceptions can't change the reality. Like the 5 million functionally illiterate in the population.
I'd give up PS

Ranger clearly believes that no one is older than 77 or more disabled than his mother. He thinks that everyone trusts "visiting services" and that everyone is mobile enough to get to the High St and get out their iPad with no fear of being mugged. He also thinks that McDonalds provide a free WiFi service for non customers and he also believes that it's a really good idea that people use private WiFi for their personal details. It really isn't

Seems some of us know a lot better
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Rich
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Affa
Jan 14 2015, 04:54 PM
I believe it was the recognition that pensioners, the aged, would have a hard time coping with ATM machines and Bank Debit card use that persuaded the PO to keep open many of it rural branches .... old folk like to cash their pension book/giro just as they always have.
That recognition and the climb down wasn't to pander to cranky old fogies - it was because it was realised that quite a lot would not be able to make the adjustment, and risk putting themselves into serious trouble.




I understand that a good many senior citizens enjoy going to the local PO to withdraw funds as it gets them out and gives them a chance to chat to someone other than themselves.
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Steve K
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Rich
Jan 15 2015, 12:21 AM
Affa
Jan 14 2015, 04:54 PM
I believe it was the recognition that pensioners, the aged, would have a hard time coping with ATM machines and Bank Debit card use that persuaded the PO to keep open many of it rural branches .... old folk like to cash their pension book/giro just as they always have.
That recognition and the climb down wasn't to pander to cranky old fogies - it was because it was realised that quite a lot would not be able to make the adjustment, and risk putting themselves into serious trouble.




I understand that a good many senior citizens enjoy going to the local PO to withdraw funds as it gets them out and gives them a chance to chat to someone other than themselves.
Yes but it's far from all or even the overwhelming majority

Do you know how many OAPs can't remember their own PIN?

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Affa
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ranger121
Jan 14 2015, 07:52 PM
My mother's companion has advanced dementia yet is still able to operate an ATM by himself, for his 'walking around money'. As this involves remembering a number as well as operating the machine, it is yet another example of the severely disabled having the ability to use technology.

There are extremely few helpless, alone, utterly abandoned people who might possibly be affected.



Ranger; I'm not taking sides here, and not having a go at the aged or the disabled ..... I'm simply pointing out a parallel that was dropped. The PO wanted to close a large number of rural post offices and dropped the idea.
For myself. I had this to say (at the time) - "In regard to today's available technology - if anyone starting out from scratch came up with the idea of a PO in every village to deal with mail collection and the payment of pensions and child benefit etc they'd be laughed out of office".

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ranger121
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 12:00 AM
papasmurf
Jan 14 2015, 07:59 PM
ranger121
Jan 14 2015, 07:52 PM
My mother's companion has advanced dementia yet is still able to operate an ATM by himself, for his 'walking around money'. As this involves remembering a number as well as operating the machine, it is yet another example of the severely disabled having the ability to use technology.

There are extremely few helpless, alone, utterly abandoned people who might possibly be affected.


Ranger it is 20% with a problem hardly a few. Your exceptions can't change the reality. Like the 5 million functionally illiterate in the population.
I'd give up PS

Ranger clearly believes that no one is older than 77 or more disabled than his mother. He thinks that everyone trusts "visiting services" and that everyone is mobile enough to get to the High St and get out their iPad with no fear of being mugged. He also thinks that McDonalds provide a free WiFi service for non customers and he also believes that it's a really good idea that people use private WiFi for their personal details. It really isn't

Seems some of us know a lot better
My dear Steve K.

I am entitled to an opinion just as much as you are.

If you're going to continue being nasty and dishonest about someone you don't know, looking down your nose at what people say in mock horror and disgust, trying to belittle what people say in quite a nasty way, then you'll be having a rest from this forum.

