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RedTories Vote Against The Views Of Their Constituents
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Topic Started: Jan 21 2015, 11:45 AM (644 Views)
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 11:45 AM
Post #1
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Only 19 Labour MPs voted for the anti Trident motion brought up by the SNP/PC/Greens. 6 of these were Scottish MPs voting against the wishes of the Scottish people http://newsnet.scot/2015/01/trident-renewal-opposed-60-scots-says-snp-poll/ https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B73ftahCEAAL3Xx.jpg
MP Brian Donohoe made a fool of himself by stating that Russian subs are going up the Clyde at present. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Tl27CaGmMaY&x-yt-ts=1421782837&x-yt-cl=84359240
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Post #2
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Deleted User
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Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 12:26 PM
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Last time I looked I noticed that the Parliament for the UK that is responsible for the defence of the realm was based in London. Are we seeing here the first glimmerings of what a Labour + SNP Coalition in Westminster is likely to mean? The Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom at every opportunity for selfish gain? Pity the SNP don't spend a bit more time explaining how they would run an independent Scotland, rejected by Scots, with revenues from oil falling fast.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that. What has the referendum got to do with it? A poll showed that 60% of Scots (after Dont Knows were taken out) were against Trident. Labour will do well to think of the consequences of their actions - since getting into bed with the Tories, during the referendum, they have backed their Blue friends over austerity and now Trident. I just hope that in the upcoming months RedTory supporters remember how their representatives acted The referendum may have been lost but the SNP have been flying high in the polls. The latest one gives the party a 20% lead http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM
Post #5
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- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 12:26 PM
Last time I looked I noticed that the Parliament for the UK that is responsible for the defence of the realm was based in London. Are we seeing here the first glimmerings of what a Labour + SNP Coalition in Westminster is likely to mean? The Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom at every opportunity for selfish gain? Pity the SNP don't spend a bit more time explaining how they would run an independent Scotland, rejected by Scots, with revenues from oil falling fast. What makes you think there will be a coalition? I reckon the most Labour could expect is an appraisal of the situation on a case by case basis. Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
Post #6
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
What has the referendum got to do with it? A poll showed that 60% of Scots (after Dont Knows were taken out) were against Trident. Labour will do well to think of the consequences of their actions - since getting into bed with the Tories, during the referendum, they have backed their Blue friends over austerity and now Trident. I just hope that in the upcoming months RedTory supporters remember how their representatives acted The referendum may have been lost but the SNP have been flying high in the polls. The latest one gives the party a 20% lead http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE.
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Alberich
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Jan 21 2015, 01:18 PM
Post #7
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While staying out of the Scots Nats debacle, I am inclined to agree with them on trident. A massively expensive ego trip we could well do without. And we could also well do without Browns two white elephants currently under construction on the Clyde; one of which is to be mothballed on completion, and the other for which we have no aircraft. We should simply retrench...look after our own, and stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Gunboat diplomacy has had its day, but unfortunately our political masters are yet to realise that fact.
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AndyK
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Jan 21 2015, 01:22 PM
Post #8
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM
- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 12:26 PM
Last time I looked I noticed that the Parliament for the UK that is responsible for the defence of the realm was based in London. Are we seeing here the first glimmerings of what a Labour + SNP Coalition in Westminster is likely to mean? The Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom at every opportunity for selfish gain? Pity the SNP don't spend a bit more time explaining how they would run an independent Scotland, rejected by Scots, with revenues from oil falling fast.
What makes you think there will be a coalition? I reckon the most Labour could expect is an appraisal of the situation on a case by case basis. Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor Scottish opinion carries about as much weight as Cornwalls.
We are not having a referendum every time a nationalist bleats.
You lost, handle it.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 01:23 PM
Post #9
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Deleted User
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- Alberich
- Jan 21 2015, 01:18 PM
While staying out of the Scots Nats debacle, I am inclined to agree with them on trident. A massively expensive ego trip we could well do without. And we could also well do without Browns two white elephants currently under construction on the Clyde; one of which is to be mothballed on completion, and the other for which we have no aircraft. We should simply retrench...look after our own, and stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Gunboat diplomacy has had its day, but unfortunately our political masters are yet to realise that fact.
Indeed but the decision to scrap it lies within the UK as a whole not through a poll in one section of it.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 01:37 PM
Post #10
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:23 PM
- Alberich
- Jan 21 2015, 01:18 PM
While staying out of the Scots Nats debacle, I am inclined to agree with them on trident. A massively expensive ego trip we could well do without. And we could also well do without Browns two white elephants currently under construction on the Clyde; one of which is to be mothballed on completion, and the other for which we have no aircraft. We should simply retrench...look after our own, and stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Gunboat diplomacy has had its day, but unfortunately our political masters are yet to realise that fact.
Indeed but the decision to scrap it lies within the UK as a whole not through a poll in one section of it. In cost terms the Trident is not that expensive when judged on it's life as a weapon. Whether it is effective as a deterrent is another question. In this uncertain World I take some comfort knowing that we can, as long as an American President agrees, bomb aggressors back into the stone age if necessary. I certainly do not sleep well with the thought that other EU countries might come to our support. That said if they can find a cheaper means of delivering the same and locate this somewhere in England then that would get my vote.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 01:42 PM
Post #11
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Deleted User
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- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 01:37 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:23 PM
- Alberich
- Jan 21 2015, 01:18 PM
While staying out of the Scots Nats debacle, I am inclined to agree with them on trident. A massively expensive ego trip we could well do without. And we could also well do without Browns two white elephants currently under construction on the Clyde; one of which is to be mothballed on completion, and the other for which we have no aircraft. We should simply retrench...look after our own, and stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Gunboat diplomacy has had its day, but unfortunately our political masters are yet to realise that fact.
Indeed but the decision to scrap it lies within the UK as a whole not through a poll in one section of it.
In cost terms the Trident is not that expensive when judged on it's life as a weapon. Whether it is effective as a deterrent is another question. In this uncertain World I take some comfort knowing that we can, as long as an American President agrees, bomb aggressors back into the stone age if necessary. I certainly do not sleep well with the thought that other EU countries might come to our support. That said if they can find a cheaper means of delivering the same and locate this somewhere in England then that would get my vote.
Indeed again. What the OP suggests is that because Trident is located in Scotland then not only should you have no influence whether it stays there but a poll in Scotland should have overwhelming power whether it stays or not.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
Post #12
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
What has the referendum got to do with it? A poll showed that 60% of Scots (after Dont Knows were taken out) were against Trident. Labour will do well to think of the consequences of their actions - since getting into bed with the Tories, during the referendum, they have backed their Blue friends over austerity and now Trident. I just hope that in the upcoming months RedTory supporters remember how their representatives acted The referendum may have been lost but the SNP have been flying high in the polls. The latest one gives the party a 20% lead http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE. Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 01:52 PM
Post #13
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- AndyK
- Jan 21 2015, 01:22 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM
- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 12:26 PM
Last time I looked I noticed that the Parliament for the UK that is responsible for the defence of the realm was based in London. Are we seeing here the first glimmerings of what a Labour + SNP Coalition in Westminster is likely to mean? The Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom at every opportunity for selfish gain? Pity the SNP don't spend a bit more time explaining how they would run an independent Scotland, rejected by Scots, with revenues from oil falling fast.
