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| What did Supermac say? | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 23 2015, 04:08 PM (574 Views) | |
| RJD | Jan 23 2015, 04:08 PM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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It might be a little early to stake that claim, but with; Brits spending more in shops in 2014 than ever before, more people in work than ever, even better than the USA. British businesses doing better with ROCE back up to ~12%. Prices in shops falling, inflation down, even pay is now nudging upwards. Mortgages on properties the cheapest ever and the cost of money likely to stay low for a very long time. I wonder how long it will be before we here that claim? |
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| Tigger | Jan 23 2015, 07:41 PM Post #2 |
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Looks like the Welsh version of Pravda is pushing tractor production again! This is what Supermac would have said, after he decelerated from spinning at 10,000rpm. What the fuque are you doing! How many times do you need to inflate housing causing the people of Britain to go on a spending spree and unsecured borrowing binge thus trashing the trade balance and causing yet another credit bubble that will crash the economy? After seeing this once again my old mate Attlee who said export or die has just asked God for a free pass to hell........... File under have a word with them yourself when you eventually get there. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 08:35 AM Post #3 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I see the truth of my claims has addled your brain and you are lost as to how to respond with reason. Well done Tig. I can always count on you. |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 24 2015, 09:44 AM Post #4 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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OP Title: What did Supermac say?
If I recall correctly (it was the sun wot made me aware of it the day after the speech) it went something like "first the silver goes, then the nice furniture we had in the salon, then the canalettos" Yes, I can see the parallels with the images of the black friday sales queues. Mad bastards rushing round to "buy, buy, buy" before the "bargains" are all gone ... |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 10:10 AM Post #5 |
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Quite, I did not go to any sales but shipped online apart from a worktop and jigsaw blades. The kitchen in my home had got to the stage I had to do some Destroy It Yourself or my wife would have been cooking on the open fire in the living room, using a camping cooker inside, (not safe,) or a barrel barbecue outside, (not practical in winter.) I have just finished the job for less than £300 and that included a gas fitter to connect the gas hob and certificate it, and an electrician to do some safety checking because of a conflict between a gas safety and electrical safety regulations. (The new gas hob does not need earth bonding despite the gas fitter insisting it did.) New worktop, £20, new fan oven/grill, £50, new two burner gas hob, £125 (usually used on boats,) £10 for an offcut of 12mm marine plywood, £10 for a couple of offcuts of 3mm aluminium tread plate. £10 for two heavy duty folding support hinges. 4 end trims for the work top and folding shelf £8. Plus some new blades for my jigsaw. I already had the screws needed. I suspect the upturn in retail sales is just a blip. |
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| krugerman | Jan 24 2015, 10:41 AM Post #6 |
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Supermac was a decent Conservative, and there aint many of those about any more, infact neither Cameron or Osborne could lick the boots of Harold Macmillan. So many wild claims made both by this government, and on behalf of this government, like for example that the deficit has halved (not true), like for example that spending on the NHS has risen in real terms (not true), that the recession and financial crisis was all the fault of the previous government (not true), that we would have a budget surplus by 2015 ( well that speaks for itself ), we are all in this together ( unless your rich and pay supertax ). The dishonesty just goes on and on and on More people than ever before in part time, insecure work, more people than ever in history on zero hours contracts, here today and gone tomorrow jobs, less rights, less entitlements, employment on the cheap driving the economy, a race to the bottom of the pile. More scrimpers than 5 years ago, more poverty, more families struggling in work than 5 years ago, more uncertainty, less prospects, an economy driven by apprentices on less than £3 per hour, Lidl and Aldi, a typical Tory economy where the bosses rule with more power, and the workers are a mere commodity with no comeback. |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 24 2015, 11:06 AM Post #7 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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As does yours. In several other posts on here some of your own claims restated above have been shown to be at best misleading and at worst complete falsehoods. I am too young to have known the country under his governance. I am however aware of the nature of political conversation between the elected and the electorate at that time. I don't know if he was a "decent" conservative or not, I know that the man who came later I most closely associate with the one nation conservatism he is said to have advocated was anything but decent legal and truthful, and I also know that neither of the "men" who lead the main political parties today would have stood a chance in the past when substance held sway over form and appearance. Now, if you have something further to say that relates to something attributed to Harold Macmillan then carry on. |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 24 2015, 11:23 AM Post #8 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Quite. I think it was the head of John Lewis who went on record to say the UK retail sector's decision to put so much emphasis on "Black Friday Sales" was ill conceived and served to do nothing except deflate sales in December and January. Why this should surprise anyone beats me. People only have so much money to spend. I do not share RJD's optimism that all is rosy in the garden. Industrial, Office and retail premises round here are just as empty today as they were when the Gordon Brown took the decision not to bankers find out the hard way how far down it is from the top of canary wharf tower. |
