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| The truth about freedom of movement | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 19 2015, 10:58 PM (870 Views) | |
| krugerman | Jan 19 2015, 10:58 PM Post #1 |
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Regular Member
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New research findings have today revealed that there are at least 30,000 British people claiming out of work benefits in other EU states, and that there are in actual fact more Brits claiming benefits in other states than people from other states claiming in Britain. This is despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments. The figures differ from state to state, for example in Germany there are four times as many Britons claiming German unemployment benefit than there are Germans claiming British JSA, but overall there are less Europeans claiming in this country than there are Britons claiming in Europe. So much for David Cameron demanding changes to the free movement rules because of Europeans claiming British benefits. In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of Britons banking unemployment cheques is almost three times as high as the nationals of those countries receiving parallel UK benefits – 23,011 Britons to 8,720 nationals of those nine countries in the UK. The number of British people using the Spanish healthcare system is more than all EU migrants who use the British health system, so where does this leave not only David Cameron, but also that most well known xenophobe "Nigel Farage". ? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu |
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| Steve K | Jan 19 2015, 11:03 PM Post #2 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well that's a Adds to my belief that benefits should be paid by the country of citizenship not location |
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| Pro Veritas | Jan 19 2015, 11:21 PM Post #3 |
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Upstanding Member
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Bullshit! There's close to 6 Million immigrants come in to the UK over the last decade. The idea that only 30,000 of them are claiming benefits is, frankly, laughable. All The Best |
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| Steve K | Jan 19 2015, 11:25 PM Post #4 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes of course Pro V you do seem to disbelieve any stat that gets in the way of your theories. Go on then where's your evidence? And you might want to read what Krugerman actually posted. |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 19 2015, 11:26 PM Post #5 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Your point is somewhat blunted by a lack of consideration of how level the playing field is. There's a bloody awful echo round here didnt I just do this in another thread...... The EU is required to give me the right to live in it and apply to work in it. That some british passport holders choose to do that it as surprising as night following day and taxation following death. If an eu country pays state benefits and subsidies to its own I expect them to pay them to me in equal measure as their own passport holders as per the treaties. But you know full well the isues are payment of uk benefit at uk rates to eu returnees after their departure from the uk, giving them more than a non migrant gets, and the circumstances in which tgey get tgem, and for how long. If these were the same, or adjusted for the country of current residence cost of living, and if all countries terminated your residence right in the same way after the same period I would be satisfied... But they are not, are they |
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| papasmurf | Jan 20 2015, 08:52 AM Post #6 |
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The problem is the British government isn't arguing it is lying. The elephant in the room is not the few new immigrants who end up claiming a benefit, it is the very high percentage of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are on benefits. With in some cases a 60%-75% unemployment rate. Edited to add this link about the French benefits system, which probably accounts for the only 3000(ish) Brits claiming unemployment benefits, which are time limited. https://www.justlanded.com/english/France/France-Guide/Jobs/Unemployment-protection Edited by papasmurf, Jan 20 2015, 09:27 AM.
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| C-too | Jan 20 2015, 09:41 AM Post #7 |
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Honourable Member
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Your post adds a very relevant element to the equation, an element that was probably previously unknown to most people. Well done.