What makes you think there will be a coalition? I reckon the most Labour could expect is an appraisal of the situation on a case by case basis. Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor
Scottish opinion carries about as much weight as Cornwalls. We are not having a referendum every time a nationalist bleats. You lost, handle it. You stated, in another thead, that Scotland is not a nation. You did not explain how you reached that ridiculous conclusion. Perhaps you will now.
We will have another Indyref when we decide to. It has nothing to do with you or your countrymen
We may have lost but that does not mean we give up. The campaign goes on!!!
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 01:55 PM
Post #14
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
What has the referendum got to do with it? A poll showed that 60% of Scots (after Dont Knows were taken out) were against Trident. Labour will do well to think of the consequences of their actions - since getting into bed with the Tories, during the referendum, they have backed their Blue friends over austerity and now Trident. I just hope that in the upcoming months RedTory supporters remember how their representatives acted The referendum may have been lost but the SNP have been flying high in the polls. The latest one gives the party a 20% lead http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE.
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
And there you was asking what the referendum had to do with it Yes the SNP is ONLY concerned with the needs of the Scottish people but the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK . Therefore the majority of Scottish people realise that addressing the needs of the UK as a whole is more beneficial to the Scottish people than simply addressing their own. Unfortunately the SNP has an agenda to chip away at this view by demonising the English and the UK government . The EU referendum has not been decided and the people of England,Scotland,Wales and NI will be able to join the debate at the appropriate stage.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 01:59 PM
Post #15
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- morayloon
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM
- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 12:26 PM
Last time I looked I noticed that the Parliament for the UK that is responsible for the defence of the realm was based in London. Are we seeing here the first glimmerings of what a Labour + SNP Coalition in Westminster is likely to mean? The Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom at every opportunity for selfish gain? Pity the SNP don't spend a bit more time explaining how they would run an independent Scotland, rejected by Scots, with revenues from oil falling fast.
What makes you think there will be a coalition? I reckon the most Labour could expect is an appraisal of the situation on a case by case basis. Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor
Scottish opinion carries about as much weight as Cornwalls. We are not having a referendum every time a nationalist bleats. You lost, handle it.
You stated, in another thead, that Scotland is not a nation. You did not explain how you reached that ridiculous conclusion. Perhaps you will now. We will have another Indyref when we decide to. It has nothing to do with you or your countrymen We may have lost but that does not mean we give up. The campaign goes on!!! Correction Scotland is not a sovereign nation, it is a geographical definition of boundaries. Those entitled to vote have rejected the establishment of a sovereign Scotland, by a sufficient margin for the rest in the UK to expect that the question is parked for a generation. Unless there is a back-room deal between Labour and SNP it is unlikely that this question will be raised in the next 10 years, maybe longer. That said such a deal for Labour would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. If the SNP would deign to support the Tories in Office then I am sure they would be less reluctant than Labour to give way.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 02:15 PM
Post #16
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:55 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE.
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
And there you was asking what the referendum had to do with it Yes the SNP is ONLY concerned with the needs of the Scottish people but the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK . Therefore the majority of Scottish people realise that addressing the needs of the UK as a whole is more beneficial to the Scottish people than simply addressing their own. Unfortunately the SNP has an agenda to chip away at this view by demonising the English and the UK government . The EU referendum has not been decided and the people of England,Scotland,Wales and NI will be able to join the debate at the appropriate stage. The outcome of the referendum has nothing to do with the stated views of the Scottish people (as shown in polls) now. Some surveys have shown a majority now would vote Yes. A majority believe there will be a referendum within 10 years. I was referring to the SNP, not the majority of Scots. The Red Tories & their Blue allies are for the new Trident whereas a majority of Scots are not. 'Demonising the English', where do you get that sort of crap from? The UK govt is a fifferent matter altogether! The fact is that an EU referendum is on the agenda now. I am merely saying that, depending on the result, it could create a constitutional crisis and launch the next stage for Scotland's Independence.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 02:24 PM
Post #17
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- AndyK
- Jan 21 2015, 01:22 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Scottish opinion carries about as much weight as Cornwalls. We are not having a referendum every time a nationalist bleats. You lost, handle it.
You stated, in another thead, that Scotland is not a nation. You did not explain how you reached that ridiculous conclusion. Perhaps you will now. We will have another Indyref when we decide to. It has nothing to do with you or your countrymen We may have lost but that does not mean we give up. The campaign goes on!!!
Correction Scotland is not a sovereign nation, it is a geographical definition of boundaries. Those entitled to vote have rejected the establishment of a sovereign Scotland, by a sufficient margin for the rest in the UK to expect that the question is parked for a generation. Unless there is a back-room deal between Labour and SNP it is unlikely that this question will be raised in the next 10 years, maybe longer. That said such a deal for Labour would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. If the SNP would deign to support the Tories in Office then I am sure they would be less reluctant than Labour to give way. Correction. I have never used the word sovereign in connection with the nation of Scotland. Our aim is to return sovereignty to Scotland. The rest of the UK can believe what they want but events, and the Scottish electorate, will decide whether there is another Indyref If the SNP is returned in 2016 and there is an in/out ref. in 2017 which results in Scotland saying stay while England wants to leave, there will be another Indyref. It won't matter who is in power at Westminster, it is the Scots who will decide their country's destiny. There is absolutely NO CHANCE of the SNP supporting the Tories.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 02:32 PM
Post #18
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 02:15 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:55 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.[/quote And there you was asking what the referendum had to do with it Yes the SNP is ONLY concerned with the needs of the Scottish people but the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK . Therefore the majority of Scottish people realise that addressing the needs of the UK as a whole is more beneficial to the Scottish people than simply addressing their own. Unfortunately the SNP has an agenda to chip away at this view by demonising the English and the UK government . The EU referendum has not been decided and the people of England,Scotland,Wales and NI will be able to join the debate at the appropriate stage.
The outcome of the referendum has nothing to do with the stated views of the Scottish people (as shown in polls) now. Some surveys have shown a majority now would vote Yes. A majority believe there will be a referendum within 10 years. I was referring to the SNP, not the majority of Scots. The Red Tories & their Blue allies are for the new Trident whereas a majority of Scots are not. 'Demonising the English', where do you get that sort of crap from? The UK govt is a fifferent matter altogether! The fact is that an EU referendum is on the agenda now. I am merely saying that, depending on the result, it could create a constitutional crisis and launch the next stage for Scotland's Independence.
The outcome of the referendum confirms that the majority of Scots accept that they do not have total control over issues that effect the UK as a whole. You seem to think that UK government policy should be dictated by Scottish polls if the policy concerned is based in Scotland. The majority of Scots disagree, get over it. I was referring to the SNPs disregard for the Scots majority who voted for a united Kingdom and not a sovereign Scotland. The SNP continuously tries to demonise the English and Westminster by claiming any other politician than them is not concerned about Scotland. This is the crap, it comes from the SNP and is spouted by you on this forum.As said the EU referendum is only being mooted. When and if it becomes a reality then ALL the elements that make up the UK will join the debate.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 02:37 PM
Post #19
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- morayloon
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- AndyK
- Jan 21 2015, 01:22 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
You stated, in another thead, that Scotland is not a nation. You did not explain how you reached that ridiculous conclusion. Perhaps you will now. We will have another Indyref when we decide to. It has nothing to do with you or your countrymen We may have lost but that does not mean we give up. The campaign goes on!!!
