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| Your Manifesto Priorities. | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 15 2015, 10:23 AM (649 Views) | |
| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 10:23 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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For me 1). reduce the public spending deficit to zero asap. Certainly on or before 2020 as the promise for 2015 has been missed by a long mile. 2). significantly cut public spending as a share of GDP. Here ~40% of GDP should be the target. 3). to establish a timetable to substantially reduce the national debt as a share of GDP to 40% by running a surplus, in as far as that is possible, in each of every year until such is achieved. 2030 would be a good target. I would like to see it lower, but the consensus seems to be that 40% is the maximum acceptable for reasons of economic security. 4). By fiscal means rebalance the economy away from consumption towards greater exportable production, hence reducing and eliminating our trade deficit by exporting more of our products. As everything else flows from the above they are therefore my imperatives. What are yours? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 10:26 AM Post #2 |
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Senior Member
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I assume you don't give a monkies (expletive deleted) about the consequences to people of your policies RJD. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 10:32 AM Post #3 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Which are? My response must be that you do not give a monkeys about future generations and the current unemployed. You clearly also do not seem to understand that a growing economy will afford a growing Public Sector spend in absolute terms. Yes I know you wear your heart on your sleeve, we see that every day, however, where did you misplace your head? So what are your priorities? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 10:34 AM Post #4 |
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Senior Member
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You should have carried out an impact assessment so you know. You should not need to ask. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 10:44 AM Post #5 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Clearly your only skill is whinging. I do not expect solutions from your quarter. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 10:49 AM Post #6 |
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Senior Member
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My problem RJD is like the Tories you really do not care what damage your policies would do to the poorest and most vulnerable people. You have made it abundantly clear you have no knowledge whatsoever about the damage being done in your locality, and could not care less either. |
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| Happy Hornet | Jan 15 2015, 10:56 AM Post #7 |
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Senior Member
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PS your kick everyone of post 1948 immigrant stock policy would have terrible consequences for poor and vulnerable people as well, it would literally kill people and you don't give a monkeys about that. To have a man who wants to drag my 90 year old housebound grandmother from her home and throw her into a cattle truck lecture others about their lack of empathy seems so absurd I can't even get angry about it. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 11:06 AM Post #8 |
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Senior Member
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It isn't I don't give a monkies, it is the fact the alternative is far far worse, and that is the fault of successive governments since 1945. |
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| Happy Hornet | Jan 15 2015, 11:10 AM Post #9 |
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Senior Member
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PS, have you considered the possibility that like you, some Tories see the policies they advocate as the least worst option rather than simple ideological spite? |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 11:10 AM Post #10 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Just put up your list or shut up. This thread I hope is for those with something to contribute. I am tired of your constant whinging, lack of positive contribution towards solutions and shallow attitude to what counts as evidence, not to mention your foggy attitude to what counts as logical deduction. Mr Smurf you are as far as I am concerned a serial time waster with little to offer but a long whinge and that is on a single unmusical note. |
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| Affa | Jan 15 2015, 11:30 AM Post #11 |
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Senior Member
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Most Political Parties will share those objectives. Where they differ is how best to attain them. Austerity measures (four year programme) will not deliver any of them. In fact without significant growth in GDP none of it is in any way achievable. Stagnation is delaying the recovery ......... stagnation for party political advantage is treasonous imo. Edited by Affa, Jan 15 2015, 11:30 AM.
