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Internet or starve? Tory Minister.
Topic Started: Jan 11 2015, 07:41 PM (789 Views)
papasmurf
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Francis Maude is an idiot, "internet refuseniks," "a one-off lesson to help them get on to the internet. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10889563/Go-on-the-internet-or-lose-access-to-government-services-Francis-Maude-tells-pensioners.html

3:51PM BST 10 Jun 2014

Go on the internet - or lose access to government services, Francis Maude tells pensioners

Elderly people will have to have to go on to the internet or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said




Elderly people will have to have to go on online or risk losing access to key government services, Francis Maude has said


The Cabinet Office minister said in the future most public services would only be available on the internet “because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives”.


Mr Maude said that online 'refuseniks' who did not want to use computers would be able to apply for a one-off lesson from to help them get on to the internet.


But he said that in future the Government would only make services available over the internet, in the same way an airline sells tickets.


Ministers are migrating dozens of public services on to the internet, including the carers' allowance, which is used by 3.2million carers a year, the small claims service, and Lasting Powers of Attorney, which allow families to take control of a loved one's financial affairs.

The comments were greeted with dismay by groups representing the estimated five million pensioners in their 80s and 90s who have never been on the internet.

Dot Gibson, general secretary of the National Pensioners’ Convention, said: “The move towards largely digital only services could pose a huge problem for millions of older people.

Over five million of today's pensioners have never been online, and this is particularly true for those who are at the upper end of the pensioner age group, in their 80s or 90s.

"It's also a problem for poorer pensioners who may not be able to afford a computer and the other equipment needed. Fundamentally there’s an information gap that the government are creating.

“Just because someone uses the computer now, doesn't mean they will want to when they are 85. The idea that we all have to be digital citizens or else we end up as second-class citizens is wrong.”

Lisa Harris, Saga's communications manager, said: "It is somewhat disingenuous to assume that everybody wants to be online. Recent research shows that the vast majority of those that are not online have made a conscious choice not to be.

"To say that all 'old' people should be online and all they need is a little mollycoddling is somewhat patronising.

"Government needs ensure that people have proper protection online, such as ensuring banks and financial institutions treat those who make genuine mistakes fairly, but also provide help and advice for those that want it.

"It is essential that people are able to deal with public services in a way that suits them. The digital tide is certainly turning, but Government need to ensure we can all ride the technology wave and not leave some left to drown unaided because they don't choose to 'conform'."

Mr Maude was unveiling figures to an audience of civil servants at the Treasury showing the billions saved by the Government from moving Government services by moving Government services online.

Asked by the Telegraph if all Government services would be online at some stage, he said: “Our point is that everything that can be delivered online, should be delivered online and only online.”

He added: “There are some things that are physical and can’t be online. The key point is that like airlines, airlines do everything that is not physical, is not about actually flying the aeroplanes online, which is better for them and better for the passenger.”

People who were not used to the internet would be given a one off lesson – an “assisted digital option” – to be trained up with using the internet.

This would see charities paid by the Government to sit with older and vulnerable people as they went online to access services.

He said: “It should be provided by an organisation, who don’t want to do this repeatedly, but who will provide this option as a way of helping that citizen to become online and stay online because we think that is a better thing for people’s lives.”

One example were lasting powers of attorney, which families can need if they want to get control over the financial affairs of a parent or a vulnerable sibling.

He said that a new application was launched last month which means that pages of forms no longer have to be completed by family members.

He said: “The assisted digital is being provided by a group of charities who work in this area – so Age UK, the Alzeimers' society, they are providing the assisted digital service – no one is excluded.

“They are doing it in a way to help get those people online because actually people will have richer lives if they are digitally engaged.”

A Cabinet Office spokesman: “We will always provide assistance for those who need help in accessing government services online.

"The world is changing and when you can bank online at midnight and shop from your bedroom, people rightly expect high-quality digital services from government.”

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RJD
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 02:41 PM
Quote:
 
He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.