Got it?
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 12:00 AM
I'd give up PS

Ranger clearly believes that no one is older than 77 or more disabled than his mother. He thinks that everyone trusts "visiting services" and that everyone is mobile enough to get to the High St and get out their iPad with no fear of being mugged. He also thinks that McDonalds provide a free WiFi service for non customers and he also believes that it's a really good idea that people use private WiFi for their personal details. It really isn't

Seems some of us know a lot better
No chance of me giving up when all the research agrees with me, including the government's. I have had my suspicions about Ranger for some time. He has some very odd mind sets. If he is typical of the DWP it is no wonder it is not fit for purpose no matter what government is in power.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 08:49 AM
Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 12:00 AM
I'd give up PS

Ranger clearly believes that no one is older than 77 or more disabled than his mother. He thinks that everyone trusts "visiting services" and that everyone is mobile enough to get to the High St and get out their iPad with no fear of being mugged. He also thinks that McDonalds provide a free WiFi service for non customers and he also believes that it's a really good idea that people use private WiFi for their personal details. It really isn't

Seems some of us know a lot better
No chance of me giving up when all the research agrees with me, including the government's. I have had my suspicions about Ranger for some time. He has some very odd mind sets. If he is typical of the DWP it is no wonder it is not fit for purpose no matter what government is in power.
Right, let's get it through your thick skull once more, shall we?

I am NOT employed by the DWP or anyone else, I am RETIRED.

If you had read the original report that this is all based upon, an IPsis-Mori done for the BBC, (Media Literacy: Understanding Digital Capabilities) you will see how wrong you are about the numbers.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:02 AM


If you had read the original report that this is all based upon, an IPsis-Mori done for the BBC, you will see how wrong you are about the numbers.
That is not the only report on levels of computer literacy in Britain, Ranger as an ex DWP employee you should be fully aware the DWP own actuarial data set on the subject had a similar result.

Edited to add:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/36000/12-p168-2011-skills-for-life-survey.pdf

Whilst access to the internet is widespread, ONS figures suggest that in the first quarter of 2011,
8.71 million adults had never used the internet,312 and these tended to be those aged over 65,
the widowed and those with a disability. This is potentially concerning as ‘using a computer and
the internet are now basic skills for employability and many other aspects of learning and
living’.313
Edited by papasmurf, Jan 15 2015, 09:22 AM.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 09:16 AM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:02 AM


If you had read the original report that this is all based upon, an IPsis-Mori done for the BBC, you will see how wrong you are about the numbers.
That is not the only report on levels of computer literacy in Britain, Ranger as an ex DWP employee you should be fully aware the DWP own actuarial data set on the subject had a similar result.

Edited to add:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/36000/12-p168-2011-skills-for-life-survey.pdf

Whilst access to the internet is widespread, ONS figures suggest that in the first quarter of 2011,
8.71 million adults had never used the internet,312 and these tended to be those aged over 65,
the widowed and those with a disability. This is potentially concerning as ‘using a computer and
the internet are now basic skills for employability and many other aspects of learning and
living’.313
I have no doubt that there have been hundreds of surveys and statistics collected on internet useage and why people use it, and what for.

Why I should be aware of the government reports 'as an ex-employee' in particular doesn't make any sense.

The report used in this part of the discussion was the one generated from the BBC one, which is why I mentioned it.

As to the blurb:

Most people over 65 aren't generally looking for employment or 'learning', they use the net to buy stuff, look up hotels in Benidorm and skype their kids in Australia - and that's only the few that WANT to use the net, the vast majority have no interest at all, and it doesn't impact their lives if they don't bother with the net.



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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:32 AM


The report used in this part of the discussion was the one generated from the BBC one, which is why I mentioned it.

As to the blurb:

Most people over 65 aren't generally looking for employment or 'learning', they use the net to buy stuff, look up hotels in Benidorm and skype their kids in Australia - and that's only the few that WANT to use the net, the vast majority have no interest at all, and it doesn't impact their lives if they don't bother with the net.