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 11:33 AM Post #12 |
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Senior Member
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You know my list RJD, I don't need to put it up. |
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| Tigger | Jan 15 2015, 11:36 AM Post #13 |
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Senior Member
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In no particular order. 1. Break up the banking sector and enforce real competition, encourage "socially useless"aspects of the City to sod off elsewhere and bring in the total separation of so called high street banking from risky "investment banking. 2. Introduce a land tax and reform the housing market by again introducing real competition by spending all current housing subsidies on a 1950's style government housebuilding scheme. 3. Join the Euro and stop trying to undermine it because if we don't it will be us ending up with the bloody nose. 4. Tax breaks for targeted industries such as manufacturing, science and other productive enterprises, again as in the post war era. 5.German style immigration controls, roll out the red carpet for those who are able to add to the value of the things mentioned in point four. 6.Increase spending on education to at least the European average, scrap the present university fees and adopt a long term approach to workplace training. 7.Reform Westminster and do away with the HoL an unelected second chamber is an insult in a democracy. 8. Remove the private sector from education, the NHS and the majority of public services, it has been a disaster and many firms just screw the taxpayer whilst not giving two hoots about the services they run. 9 If possible regain control of public utilites as most are now in foreign hands leaving us open to economic blackmail, we must have control of the basic services we all need, 10.Focus on the young not the old, the policies of the blue team are in my opinion anti social to anyone under forty years of age, the other lot are not much better. By enacting these policies I believe we can break from the damaging boom and bust cycles and get away from the dead end and highly divisive direction the country is heading, I'm looking ten or more years ahead and not to the next general election or shareholders AGM. In other words a complete break from the past which is failing the vast majority of this nations people. |
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| Tigger | Jan 15 2015, 11:40 AM Post #14 |
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Senior Member
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By presumably cutting public spending which knowing you will include education, where are we going to get all these skilled people from for this export drive? |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 15 2015, 11:45 AM Post #15 |
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Senior Member
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You have not convinced me that austerity measures will not work. I find your reasoning in relation to this impenetrable. That said I think we actually agree on one aspect of austerity, this being that it hurts the most vulnerable, disproportionately. I don’t think taxing the rich further will realistically result in tackling the deficit. Further cuts will only hurt the poor even more. Therefore the elephant in the room is raising taxes on the middle classes (I guess this includes me). Politically I suspect that the majority of the Middle classes vote and so this would be a difficult sell. Economically will increasing taxes on the middle class to reduce the deficit stifle growth as they will have less spending power? |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 11:55 AM Post #16 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Tig: 1. Break up the banking sector and enforce real competition, encourage "socially useless"aspects of the City to sod off elsewhere and bring in the total separation of so called high street banking from risky "investment banking. How? What are "socially useless aspects"? What is the difference between "real" competition and any other variety? 2. Introduce a land tax and reform the housing market by again introducing real competition by spending all current housing subsidies on a 1950's style government housebuilding scheme. Again the subjective word "real" and no indication on the magnitude and source of all subsidies? 3. Join the Euro and stop trying to undermine it because if we don't it will be us ending up with the bloody nose. Are you not concerned that joining the Euro at the wrong exchange rate and when our economy is not convergent then millions of UK jobs could be destroyed. Do you not think that the increasing divergence of the economies in the EZ and the very high rates of unemployment, particularly with young people, is a matter of concern? Or is your position just pure dogma? 4. Tax breaks for targeted industries such as manufacturing, science and other productive enterprises, again as in the post war era. Could warm to this, but need to understand priorities as it makes no sense to throw money at industries where there is a massive global oversupply, as with did in the post war era with basic steels. 5.German style immigration controls, roll out the red carpet for those who are able to add to the value of the things mentioned in point four. Like this one. 6.Increase spending on education to at least the European average, scrap the present university fees and adopt a long term approach to workplace training. 