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The truth about freedom of movement
Topic Started: Jan 19 2015, 10:58 PM (869 Views)
krugerman
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New research findings have today revealed that there are at least 30,000 British people claiming out of work benefits in other EU states, and that there are in actual fact more Brits claiming benefits in other states than people from other states claiming in Britain.

This is despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

The figures differ from state to state, for example in Germany there are four times as many Britons claiming German unemployment benefit than there are Germans claiming British JSA, but overall there are less Europeans claiming in this country than there are Britons claiming in Europe.

So much for David Cameron demanding changes to the free movement rules because of Europeans claiming British benefits.

In Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of Britons banking unemployment cheques is almost three times as high as the nationals of those countries receiving parallel UK benefits – 23,011 Britons to 8,720 nationals of those nine countries in the UK.

The number of British people using the Spanish healthcare system is more than all EU migrants who use the British health system, so where does this leave not only David Cameron, but also that most well known xenophobe "Nigel Farage". ?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu
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papasmurf
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krugerman
Jan 21 2015, 10:57 PM


I do feel that the xenophobes and UKIP supporters are running out of excuses,
There no way around the long term sustainable population carrying capacity issue though, which really is the Mammoth in the room.
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Affa
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Tigger
Jan 21 2015, 10:47 PM
Affa
Jan 21 2015, 06:34 PM
gansao
Jan 21 2015, 06:21 PM

Do we have any idea how many are doing this and how much is involved?

Over £3bn to Poland every year based on 2009/10 figures ....... (Daily Mail as source - also the Telegraph)
£4.3ml per week in tax credits and child allowance for children still living in Poland. (Telegraph January 2015)

Others Nationalities make similar or larger contributions to their homeland (which isn't the UK though they are British Citizens) ..... I refer to Pakistanis and Indians.



Rather shocking and it knocks on the head the notion that those who do come to the UK to work actually do the country an economic favour by just being here, I'd hazard a guess and say the main beneficiaries of imported labour are those who let out property and the businesses who employ them, the taxpayer overall might not be getting such a good deal.

I made a better reference to this situation in an earlier post ... but you are correct to identify who it is that these migrants benefit the most .... the numbers claiming tax credits for children back in Poland tells you the whole story .... employers pay crap wages and the tax payer foots the bill for top-ups and benefits - include housing benefit (to Private Landlords) and we can quickly see who it was that Mrs T was looking out for when she embarked on here Nation of Property owners kick.

Quote:
 
by 1971 there was an equal percentage of households owning and renting.
Ownership continued to increase, reaching a peak of 69% in 2001, however in the last decade it has fallen to 64%


http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census-analysis/a-century-of-home-ownership-and-renting-in-england-and-wales/short-story-on-housing.html

Even those renting have been priced out of the Property Market -
Quote:
 
the number of people living in private rented accommodation has risen from 2.2million in 2002/03 to nearly 3.9million last year.
The number of people renting from private landlords now outstrips those in council and housing association homes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/houseprices/10663923/Rise-of-Generation-Rent-as-home-ownership-hits-25-year-low.html

But all this is off topic ......... a factor only in why the tax payer picks up the bill for the support given to homeless migrant workers.

Privatisation has killed Right to Buy dream.



Edited by Affa, Jan 21 2015, 11:22 PM.
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Nonsense
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Post #42

"Privatisation has killed Right to Buy dream".

Yeah, well, it's ONLY a 'dream 'isn't it, I mean, after all, we are, for the next few months anyway, living the 'Tory' 'dream', or is it, the 'Tory' 'nightmare'?
Edited by Nonsense, Jan 21 2015, 11:41 PM.
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Pro Veritas
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krugerman
Jan 21 2015, 10:57 PM
Yet another stupid avenue of reasoning - European migrants are not good for our economy because a proportion of them send money home.
If you genuinely think this is a "stupid avenue of reasoning" you are, pardon my French, a fuckwit.

All The Best
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RJD
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krugerman
Jan 21 2015, 10:57 PM
For time immemorial the British have lived and worked all over the globe in their millions, through days of empire, and in more modern times in the oilfields of the middle east to the building sites of Europe, and we have always sent money back home.

Yet another stupid avenue of reasoning - European migrants are not good for our economy because a proportion of them send money home.

Almost all migrant workers from Europe rent or buy property, they pay council tax, they pay income tax and national insurance, they pay VAT, they pay duty on petrol, duty on alcohol and cigarettes, gambling tax, they buy things in shops.