I have so assume you did not bother to read this:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/36000/12-p168-2011-skills-for-life-survey.pdf

Whilst access to the internet is widespread, ONS figures suggest that in the first quarter of 2011,
8.71 million adults had never used the internet,312 and these tended to be those aged over 65,
the widowed and those with a disability. This is potentially concerning as ‘using a computer and
the internet are now basic skills for employability and many other aspects of learning and
living’.313
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ranger121
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Again,

Most people over 65 aren't generally looking for employment or 'learning', they use the net to buy stuff, look up hotels in Benidorm and skype their kids in Australia - and that's only the few that WANT to use the net, the vast majority have no interest at all, and it doesn't impact their lives if they don't bother with the net.

People who don't bother, don't want to, or can't be bothered trying to find out about using the net are not 'disadvantaged' in any way.

Quote:
 
The views expressed in this report are those of the authors and not necessarily those of the Department for Business Innovation and Skills or any other Government Department
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:41 AM


People who don't bother, don't want to, or can't be bothered trying to find out about using the net are not 'disadvantaged' in any way.

They will be disadvantaged if you bother to read the thread starter. Which is why I started the thread.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 09:46 AM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:41 AM


People who don't bother, don't want to, or can't be bothered trying to find out about using the net are not 'disadvantaged' in any way.

They will be disadvantaged if you bother to read the thread starter. Which is why I started the thread.
Think you'll find that the government's idea that everything is 'digital', includes the use of the telephone as well.

Something that everyone has access to.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 09:51 AM
Think you'll find that the government's idea that everything is 'digital', includes the use of the telephone as well.

Something that everyone has access to.
Ranger I suggest you just give up.

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/150-training-a-education/8169-computing-teachers-concerned-that-pupils-know-more-than-them.html

Computing Teachers Concerned That Pupils Know More Than Them

Written by Sue Gee
Tuesday, 13 January 2015

A survey of UK schools carried out by Microsoft and Computing at School reveals some worrying statistics that are probably more widely applicable.

The UK is working hard to introduce a new emphasis on computer science at school but, as always, the problem is getting the teachers up to speed. With computing there is the added difficulty that if a teacher is a good programmer or just a good sys admin then they can probably earn a lot more elsewhere.

The survey revealed that (68%) of primary and secondary teachers are concerned that their pupils have a better understanding of computing than they do. Moreover the pupils reinforced this finding with 47% claiming that their teachers need more training. Again to push the point home, 41% of pupils admitted to regularly helping their teachers with technology.

On the plus side, 69% of the teachers said that they enjoyed teaching the new computing curriculum and 73% felt confident in delivering it. However, 81% still thought that they needed more training, development and learning materials.

Interestingly, only 41% of the pupils wanted to learn more computing than was already being taught in schools, and only 40% thought that their teachers knew more than they did about advanced things like coding and building websites.

This isn't all due to the teachers being new at the task - 76% had taught computing before the new curriculum was introduced. It seems that switching from an approach that emphasised computer literacy to one that actually wants students to do more difficult things is the reason for the problem.


Edited by papasmurf, Jan 15 2015, 10:08 AM.
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ranger121
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You can suggest whatever you want.

The subject of whether people are 'disadvantaged' because they don't want to, can't or won't access the internet is nonsense.

You don't need to tell me that there's a 'generation gap' in IT knowledge, as I was in a government office when computers were introduced to workers, who had to go on training courses to learn to use a mouse, send an email and open a word document.

If you said 'copy and paste' to them, they would look blank at you.

Edited by ranger121, Jan 15 2015, 10:13 AM.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 10:08 AM
You can suggest whatever you want.

The subject of whether people are 'disadvantaged' because they don't want to, can't or won't access the internet is nonsense.