Correction Scotland is not a sovereign nation, it is a geographical definition of boundaries. Those entitled to vote have rejected the establishment of a sovereign Scotland, by a sufficient margin for the rest in the UK to expect that the question is parked for a generation. Unless there is a back-room deal between Labour and SNP it is unlikely that this question will be raised in the next 10 years, maybe longer. That said such a deal for Labour would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. If the SNP would deign to support the Tories in Office then I am sure they would be less reluctant than Labour to give way.
Correction. I have never used the word sovereign in connection with the nation of Scotland. Our aim is to return sovereignty to Scotland. The rest of the UK can believe what they want but events, and the Scottish electorate, will decide whether there is another Indyref If the SNP is returned in 2016 and there is an in/out ref. in 2017 which results in Scotland saying stay while England wants to leave, there will be another Indyref. It won't matter who is in power at Westminster, it is the Scots who will decide their country's destiny. There is absolutely NO CHANCE of the SNP supporting the Tories. Nice to say that, but the authority to allow such a referendum is not within the gift of Scottish MPs whether they are in Westminster or Edinburg. I suspect that if the SNP bully this back on to an agenda that the outcome will be predictable, the English will tell you in know uncertain terms where to sling your hook. A sovereign Scotland starting out without the goodwill of the English would for Scotland be a recipe for disaster. The best thing the SNP could do would be to show some maturity, lick it's wounds and recognise that the question was answered fully and can only be asked again in a generation or if there are unforeseen circumstances. As for the oil, it looks like there is now a lot less interest in investing in prolonging the life of these fields than hitherto, same goes for shale. Without such investment in the short run there is unlikely to be a long run and without the oil revenues then the SNP is sunk.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 02:58 PM
Post #20
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
What has the referendum got to do with it? A poll showed that 60% of Scots (after Dont Knows were taken out) were against Trident. Labour will do well to think of the consequences of their actions - since getting into bed with the Tories, during the referendum, they have backed their Blue friends over austerity and now Trident. I just hope that in the upcoming months RedTory supporters remember how their representatives acted The referendum may have been lost but the SNP have been flying high in the polls. The latest one gives the party a 20% lead http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE.
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
Making decision based only on polls is a sure way of making poor decisions. I do not know whether the majority of Scots want Trident to remain or go but the decision must be based on what is good for UK as a whole. If not why not just take a poll from Scots who make a living directly or indirectly from the Trident base? I will try to reiterate what you plainly cannot comprehend or accept. The majority of Scots voted for a united Kingdom. Now if you are telling me that these Scots were so dim that they did not realise that by doing so decisions will be made with the whole of the UK in mind rather than just Scottish interests then I will beg to differ. I obviously have a higher opinion of your fellow Scots than you do. I do not believe that most Scots will want out of the UK prior to a EU referendum ( if it transpires). This MAY cause a constitutional crisis IF the referendum voted for the UK leaving though. However once again I do not believe that your fellow Scots will panic ...unlike you and the rest of the SNP it seems.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 03:58 PM
Post #21
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- gansao
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- gansao
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2015/01/labour-still-mountain-climb-new-survation-poll/[/quote And there you was asking what the referendum had to do with it Yes the SNP is ONLY concerned with the needs of the Scottish people but the majority of Scottish people voted to stay in the UK . Therefore the majority of Scottish people realise that addressing the needs of the UK as a whole is more beneficial to the Scottish people than simply addressing their own. Unfortunately the SNP has an agenda to chip away at this view by demonising the English and the UK government . The EU referendum has not been decided and the people of England,Scotland,Wales and NI will be able to join the debate at the appropriate stage.
The outcome of the referendum has nothing to do with the stated views of the Scottish people (as shown in polls) now. Some surveys have shown a majority now would vote Yes. A majority believe there will be a referendum within 10 years. I was referring to the SNP, not the majority of Scots. The Red Tories & their Blue allies are for the new Trident whereas a majority of Scots are not. 'Demonising the English', where do you get that sort of crap from? The UK govt is a fifferent matter altogether! The fact is that an EU referendum is on the agenda now. I am merely saying that, depending on the result, it could create a constitutional crisis and launch the next stage for Scotland's Independence.
The outcome of the referendum confirms that the majority of Scots accept that they do not have total control over issues that effect the UK as a whole. You seem to think that UK government policy should be dictated by Scottish polls if the policy concerned is based in Scotland. The majority of Scots disagree, get over it. I was referring to the SNPs disregard for the Scots majority who voted for a united Kingdom and not a sovereign Scotland. The SNP continuously tries to demonise the English and Westminster by claiming any other politician than them is not concerned about Scotland. This is the crap, it comes from the SNP and is spouted by you on this forum.As said the EU referendum is only being mooted. When and if it becomes a reality then ALL the elements that make up the UK will join the debate.
I know what the result means for my country. However, that does not mean we stop campaigning for Independence. I think Scottish polls show the views of the Scottish electorate. If the Unionist parties ignore this, support for the SNP will remain at the level it is at now (the latest Survation poll puts their lead at 20%). Scots have a view on reserved matters and have shown they disagree with rUK on Trident and EU membership. Both are matters which could trigger another Indyref if things go. our way: e.g SNP returned in 2016 and then rUK votes to leave the EU but Scotland votes to stay in 2017. Produce evidence of this 'demonising of the English'. You really should stop reading the Daily Mail, or is it the Telegraph? As I said before, Westminster is a different kettle of fish. The fact that Labour sided with the Tories at the Referendum, voted with the Tories in the austerity debate and only 6 of them backed the anti Trident vote will not be forgotten by the many Labourites who voted Yes. Those who remain in the party must really wonder why they do so? A 2017 referendum may just be a dream of Farage's but it has a good chance of becoming reality and even you cannot deny that it is a topic of discussion right now.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 04:12 PM
Post #22
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- RJD
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- morayloon
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- RJD
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:52 PM
Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Correction Scotland is not a sovereign nation, it is a geographical definition of boundaries. Those entitled to vote have rejected the establishment of a sovereign Scotland, by a sufficient margin for the rest in the UK to expect that the question is parked for a generation. Unless there is a back-room deal between Labour and SNP it is unlikely that this question will be raised in the next 10 years, maybe longer. That said such a deal for Labour would be akin to shooting oneself in the foot. If the SNP would deign to support the Tories in Office then I am sure they would be less reluctant than Labour to give way.
Correction. I have never used the word sovereign in connection with the nation of Scotland. Our aim is to return sovereignty to Scotland. The rest of the UK can believe what they want but events, and the Scottish electorate, will decide whether there is another Indyref If the SNP is returned in 2016 and there is an in/out ref. in 2017 which results in Scotland saying stay while England wants to leave, there will be another Indyref. It won't matter who is in power at Westminster, it is the Scots who will decide their country's destiny. There is absolutely NO CHANCE of the SNP supporting the Tories.
Nice to say that, but the authority to allow such a referendum is not within the gift of Scottish MPs whether they are in Westminster or Edinburg. I suspect that if the SNP bully this back on to an agenda that the outcome will be predictable, the English will tell you in know uncertain terms where to sling your hook. A sovereign Scotland starting out without the goodwill of the English would for Scotland be a recipe for disaster. The best thing the SNP could do would be to show some maturity, lick it's wounds and recognise that the question was answered fully and can only be asked again in a generation . As for the oil, it looks like there is now a lot less interest in investing in prolonging the life of these fields than hitherto, same goes for shale. Without such investment in the short run there is unlikely to be a long run and without the oil revenues then the SNP is sunk. If there is a majority of SNP MPs and the party wins in 2016, expect another referendum. Do the English really want a disaffected part of tthe UK to remain? I think not. The democratic will of the people will prevail. It is our right to have a vote on the future of our country. It is the concern of no one else
You said "... or if there are unforeseen circumstances". That is exactly what I am saying. An EU referendum might produce such an unforseen circumstance. As for the SNP licking its wounds, the public response to the loss has been such that the party is in buoyant mood. The membership has almost quadrupled, standing at over 93,000. The Negativistas cannot get their heads round this reaction. After all, they say, "we won".