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| krugerman | Jan 24 2015, 12:08 PM Post #9 |
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Harold Macmillan was known to people in the area where I live, he was a frequent visitor to the North York Moors, he was known as a compassionate, caring and decent Tory, something that is now virtually extinct. During the Great Depression years Harold Macmillan frequently spoke out against the high levels of unemployment on Teesside, many say that he was in the wrong party, and it has always been known that he was an admirer of several Liberal leaders and prime ministers. I can state with confidence that Harold Macmillan had more in common with Tony Blair than he would have had with David Cameron, or did had with Margaret Thatcher, he was a centerist, and it was he who first advocated "the third way" - an escape from the old dogmas that pulled Britain too and fro. Harold Macmillan a good man |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 12:12 PM Post #10 |
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Neither do I, especially when he uses the Torygraph as a reference, which over the last couple of weeks has been running completely blatant pro-Tory propaganda articles that are not accepting comments underneath them. No right of reply? |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 12:37 PM Post #11 |
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Do you think we would be in the situation we are in if there were not so many bods in this country? (serious question) |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 12:44 PM Post #12 |
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Once and future cynic
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Well I'll second that point. As a kid I rather unfairly saw Mac just as an icon of all the class driven crap of the 50's. But he was far far better than that. He inherited an appalling position with Britain's reputation as low as it could get and did much to improve things across the board both here and abroad. In retrospect perhaps the worst thing he did was keep Hugh Gaitskell from office. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 12:56 PM Post #13 |
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I have made my opinion VERY clear on this and the old forum many times, I have been against ALL immigration since I was aged 11 back in 1959. That does not change the fact the Tories have been deliberately kicking the poor and disadvantaged as a policy. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 01:42 PM Post #14 |
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Another untutored and dreary post. A slightly brighter person than you, not difficult given the general lack of quality displayed in your posts would be well aware that the nations debt levels have been elevated substantially under the current shower of shit to presumably buy the next election, never mind that we pay a billion quid a week just in interest on this debt and ignore the fact that yet another debt fuelled asset bomb is quietly ticking away under the economy. Remind me again who has the addled brain? |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 02:06 PM Post #15 |
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So, Papa, rather than keep on moaning, what is YOUR solution to all our woes, do not post links, do not give one line answers, put in your own words just how we can get to where YOU think we should be, just imagine that YOU are the PM/Chancellor and explain how to get us out of this somewhat terrible dilemma that you claim we face. |
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| Affa | Jan 24 2015, 02:28 PM Post #16 |
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How anyone sane can identify having falling living standards as "never had it so good" is beyond preposterous! |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 02:49 PM Post #17 |
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Best ask those in 3rd world countries whereby we are so well off that we can give away billions in aid to them, even though they can afford nuclear capacity and space travel and also afford to campaign wars against their neighbours and still have money left over to stash away in private offshore accounts ready for the days when they must flee the same persecution that they themselves are in inflicting on their fellow human beings AND apparently, all in the name of that magic word....RELIGION, yes, it seems to be the cause of all the ills in the world, shssh......don't tell anyone or they might latch on and agree to do something drastic about it. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 03:04 PM Post #18 |