Government computers have no active usb slots that you can plug such a device into. The CD drives are also crippled.

The government email system will not allow any government data outside of the internal email system, all emails are actively scanned.

The computers will not allow ANYTHING at all to be downloaded from the net, and nothing other than officially-approved, scanned, internally-served, fully-licenced software from Microsoft is permitted to be used.

It is a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the a usb slot on a government computer, despite them being disabled.

It is even a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the usb slot on the MONITOR, such as if charging your phone and the like, and can render one liable to dismissal.

So how does one transfer data again?
Two tins and a long piece of wet taught string perhaps?
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RJD
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 03:17 PM
Quote:
 
Seems that there are a lot more people who are <77 years of age.


And this makes my example invalid because?
Just making a point that there are more people under 77 years of age, based on pure expectation it is likely that these have greater digital skills than the older group and are also likely to live longer, points that are certainly worth considering when investing Taxpayers money for future needs.

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ranger121
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:20 PM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 02:41 PM
Quote:
 
He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.


Government computers have no active usb slots that you can plug such a device into. The CD drives are also crippled.

The government email system will not allow any government data outside of the internal email system, all emails are actively scanned.

The computers will not allow ANYTHING at all to be downloaded from the net, and nothing other than officially-approved, scanned, internally-served, fully-licenced software from Microsoft is permitted to be used.

It is a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the a usb slot on a government computer, despite them being disabled.

It is even a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the usb slot on the MONITOR, such as if charging your phone and the like, and can render one liable to dismissal.

So how does one transfer data again?
Two tins and a long piece of wet taught string perhaps?
Interestingly, one can't plug string into a government computer, either.

The string-thing is disabled.
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RJD
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 03:32 PM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:20 PM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 02:41 PM
Quote:
 
He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.


Government computers have no active usb slots that you can plug such a device into. The CD drives are also crippled.

The government email system will not allow any government data outside of the internal email system, all emails are actively scanned.

The computers will not allow ANYTHING at all to be downloaded from the net, and nothing other than officially-approved, scanned, internally-served, fully-licenced software from Microsoft is permitted to be used.

It is a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the a usb slot on a government computer, despite them being disabled.

It is even a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the usb slot on the MONITOR, such as if charging your phone and the like, and can render one liable to dismissal.

So how does one transfer data again?
Two tins and a long piece of wet taught string perhaps?
Interestingly, one can't plug string into a government computer, either.

The string-thing is disabled.
Quite right as I understand that ISIS have now mastered the wet string technique. From what you say it seems to me a sensible precaution to avoid, as far as that is possible, none approved Department Operatives gaining direct access into where your data-base resides, but could this not have been simply achieved with standard hardware platforms via passwords or fingerprint or combinations of such. Sometimes I wonder if expensive hammers are used to crack little nuts. That said I have no hacking skills.



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ranger121
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:42 PM
Quite right as I understand that ISIS have now mastered the wet string technique. From what you say it seems to me a sensible precaution to avoid, as far as that is possible, none approved Department Operatives gaining direct access into where your data-base resides, but could this not have been simply achieved with standard hardware platforms via passwords or fingerprint or combinations of such. Sometimes I wonder if expensive hammers are used to crack little nuts. That said I have no hacking skills.



Government computer systems are utterly secure, hard-wired and cannot be accessed from the outside.

They've already thought of that bit, which is why Maud cannot do his 'normal business' on them.

The system cannot be 'hacked', even from the inside, without huge bells ringing and lights flashing and so on.

Or rather a big red flag appears on your security file.

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RJD
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 03:49 PM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:42 PM
Quite right as I understand that ISIS have now mastered the wet string technique. From what you say it seems to me a sensible precaution to avoid, as far as that is possible, none approved Department Operatives gaining direct access into where your data-base resides, but could this not have been simply achieved with standard hardware platforms via passwords or fingerprint or combinations of such. Sometimes I wonder if expensive hammers are used to crack little nuts. That said I have no hacking skills.