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| Deleted User | Jan 20 2015, 09:18 PM Post #8 |
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Did anyone bother to look at the bottom part of the table? |
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| Steve K | Jan 20 2015, 10:07 PM Post #9 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes. Go on what did I miss? |
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| AndyK | Jan 20 2015, 10:20 PM Post #10 |
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Just count the numbers on the right hand side of the chart and compare with the left and the only conclusion you can come to is that the whole article is complete bullshit. |
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| Steve K | Jan 20 2015, 10:43 PM Post #11 |
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Once and future cynic
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You'll only think that if you don't read the article. Give it another read and you'll see the chart is about numbers across the EU and the headline and bulk of article are about numbers in the main countries and crucially the value of benefits claimed
Which the chart totally backs up |
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| Nonsense | Jan 21 2015, 12:39 AM Post #12 |
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So, are you trying to convince the rest of us, that 'research' by the 'Guardian' is the 'truth' about the benefit situation in respect of various country's citizens claiming benefits in other countries? If you are quoting the 'Guardian' as a source of 'truth', you are just about to make me & others LMFAO. The 'Guardian' is a left-wing 'rag', nothing more, nothing less. It even does the obligatory quote from some left-winger from a university, a regular occurrence seen quite often with EU funded left-wing 'researchers' from the London School of Economics on the same topic of EU claimants or migrants. Quote;"that there are in actual fact more Brits claiming benefits in other states than people from other states claiming in Britain". SOURCE PLEASE!! Britain & Germany are TWO 'net' contributors to the EU budget, are you saying that, on balance, the 'point' you are making is credible, given that we & Germany pay more into the pot than we take out? Remember, the other countries, by definition, take OUT more than they pay in, so, in FACT, they are NOT incurring any 'real' cost in respect of paying benefits to these Brits abroad. Edited by Nonsense, Jan 21 2015, 12:50 AM.
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| Steve K | Jan 21 2015, 09:10 AM Post #13 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well let's look at the quality of your research "we & Germany pay more into the pot than we take out? Remember, the other countries, by definition, take OUT more than they pay in" Never heard of Italy, Denmark or Belgium? Perhaps you also forgot the Netherlands which not only is a net contributor it contributes more per person than anyone. In fact 13 countries are net contributors and even more if you do the import duty maths the UK way Here's a primer for you: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/index_en.cfm |
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| papasmurf | Jan 21 2015, 09:17 AM Post #14 |
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The sources are the statistics offices for each country. You can go wading through each countries government statistics departments if you like, I don't intend to. The figures for Ireland and France are no surprise to me. |
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| Nonsense | Jan 21 2015, 11:48 AM Post #15 |
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As you can see Steve K, I only quoted the German\ British position, I never gave the complete picture, it's simply the point that I was making, in contrast to the OP's line that the people amongst us who disagree with the effects of 'freedom of movement', that is the balance of claimants in each euro country that claim benefits & their own country of origin. I would not dispute that other EU countries are 'net' contributors, anymore than the fact that there are 'net' beneficiaries. Perhaps, if each country within the EU had the right to claim any benefit cost from claimants making claims, by forwarding such claims for these cost to the claimants home country(whether inside the EU or outside),the positional anomalies would, in due course, equalise out. I mean, why should any EU nation, have to bear the cost of unemployment, health, housing et'c, when other countries are merely offloading their cost through migration, internally within the EU or externally from the rest of the world, the UK probably being the worst offender in that respect? |
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| Nonsense | Jan 21 2015, 11:49 AM Post #16 |
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It sounds like a 'cop-out' to me. |
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| Deleted User | Jan 21 2015, 12:01 PM Post #17 |
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Well for a start the bulk of the EU nationals claiming JSA seems to be from that part of the chart...Eastern Europe. Then perhaps you might have suspected that the Guardian is making a rather non relevant and somewhat dishonest point. They say that at least 30000 Brits are claiming benefits in the EU ( well I added up the chart and it came to 26628 but that must be the minimum that we can assert is claiming the rest is conjecture) then goes on to say that Brits in RICHER EU states outnumber the claimants from those RICHER states in the UK. I have never heard anyone complain about hoards of Germans or Swedes claiming benefits in the UK. The complaints are about the disparity with the EU as a whole. When you add up the JSA claimants in the right column it totals 64830 EU claimants. So there IS a disparity between EU claimants in the UK and UK claimants in the EU but the Guardian is trying somehow conceal the obvious by focusing on the richer EU countries . The disparity between the claimants from Eastern European countries and the UK claimants in Eastern Europe( EU) far outweighs the disparity between UK claimants in the Richer EU countries and the claimants of the richer EU countries in the UK. Thats what you missed.