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Just how many times to I have to state them before it penetrates into your mind and stick? Stop ALL immigration. Privatise evaded tax collection on a no cure no pay 1/2% of tax recovered with a carte blanche no questions asked as to method. Scrap the massive waste of tax payers money privatised Work Capability Assessment, and Personal Independence Payments assessment. Bring them both in house, make them real life tests, carried out by a new ministry specific to the purpose. Shut down the DWP it has not ever been fit for purpose. Divide the what was the DWP up, into separate roles. Most people who find themselves unemployed get a job within 6 months, the majority quicker than that. They don't need being demonising or harassing. Anyone out of work for more that six months to be psychometrically tested for what their they are and are not good at, enabling more specific targeting of education/training they may need Bring back industry levies for training, and also bring back training for trades "in house," the privatisation of that back in the 1980s was and is unmitigated disaster. Large companies have NEVER created jobs to get Britain out of a recession, small companies have. So stop subsidising big business, and give small ones large tax advantages. Scrap HS2. Concentrate on making good the road system, and improving the current rail infrastructure. (For instance it is a nonsense the 3rd largest natural harbour on the planet, (Falmouth) does not have a rail line into the docks and only has a single line into Falmouth. (The Hippies would need to be told to F off in this instance as well.) Tell the hippies to (Expletive deleted) off and build some nuclear power stations a rapidly as possible, (That is a "temporary" sticking plaster.) No real expansion of manufacturing can take place until there is a lot more electricity generating capacity. That is just a start. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 03:09 PM Post #19 |
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Once and future cynic
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I agree with most of that ^ I may need to take a lie down.The small company thing is a myth though, they get generous subsidies already and are the worst at exploiting workers |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 03:21 PM Post #20 |
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The small company thing isn't a myth and entire sectors of the economy have large employers who pay as little as possible because they know wages will be topped up with in work benefits. www.aston.ac.uk/10ksb/news/moving-towards-growth/ With aggregate data flat-lining in terms of jobs and output and the UK transitioning in and out of recession it seems there is still work to be done in order to stimulate a recovery. Yet a closer look at the evidence regarding UK small businesses and entrepreneurs presents a potentially encouraging story of the economy and its prognosis for future growth. In any one month since the UK economy went into crisis there has been, on average, around 50,000 jobs created in new firms and a further 90,000 in existing small businesses (less than 50 employees). In comparison, gross job creation in large firms (that is, more than 250 employees) was around 35,000 on average each month since 2008. Despite the challenging state of the economic recovery the figures show quite clearly a small business sector which has created a large number of jobs in the face of the most challenging economic conditions for many decades in the UK. |
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 03:34 PM Post #21 |
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Once and future cynic
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If I were you I'd look at all the grants SMEs can get and all the employee protection laws small businesses can ignore and in my experience too frequently do. Edited by Steve K, Jan 24 2015, 03:35 PM.
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 03:44 PM Post #22 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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My optimism how did you conclude that as I only asked an obvious question. However, compared with the serial whinges who see disaster at every turn one could construe that I am indeed optimistic. I am not fan of debt fuelled consumption and prefer we rebalance our economy away from such towards exportable production, but unfortunately the Usuals want this and a Big Nanny State and the two just don't fit. Nobody is going to come to the UK and invest for altruistic reasons. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 04:02 PM Post #23 |
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Your problem is RJD you think the Torygraph is telling you the truth and you don't bother checking if there is anything backing them up. There is a converging disaster that is of the Tories own making, because they have believed and continue to believe their own propaganda. The are not only suffering from cognitive dissonance, but according to Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) they are suffering from Antisocial Personality Disorder as well. Definition https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder Antisocial personality disorder is best understood within the context of the broader category of personality disorders. A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of personal experience and behavior that deviates noticeably from the expectations of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to personal distress or impairment. Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others. The diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder is not given to individuals under the age of 18 and is only given if there is a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15. The severity of symptoms of antisocial personality disorder can vary in severity. The more egregious, harmful, or dangerous behavior patterns are referred to as sociopathic or psychopathic. There has been much debate as to the distinction between these descriptions. Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as a something severely wrong with one's conscience; psychopathy is characterized as a complete lack of conscience regarding others. Some professionals describe people with this constellation of symptoms as "stone cold" to the rights of others. Complications of this disorder include imprisonment, drug abuse, and alcoholism. People with this illness may seem charming, but they are likely to be irritable and aggressive as well as irresponsible. They may have numerous somatic complaints and perhaps attempt suicide. Due to their manipulative tendencies, it is difficult to separate what they say about themselves that is true from what is not. Edited by papasmurf, Jan 24 2015, 04:02 PM.