It isn't nonsense when arrogant politicians as per the thread starter state they will HAVE to use the internet to deal the benefits/pensions, and a one day training course will be available.
If I die before my wife she will be completely lost, she can't do anything via computer other than the most basic things and she is not alone by a very long way. (Yesterday I had to help her with online pension tracing, she would have been completely unable to do that without me.)
As for claiming benefits online, it is bad enough trying to help people fill the forms out with a pen, let alone doing so online.
It has in rare instances taken over a week to fill a claim form out for benefits, most of that finding the information required.
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ranger121
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If they HAVE to use the net to access government services, then they will do, in some shape or form.

Just because some people don't own a mobile phone, doesn't stop them using a call-box, does it?
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 13 2015, 02:46 PM
RJD
Jan 13 2015, 02:39 PM
If you did then you are capable of showing the steps you made in your deduction. This is going to be interesting.

You did not specify what you would do about those (20% of claimants according to the DWP,) who are not IT literate/don't have internet access.
Therefore the logical assumption is you would do nothing.
Rubbish. Read my words, explain your steps and then I will point out the fallacy.
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papasmurf
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 10:25 AM
If they HAVE to use the net to access government services, then they will do, in some shape or form.

Just because some people don't own a mobile phone, doesn't stop them using a call-box, does it?
What call boxes?
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RJD
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 12:28 AM
Rich
Jan 15 2015, 12:21 AM
Affa
Jan 14 2015, 04:54 PM
I believe it was the recognition that pensioners, the aged, would have a hard time coping with ATM machines and Bank Debit card use that persuaded the PO to keep open many of it rural branches .... old folk like to cash their pension book/giro just as they always have.
That recognition and the climb down wasn't to pander to cranky old fogies - it was because it was realised that quite a lot would not be able to make the adjustment, and risk putting themselves into serious trouble.




I understand that a good many senior citizens enjoy going to the local PO to withdraw funds as it gets them out and gives them a chance to chat to someone other than themselves.
Yes but it's far from all or even the overwhelming majority

Do you know how many OAPs can't remember their own PIN?

Yes we all suffer from such senior moments, but designing a system where those that forget what a pen is for or do not recall where they left their spectacles is wrong headed. You design for future requirements, which are digital, and then cater for minority groups, some of which will require, as today, the support of friends, families, charities and/or State services.
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ranger121
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 10:26 AM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 10:25 AM
If they HAVE to use the net to access government services, then they will do, in some shape or form.

Just because some people don't own a mobile phone, doesn't stop them using a call-box, does it?
What call boxes?
Oh, you mean for those elderly people who live on their own in isolated rural areas with no buses, taxis or neighbours, who are house-bound with absolutely no family to help, no state assistance at all with anything, abandoned by everyone?

What, both of them are completely helpless?
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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:28 AM
then cater for minority groups, some of which will require, as today, the support of friends, families, charities and/or State services.
As today? You really are out of touch. (as is the government, the DWP, all three main parties in parliament, and UKIP.)
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 10:37 AM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:28 AM
then cater for minority groups, some of which will require, as today, the support of friends, families, charities and/or State services.
As today? You really are out of touch. (as is the government, the DWP, all three main parties in parliament, and UKIP.)
Friends, families and charities have all come to a grinding halt have they? If so why are you wasting your time here, go help a neighbour with his/her requirements, you have a PC.
Time for the Usuals to stop whinging, get off their backsides and take up charitable actions as we cannot and should not expect the State to do everything.
Why is the left whinge and the right do? (That will stir the buggers up).


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Steve K
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 10:25 AM
If they HAVE to use the net to access government services, then they will do, in some shape or form.

Just because some people don't own a mobile phone, doesn't stop them using a call-box, does it?
No for many they will just give up and not claim the support they are entitled to and it is hard to escape the conclusion that that is what Francis Maude wants

A key thing in society is personal dignity, the not calling in personal help unless it is desperate, the wish to keep private matters private. Francis Maude doesn't care about that and based on the WiFi incident it seems he only cares about one thing in life: himself.


I note your objection to the way I challenged some of your assertions. OK I will rephrase them.



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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:43 AM
Friends, families and charities have all come to a grinding halt have they? If so why are you wasting your time here, go help a neighbour with his/her requirements, you have a PC.



