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Killer Unions
Topic Started: Jan 21 2015, 01:12 PM (841 Views)
RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Quote:
 
The industrial action planned by Unison, Unite and the GMB means ambulance crews will strike from noon until midnight on Thursday, Jan 29, while hospital workers will walk out from 9am to 9pm on the same day.



Quote:
 
Just 13 per cent of union members had voted to take part in the strikes.


These people will strike, they know that such actions could/would/will put lives at risk. For what? For a one percentage increase in wages. These are the very people who find themselves claiming they sit on the moral high ground.

Quote:
 
Paramedic salaries start in Band 5, which ranges from £21,478 to £27,901
. Basic without shift allowances etc. etc. factored in.

Is it right that with only 13% saying yes that a Union can demand that members strike, withdraw their labour, and put those that have no alternatives at risk. Surely the risk is high enough already? Time for a "no strike clause" to be placed in such contracts, perhaps.

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Replies:
Affa
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Turd!
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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RJD
Jan 22 2015, 04:30 PM
Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 11:07 AM
RJD
Jan 22 2015, 09:07 AM
Steve K
Jan 21 2015, 10:19 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepdemanding that its members strike is it? It is calling on its members to strike. As gansao says, many won't and if there is any serious accident they will work again

- the Employer is operating as a cartel in a monopolistic position. You would and I believe have screamed blue murder if a monopoly was allowed to unfettered set financial conditions that dominated your life. Yet you argue for this for some of the lowest paid hard working people in our society.

- If as such a monopoly you have an Independent Review mechanism to avoid such issues then you have two choices in life. Either accept its recommendations or be a complete shit.

As for the 13% that's just a red herring. Most of those that did vote voted for a strike.

Also worth reading what the Union has to say on the matter:
http://www.unison.org.uk/at-work/health-care/key-issues/nhs-pay/what-is-the-issue/
I am not unhappy if you wish to change the word "demanding" as I differentiate it's meaning from that of the word "commanding".

I note that the Fire Brigade Union "ordered" --------. What is the difference between "ordering" and "demanding". Me thinks this is no more than smoke.
No they did not "demand". Maybe that's what the Daily Misery told you they said

The "called" for strikes. http://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2014/10/fire-strikes-escalate-firefighters-call-four-days-strike-action-protect-pensions-public-safety/

Did you have no rebut to the points about the NHS operating a monopoly and then rejecting independent proposals on salaries?

Twaddle you are making much of a word chosen by me to describe the situation and I am very comfortable with it, however, that is not the crux of the argument more like a means of screening away the key question. Demand is not command and I doubt that the word :"request" covers it.




I think that post ^ with its defence of using misleading words and its repeat refusal to answer a key raised point says so much about how seriously we should treat the OP

file under . . . . . . .

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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 06:47 PM
RJD
Jan 22 2015, 04:30 PM
Steve K
Jan 22 2015, 11:07 AM
RJD
Jan 22 2015, 09:07 AM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deepdemanding that its members strike is it? It is calling on its members to strike. As gansao says, many won't and if there is any serious accident they will work again

- the Employer is operating as a cartel in a monopolistic position. You would and I believe have screamed blue murder if a monopoly was allowed to unfettered set financial conditions that dominated your life. Yet you argue for this for some of the lowest paid hard working people in our society.

- If as such a monopoly you have an Independent Review mechanism to avoid such issues then you have two choices in life. Either accept its recommendations or be a complete shit.

As for the 13% that's just a red herring. Most of those that did vote voted for a strike.

Also worth reading what the Union has to say on the matter:
http://www.unison.org.uk/at-work/health-care/key-issues/nhs-pay/what-is-the-issue/
No they did not "demand". Maybe that's what the Daily Misery told you they said

The "called" for strikes. http://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2014/10/fire-strikes-escalate-firefighters-call-four-days-strike-action-protect-pensions-public-safety/

Did you have no rebut to the points about the NHS operating a monopoly and then rejecting independent proposals on salaries?

Twaddle you are making much of a word chosen by me to describe the situation and I am very comfortable with it, however, that is not the crux of the argument more like a means of screening away the key question. Demand is not command and I doubt that the word :"request" covers it.




I think that post ^ with its defence of using misleading words and its repeat refusal to answer a key raised point says so much about how seriously we should treat the OP

file under . . . . . . .

What question? Seems to be you and others are fixated on a single word, namely "demand" which has little bearing on the fundamental question which I repeated a number of times. So is 13% sufficient authority to claim a mandate?

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krugerman
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Tytoalba
Jan 22 2015, 11:11 AM
krugerman
Jan 22 2015, 08:47 AM
The title of this thread is very sensationalist and something of an exaggeration, infact it could easily be a Daily Mail headline, but bearing in mind that the unions have made every effort to cover urgent and emergency care, the title is also very unfair.