The price of oil will go back up. It has dropped dramatically before. Any cutbacks now will be reversed in the coming years. I would point out that this oil price drop is a problem for the UK government. Scotland will manage fine without the oil to back up its economy.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
Post #23
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 03:58 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 02:32 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 02:15 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:55 PM
The outcome of the referendum confirms that the majority of Scots accept that they do not have total control over issues that effect the UK as a whole. You seem to think that UK government policy should be dictated by Scottish polls if the policy concerned is based in Scotland. The majority of Scots disagree, get over it. I was referring to the SNPs disregard for the Scots majority who voted for a united Kingdom and not a sovereign Scotland. The SNP continuously tries to demonise the English and Westminster by claiming any other politician than them is not concerned about Scotland. This is the crap, it comes from the SNP and is spouted by you on this forum.As said the EU referendum is only being mooted. When and if it becomes a reality then ALL the elements that make up the UK will join the debate.
I know what the result means for my country. However, that does not mean we stop campaigning for Independence. I think Scottish polls show the views of the Scottish electorate. If the Unionist parties ignore this, support for the SNP will remain at the level it is at now (the latest Survation poll puts their lead at 20%). Scots have a view on reserved matters and have shown they disagree with rUK on Trident and EU membership. Both are matters which could trigger another Indyref if things go. our way: e.g SNP returned in 2016 and then rUK votes to leave the EU but Scotland votes to stay in 2017. Produce evidence of this 'demonising of the English'. You really should stop reading the Daily Mail, or is it the Telegraph? As I said before, Westminster is a different kettle of fish. The fact that Labour sided with the Tories at the Referendum, voted with the Tories in the austerity debate and only 6 of them backed the anti Trident vote will not be forgotten by the many Labourites who voted Yes. Those who remain in the party must really wonder why they do so? A 2017 referendum may just be a dream of Farage's but it has a good chance of becoming reality and even you cannot deny that it is a topic of discussion right now.
You can campaign as much as you want but at least try to campaign honestly . You claim that the UK government should be led by Scottish polls in this case. This is not only being disingenuous but insults the intelligence of the Scots who voted to stay in the UK. I do not read either the bluster of the mail or SNP politicians. On the other hand I do accuse the SNP and the likes of you of showing disregard and disrespect to the majority of Scots who voted for a united kingdom so you may have a point. Maybe labour sided with the Tories because both labour and Tories( like the majority of Scots) knew that Scotland was better off in the union than outside of it. As said , the trident issue is not a Scottish issue, it is a UK issue. When and if a EU referendum becomes a reality then it will be discussed throughout the UK. When and if the UK votes to leave the EU then it may turn into a constitutional issue. This may spark another move to a Scottish referendum. You and others are just using scare tactics...... The 'English' are going to vote the UK out of the EU over Scottish heads...that kind of English ' demonising'.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
Post #24
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- morayloon
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- morayloon
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:55 PM
The outcome of the referendum confirms that the majority of Scots accept that they do not have total control over issues that effect the UK as a whole. You seem to think that UK government policy should be dictated by Scottish polls if the policy concerned is based in Scotland. The majority of Scots disagree, get over it. I was referring to the SNPs disregard for the Scots majority who voted for a united Kingdom and not a sovereign Scotland. The SNP continuously tries to demonise the English and Westminster by claiming any other politician than them is not concerned about Scotland. This is the crap, it comes from the SNP and is spouted by you on this forum.As said the EU referendum is only being mooted. When and if it becomes a reality then ALL the elements that make up the UK will join the debate.
I know what the result means for my country. However, that does not mean we stop campaigning for Independence. I think Scottish polls show the views of the Scottish electorate. If the Unionist parties ignore this, support for the SNP will remain at the level it is at now (the latest Survation poll puts their lead at 20%). Scots have a view on reserved matters and have shown they disagree with rUK on Trident and EU membership. Both are matters which could trigger another Indyref if things go. our way: e.g SNP returned in 2016 and then rUK votes to leave the EU but Scotland votes to stay in 2017. Produce evidence of this 'demonising of the English'. You really should stop reading the Daily Mail, or is it the Telegraph? As I said before, Westminster is a different kettle of fish. The fact that Labour sided with the Tories at the Referendum, voted with the Tories in the austerity debate and only 6 of them backed the anti Trident vote will not be forgotten by the many Labourites who voted Yes. Those who remain in the party must really wonder why they do so? A 2017 referendum may just be a dream of Farage's but it has a good chance of becoming reality and even you cannot deny that it is a topic of discussion right now.
What do you mean "your country". I though you accepted that Scotland was not a sovereign country only a geographical description of a mass of land? As for Scotland and the EU and the Euro, best leave this until it becomes a question of interest as I suspect it may be on nobodies agenda. Only a fool would adopt the Euro at the wrong exchange rate and when his economy is not convergent, but the World is full of foolish Politicians. Let's see how long the Euro survives in it's current form and what shape it is in when the question is next asked. More of interest is the rapid decline in oil revenues which may have a lasting impact. Overall such price reductions will be good for the English economy, but unhelpful to Scotland.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 04:33 PM
Post #25
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- gansao
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:08 PM
It has everything to do with it. The UK is not just Scotland so the UK government has to serve the UK as whole therefore ( you may want to avert your eyes) A POLL TAKEN IN SCOTLAND WOULD NOT BE A COMPELLING REASON TO CHANGE ISSUES EFFECTING THE UK. Also the SNP may be ' flying high in the polls' but that does not mean they can or should be remote from the needs and issues regarding the UK AS A WHOLE.
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
Making decision based only on polls is a sure way of making poor decisions. I do not know whether the majority of Scots want Trident to remain or go but the decision must be based on what is good for UK as a whole. If not why not just take a poll from Scots who make a living directly or indirectly from the Trident base? I will try to reiterate what you plainly cannot comprehend or accept. The majority of Scots voted for a united Kingdom. Now if you are telling me that these Scots were so dim that they did not realise that by doing so decisions will be made with the whole of the UK in mind rather than just Scottish interests then I will beg to differ. I obviously have a higher opinion of your fellow Scots than you do. I do not believe that most Scots will want out of the UK prior to a EU referendum ( if it transpires). This MAY cause a constitutional crisis IF the referendum voted for the UK leaving though. However once again I do not believe that your fellow Scots will panic ...unlike you and the rest of the SNP it seems. Opinion Polls are the only way, other than a full blown election or referendum, to gauge public opinion. Anyway, who said anything about governing by the reaction of the polls. Having said that, do you really think that the Government or political parties do not take note of views expressed by the polls? At present, I know that it is a Westminster matter and that the UK govt. can afford to ignore the views of the majority of Scots. After all we only make up about 8% of the population. Ignoring the Scots will one day be the complete undoing of the Union. The result of an EU referendum might just be the straw that ... What you fail to realise is that the Yes campaigners who were introduced to political campaigning during the Referendum have galvanised and strengthened the fight for Independence. Not only the SNP but the Scottish Greens and the SSP have seen dramatic increases in membership. The goal of a sovereign Scotland will not go away. You really shouldn't put words in my mouth. The referendum was won through the massive No vote in the +60 age group. Yes won in one age group whilst the result in others was close. The reason of course is that older people are less likely to be on social media and therefore less likely to be informed of the truth behind the lies of the No's, dutifully carried by the mass media.