Contrary to the usual claims about public services, many migrants from Europe have actually helped to preserve local services, their presence in some areas has improved local services, bringing for example nursery schools to areas where there was no nursery school, and their presence in some rural areas of Cambridgeshire, Lincolnshire and parts of Yorkshire means that some local services are safe.

I do feel that the xenophobes and UKIP supporters are running out of excuses, still I suppose its better than the reasons people used to give back in the 1970s ..... "they smell"...."they eat pet food" ......."well it aint right, their just not British"
It is a matter of principle, has a sovereign State the right to decide who comes and stays here to work? It might be that the State decides that it needs 500,000 economic migrants each year to feed the economy, I doubt that, but surely it should have the responsibility to regulate and control. An open door makes, for me, no sense unless you first accept the premise that the UK is no longer a sovereign State and in reality is no more than another region of the EU. What are we?




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papasmurf
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RJD
Jan 22 2015, 09:13 AM
It might be that the State decides that it needs 500,000 economic migrants each year to feed the economy,


Ignoring the Mammoth in the room of the country being at least 40 million over the long term sustainable population carrying capacity.
(Then the elephants in the room of a lack of housing, the infrastructure falling to bits, and electricity supply very close to capacity with effectively no margin left.)
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 09:28 AM
RJD
Jan 22 2015, 09:13 AM
It might be that the State decides that it needs 500,000 economic migrants each year to feed the economy,


Ignoring the Mammoth in the room of the country being at least 40 million over the long term sustainable population carrying capacity.
(Then the elephants in the room of a lack of housing, the infrastructure falling to bits, and electricity supply very close to capacity with effectively no margin left.)
You keep repeating that,but don't apart from kicking people out of the country unless the can trace there family back a couple of generations,you have no answer to bring the population down
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 09:45 AM
,you have no answer to bring the population down
I do, for a start stop all immigration.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 09:48 AM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 09:45 AM
,you have no answer to bring the population down
I do, for a start stop all immigration.
How many century's will that take to get rid of the 40 million extra we have here
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 10:28 AM
How many century's will that take to get rid of the 40 million extra we have here
If they had been no immigration with the high birth rate of many of the immigrants that comes with it, the population would have been dropping steadily for the last 40 years, because the birth rate of the "indigenous" population dropped below the replacement rate around 40 years ago.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 10:59 AM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 10:28 AM
How many century's will that take to get rid of the 40 million extra we have here
If they had been no immigration with the high birth rate of many of the immigrants that comes with it, the population would have been dropping steadily for the last 40 years, because the birth rate of the "indigenous" population dropped below the replacement rate around 40 years ago.
No point in saying what we should have done 40 years ago,that's done,
How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:34 AM

How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people
Old ground that has been done to death on this forum and the old one.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 11:42 AM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:34 AM

How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people
Old ground that has been done to death on this forum and the old one.
I knew you didn't have an answer,shame you don't have the balls to say it
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:50 AM
I knew you didn't have an answer,shame you don't have the balls to say it
I have made my solution very clear whenever this has been discussed on this forum and the old one, there is no point is going over old ground.
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Steve K
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:50 AM
papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 11:42 AM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:34 AM

How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people
Old ground that has been done to death on this forum and the old one.
I knew you didn't have an answer,shame you don't have the balls to say it
well we could start in the extreme South West throwing people into incinerators and then move North East until enough gone ;-)

It's a joke PS but does show that there is no easy way to 'remove' people. Some group would have to be treated with horrible victimisation

Your no immigration and have lower birth rates would probably get us there in sufficient time but does have the issue that the population would become increasingly aged and unless people worked to ~75 it would all be sustainable

So I also go back to ending the measures to discourage informed smoking, if people want to volunteer to increasingly die in their 50s to 70s for a bit of extra pleasure in their earlier years then why on earth should we stop them when we can't afford for them to live longer?
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 12:01 PM

It's a joke PS but does show that there is no easy way to 'remove' people.
Quite, but as time passes and nothing is done, the more nasty the solution will be. As for the population getting older, the latest set of longevity stats showing life expectancy getting lower for the first time. Given the obesity and various other factors, I suspect life expectancy to drop like a stone from now on.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 12:07 PM
Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 12:01 PM