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| Deleted User | Jan 21 2015, 12:10 PM Post #18 |
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I would read it again old chap. The paper states that approx 30000 UK emigrants claim unemployment benefits in EU countries which equates to 2.5% of them. Whereas approx 65000 EU nationals claim JSA in the UK which equates to 2.5% of EU immigrants in this country. From that they are claiming there is no disparity..which is clearing wrong. |
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 12:29 PM Post #19 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Did I not read exactly the opposite view yesterday, that UK claimants in the EU were swamped by the numbers of EU citizens, excluding Brits, making such claims here. Were is the evidence? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 21 2015, 12:33 PM Post #20 |
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You did, in the Torygraph by a Tory who obviously has not seen the data on the subject. |
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 12:43 PM Post #21 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Evidence? No dogs, no cats and no bogus links please. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 21 2015, 12:54 PM Post #22 |
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The evidence is in the Tory commenting in the Torygraph who obviously was not up to speed with the data from European governments, which has been detailed in this thread RJD, (I am not responsible for the thread starter so have a go at the author of it, not me.) |
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| AndyK | Jan 21 2015, 01:33 PM Post #23 |
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You are cherry picking numbers to suit your argument, it doesn't wash. There are 1.5 million foreign born babies in the UK all claiming child benefit. There are 5 million recently arrived foreign nationals in this country, that takes at least £50 bn in benefits to service. You can not win this argument, we lose on every single numeric metric on this topic ! |
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| Affa | Jan 21 2015, 02:18 PM Post #24 |
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Some time back I made the point that Migrant workers from the (new) Eastern bloc countries send money back to their homeland, either directly or indirectly on their return after earning a nest egg/investment port folio. The Polish economy is one of the fastest growing economies in the EU ......... and why I remind of this is to point out that this money (much of it taken out of the UK economy) does not appear on official stats as a contribution to the EU - it is however a huge loss to us and a considerable benefit to those lands. Edited by Affa, Jan 21 2015, 02:18 PM.
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 02:55 PM Post #25 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I only hold you responsible for your statements. |
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| avagrumble | Jan 21 2015, 03:07 PM Post #26 |
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Some on here will believe anything thats written if it backs up their distaste for the party in power. Those supposedly drawing unemployment benefit abroad are mainly skilled personel whose current job has finished and are probably awaiting fresh employment. The six million or so that has flocked to Britain (some skilled but mostly unskilled) come here because Britains benefit system is a huge safety net if they cannot find work. The unskilled, mainly chancers, find work at supermarkets car parks washing cars, its probably money in the hand work, so they could still be claiming money. Why do you think they are queing up at Calais to get here, because France does'nt want them, and gives them nothing. Unlike weak Britain who not only give them money, but also puts them up in three star hotels, no wonder they are traveling thousand of miles to get here. The people who run our benefit system are not fit for purpose. "That seems to be the IN phrase at the moment" |
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 03:15 PM Post #27 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Please do not say such things too loudly as it hurts children's feelings. |
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| Affa | Jan 21 2015, 03:41 PM Post #28 |
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To add to the post I made about how much money Poles send to Poland from the UK, money that does not appear in stats regarding UK EU contributions ......... three years ago the Mail wrote it was in excess of £3bn pa. (One country, there are others, Pakistan and India must not be ignored). That's a lot of investment for Poland and money we could do with here to improve our own economy. |
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 03:50 PM Post #29 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I think Poland receives the largest contributions from EU Coffers. I think the UK is one of the largest net contributors to the EU Big Coffer. So directly and indirectly we are now paying the Poles for letting them down so badly at the end of WW2. |
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| Affa | Jan 21 2015, 04:21 PM Post #30 |
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In the same article it was said that we send £4.3ml pw in child benefits and tax credits for children living in Poland. I also saw a Telegraph article that made the statement that over £500ml goes to other EU countries in a similar fashion. Meanwhile it was on TV this afternoon where a couple with one severely disabled child living in a three-bed house were having to pay £66 pm they could not afford as a consequence of the under occupancy rule. |