I never said that there will be an upsurge in support for another indyref BEFORE any proposed EU vote. I said that the result of any such referendum could propel us into holding another Indyref. What makes you think we are panicking? We are in fine fettle and are looking forward to the next test of the strength of feeling for our country joining the family of sovereign states.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 04:48 PM
Post #26
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 04:33 PM
- gansao
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
Making decision based only on polls is a sure way of making poor decisions. I do not know whether the majority of Scots want Trident to remain or go but the decision must be based on what is good for UK as a whole. If not why not just take a poll from Scots who make a living directly or indirectly from the Trident base? I will try to reiterate what you plainly cannot comprehend or accept. The majority of Scots voted for a united Kingdom. Now if you are telling me that these Scots were so dim that they did not realise that by doing so decisions will be made with the whole of the UK in mind rather than just Scottish interests then I will beg to differ. I obviously have a higher opinion of your fellow Scots than you do. I do not believe that most Scots will want out of the UK prior to a EU referendum ( if it transpires). This MAY cause a constitutional crisis IF the referendum voted for the UK leaving though. However once again I do not believe that your fellow Scots will panic ...unlike you and the rest of the SNP it seems.
Opinion Polls are the only way, other than a full blown election or referendum, to gauge public opinion. Anyway, who said anything about governing by the reaction of the polls. Having said that, do you really think that the Government or political parties do not take note of views expressed by the polls? At present, I know that it is a Westminster matter and that the UK govt. can afford to ignore the views of the majority of Scots. After all we only make up about 8% of the population. Ignoring the Scots will one day be the complete undoing of the Union. The result of an EU referendum might just be the straw that ... What you fail to realise is that the Yes campaigners who were introduced to political campaigning during the Referendum have galvanised and strengthened the fight for Independence. Not only the SNP but the Scottish Greens and the SSP have seen dramatic increases in membership. The goal of a sovereign Scotland will not go away. You really shouldn't put words in my mouth. The referendum was won through the massive No vote in the +60 age group. Yes won in one age group whilst the result in others was close. The reason of course is that older people are less likely to be on social media and therefore less likely to be informed of the truth behind the lies of the No's, dutifully carried by the mass media. I never said that there will be an upsurge in support for another indyref BEFORE any proposed EU vote. I said that the result of any such referendum could propel us into holding another Indyref. What makes you think we are panicking? We are in fine fettle and are looking forward to the next test of the strength of feeling for our country joining the family of sovereign states. This is unfair, the Scots have not been ignored quite the opposite. It seems from many an Englishman's standpoint that the Politicians in Westminster have bent over backwards to accommodate the Scots and have gone too far. I really hope we are not in for another decade of Scottish whinging and whining largely through the mouths of the SNP who, I believe, will ultimately do more harm than good. I read just now that the SNP will in future vote on English matters if they judge doing so is to their political advantage. Clearly the SNP could not get the Scots to vote for independence so they will do all in their power to frustrate the English and get them to demand the Scots should leave or tow the line. They have no idea what the backlash could mean for a Scotland that cannot free itself of it's tie to the £Sterling.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 04:51 PM
Post #27
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 04:33 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 02:58 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 01:15 PM
Ignoring the views of the Scottish people is a sure way to increase support for another Indyref. If the rest of the UK wants to keep Trident, house it somewhere in your country! The SNP is concerned with the needs of the Scottish people. On Trident the view of the Party coincides with that of the majority of the population. Another area which could cause ructions is an in/out Euro referendum. Polls show that Scots want to remain while a majority in England want out. If that was the outcome of that referendum, expect another Independence plebiscite.
Making decision based only on polls is a sure way of making poor decisions. I do not know whether the majority of Scots want Trident to remain or go but the decision must be based on what is good for UK as a whole. If not why not just take a poll from Scots who make a living directly or indirectly from the Trident base? I will try to reiterate what you plainly cannot comprehend or accept. The majority of Scots voted for a united Kingdom. Now if you are telling me that these Scots were so dim that they did not realise that by doing so decisions will be made with the whole of the UK in mind rather than just Scottish interests then I will beg to differ. I obviously have a higher opinion of your fellow Scots than you do. I do not believe that most Scots will want out of the UK prior to a EU referendum ( if it transpires). This MAY cause a constitutional crisis IF the referendum voted for the UK leaving though. However once again I do not believe that your fellow Scots will panic ...unlike you and the rest of the SNP it seems.
Opinion Polls are the only way, other than a full blown election or referendum, to gauge public opinion. Anyway, who said anything about governing by the reaction of the polls. Having said that, do you really think that the Government or political parties do not take note of views expressed by the polls? At present, I know that it is a Westminster matter and that the UK govt. can afford to ignore the views of the majority of Scots. After all we only make up about 8% of the population. Ignoring the Scots will one day be the complete undoing of the Union. The result of an EU referendum might just be the straw that ... What you fail to realise is that the Yes campaigners who were introduced to political campaigning during the Referendum have galvanised and strengthened the fight for Independence. Not only the SNP but the Scottish Greens and the SSP have seen dramatic increases in membership. The goal of a sovereign Scotland will not go away. You really shouldn't put words in my mouth. The referendum was won through the massive No vote in the +60 age group. Yes won in one age group whilst the result in others was close. The reason of course is that older people are less likely to be on social media and therefore less likely to be informed of the truth behind the lies of the No's, dutifully carried by the mass media. I never said that there will be an upsurge in support for another indyref BEFORE any proposed EU vote. I said that the result of any such referendum could propel us into holding another Indyref. What makes you think we are panicking? We are in fine fettle and are looking forward to the next test of the strength of feeling for our country joining the family of sovereign states.
What you are claiming is that a poll conducted in Scotland should dominate a political decision that affects the whole of the UK. I have tried to reiterate this point several times. So opinion pols are useful and of course politicians use them but they are NOT the only way. Democracy does not mean having a referendum for every major decision by the government neither does it mean only considering the views of a minority. I have tried to reiterate this too. What YOU fail to realise is that the rest of the UK will not be blackmailed into making decisions based on Scottish concerns only. I didnt put words in your mouth. The NO vote won the referendum. You really shouldnt second guess the people who voted no or try to make the reasons why they voted no to be some kind of ignorance or weakness. What you have been doing is making an EU referendum that is by no means certain to take place an issue. Not only that but the result is by no mean certain either. So you are simply making an issue out of a non issue. You are panicking. You are looking for non issues and playing on national fears. You are implying that the no voters were somehow ignorant or misguided. You are implying that the Scots are being ignored or used by 'Westminster politicians'. You are claiming that Scottish polls should overcome issues regarding UK common good.
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Tytoalba
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Jan 21 2015, 04:57 PM
Post #28
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that. Wisely so as events have proved. The Scottish Nationalists would be in dire trouble, and their financial plans shot to ribbons by the reduction in oil revenue with which to run the Scottish economy. If the referendum had been held in the last three weeks or so the numbers voting YES to independence would have dropped considerably, IMO Better the devil you know.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 05:14 PM
Post #29
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- Tytoalba
- Jan 21 2015, 04:57 PM
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- Jan 21 2015, 12:14 PM
Maybe they thought that Trident is good for the UK as a whole. The majority of Scottish people rejected the SNP's attempt to split from the UK . You should remember that.