I do help others with various problems RJD, (latest a long term domestic violence victim, who could not get legal aid due to cuts, and a lack of police willingness to help,) but many people do not have family or friends who are able to help, (they are often in the same mire as the person who needs help,) and due to current government policies increasing the number of people needing help exponentially charities are overwhelmed.
Edited by papasmurf, Jan 15 2015, 10:58 AM.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 10:56 AM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:43 AM
Friends, families and charities have all come to a grinding halt have they? If so why are you wasting your time here, go help a neighbour with his/her requirements, you have a PC.



I do help others with various problems RJD, (latest a long term domestic violence victim, who could not get legal aid due to cuts, and a lack of police willingness to help,) but many people do not have family or friends who are able to help, (they are often in the same mire as the person who needs help,) and due to current government policies increasing the number of people needing help exponentially charities are overwhelmed.
Really with your addiction to TV and this forum I do not see how you find the time. From my personal experience providing such charitable support can be very time consuming. I find your claims difficult to believe and see you as addicted to whinging and disinterested in practical solutions. You are, for me, as our American friends would say a "no can do person", thank goodness there a lot of the opposite types who are very willing to help their neighbours in need of support.



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Affa
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 10:53 AM

No for many they will just give up and not claim the support they are entitled to and it is hard to escape the conclusion that that is what Francis Maude wants

That some, a considerable number, will by default miss out on entitlement is the real concern, I agree.
IF Maud sees this as a bonus saving or not I do not contend. The idea proposed is one to save money on paper and administration costs. Most people that are able (computer literate and have access) will already be using electronic transfers for their benefits as their preferred option. His plan is to remove the option for those that do not have it or are uncomfortable with it. Yet another plan that focuses entirely on cutting spending and not at all about the provision of service - and my dislike of Maud goes back further than this - he is despicable for having been false of several occasions in the past.

Some Trade Unions do fund Training Courses for their members. The last government saw this as a good thing, a benefit towards raising skills levels in the workforce, and pertinently, much needed skills, and so donated monies to these training funds.
Maude called it Laundering tax payers money whereby the Labour party was financing itself indirectly through giving tax payer money to the Unions which was then returned to the party through political donations ...... (expletive).

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Tytoalba
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papasmurf
Jan 14 2015, 08:49 AM
Tytoalba
Jan 13 2015, 11:37 PM
Most public libraries today have an internet section and willing staff. No doubt carerers could have a laptop or tablet to take with them.
You do realise how many public libraries have closed, and the distances involved for many people to get to and from them.
Plus the number of people queued up to use what little facilities there are. Then there is the security issue.
Just for a laugh see how you get on registering on this:-
http://www.gateway.gov.uk/
Some people seem to see the negatives in everything, but of course everyone grows older daily, and the younger internet and computer literate will grow old and the problem no longer apply. From experience there is nearly always somewhere to turn to for advice, and trial and error are bot good teaching aids.
I find all new forms or systems difficult at first until you understand them or adjust to them. for they seem to be composed by people who are well used to the processes and can work their ways a round them , but most instructions seem to assume that the basics referred to are known and understood by the person reading them. Fear of new ways and systems deters many from buying or trying them out, Feed back by letter or E mail can improve matters for others
Simple basic flow charts instructions assuming nothing are what is needed and if you make mistakes with forms you will get your own feed back with requested details missed or overlooked.
You tube can be helpful for there are many postings on how to do this or that.