Government computer systems are utterly secure, hard-wired and cannot be accessed from the outside.

They've already thought of that bit, which is why Maud cannot do his 'normal business' on them.

The system cannot be 'hacked', even from the inside, without huge bells ringing and lights flashing and so on.

Or rather a big red flag appears on your security file.

You fill me with confidence, is it true of the MOD?
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ranger121
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 04:03 PM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 03:49 PM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:42 PM
Quite right as I understand that ISIS have now mastered the wet string technique. From what you say it seems to me a sensible precaution to avoid, as far as that is possible, none approved Department Operatives gaining direct access into where your data-base resides, but could this not have been simply achieved with standard hardware platforms via passwords or fingerprint or combinations of such. Sometimes I wonder if expensive hammers are used to crack little nuts. That said I have no hacking skills.



Government computer systems are utterly secure, hard-wired and cannot be accessed from the outside.

They've already thought of that bit, which is why Maud cannot do his 'normal business' on them.

The system cannot be 'hacked', even from the inside, without huge bells ringing and lights flashing and so on.

Or rather a big red flag appears on your security file.

You fill me with confidence, is it true of the MOD?
Not having worked there, I wouldn't know.

If the same (or even more stringent, because of the subject matter) security measures are applied there as are applied across the government's DWP set-up, then yes, I would be confident that nobody has hacked them.
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RJD
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 04:39 PM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 04:03 PM
ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 03:49 PM
RJD
Jan 15 2015, 03:42 PM
Quite right as I understand that ISIS have now mastered the wet string technique. From what you say it seems to me a sensible precaution to avoid, as far as that is possible, none approved Department Operatives gaining direct access into where your data-base resides, but could this not have been simply achieved with standard hardware platforms via passwords or fingerprint or combinations of such. Sometimes I wonder if expensive hammers are used to crack little nuts. That said I have no hacking skills.



Government computer systems are utterly secure, hard-wired and cannot be accessed from the outside.

They've already thought of that bit, which is why Maud cannot do his 'normal business' on them.

The system cannot be 'hacked', even from the inside, without huge bells ringing and lights flashing and so on.

Or rather a big red flag appears on your security file.

You fill me with confidence, is it true of the MOD?
Not having worked there, I wouldn't know.

If the same (or even more stringent, because of the subject matter) security measures are applied there as are applied across the government's DWP set-up, then yes, I would be confident that nobody has hacked them.
Excellent news. I wonder how we rate compared with other countries for such security, Germany seems to be particularly vulnerable to such attacks, so does the USA?
I suspect the Italians provide access to everything for everyone, Joe Public too, as a Machiavellian ploy.
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Steve K
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RJD
Jan 15 2015, 12:12 PM
Seems that there are a lot more people who are <77 years of age.

So?

There are a lot more people that don't live in Wales so hey ho lets make it difficult for the Welsh to claim their pensions. How about they have to score 501 blindfold ending on a double inside 12 darts all videoed live to DWP Cardiff or no pension for you boyo

Or of course we could have an inclusive society where a measure is judged on whether the risk of someone in need losing out badly has been reduced to be as low as reasonably practicable.

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Steve K
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ranger121
Jan 15 2015, 02:41 PM
Quote:
 
He would have emailed documents across or used a thumb drive or other media. Unfortunately it is easy once you know enough IT skills to be dangerous.


Government computers have no active usb slots that you can plug such a device into. The CD drives are also crippled.

The government email system will not allow any government data outside of the internal email system, all emails are actively scanned.

The computers will not allow ANYTHING at all to be downloaded from the net, and nothing other than officially-approved, scanned, internally-served, fully-licenced software from Microsoft is permitted to be used.

It is a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the a usb slot on a government computer, despite them being disabled.

It is even a disciplinary offence to plug anything into the usb slot on the MONITOR, such as if charging your phone and the like, and can render one liable to dismissal.

So how does one transfer data again?
That is the sort of policy being implemented. In one office I saw, an alarm would go off if an unauthorised thumb drive was put into the USB socket of a computer on a secure high network.