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 04:03 PM Post #24 |
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Thank you Papa, at last we now have something we can work with and debate in a civilised manner, I shall digest your views and reply in an equally civilised and polite manner. As you well know, I have never denigrated you and in some instances backed up your opinions, but when you come to inflicting physical harm to those that are doing their job as they see fit then I must disagree with you. As is amply evident throughout the world today, violence has got us nowhere. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 04:14 PM Post #25 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I really do not know what my list has to do with your reference to personality disorders. Maybe you could enlighten. The points made are nothing to do with the Torygraph are in the public domain, are considered to be facts and I see nothing from you to prove otherwise. Try keeping on subject. I understand that you do not like the information as it flies right in the face of your dogma, but because you do not like it that does not allow you to claim that ONS have it wrong. The disaster, if we are indeed facing one, is not rebalancing the economy away from debt fuelled consumption quickly enough as another economic storm will hurt as we remain very exposed. Clearly those who are mentally sick require care, but I do not think that the UK's economic strategy should be designed just for that group. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 04:20 PM Post #26 |
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When you've found out what percentage of GDP is spent on poor darkies and blokes that look like people in your local newsagent get back to us and explain how this small percentage will transform Britain. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 04:29 PM Post #27 |
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A bit late for that now I'm afraid, after Osbrownes exhortations four years ago about being more like Germany what with balanced budgets paid for with trade surpluses and responsible fiscal management he's gone back to traditional Tory policies of boom and bust, phrases like the march of the manufacturers and ethical banking now look rather lame. 9/10 for at least giving it a go, 0/10 for betting the farm on the old and failed policies of the past. File under same old Tories/Labour/dog turds. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 04:33 PM Post #28 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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PS: Just how many times to I have to state them before it penetrates into your mind and stick? Could to see that Rich has at last prodded you enough to get you to declare your economic strategy for the UK. Let's see what this means: PS: Stop ALL immigration. The consequence will be negative net migration, mainly due to young people emigrating, who then will pay the taxes to support the welfare programme? PS: Privatise evaded tax collection on a no cure no pay 1/2% of tax recovered with a carte blanche no questions asked as to method. Not really clear what this means, looks like some sort of Bounty system, anyway how much revenue will it bring in? PS: Scrap the massive waste of tax payers money privatised Work Capability Assessment, and Personal Independence Payments assessment. Bring them both in house, make them real life tests, carried out by a new ministry specific to the purpose. Looks like even more expense in the name of dogma. PS: Shut down the DWP it has not ever been fit for purpose. Divide the what was the DWP up, into separate roles. Most people who find themselves unemployed get a job within 6 months, the majority quicker than that. They don't need being demonising or harassing. Anyone out of work for more that six months to be psychometrically tested for what their they are and are not good at, enabling more specific targeting of education/training they may need. Looks like even more expense in the name of dogma. PS: Bring back industry levies for training, and also bring back training for trades "in house," the privatisation of that back in the 1980s was and is unmitigated disaster. I think the UK requires computer literate people as well as Plumbers and Electricians. Love to know exactly what sort of training this is to be as if limited just to trades then that will not have much of an impact on our economy. I doubt that the State is suited to providing anything specialised and should concentrate on basics. PS: Large companies have NEVER created jobs to get Britain out of a recession, small companies have. So stop subsidising big business, and give small ones large tax advantages. Love to see substantiation of this claim. PS: Scrap HS2. Concentrate on making good the road system, and improving the current rail infrastructure. (For instance it is a nonsense the 3rd largest natural harbour on the planet, (Falmouth) does not have a rail line into the docks and only has a single line into Falmouth. (The Hippies would need to be told to F off in this instance as well.) Why not invest in a super-fast broadband that could make working from home and/or many of the journeys unnecessary? Not a fan of HS2. PS: Tell the hippies to (Expletive deleted) off and build some nuclear power stations a rapidly as possible, (That is a "temporary" sticking plaster.) No real expansion of manufacturing can take place until there is a lot more electricity generating capacity. I support a programme for building nuclear generators, but it is a bit unrealistic to expect high energy consuming industries to locate in the UK. Our future must be with high value adding industries and these are not significant consumers of energy. Overall we should not be looking to increase energy consumption, but securing it from external political events. