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| I wonder who has offered him a job.; Mark Hoban not standing for election. | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 23 2015, 01:02 PM (436 Views) | |
| papasmurf | Jan 23 2015, 01:02 PM Post #1 |
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I wonder if Maximus or Unum has offered him a job:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-30951507 23 January 2015 MP Mark Hoban to stand down from Parliament |
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| ranger121 | Jan 23 2015, 01:22 PM Post #2 |
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He says he's done 14 years, and that it's time for him to move on and do something else. Fair enough. Don't you believe in people having a free choice as to what they do, or is it that you think anyone in the House is subject to bribery, greed and corruption to the point where they'll just go where the money is, no matter the reputation of the employer? I put it to you that a job in the House might be extremely well-paid compared to the vast majority offered around the country, but in the big scheme of things in the South-East, the pay and perks are chicken feed. If, during his tenure in the House he has picked up some contacts and been offered a tasty job, excellent for him. Good luck to the man. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 23 2015, 01:46 PM Post #3 |
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Not in the case of ex-government ministers and senior civil servants when it come to working for a government contractor or a potential one. |
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| somersetli | Jan 23 2015, 01:56 PM Post #4 |
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somersetli
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How exactly could he be prevented from quitting one job and starting another? |
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| ranger121 | Jan 23 2015, 02:02 PM Post #5 |
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A large proportion of Private Sector companies work on government contracts, in fact, if they didn't, a large number would go out of business. All of these should be excluded from hiring ex-ministers or ex-MPs or ex-senior civil servants? What a load of tosh. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 23 2015, 02:27 PM Post #6 |
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Yes, because quite frankly there is always the stench of corruption as there currently is with Maximus, Unum and ATOS, the problem is working both ways. It called conflict of interests. |
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| Steve K | Jan 23 2015, 02:35 PM Post #7 |
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Once and future cynic
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For goodness sake PS he left government office in 2013 |
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| papasmurf | Jan 23 2015, 02:44 PM Post #8 |
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That makes no difference. It is getting to the stage that government contracts are being negotiated by people who have worked on both sides of the table. You may not think it stinks but I and a lot of other people do. (Especially when it comes to welfare related contracts.) |
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| ranger121 | Jan 23 2015, 03:24 PM Post #9 |
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If I was hiring someone to look after a government contract, what better person for the job than one who knows his way round Parliament committees, rules and so on, and is able to negotiate terms with people he is familiar with, and is already familiar with pitfalls which may crop up? Just a shame we can't hire a government to run the country from people who know what they are doing... |
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| Marconi | Jan 23 2015, 03:42 PM Post #10 |
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Yes, privatise the government. Let's see how they fair in the real world. Within 5 years there will be more chiefs than indians, immigrants will do it cheaper, continuous cycles of redundancies and recruitment, zero hour contracts to end paying for those redundancies, then finally outsourced to the Czech republic. I can't wait |
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| RJD | Jan 23 2015, 03:58 PM Post #11 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Why in the private sector would there be more Chiefs than Indians? I would expect the exact opposite. A bit of a none story as it says absolutely nothing about erstwhile Labour Ministers who found nice plumbs in the private sector. Lacks balance. |
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| Steve K | Jan 23 2015, 06:07 PM Post #12 |
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Once and future cynic
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I suggest you think it stinks because you just hate every conservative and feel they all should be thrown into penury no matter what the facts. You want real examples of conflict of interest I suggest look at local councils not junior ministers that left office the year before ast |
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| papasmurf | Jan 23 2015, 06:52 PM Post #13 |
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That is just the sort of incestuous cabal that has got government into bed with some quite frankly criminal companies. |
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| Affa | Jan 23 2015, 09:06 PM Post #14 |
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Some have short memories! |
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| Affa | Jan 23 2015, 09:14 PM Post #15 |
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Some have short memories! Oh, and the problem is not confined to MPs, serving or retired ........ Ministerial advisers, Whitehall Mandarins are also known to have had commercial ties. Andy Coulson was still on the NI payroll when employed as Cameron's communications director and sat in on Cabinet meetings. Money rules - money governs. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 08:32 AM Post #16 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Sometimes, not often enough, their avarice awards them a holiday at Her Majesties Hotel. Whilst such avarice exists across the political spectrum, based on recent history, those on the left have made sure their smackers were at the lip of the trough ready for a good guzzling with much gusto. I think a few of them actually ended up in jail. |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 11:39 AM Post #17 |
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And yet there are still apologists who claim that MP's are not paid enough commensurate with business men in the private sector, so lets look at that shall we? Some MP's have two jobs which must mean that they are not devoting 100% of their time to carrying out the duties of the task they were voted in to do, so not only do they not deserve any more but they should receive less for not fullfilling their roles regarding elected duties. Regarding commensurate wages with the private sector, considering that most of the time all they do is shout at each other in order to convince the electorate that they are debating what is in the best interests of this country, after all that pseudo hoo ha all they do is rubber stamp diktats from Brussels. And to rub the noses of the electorate into the shite even further they take the piss with expense accounts which most of the country could live on without a supplementary wage. This is not a politics of envy post but I cannot stand moralists who stand up and assert, "don't do as I do, do as I say" especially when they have the temerity to answer to the title of "honourable"....yeah right.