Wisely so as events have proved. The Scottish Nationalists would be in dire trouble, and their financial plans shot to ribbons by the reduction in oil revenue with which to run the Scottish economy. If the referendum had been held in the last three weeks or so the numbers voting YES to independence would have dropped considerably, IMO Better the devil you know. If the oil prices stay low for a few years, which they might, then there will be little or no investment in extending the life of North Sea reserves and there will be a point in time when this becomes increasingly none viable. Scotland should not base it's future on oil alone and needs to grow it's moribund private sector. As long as the SNP keep "independence" on the table this will provide barriers to investment. The main investors are English companies and they will want a quiet life.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 05:43 PM
Post #30
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Deleted User
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Morayloon has stated...Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor.
The question is..will they recover enough?
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 06:33 PM
Post #31
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 02:32 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 02:15 PM
I know what the result means for my country. However, that does not mean we stop campaigning for Independence. I think Scottish polls show the views of the Scottish electorate. If the Unionist parties ignore this, support for the SNP will remain at the level it is at now (the latest Survation poll puts their lead at 20%). Scots have a view on reserved matters and have shown they disagree with rUK on Trident and EU membership. Both are matters which could trigger another Indyref if things go. our way: e.g SNP returned in 2016 and then rUK votes to leave the EU but Scotland votes to stay in 2017. Produce evidence of this 'demonising of the English'. You really should stop reading the Daily Mail, or is it the Telegraph? As I said before, Westminster is a different kettle of fish. The fact that Labour sided with the Tories at the Referendum, voted with the Tories in the austerity debate and only 6 of them backed the anti Trident vote will not be forgotten by the many Labourites who voted Yes. Those who remain in the party must really wonder why they do so? A 2017 referendum may just be a dream of Farage's but it has a good chance of becoming reality and even you cannot deny that it is a topic of discussion right now.
You can campaign as much as you want but at least try to campaign honestly . You claim that the UK government should be led by Scottish polls in this case. This is not only being disingenuous but insults the intelligence of the Scots who voted to stay in the UK. I do not read either the bluster of the mail or SNP politicians. On the other hand I do accuse the SNP and the likes of you of showing disregard and disrespect to the majority of Scots who voted for a united kingdom so you may have a point. Maybe labour sided with the Tories because both labour and Tories( like the majority of Scots) knew that Scotland was better off in the union than outside of it. As said , the trident issue is not a Scottish issue, it is a UK issue. When and if a EU referendum becomes a reality then it will be discussed throughout the UK. When and if the UK votes to leave the EU then it may turn into a constitutional issue. This may spark another move to a Scottish referendum. You and others are just using scare tactics...... The 'English' are going to vote the UK out of the EU over Scottish heads...that kind of English ' demonising'.
You should really stop putting words in my mouth. What I am saying and what you like to think I'm saying are obviously poles apart. The UK government is in charge of defence. But, ignoring the views of the Scottish people will only stoke up discontent. Many people were conned into voting No as a result of the intervention of Gordon Brown and the publishing of the vow. How can you possibly have a view on Scottish politics if you ignore the view of the largest party. Head in sand springs to mind. You go on about the majority of Scots. In this poll, the majority of Scots want rid of Trident. If you are so keen to retain it, petition the UK government to have it homed in England. As for Labour, thousands of their supporters voted Yes. Many of them have since joined one of the Independence parties. Labour's support has plummeted since the referendum; the latest survey putting them 20% behind the Nationalists. It is going to be an uphill task to win back many of the disillusioned. You keep on about how Trident is a UK issue but, while this the case, Scots are entitled to their view and that, majority, view is to get rid of Trident. That is not demonising the English. It is putting forward a legitimate scenario. There are 55million people in England and only 5million in Scotland. It is rather obvious that an out vote in England can overturn a Scottish vote to stay in. If that does happen there will be a constitutional crisis. Reality not scaremongering.
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RJD
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Jan 21 2015, 06:42 PM
Post #32
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 05:43 PM
Morayloon has stated...Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor.
The question is..will they recover enough? Always makes me smile when I hear forecasters on certainties. If they are so certain then I point them in the direction of FOREX in London where they can make themselves a fortune. I have no idea when or if the prices will rebound, but would not put a Penny on them doing so anytime soon, well not this side of 2016 and possibly 2020.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 06:52 PM
Post #33
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- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 04:48 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 04:33 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 02:58 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 01:47 PM
Making decision based only on polls is a sure way of making poor decisions. I do not know whether the majority of Scots want Trident to remain or go but the decision must be based on what is good for UK as a whole. If not why not just take a poll from Scots who make a living directly or indirectly from the Trident base? I will try to reiterate what you plainly cannot comprehend or accept. The majority of Scots voted for a united Kingdom. Now if you are telling me that these Scots were so dim that they did not realise that by doing so decisions will be made with the whole of the UK in mind rather than just Scottish interests then I will beg to differ. I obviously have a higher opinion of your fellow Scots than you do. I do not believe that most Scots will want out of the UK prior to a EU referendum ( if it transpires). This MAY cause a constitutional crisis IF the referendum voted for the UK leaving though. However once again I do not believe that your fellow Scots will panic ...unlike you and the rest of the SNP it seems.
Opinion Polls are the only way, other than a full blown election or referendum, to gauge public opinion. Anyway, who said anything about governing by the reaction of the polls. Having said that, do you really think that the Government or political parties do not take note of views expressed by the polls? At present, I know that it is a Westminster matter and that the UK govt. can afford to ignore the views of the majority of Scots. After all we only make up about 8% of the population. Ignoring the Scots will one day be the complete undoing of the Union. The result of an EU referendum might just be the straw that ... What you fail to realise is that the Yes campaigners who were introduced to political campaigning during the Referendum have galvanised and strengthened the fight for Independence. Not only the SNP but the Scottish Greens and the SSP have seen dramatic increases in membership. The goal of a sovereign Scotland will not go away. You really shouldn't put words in my mouth. The referendum was won through the massive No vote in the +60 age group. Yes won in one age group whilst the result in others was close. The reason of course is that older people are less likely to be on social media and therefore less likely to be informed of the truth behind the lies of the No's, dutifully carried by the mass media. I never said that there will be an upsurge in support for another indyref BEFORE any proposed EU vote. I said that the result of any such referendum could propel us into holding another Indyref. What makes you think we are panicking? We are in fine fettle and are looking forward to the next test of the strength of feeling for our country joining the family of sovereign states.