7.Reform Westminster and do away with the HoL an unelected second chamber is an insult in a democracy. Don't really care either way as long as the second chamber, if it must exist, is not a clone of or in competition with the HofP. Get rid of it if you like. 8. Remove the private sector from education, the NHS and the majority of public services, it has been a disaster and many firms just screw the taxpayer whilst not giving two hoots about the services they run. I have the complete opposite view. Funny how the Germans manage to live with a high degree of privatisation with their health services. I think the unmitigated disaster is the public sector lack of customer focus, it is universally employee-centric. 9 If possible regain control of public utilites as most are now in foreign hands leaving us open to economic blackmail, we must have control of the basic services we all need, No evidence anywhere that this will do anything other than increase costs to customers and reduce quality of services. When evidence of benefit to Joe Public can be demonstrated then I could be persuaded. Until then just a myth from the Red Nag. 10.Focus on the young not the old, the policies of the blue team are in my opinion anti social to anyone under forty years of age, the other lot are not much better. Unfortunately for you those over 40 also get to vote. I could drum up a claim that we might all be better off if we culled all those under 40. Tig: By enacting these policies I believe we can break from the damaging boom and bust cycles and get away from the dead end and highly divisive direction the country is heading, I'm looking ten or more years ahead and not to the next general election or shareholders AGM. In other words a complete break from the past which is failing the vast majority of this nations people. I see nothing in your proposals that will moderate the economic cycle and much that will exacerbate it, particularly the one about joining the Euro no matter what the economic conditions prevailing at that time. Little said that helps with real job creation or rebalancing the economy away from consumption. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 11:58 AM Post #17 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I did not say reduce Public Spending to zero. Nobody is asking to cut Public Spending down to Victorian levels, but to what we can currently afford and that is around the spend of 2001/02, I think we had schools and training colleges in those days. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 12:04 PM Post #18 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I cannot subscribe to the belief that we are free to borrow and spend on current consumption today and pass the cost on to subsequent generations. I accept that moving from high levels of public spending which lead to increases in consumption, to lower levels cannot be achieved without, for some, much inconvenience and economic pain, but as the lady said TINA. You are free to believe the exact opposite, if so I must ask why do you not propose even higher levels of borrowing as there are plenty of things that Politicians can find to spend money on? Where are your constraints, your red lines, your Moral Compass? Or do you have none? |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 12:10 PM Post #19 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You will not get significant growth in GDP without significant improvements in productivity and doing nothing other than spend is not going to improve these. We can wish for the Moon, but if we do nothing then you know...... Remember for every job lost in the Public Sector post 2010 three were created by the Private Sector, a sector that is struggling, just think about what could be done if it were not. Fundamentally we need to focus on the drivers that force through higher levels of productivity as we are compared to others laggards and we need to rebalance the economy away from consumption towards more production. Do you know of other ways to achieve such? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 12:13 PM Post #20 |
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Senior Member
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George Osborne is, plus with the massive loss of revenue because of the drop in oil prices he will have to raise taxes in the next budget. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 12:19 PM Post #21 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You are able to substantiate your claims? I do not think so as I can show them up to be the usual hogwash. So put up your proof for me to shoot down, as they say put up or shut up. |
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| Steve K | Jan 15 2015, 12:19 PM Post #22 |
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Once and future cynic
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You did of course check your figures? Seems not Public spending in real terms from the end of Victoria's reign til now I really suggest you look up the word 'hyperbole' |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 12:24 PM Post #23 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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At £720 billion, the level of state spending in 2020 will be almost ten times higher the levels of the 1930s in real terms. As well as the word hyperbole I suggest one adds BS as he is full of it. I suspect he is scared of listing his priorities for fear of ridicule, let's see. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 12:32 PM Post #24 |
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The massive loss in tax from oil is not hyperbole. Neither is Osborne's stated level of cuts to welfare should he still be in place after the general election. |
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| Steve K | Jan 15 2015, 12:56 PM Post #25 |
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Once and future cynic