I'm just about to get onto a Government website to apply for a blue badge for someone else, or I might just drive 40 miles roundtrip to the council office. so that should be entertaining but which makes the point that the computer can be a lot quicker and cheaper that the time spent with cost of going to offices to get the forms and help to fill them in.
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RJD
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Tytoalba
Jan 15 2015, 11:21 AM
papasmurf
Jan 14 2015, 08:49 AM
Tytoalba
Jan 13 2015, 11:37 PM
Most public libraries today have an internet section and willing staff. No doubt carerers could have a laptop or tablet to take with them.
You do realise how many public libraries have closed, and the distances involved for many people to get to and from them.
Plus the number of people queued up to use what little facilities there are. Then there is the security issue.
Just for a laugh see how you get on registering on this:-
http://www.gateway.gov.uk/
Some people seem to see the negatives in everything, but of course everyone grows older daily, and the younger internet and computer literate will grow old and the problem no longer apply. From experience there is nearly always somewhere to turn to for advice, and trial and error are bot good teaching aids.
I find all new forms or systems difficult at first until you understand them or adjust to them. for they seem to be composed by people who are well used to the processes and can work their ways a round them , but most instructions seem to assume that the basics referred to are known and understood by the person reading them. Fear of new ways and systems deters many from buying or trying them out, Feed back by letter or E mail can improve matters for others
Simple basic flow charts instructions assuming nothing are what is needed and if you make mistakes with forms you will get your own feed back with requested details missed or overlooked.
You tube can be helpful for there are many postings on how to do this or that.

I'm just about to get onto a Government website to apply for a blue badge for someone else, or I might just drive 40 miles roundtrip to the council office. so that should be entertaining but which makes the point that the computer can be a lot quicker and cheaper that the time spent with cost of going to offices to get the forms and help to fill them in.
Having first learned to program computers in the early 1960s and lived with them all my working life, I find pen and paper more difficult than down-loading from the internet. Today most of my friends are in the age group 65 to 85 and they are all computer savvy. Yes there is a minority group with no such digital skills, a declining number, but our future requirements should not be designed as if they are the norm.

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Steve K
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:43 AM
papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 10:37 AM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 10:28 AM
then cater for minority groups, some of which will require, as today, the support of friends, families, charities and/or State services.
As today? You really are out of touch. (as is the government, the DWP, all three main parties in parliament, and UKIP.)
Friends, families and charities have all come to a grinding halt have they? If so why are you wasting your time here, go help a neighbour with his/her requirements, you have a PC.
Time for the Usuals to stop whinging, get off their backsides and take up charitable actions as we cannot and should not expect the State to do everything.
Why is the left whinge and the right do? (That will stir the buggers up).


I make the point again, for many old people their dignity requires that they do not impose on friends and family unless they have to. So they will eat and heat badly rather than ask for someone to take over completing forms for them. Why should they have to give their financial details to a third party who they may or may not trust in order for the state to receive their claim for benefit they are entitled to?

It is not like misuse of an elderly person's assets by a conniving relative, friend or helper is an unheard of crime.

Right now if they choose they can get the forms, fill them in, seal them in an envelope and get someone else to post them and their private matters are private between them and the DWP. It is of course their explicit right in UK law to be able to keep their private matters private but then Francis Maude does't care about the law does he with his ideas on hoarding petrol, obeying security rules . . . . .
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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 11:06 AM
Really with your addiction to TV and this forum I do not see how you find the time.

What "addiction to TV and this forum?" Also RJD I have plenty of time. Helping the lady with the long term domestic violence problem, merely involved, one trip driving her to pro bono session with a specialist solicitor, (found on the internet,) and driving her to two police stations.
Monday night a "waif and stray" slept on our sofa, because he is estranged from his father and would have spent all night out in severe weather otherwise.
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RJD
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papasmurf
Jan 15 2015, 11:31 AM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 11:06 AM
Really with your addiction to TV and this forum I do not see how you find the time.

What "addiction to TV and this forum?" Also RJD I have plenty of time. Helping the lady with the long term domestic violence problem, merely involved, one trip driving her to pro bono session with a specialist solicitor, (found on the internet,) and driving her to two police stations.
Monday night a "waif and stray" slept on our sofa, because he is estranged from his father and would have spent all night out in severe weather otherwise.
Your claims Mr Smurf, not mine, however, I find them hard to believe. You might do a bit, but as you have time on your hands, your claim, with little to do but whinge here on matters mostly beyond your ken, I suggest you could and should, for the benefit of us all, do more. Charity giving is therapeutic and can be of great benefit to the receiver.