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 02:56 PM Post #18 |
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Never watched "Yes Minister" etc.? I would suggest that the episode where Mr Hacker is swamped with government 'red boxes' by his oppo in Administration is a fair representation of what is expected of some MPs, only nowadays the work is delivered digitally in the form of emails and the like. I would also suggest that for the responsibility that an MP carries, along with the work that they do, that the salary that they are paid is fairly poor, when compared to similar jobs in the private sector. Which is probably why when given a suitable opportunity they will 'jump' from public service to private sector profiteering as soon as they can. You seem to fail to realise that a job in the public sector is a thankless, piss-poor paid one with few perks and rewards, and if you're in parliament you are being watched constantly by a hostile media, a hostile electorate that mostly DIDN'T vote for you and yet you're expected to be a perfect role model who pays all your taxes, never says a cross word in public, doesn't drink, smoke, fart or have bad breath and has no ripped underpants from sitting on the fence. But how you've missed that I dunno. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 03:28 PM Post #19 |
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Given the very doubtful moves by some ex ministers of state and ex senior civil servants into the private sector getting jobs with quite frankly criminal companies who get very lucrative government contracts to the detriment of the general population who are adversely effected by those criminal companies, if you can't see a very big problem you need to go to Specsavers. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 03:30 PM Post #20 |
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Once and future cynic
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 03:59 PM Post #21 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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If rewards were based on market forces, supply/demand, then I am sure there will be no shortage of people willing, probably also as able, to take on the job (part time) of MP considering the pay and perks. Not convinced that a backbench MP can consider his role as equivalent to that of a GP as many would have us believe. It is extremely noticeable that once in the job the vast majority are reluctant to give it up. I would pay them a Daily Attendance Allowance plus fully vouched out of pocket expenses for travelling and subsistence. I do not buy the line that they need funds for research as their Political Party can and does this for them. I would like to see a situation where being a backbench MP is considered as a vocation not a means of obtaining an income and prefer that they are engaged elsewhere with the real World. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 04:11 PM Post #22 |
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A fair few politicians are already very wealthy before they even set foot in Parliament, what with jobs their dad got them, family fortunes to look after and networking to be done to ensure all that continues if they get the boot at the next election, the idea of that you could somehow bring them to heel by actually making them justify their expenses looks rather bizarre given all this. The real problem is in my opinion the notion of service has largely gone, instead Parliament has regressed to what it was in the 18th century, a place to do deals and enrich yourself further. Having met and spoken to all the MP's in my region I'd say all but one are entirely unsuitable for public service. |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 04:14 PM Post #23 |
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Nobody has forced them to apply for those sort of jobs and all the responsibilities that go with it, the fact of the matter is, if you cannot cope with standing for election, being elected on what you promised the people who elected you, then RESIGN and go back to those people and explain to them why you could not hack the hypocrisy that you did not know existed but is enforced upon you when in office by the whips.....in other words...bribery, vote with the party line or you will stay a backbencher. Which is why I constantly maintain that any party that is elected should have to by law adhere to the manifesto that they were elected upon and I am a great believer in the "power of recall". Edited by Rich, Jan 24 2015, 04:17 PM.