It's a joke PS but does show that there is no easy way to 'remove' people.
Quite, but as time passes and nothing is done, the more nasty the solution will be. As for the population getting older, the latest set of longevity stats showing life expectancy getting lower for the first time. Given the obesity and various other factors, I suspect life expectancy to drop like a stone from now on.
Yes there was an unexpected dip. Don't think it's going to continue but we'll see.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 12:10 PM
Yes there was an unexpected dip. Don't think it's going to continue but we'll see.
Unlike some cynical people I am not blaming current government policy for the unexpected dip. I just do not expect people born after the 2nd World War to have the life expectancy of those born before it.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 11:59 AM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 11:50 AM
I knew you didn't have an answer,shame you don't have the balls to say it
I have made my solution very clear whenever this has been discussed on this forum and the old one, there is no point is going over old ground.
Because it shows you up for what you really are.
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 12:16 PM
Because it shows you up for what you really are.
What I really am is too close to death to worry about the impending disaster that the country being well over the long term sustainable carrying capacity is going to cause. I made a decision over 50 years ago not to add to the population, with the result I have no children to suffer what is coming.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 12:21 PM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 12:16 PM
Because it shows you up for what you really are.
What I really am is too close to death to worry about the impending disaster that the country being well over the long term sustainable carrying capacity is going to cause. I made a decision over 50 years ago not to add to the population, with the result I have no children to suffer what is coming.
In a few million years the sun will blow up and destroy the earth,that hasn't stopped me having kids.
You must think people are so selfish for adding to the UKs problems by having offspring
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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 12:42 PM

You must think people are so selfish for adding to the UKs problems by having offspring
No, it is ignorance is bliss on their part.
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Affa
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Quote:
 
How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people?


Is a dumb question, and does not require an answer because as a venture it is never going to be undertaken, - by any government, not even UKIP or the BNP.

Edited by Affa, Jan 22 2015, 01:07 PM.
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 12:59 PM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 12:42 PM

You must think people are so selfish for adding to the UKs problems by having offspring
No, it is ignorance is bliss on their part.
So all parents over the last 40 years are ignorant in this country,imagine what would be happening if the rest of the great country felt the same as you,Logan's run in reverse
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HIGHWAY
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Affa
Jan 22 2015, 01:06 PM
Quote:
 
How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people?


Is a dumb question, and does not require an answer because as a venture it is never going to be undertaken, - by any government, not even UKIP or the BNP.

That will mean I haven't a clue
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Affa
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 01:25 PM
Affa
Jan 22 2015, 01:06 PM
Quote:
 
How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people?


Is a dumb question, and does not require an answer because as a venture it is never going to be undertaken, - by any government, not even UKIP or the BNP.

That will mean I haven't a clue

Correct, you haven't!

It isn't even established that that there should be a reduction of 40 million, never mind how to do it.
Dumb just got dumber!

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papasmurf
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HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 01:24 PM
So all parents over the last 40 years are ignorant in this country,
Through no fault of their own.
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HIGHWAY
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Affa
Jan 22 2015, 01:34 PM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 01:25 PM
Affa
Jan 22 2015, 01:06 PM
Quote:
 
How do you propose that the government gets rid of 40 million people?


Is a dumb question, and does not require an answer because as a venture it is never going to be undertaken, - by any government, not even UKIP or the BNP.

That will mean I haven't a clue

Correct, you haven't!

It isn't even established that that there should be a reduction of 40 million, never mind how to do it.
Dumb just got dumber!

You will find on here some one who says it is over 40 million too many,and like you hasn't the answer to reduce it apart from saying I have said before
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HIGHWAY
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papasmurf
Jan 22 2015, 01:48 PM
HIGHWAY
Jan 22 2015, 01:24 PM
So all parents over the last 40 years are ignorant in this country,
Through no fault of their own.
It must be just you who's clever enough to know not to have any kids then,to save the UK
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Affa
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To Hwy
So someone says the country is overpopulated by some 40 million and you want to have a debate about how to remove that number without ever questioning whether the statement is correct or not - and not even knowing why.

Edited by Affa, Jan 22 2015, 02:14 PM.
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papasmurf
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Affa
Jan 22 2015, 02:13 PM
you want to have a debate about how to remove that number without ever questioning whether the statement is correct or not - and not even knowing why.

That debate has been done and dusted, I don't think I or anyone else here wished to waste 300 pages on it again.
You either accept it or you don't.
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HIGHWAY
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Affa
Jan 22 2015, 02:13 PM
To Hwy
So someone says the country is overpopulated by some 40 million and you want to have a debate about how to remove that number without ever questioning whether the statement is correct or not - and not even knowing why.

But he's put links up to say it's true,,so it must be.
Just like how he would get rid of the 40 million,if I remember rightly,it involves cattle trucks.
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