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| Pro Veritas | Jan 21 2015, 06:16 PM Post #31 |
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Upstanding Member
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Shhh now. We don't want any inconvenient truths undermining the dishonest liberal bollocks about immigration now do we? All The Best |
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| Deleted User | Jan 21 2015, 06:21 PM Post #32 |
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Do we have any idea how many are doing this and how much is involved? |
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| RJD | Jan 21 2015, 06:31 PM Post #33 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I am sure there are a lot of people willing to make such a claim. I think the rule is a sensible one, but the Gov. should have phased it in over a longer period. You give that example but I can cite a single woman, kids grown and flown the nest, still in a 3 bedroom house with subsidised rent who has decided it is best in order to stay where she is, near her friends, to go out and get an income. Why should those that desperately need three bedrooms or more be told to sit and wait whilst others have subsidised accommodation with greater space than their needs? It makes no sense. What does make sense is to phase, dovetail, such changes according to conditions that exist locally. Funny how this is a decision for Local Gov who have provisions to support individual cases.. |
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| Affa | Jan 21 2015, 06:34 PM Post #34 |
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Over £3bn to Poland every year based on 2009/10 figures ....... (Daily Mail as source - also the Telegraph) £4.3ml per week in tax credits and child allowance for children still living in Poland. (Telegraph January 2015) Others Nationalities make similar or larger contributions to their homeland (which isn't the UK though they are British Citizens) ..... I refer to Pakistanis and Indians. Edited by Affa, Jan 21 2015, 06:37 PM.
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| Steve K | Jan 21 2015, 10:30 PM Post #35 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well at least we agree on that, I have been arguing for this for years |
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| Steve K | Jan 21 2015, 10:31 PM Post #36 |
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Once and future cynic
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I do rather think you've missed the point that the "bottom of the table" isn't the whole of the table and certainly isn't extrapolated points from thoughts raised by the table. |
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| Steve K | Jan 21 2015, 10:37 PM Post #37 |
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Once and future cynic
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Perhaps you could say just what "argument" you think I was putting forward? And can we have links please to those asserted stats of yours. I rather doubt that there are "5 million recently arrived foreign nationals in this country" and even more that the numbers that have arrived require "at least £50 bn in benefits to service" but if you can show otherwise I will stand corrected |
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| Tigger | Jan 21 2015, 10:47 PM Post #38 |
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Rather shocking and it knocks on the head the notion that those who do come to the UK to work actually do the country an economic favour by just being here, I'd hazard a guess and say the main beneficiaries of imported labour are those who let out property and the businesses who employ them, the taxpayer overall might not be getting such a good deal. Edited by Tigger, Jan 21 2015, 10:49 PM.
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| Affa | Jan 21 2015, 10:56 PM Post #39 |
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http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migrants-uk-overview Highest yearly increase - 2005 -2006 = 900,000. Regardless of 'how many went back home' at any one snap shot in time over 11% of the population residing in the UK are Foreign Nationals. Edited by Affa, Jan 21 2015, 10:56 PM.
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| krugerman | Jan 21 2015, 10:57 PM Post #40 |
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For time immemorial the British have lived and worked all over the globe in their millions, through days of empire, and in more modern times in the oilfields of the middle east to the building sites of Europe, and we have always sent money back home. Yet another stupid avenue of reasoning - European migrants are not good for our economy because a proportion of them send money home. Almost all migrant workers from Europe rent or buy property, they pay council tax, they pay income tax and national insurance, they pay VAT, they pay duty on petrol, duty on alcohol and cigarettes, gambling tax, they buy things in shops. Contrary to the usual claims about public services, many migrants from Europe have actually helped to preserve local services, their presence in some areas has improved local services, bringing for example nursery schools to areas where there was no nursery school, and their presence in some rural areas of Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire and parts of Yorkshire means that some local services are safe. I do feel that the xenophobes and UKIP supporters are running out of excuses, still I suppose its better than the reasons people used to give back in the 1970s ..... "they smell"...."they eat pet food" ......."well it aint right, their just not British" |
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2:32 PM Jul 11