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You said Osborne was planning to cut spending to the levels of "Victorian Times", the data shows that to be the wildest of wild exaggerations IE hyperbole on steroids. It always gets spotted and pointed out and as a result significantly dilutes any serious points you were trying to make. Utterly self defeating. |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 15 2015, 12:58 PM Post #26 |
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Senior Member
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Increasing tax to reduce the deficit until growth combined with lesser cuts brings about a balance. No mention of increasing borrowing. |
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| Affa | Jan 15 2015, 01:06 PM Post #27 |
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Senior Member
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Austerity measures has meant more than spending cuts to public services (some of which can justified, some not), but also a wage freeze. Instead raising the minimum wage by £2-3 ph would have multiple effects .......... more consumerism (our economy is consumer based), narrows the wealth gap, and is a stimulus for growth. This is just one policy that is the reverse of of Plan A ...... plan A delivered stagnation, even RJD has recognised that. A stimulus creates jobs, reduces welfare spending, and presents further business opportunities = a BIGGER MARKET. There's much that can be done besides ...... reforms to Banking, the Housing market, and tax reforms that close loopholes. "All in it together" could actually mean something, and with no-one actually being hurt too badly in the process. Where's National pride when top Civil Servants are avoiding tax liabilities? It wouldn't hurt them to be taxed at the same level as the majority of tax payers. And they might then sleep a little better on a night after spending all day penny pinching off those trying to deliver overburdened public services or those struggling on reduced benefits ....... the ones that ARE HURT. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 01:10 PM Post #28 |
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There is no hyperbole involved, there are 60% of his current cuts to welfare yet to take effect, he wishes to add another £30 billion of cuts to welfare to that. That will lead to Victorian types of deprivation. |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 15 2015, 01:26 PM Post #29 |
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How do you define "Victorian type levels of deprivation" |
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| ACH1967 | Jan 15 2015, 01:30 PM Post #30 |
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I think increasing the minimum wages is probably on balance a good idea. I do not believe this will lead to an exodus of jobs as the majority of those on minimum wage are employed in the domestic market. This would increase overheads in the domestic market though but given that we are looking at potential deflation this might not be such a bad thing. As long as you are not proposing increasing borrowing to create a stimulus. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 15 2015, 01:34 PM Post #31 |
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Already here locally, charity providing hot meals for children during school holidays, a level of food bank use that is quite frankly staggering in a so called civilised country. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 03:47 PM Post #32 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Well in relative terms the UK must therefore be highly civilised. You know that numbers of Food Banks are not the measure and once we get to absolute terms your claims are just drivel. Best follow the money. The UK is a very generous country both at home and abroad in relative terms, unfortunately we do have a goodly stock of serial whingers who can never ever be satisfied as they were born to whinge. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 04:01 PM Post #33 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Affa: Austerity measures has meant more than spending cuts to public services (some of which can justified, some not), which not? Affa: but also a wage freeze. Instead raising the minimum wage by £2-3 ph would have multiple effects .......... more consumerism (our economy is consumer based), narrows the wealth gap, and is a stimulus for growth. unfortunately The Low Wage Commission do not agree with you they claim that such an increase will kill off jobs. Affa: This is just one policy that is the reverse of of Plan A ...... plan A delivered stagnation, even RJD has recognised that. No I have not and neither has ONS or any creditable authority. We have not seen much in the way of so called austerity and we have not had a triple dip recession or stagnation, we have had a correction. Affa: A stimulus creates jobs, reduces welfare spending, and presents further business opportunities = a BIGGER MARKET. Yep you can borrow money from the future, dish it out and suck in imports and that will not do much for British jobs. Might increase the trade deficit a tad though. Affa: There's much that can be done besides ...... reforms to Banking, the Housing market, and tax reforms that close loopholes. What are these reforms you refer to? Affa: "All in it together" could actually mean something, and with no-one actually being hurt too badly in the process. Rubbish we will always want those with more to contribute more and in my view it is morally wrong to ask those that you label as being poor to contribute anything. "All in it together" is a BS soundbite designed by Politicians for idiots. Affa: Where's National pride when top Civil Servants are avoiding tax liabilities? It wouldn't hurt them to be taxed at the same level as the majority of tax payers. And they might then sleep a little better on a night after spending all day penny pinching off those trying to deliver overburdened public services or those struggling on reduced benefits ....... the ones that ARE HURT. I find it remarkable that the State cooperates in such schemes and I am not convinced that the large salaries enjoyed by many are the market rate, most of these people are Cost Centre Managers following a proscribed budget and not to be equated with the role of others in the Private Sector that must balance risk, live from an uncertain budget and deliver the goods. I believe that such positions in the Public Sector will attract many worthy applicants prepared to take the positions at lower wages. Mind you it is not in their interest for you to know this. |