This is unfair, the Scots have not been ignored quite the opposite. It seems from many an Englishman's standpoint that the Politicians in Westminster have bent over backwards to accommodate the Scots and have gone too far. I really hope we are not in for another decade of Scottish whinging and whining largely through the mouths of the SNP who, I believe, will ultimately do more harm than good. I read just now that the SNP will in future vote on English matters if they judge doing so is to their political advantage. Clearly the SNP could not get the Scots to vote for independence so they will do all in their power to frustrate the English and get them to demand the Scots should leave or tow the line. They have no idea what the backlash could mean for a Scotland that cannot free itself of it's tie to the £Sterling. Scottish views have been ignored since the Union was formed. It is rather annoying that Scots are ignored, again, on the matter of Trident If you are referring to the referendum then all I can say is that it is our right to seek the dissolution of the Union and the re-creation of a sovereign Scottish state. 'whinging and whining': you really must explain yourself because I am not aware of Scots doing either. Certainly not the SNP
The Health Service in Scotland is dependent on money from Holyrood which in turn gets its funds from Westminster, through the Block Grant. If the UK govt cuts spending on Health that will force a reduction in the Grant resulting in less leeway for the Scottish Government to manouevre. I'm afraid the definition of an English only matter is much more difficul;t to define than was thought. Political advantage has nothing to do with it. The only thing that counts is whether the issue involved affects Scotland in any way.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 07:01 PM
Post #34
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- RJD
- Jan 21 2015, 06:42 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 05:43 PM
Morayloon has stated...Scotland would not have been Independent until 2016, by which time revenue from oil will have recovered. At the moment it is a headache for the Chancellor.
The question is..will they recover enough?
Always makes me smile when I hear forecasters on certainties. If they are so certain then I point them in the direction of FOREX in London where they can make themselves a fortune. I have no idea when or if the prices will rebound, but would not put a Penny on them doing so anytime soon, well not this side of 2016 and possibly 2020. Isn't it funny how people can make predictions - 2016, 2020, whatever? The thing about predictions is they are just that, they are not based on any fact. Was the dramatic decrease in price 'predicted'?
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 07:19 PM
Post #35
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Deleted User
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 06:33 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 03:58 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 02:32 PM
You can campaign as much as you want but at least try to campaign honestly . You claim that the UK government should be led by Scottish polls in this case. This is not only being disingenuous but insults the intelligence of the Scots who voted to stay in the UK. I do not read either the bluster of the mail or SNP politicians. On the other hand I do accuse the SNP and the likes of you of showing disregard and disrespect to the majority of Scots who voted for a united kingdom so you may have a point. Maybe labour sided with the Tories because both labour and Tories( like the majority of Scots) knew that Scotland was better off in the union than outside of it. As said , the trident issue is not a Scottish issue, it is a UK issue. When and if a EU referendum becomes a reality then it will be discussed throughout the UK. When and if the UK votes to leave the EU then it may turn into a constitutional issue. This may spark another move to a Scottish referendum. You and others are just using scare tactics...... The 'English' are going to vote the UK out of the EU over Scottish heads...that kind of English ' demonising'.
You should really stop putting words in my mouth. What I am saying and what you like to think I'm saying are obviously poles apart. The UK government is in charge of defence. But, ignoring the views of the Scottish people will only stoke up discontent. Many people were conned into voting No as a result of the intervention of Gordon Brown and the publishing of the vow. How can you possibly have a view on Scottish politics if you ignore the view of the largest party. Head in sand springs to mind. You go on about the majority of Scots. In this poll, the majority of Scots want rid of Trident. If you are so keen to retain it, petition the UK government to have it homed in England. As for Labour, thousands of their supporters voted Yes. Many of them have since joined one of the Independence parties. Labour's support has plummeted since the referendum; the latest survey putting them 20% behind the Nationalists. It is going to be an uphill task to win back many of the disillusioned. You keep on about how Trident is a UK issue but, while this the case, Scots are entitled to their view and that, majority, view is to get rid of Trident. That is not demonising the English. It is putting forward a legitimate scenario. There are 55million people in England and only 5million in Scotland. It is rather obvious that an out vote in England can overturn a Scottish vote to stay in. If that does happen there will be a constitutional crisis. Reality not scaremongering.
You really should not pretend that I am putting words that you say in your mouth. The government is not ignoring the views of Scots when they address issues that concern the whole of the UK. The Scots have decided to stay in the union . You seem to be intent on claiming that they made this decision from any other view than ignorance or deception. The head in the sand is the Scot that insists the UK should put Scottish issues above the UK as a whole and insults the majority view of Scots ie to be part of the UK. The majority of Scots may not want trident but the decision lies with the UK as a whole not with Scots only. Until you learn that being in a union means accepting other views you will not be able to see the fatal flaws in your argument. Trident is not a new issue. It was on the agenda when the referendum was held. The majority of Scots were aware of this and still voted for the union. They know what you dont. That you cant cherry pick issues in a multi issue vote. If it is not demonising the English then it is claiming that the problems Scotland has lies with the English. Your own point highlights that it is not only Westminster that certain Scots blame for perceived English neglect or unfairness.
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Affa
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Jan 21 2015, 07:39 PM
Post #36
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You do realise that if everything were left to the Private Sector investment would always go to where the returns on that investment are highest? What this means is in reality regions must strive to become the place where costs are the lowest - a race to the bottom!
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 08:24 PM
Post #37
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 07:19 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 06:33 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 03:58 PM
You should really stop putting words in my mouth. What I am saying and what you like to think I'm saying are obviously poles apart. The UK government is in charge of defence. But, ignoring the views of the Scottish people will only stoke up discontent. Many people were conned into voting No as a result of the intervention of Gordon Brown and the publishing of the vow. How can you possibly have a view on Scottish politics if you ignore the view of the largest party. Head in sand springs to mind. You go on about the majority of Scots. In this poll, the majority of Scots want rid of Trident. If you are so keen to retain it, petition the UK government to have it homed in England. As for Labour, thousands of their supporters voted Yes. Many of them have since joined one of the Independence parties. Labour's support has plummeted since the referendum; the latest survey putting them 20% behind the Nationalists. It is going to be an uphill task to win back many of the disillusioned. You keep on about how Trident is a UK issue but, while this the case, Scots are entitled to their view and that, majority, view is to get rid of Trident. That is not demonising the English. It is putting forward a legitimate scenario. There are 55million people in England and only 5million in Scotland. It is rather obvious that an out vote in England can overturn a Scottish vote to stay in. If that does happen there will be a constitutional crisis. Reality not scaremongering.
You really should not pretend that I am putting words that you say in your mouth. The government is not ignoring the views of Scots when they address issues that concern the whole of the UK. The Scots have decided to stay in the union . You seem to be intent on claiming that they made this decision from any other view than ignorance or deception. The head in the sand is the Scot that insists the UK should put Scottish issues above the UK as a whole and insults the majority view of Scots ie to be part of the UK. The majority of Scots may not want trident but the decision lies with the UK as a whole not with Scots only. Until you learn that being in a union means accepting other views you will not be able to see the fatal flaws in your argument. Trident is not a new issue. It was on the agenda when the referendum was held. The majority of Scots were aware of this and still voted for the union. They know what you dont. That you cant cherry pick issues in a multi issue vote. If it is not demonising the English then it is claiming that the problems Scotland has lies with the English. Your own point highlights that it is not only Westminster that certain Scots blame for perceived English neglect or unfairness.
Oh, I am not pretending! The thing is that the political scene has changed dramatically since September 19th. Despite losing, we are in the ascendancy. The government is ignoring the view of the majority of Scots on Trident. If you want the weapons, take them to a base in England. I am intent on providing you with facts. If you are intent on continuing with your head in the sand, completely ignoring what the major party in Scotland is saying, that is up to you. The vast majority of +60s voted No. That as far as I am aware has not been disputed, and the reason is put down as lack of access to social media and websites like Wings Over Scotland, Newsnet Scotland, Bella Caledonia etc. Pray tell, what are these 'fatal flaws'? I think what won the day was the scaremongering on pensions, which arguments were taken apart by online sources, allied to the vow and Gordon Brown's promise of 'Home Rule' or Federalism. We can focus on issues which we know affect the Scottish people and work to alleviate these e.g. by getting rid of Trident or ensuring that Scotland is not hauled out of Europe because of votes elsewhere. As for your last paragraph you are again putting words in my mouth. I have never said anything against the English. I have against Westminster though. You should really learn that the two terms are not synonymous.