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 05:03 PM Post #24 |
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Any politician will tell you that any manifesto published before an election is not worth the paper that it's written on, is not 'legally' enforceable and if elected they can do exactly the opposite of what they may have 'promised' to do prior to a ballot if, in their opinion, it is 'best' for the country as a whole when they finally get in charge. Such is well-known amongst the electorate who have, for many years, understood that they cannot get a government to do what THEY want done. For example, even if Farage was the next PM, there would be no guarantee of an in/out referendum on the EU, and certainly no guarantee of a withdrawal from the EU, despite all of Farage's bluster. Which is why he has absolutely no chance of a majority. People instinctively know that whatever he promises just won't happen. One could, should one be bothered to, make a long list of pre-election promises that the current lot made which are still to be discussed and implemented, and you could do the same for every government elected since universal suffrage. Hell, even when Churchill was seeing thousands of ordinary people slaughtered every day when he was losing the war, he survived a vote of no confidence with only about twenty-odd votes against him - so what, exactly, would bring a government down? Cameron found in bed with a 14-year old with Clegg and Milliband each holding a video-camera? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 05:09 PM Post #25 |
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The publication of the datasets the DWP has been sitting on. (Note datasets plural.) |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 05:11 PM Post #26 |
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O ye of little faith, those in power will soon come to realise after this next election that those that do not adhere to promises made will not get a look in next time, the times they are a changing and folks are well pissed off with lies and broken promises, I do not think that any sort of allegiance will be important next time round(2020) it will all be about who can deliver what the majority DEMAND, and by then we may well be out of the EU. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 05:13 PM Post #27 |
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Once and future cynic
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file under fiction ^ Manifesto's have a defined place in the UK Constitution and I've posted several challenges over the years for people to show examples of where the elected government reneged on the manifesto. Have I been overwhelmed with examples. Not exactly, not remotely There is of course the UKIP manifesto that Farage wrote the forward to and later decided to call drivel because it was full of shite he hadn't bothered to read before putting his name to it. And ever since UKIP supporters have been broadcasting the lie that manifestoes are never taken seriously by governments. Sadly such grossly dishonest shit seems to stick. |
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 05:19 PM Post #28 |
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Wheeler R (on the application of) v. Office of the Prime Minister & Secretary of State for Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs [2008] EWHC 1409: The court’s judgment was that the promise of a referendum, or any other promise in a manifesto, could not be enforced. It was a matter of political judgment, not legal enforceability. Such matters were for Parliament to decide in the light of the politics of the day. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 05:22 PM Post #29 |
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I think I can clear this one up for you! Normal people mistake a manifesto for a promise, alas it is nothing of the sort, and this is where the confusion creeps in. In the real World most of us have little choice but to live by our word otherwise we get a poor reputation and end up being regarded with suspicion, in fact the only politician who ever kept his promises was according to the wartime foreign office Adolf Hitler! Everything he said he was going to do was written down in Mein Kampf! Translations were issued and studied. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 05:25 PM Post #30 |
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And even that's misleading ^ Faced with a preposterous legal action, the government of the day chose the route that cost the country the least to get it kicked out into touch. And people have been misrepresenting it ever after because they cannot actually be bothered to read up the detail of the stupid case Wheeler was putting forward on behalf of UKIP. Go on see what you can find as manifesto commitments that have been reneged on by the relevant elected government And you might want to google Salisbury Addison for the UK Constitution on the matter |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 05:37 PM Post #31 |
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It certainly seems like a lot of people never ever read the manifestos (I always read them and download most), believe what they imagined they said or what the man down the pub tells them they said and then get all full of bollocks when their sad imagined false history turns out to be untrue So go on: The typical manifesto (or in this case coalition agreement) has dozens and dozens of promises, now find some that have been reneged on. Your best chance is on rape anonymity but the London Taxi rapist fall out just after the election meant that it would have been grossly against public opinion to have forced that through. I do hope you are intelligent enough to know the difference between "we will take action to counter" and the imagined "we will eliminate" |
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 05:40 PM Post #32 |