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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 11:36 AM
I suggest you could and should, for the benefit of us all, do more.
I suggest you should start doing something period. You give the impression you would not give your urine to a thirsty dog.
As for what I do for people, that in detail is quite frankly none of your business, and due to the nature of it I could not legally or morally detail it anyway due to very necessary confidentiality. My wife and I have as most other local people have been doing increasing donations of food to the local food banks, and the local charity providing hot meals for children during school holidays.
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Steve K
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ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 12:23 PM
Quote:
 
This account says different

If it was an office used to hold government papers it should in any event be to list X standards, he broke those.

He's an arrogant idiot
All the accounts circulating in the media at the time said different, as if the man had broken some kind of rule or protocol. It was used to 'beef up' the story.

There is no wifi-access in government offices. Government computers are not wireless-enabled. Everything is hard-wired.

So him having his iPad connected to a private network instead of a government one is not a security risk UNLESS he sends government business data over it, which he can't, as he cannot connect his iPad to the government server system.

It's exactly the same as if he connected his phone to a laptop and went from there.

He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.

ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 11:17 PM
I have this evening tested this.

My mother, who is 77, and does not have a computer and does not have the desire to own one so came to use mine to claim a benefit.

I offered to do it for her, but she insisted on doing it herself.

She completed the claim in less than 15 minutes.

My mother is of 'average' intelligence yet completely IT illiterate, but can use the government's online system, so I reckon a large percentage of your duck-eggs will be much the same.

Just because they are 'old', they are NOT helpless.


There are a huge number of people aged over 77

Posted Image


And is every son/daughter as honest? Posted Image

Does everyone without internet have a close relative nearby with secure internet access. Posted Image
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RJD
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 12:07 PM
ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 12:23 PM
Quote:
 
This account says different

If it was an office used to hold government papers it should in any event be to list X standards, he broke those.

He's an arrogant idiot
All the accounts circulating in the media at the time said different, as if the man had broken some kind of rule or protocol. It was used to 'beef up' the story.

There is no wifi-access in government offices. Government computers are not wireless-enabled. Everything is hard-wired.

So him having his iPad connected to a private network instead of a government one is not a security risk UNLESS he sends government business data over it, which he can't, as he cannot connect his iPad to the government server system.

It's exactly the same as if he connected his phone to a laptop and went from there.

He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.

ranger121
Jan 13 2015, 11:17 PM
I have this evening tested this.

My mother, who is 77, and does not have a computer and does not have the desire to own one so came to use mine to claim a benefit.

I offered to do it for her, but she insisted on doing it herself.

She completed the claim in less than 15 minutes.

My mother is of 'average' intelligence yet completely IT illiterate, but can use the government's online system, so I reckon a large percentage of your duck-eggs will be much the same.

Just because they are 'old', they are NOT helpless.


There are a huge number of people aged over 77

Posted Image


And is every son/daughter as honest? Posted Image

Does everyone without internet have a close relative nearby with secure internet access. Posted Image
Seems that there are a lot more people who are <77 years of age.

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ranger121
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Quote:
 
He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.


Government computers have no active usb slots that you can plug such a device into. The CD drives are also crippled.

The government email system will not allow any government data outside of the internal email system, all emails are actively scanned.

The computers will not allow ANYTHING at all to be downloaded from the net, and nothing other than officially-approved, scanned, internally-served, fully-licenced software from Microsoft is permitted to be used.

It is a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the a usb slot on a government computer, despite them being disabled.

It is even a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the usb slot on the MONITOR, such as if charging your phone and the like, and can render one liable to dismissal.

So how does one transfer data again?
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ranger121
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Quote:
 
Seems that there are a lot more people who are <77 years of age.


And this makes my example invalid because?
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