So far so good?

Well apart from the tiny little point that I know I have been handed government files on such USB drives and CD ROMs, there is the point that Maude was breaking IT security rules in 2013 and your statement is present tense. The DWP your experience would have been based on is in any event only part through implementing it's IT strategy and an audit last year showed gaps between what should be and what was.

And then there's the email point. When I was working on a secure network I could email protected information. Yes as you say the catch being that there was a constant monitor looking to see what was being emailed to who. And of course we never knew of any ways round it did we Posted Image

Security always depends on people acting in a trustworthy way, Maude wouldn't get to stir the tea in any secure office I've been in. Why Cameron hasn't cut off his balls for his crass vote losing inanity I know not. Maybe they don't trust Cameron with scissors anymore.
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ranger121
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Wasn't there a thread not long ago where some were complaining about the cost of the multiple services that the DWP administers? In order to be 'all-inclusive', it is obliged to bend over backwards, and does; yet -

When some minister announces what they are doing to cut those costs by providing more digital services rather than paper-based admin-heavy ones, He's all of a sudden the prophet of doom?

Damned if they do, and again if they don't...
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Steve K
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Yes it is OK to save money when the cost of not doing so would be disproportionate to the factored risk of people losing out

The clear difference here is some of us think Maude doesn't buy that at all, he just thinks save money and stuff anyone that loses out.

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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 07:11 PM


The clear difference here is some of us think Maude doesn't buy that at all, he just thinks save money and stuff anyone that loses out.

In other words typical Tory.
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ranger121
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 07:11 PM
Yes it is OK to save money when the cost of not doing so would be disproportionate to the factored risk of people losing out

The clear difference here is some of us think Maude doesn't buy that at all, he just thinks save money and stuff anyone that loses out.

An in any large-scale IT scheme, especially those run by committee such as a government, will always take huge amounts of time and effort to put in place. Take a peek at the always-just-around-the-corner-nearly-ready-small-easy-targets-first-replace-all-benefits-all-singing-all-dancing Universal Credit.

This won't happen during this Parliament, the next, or probably the one after that.

Providing it isn't cancelled in the meantime.
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RJD
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Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 07:11 PM
Yes it is OK to save money when the cost of not doing so would be disproportionate to the factored risk of people losing out

The clear difference here is some of us think Maude doesn't buy that at all, he just thinks save money and stuff anyone that loses out.

Do you have any numbers to put on the table? I read just a few years ago about the $billions the US had saved by moving to digital. I do not know how much all that paper, postage and time costs or how much of this gets shredded but I bet it could put a very interesting amount on the table for those who justifiable receive welfare benefits.

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Steve K
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RJD
Jan 17 2015, 05:23 PM
Steve K
Jan 15 2015, 07:11 PM
Yes it is OK to save money when the cost of not doing so would be disproportionate to the factored risk of people losing out

The clear difference here is some of us think Maude doesn't buy that at all, he just thinks save money and stuff anyone that loses out.

Do you have any numbers to put on the table? I read just a few years ago about the $billions the US had saved by moving to digital. I do not know how much all that paper, postage and time costs or how much of this gets shredded but I bet it could put a very interesting amount on the table for those who justifiable receive welfare benefits.

No, it is for Maude to justify his paperless disenfranchising proposal by showing the cost/benefit/loss analysis.

As for the USA I really doubt they have saved any money let alone the astronomical figure you suggest. I have regularly encountered the fiasco in the USA where you have to fill out more paper to show you have considered if the original paper was needed. In any event a quick look shows you can still claim for welfare in the USA using paper forms if you don't wish to apply on line so clearly they realise Maude's ideas are the dribblings of an arrogant uncaring nutter
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ranger121
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It's fairly obvious that 0.00000001 pence per ACII character has got to be cheaper than a sheet of A4.

The problem is 'inclusion' which means inevitably that the DWP has to provide both, (in as many languages as is required) at considerable cost.

Which is something people object to.
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