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| C-too | Jan 15 2015, 04:07 PM Post #34 |
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Honourable Member
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Is there a difference between Public Spending and Total Spending? |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 04:10 PM Post #35 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I think it should be "Total Public Spending". Anyway it will be significantly higher in 2020 than it was in 1930 in real terms. |
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| C-too | Jan 15 2015, 04:12 PM Post #36 |
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Honourable Member
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An export led recovery as in Attlee's approach following WWII? Hmm fancy that. |
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| RJD | Jan 15 2015, 04:23 PM Post #37 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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And why not? I have always supported production over consumption, but unfortunately at the end of the day Politicians have to deliver. Attlee was certainly the best Labour Minister and Labour PM since WW2, but he had quality around him and a lot of hands on experience unlike poor Milliband who appears totally out of his depths. Whilst I would not support Atlee's dogma I am allowed to respect the abilities of the man and I suspect in 2015 he would no longer be an old fashioned Socialist, he too would have moved on. I wish the Labour Party and the Tories too had more men of his caliber today. We seem to have a surfeit of boys that have done nothing and are very wet behind the ears. Even that old rogue Wilson had guile. |
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| Tigger | Jan 15 2015, 05:23 PM Post #38 |
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Senior Member
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1. What use is high frequency trading, endless money churning for a fee and currency speculation, no I don't know either, all are anti social and destructive and add no value, something you continually bang on about. 2. As you live under a Welsh rock and drink blue hemlock in copious quantities it may have escaped your attention that we spend approx £24bn a year on housing benefit, the bulk of it going to those who actually work, we have funding for lending, subsidies for house builders and help to buy among other things, all these things skew the market, got that now? 3. Britain is not going to reconquer the World as a trading nation or join some English speaking only trading bloc we simply lack the clout, influence and sheer muscle to do so, participate in Europe and embrace it, it's not going away and much of it already outperforms us, time to bury the Empire and wake up to the fact it's the 21st century and not the 19th. 4.Target areas we are already good at to start with, high precision and high tech manufacturing drug development and the luxury goods market are all areas that would benefit from useful tax breaks. 5. 6. It's pointless a relic of history, get rid of the Lords. 8/9. Privatisation of the public utilities for example has been an embarrassing and shameful disaster, the idea was to free these from state control, many are now owned by foreign state controlled enterprises! We have also seen this last week how a private company reacts when it buggers up running a hospital, it just does a runner and it gets dumped back on the taxpayer, and this will doubtless become standard practice, time to put practicality over pathetic political dogma and dodgy private finance. 10.Young people are effectively disenfranchised with all the main parties pandering to the grey vote to a lesser or greater degree, fact, the majority of the elderly are unproductive and cost far more than they are worth in economic terms, and they still insist on spending their kids inheritance! My parents who lived and fought during the war had the noble concept that you left the country a slightly better place after you departed this Earth, you generation in particular threw that one out the nearest window, time to start thinking of other people instead of just yourself............. Edited by Tigger, Jan 15 2015, 05:24 PM.
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| Tigger | Jan 15 2015, 05:34 PM Post #39 |
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Senior Member
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Shift the tax burden away from work and onto assets, you already know this thanks to me. This is exactly what the post war Attlee government did and productivity, investment and particularly exports boomed, we outperformed everyone in Europe and our productivity was rivalling even the US. No more pussy footing around, the majority of us are sick to death of housing booms, consumer debt and money shuffling as drivers of economic "growth". Debt spirals will not end until we fix the root cause of the problem. |
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| Affa | Jan 15 2015, 05:53 PM Post #40 |
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2:32 PM Jul 11