The right to strike is a basic right for almost all employees, and in most cases is a last resort, usually after negotiations have been exhausted, and in this particular instance the unions are not really asking for very much, all they would like is for the government to honour a recommendation by an independent pay body.

The independent pay body was set up by the government to make fair and impartial recommendations on pay, which begs the question "why bother"if your simply going to ignore the recommendations.

The government is poking a stick into a hornets nest, the threats of taking away the right to strike on some whimsy excuse about democracy is pathetic, my local Tory police and crime commissioner was elected on 13% turnout - should we declare her election void. ?

What are the unions supposed to do exactly ?, roll over and simply let the government walk all over them perhaps ?, how did we get to a situation where working people have rights ?, was it by standing up to governments and employers, or was it by accepting what was on offer. ?

If the health unions demands were unreasonable, like for example an inflation busting pay rise, then I might have some sympathy for the government, but it isent unreasonable to ask the government to abide by their own rules - is it. ?
Market forces always apply, with wage levels set by demands for employees and the number willing to take what is on offer... If people do not like the wagers on offer they walk away, and if the demand for labour is high wages rise.
On the news yesterday it said the demand for bricklayers was high, and where the daily rate was £100 a day. it is now £150 a day. If the ambulance crews don't like the wages they get they can withdraw their labour, and there will be difficulties for a while, but it will adjust in time
Its called supply and demand
. No employer is going to pay more than they can afford to , and employees cannot demand more than the market will support.
How many applicants are there to become ambulance crews or paramedics? If there are many, the government or local authorities can pick and chose what they are willing to pay up to the point where the numbers satisfy the need.
Can I remind all that it is not the government paying but taxpayers.
I posted two links, one on population numbers and their growth, and another on individual wealth and income compared with the rest of the world. 95% of the world are poorer than us, all willing to work and compete and gaining skills, willing to do so at much lower wages. That is huge competition for us, and unless we produce quality goods that others demand at the cost they are willing to pay, in direct completion to all the others, then we are going to slide back wards. High wage demands with shorter working weeks beyond that that brings in the money to pay the higher wages is going to make us uncompetitive in the world and the work will go elsewhere, and our own unemployment will rise. and wages will be reduced., and so the circle will continue. But of course that is just more rubbish.
An essential public service is what it says on the tin [essential-public-service], its not a product for sale, its not in competition, and its not manufactured in order to sell and make a profit, it is something we have simply got to have, like our armed forces.

Here below is a list of skills shortages from the governments "Shortage Occupation List", meaning that immigrants and migrants are invited to apply for these jobs. >> 2217 Medical Radiographers, HPC registered diagnostic radiographer, HPC registered therapeutic radiographer, sonographer, specialist nurses working in neonatal intensive care units, nuclear medicine technologists, radiotherapy technologist, ST3, ST4, ST5 and ST6 trainees in paediatrics or anaesthetics, SAS staff doctors in paediatrics or anaesthetics, consultants in paediatrics or anaesthetics,  non-consultant, non-training doctors in the specialty obstetrics and
gynaecology
And so the list goes on


You are correct of course that market forces prevail to a degree in health provision, in so much as lots of people are competing for our health professionals, we in this country for example have not been able to fill all our medical posts with home grown talent for 50 years, and we still cant, without immigrants our NHS would cease to function.

The problem with you people on the right of politics, is that you want it both ways, you want to drive down wages, terms and conditions in the NHS, but you do not like the fact that we still continue to pull in immigrants to fill the unfilled posts - which way do you want it. ?



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Steve K
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Once and future cynic
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RJD
Jan 23 2015, 04:18 PM
What question? Seems to be you and others are fixated on a single word, namely "demand" which has little bearing on the fundamental question which I repeated a number of times. So is 13% sufficient authority to claim a mandate?

There were the points I raised 2 days ago against your OP and yet you decided to seek to divert attention away from them going on about demand. So can you or cannot answer the point that you are arguing for a cartel to be allowed to exploit?

"- the Employer is operating as a cartel in a monopolistic position. You would and I believe have screamed blue murder if a monopoly was allowed to unfettered set financial conditions that dominated your life. Yet you argue for this for some of the lowest paid hard working people in our society.

- If as such a monopoly you have an Independent Review mechanism to avoid such issues then you have two choices in life. Either accept its recommendations or be a complete shit.

As for the 13% that's just a red herring. Most of those that did vote voted for a strike.

Also worth reading what the Union has to say on the matter:
http://www.unison.org.uk/at-work/health-care/key-issues/nhs-pay/what-is-the-issue/"
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