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The Salisbury Doctrine, or "Convention" as it is sometimes called, emerged from the working arrangements reached during the Labour Government of 1945-51, when the fifth Marquess of Salisbury was the Leader of the Conservative Opposition in the Lords. The Convention ensures that major Government Bills can get through the Lords when the Government of the day has no majority in the Lords. In practice, it means that the Lords does not try to vote down at second or third reading, a Government Bill mentioned in an election manifesto. What this doesn't mean is that election promises in a manifesto are 'legally enforceable', as Mr Wheeler found out. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 05:56 PM Post #33 |
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No it goes back to the 1880s http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpolcon/528/528vw07.htm And absolutely counters your "Any politician will tell you that any manifesto published before an election is not worth the paper that it's written on" Would be interesting to see if you can back your "One could, should one be bothered to, make a long list of pre-election promises that the current lot made which are still to be discussed and implemented, and you could do the same for every government elected since universal suffrage." It's not like there aren't web sites out there to help you. As for Wheeler he should have been jailed for wasting public money. He pushed a false line about the Lisbon treaty because either he lied about having read it or lied about the content. But hey ho, to UKIP such is a martyr which frankly says so much about UKIP. |
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 06:18 PM Post #34 |
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What is being discussed here (or rather the point that I am trying to make) is whether election promises made in a manifesto are 'legally enforceable' - ie that if the elected government DOESN'T put such promises into a bill, they cannot be forced to by anyone. Therefore, a party can say that they are going to sack the Queen if they thought that would get them elected, but in actual fact they don't HAVE to do it later, and nobody can make them do it. What the convention means is that any manifesto promise put into a bill that gets to the Lords cannot be wrecked by the Lords, and must be passed 'on the nod' so to speak. Are there any governments that haven't fulfilled their promises that have been brought to some sort of Court for failing to do what they said they would do? I doubt it will ever happen - they just lose the next election to the next party that makes promises that it won't keep... |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 06:30 PM Post #35 |
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Yes but that is not the point you originally made. And in any event is not the behaviour we have seen from any government I can recall. Even Labour's 2001 manifesto "As we deliver economic stability not return the economy to Tory boom and bust" they tried to keep to. Politicians are human, would we want anything else? But they do make honest mistakes and a few dishonest ones - seems the man down the pub want to accuse them of doing nothing else than the latter. We have what is known as a representative democracy and there are forces in this country that want to utterly destroy that. All this crap about "politicians always lie" and "manifestoes are always ignored" is food and drink to such people. And as both it and they happen to both be wrong I will challenge it. Happy reading? Every major manifesto since WW2 |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 06:48 PM Post #36 |
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Fxxk what those in office say, it is the electorate who pay for the priviledge of those who hold office and attain the titleship of HONOURABLE to do what they say they they are going to do, let us suppose that those wishing to attain office promise that they will do nothing, do you suppose we would vote for them, just because it has been and accepted for so long does not mean it cannot be and should not be so, I am sure that all of you out there who pay an insurance of some kind or another would be well pissed off if on the day of reckoning that policy was not recognised because it was only good intentions and not a promise. |
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| ranger121 | Jan 24 2015, 07:17 PM Post #37 |
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Umm... an insurance policy is a written contract between two parties, agreed by both. We don't have a written contract with a political party to deliver whatever they promise to do - therefore nothing is 'enforceable'. The only thing that we the electors have is the threat of them losing their jobs when they are seen to have failed to do what they said they would do. I expected the government to deliver on my pension (after all, they DID promise) - and it's getting further away, worth less and is very likely to be disappointing when I eventually drag it out of them - do I have any legal recourse on this? I think you know the answer already. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 07:46 PM Post #38 |
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Did they promise you that they would deliver you a triple lock escalated pension on that day? As soon as escalation came in, pension pay out age became up for variation |
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| Nonsense | Jan 24 2015, 08:01 PM Post #39 |
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I seem to recall that 'democracy' was government of the people, by the people & for the people. By that reckoning, what has business got to do with government & what has government got to do with business? Silly me, I ought to have known, it's money of course, which corrupts all, how naïve of me...NOT..to have realized that. One cannot\should NOT 'serve two masters', either an MP\PM 'serves' the people, or they 'serve' business, they should not 'serve' both at the same time, that's where 'corruption' arises. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 09:00 PM Post #40 |
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Well since that's taken from President Lincoln's famous Gettysburg address I think it's safe to assume he very much was talking about Representative Democracy |
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