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Deleted User
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Jan 21 2015, 08:40 PM
Post #38
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 08:24 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 07:19 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 06:33 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 04:14 PM
You really should not pretend that I am putting words that you say in your mouth. The government is not ignoring the views of Scots when they address issues that concern the whole of the UK. The Scots have decided to stay in the union . You seem to be intent on claiming that they made this decision from any other view than ignorance or deception. The head in the sand is the Scot that insists the UK should put Scottish issues above the UK as a whole and insults the majority view of Scots ie to be part of the UK. The majority of Scots may not want trident but the decision lies with the UK as a whole not with Scots only. Until you learn that being in a union means accepting other views you will not be able to see the fatal flaws in your argument. Trident is not a new issue. It was on the agenda when the referendum was held. The majority of Scots were aware of this and still voted for the union. They know what you dont. That you cant cherry pick issues in a multi issue vote. If it is not demonising the English then it is claiming that the problems Scotland has lies with the English. Your own point highlights that it is not only Westminster that certain Scots blame for perceived English neglect or unfairness.
Oh, I am not pretending! The thing is that the political scene has changed dramatically since September 19th. Despite losing, we are in the ascendancy. The government is ignoring the view of the majority of Scots on Trident. If you want the weapons, take them to a base in England. I am intent on providing you with facts. If you are intent on continuing with your head in the sand, completely ignoring what the major party in Scotland is saying, that is up to you. The vast majority of +60s voted No. That as far as I am aware has not been disputed, and the reason is put down as lack of access to social media and websites like Wings Over Scotland, Newsnet Scotland, Bella Caledonia etc. Pray tell, what are these 'fatal flaws'? I think what won the day was the scaremongering on pensions, which arguments were taken apart by online sources, allied to the vow and Gordon Brown's promise of 'Home Rule' or Federalism. We can focus on issues which we know affect the Scottish people and work to alleviate these e.g. by getting rid of Trident or ensuring that Scotland is not hauled out of Europe because of votes elsewhere. As for your last paragraph you are again putting words in my mouth. I have never said anything against the English. I have against Westminster though. You should really learn that the two terms are not synonymous.
The UK government is addressing the needs of the UK . Scotland is part of the UK. The trident issue was on the agenda during the referendum. The majority of Scots voted to stay in the union. These are facts. Your head is in the sand not mine. The vast majority of over sixties may have voted no but that doersnt mean that the majority of no voters are over 60 nor does it mean that they voted through ignorance. Your fatal flaws is to refuse to accept what a union actually is and to claim that the no voters do not either. I think what won the day was that the majority of voters saw through the delusion of the SNP and realised it would be better to stay in the union. 'We' are the UK. 'You' are the UK. Scotland is not independent and cannot ignore the needs of the whole UK.We can focus on the issues that are to the mutual benefit of the UK.As for the last paragraph, I did no such thing. You alluded to the 'tyranny of the majority'. The English majority in this case.
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morayloon
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Jan 21 2015, 10:01 PM
Post #39
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- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 08:40 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 08:24 PM
- gansao
- Jan 21 2015, 07:19 PM
- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 06:33 PM
Oh, I am not pretending! The thing is that the political scene has changed dramatically since September 19th. Despite losing, we are in the ascendancy. The government is ignoring the view of the majority of Scots on Trident. If you want the weapons, take them to a base in England. I am intent on providing you with facts. If you are intent on continuing with your head in the sand, completely ignoring what the major party in Scotland is saying, that is up to you. The vast majority of +60s voted No. That as far as I am aware has not been disputed, and the reason is put down as lack of access to social media and websites like Wings Over Scotland, Newsnet Scotland, Bella Caledonia etc. Pray tell, what are these 'fatal flaws'? I think what won the day was the scaremongering on pensions, which arguments were taken apart by online sources, allied to the vow and Gordon Brown's promise of 'Home Rule' or Federalism. We can focus on issues which we know affect the Scottish people and work to alleviate these e.g. by getting rid of Trident or ensuring that Scotland is not hauled out of Europe because of votes elsewhere. As for your last paragraph you are again putting words in my mouth. I have never said anything against the English. I have against Westminster though. You should really learn that the two terms are not synonymous.
The UK government is addressing the needs of the UK . Scotland is part of the UK. The trident issue was on the agenda during the referendum. The majority of Scots voted to stay in the union. These are facts. Your head is in the sand not mine. The vast majority of over sixties may have voted no but that doersnt mean that the majority of no voters are over 60 nor does it mean that they voted through ignorance. Your fatal flaws is to refuse to accept what a union actually is and to claim that the no voters do not either. I think what won the day was that the majority of voters saw through the delusion of the SNP and realised it would be better to stay in the union. 'We' are the UK. 'You' are the UK. Scotland is not independent and cannot ignore the needs of the whole UK.We can focus on the issues that are to the mutual benefit of the UK.As for the last paragraph, I did no such thing. You alluded to the 'tyranny of the majority'. The English majority in this case.
Yes, exactly they are and are ignoring the majority view in Scotland in the process. People had many reasons for voting the way did. Trident would have been high on people's minds but I doubt that it was anywhere near the top of many people's lists. To say that because we voted No, we have no right to have a say on anything which affects the UK is ridiculous. I think you really should read what I write before you attempt to answer what, obviously, you think that I said. Without the +60s the vote was very much closer. YouGov did a sort of exit poll - they returned to people they surveyed just prior to the 18th and asked how they voted. The result was quite close to the actual outcome. The other age groups were as follows 16-24 49 Yes 51 No 25-39 55 Yes 45 No 40-59 47 Yes 53 No Oh, and I never said they voted through ignorance. That is another case of you making it up as you go along. I said that the +60s voted on the information they had. Most were unaware of WoS etc and had never used Facebook or Twitter. When have I ever claimed to speak on behalf of No voters? You can have your opinion but the fact remains that the gap was closing up until the scaremongering on pensions, the vow and Gordon Brown's appearance promising Home Rule one minute and Federalism the next. The 'tyranny of the majority' is not a phrase I would use. I suppose that, since you put it in quotes, you can link to where you think I made the comment. I will repeat, I have never said anything remotely anti English. Prove otherwise.
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Steve K
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Jan 22 2015, 12:08 AM
Post #40
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- morayloon
- Jan 21 2015, 04:33 PM
. . .Opinion Polls are the only way, other than a full blown election or referendum, to gauge public opinion. . . No they're not. The major parties give far more credence to focus groups to understand just why they are more or less likely to win. They just don't publish what those focus groups tell them.
And as for your poll you need to think through just how important Scots think the issue is. Was it to most an "I will die fighting for my view on this" issue or far more likely a "well all things being equal then I'd rather not have them" issue to most voters? Most voters say they'd prefer lower taxes and better funded schools and hospitals which compete as views. Guess which they'd really decide their vote over. And give them Security of the Realm v Not having a Nuclear Deterrent it'll be the former every time.
It's quite surprising how many newspapers can be sold harping on about views on issues the public barely gives tuppence about when push comes to shove.
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