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 04:41 PM Post #29 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Well I always supported such, but unfortunately many wish it but are unprepared to inconvenience themselves, they prefer Magic Wand economic solutions. As we stand, if you can believe them the Tories intend to reduce the Public Spending Deficit in around 2020 and get the mountain of public debt down to ~40% of GDP by around 2030, whereas Labour support borrowing longer and reducing our debts to a safe level by around 2070. In summary the Tories have no chance of achieving their stated goals and Labour are not really interested. If you know a way of rebalancing our economy when the State borrows to fuel current consumption and keeps taxes high then I would like to see it. |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 04:44 PM Post #30 |
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Personally, I would not spend one single penny on those so called "darkies" as you so disdainfully call them, for your information that continent (Africa) sits on most of the desirable mineral assets on this planet just ask the Chinese. You sir need to take your blinkers of and look at the bigger picture, the African continent cannot live in peace together, they all want what each other has, and to the man in the street that is nothing, but to those that rule those countries it is riches beyond their dreams and so corruption is the name of the game here you have a dog eat dog society and the west is exacorbating the situation by sitting back with it's head in it's hands and feeling guilty, so by throwing much needed dosh at those oh so poor "darkies" that you refer to, we defer the "guilt" of colonisation which ended donkeys years ago, they asked for independence, they have it. let them now get on with it in their own way and let us stop feeling sorry for them, perhaps Mr Mugabe has the answer to all their woes. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 04:48 PM Post #31 |
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RJD, I have often stated what I would do, you have memory loss as well. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 04:51 PM Post #32 |
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It is called the no cure no pay system, I would expect it to bring in £50 billion a year. (At least.) |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 04:51 PM Post #33 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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No you have not, in fact your coyness on this has made me wonder whether or not you are a closet Marxist. Still what you listed was a shopping list not to be confused with an economic strategy. |
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| RJD | Jan 24 2015, 04:52 PM Post #34 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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More details as £50b PA is worth having, so spell it out in detail. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 04:52 PM Post #35 |
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It was only a few samples from a very long list. |
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| Tigger | Jan 24 2015, 04:53 PM Post #36 |
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None of this is likely to happen even if your dream of slashing public services is enacted, as we now seem to have conclusive proof that creating perhaps two million insecure, low paid and unskilled jobs has had no effect on bringing in more tax, in fact less income tax has been the result, couple this with a massive rise in the cost of housing benefit and subsidies for those low paid workers I'd suggest your plans are literally dead in the water. Reform is needed at the top of the economy not the bottom, the Tories are hell bent on ensuring that the feckless wealthy and asset holders do not take a much needed early bath, put simply the economy let alone our society cannot afford to keep these people in the manner to which they have become accustomed. The Tories have avctually subverted the laws of true capitalism by continuing this. They in fact have built an economy that is now self looting. Edited by Tigger, Jan 24 2015, 04:54 PM.
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| Steve K | Jan 24 2015, 06:08 PM Post #37 |
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I'd expect it to bring in organised crime big time the way you phrased it |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 07:02 PM Post #38 |
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Basically, what you are saying is that home grown jobs are of no benefit to this country, therefore can you justify all the jobs that have been created for the apparent benefit of this country by NL by the unleashed flood of immigrants into this country? Don't be shy, please point out to the Dimmo's like myself on this board who cannot quite comprehend the apparent benefits they bring, I am eager to learn where exactly my thinking has gone wrong in wanting the best for MY country. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 24 2015, 07:20 PM Post #39 |
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I would expect the opposite, there are few people with the necessary expertise to do the collecting, but there are also less than 100 people to collect the bulk of it off. |
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| Rich | Jan 24 2015, 07:39 PM Post #40 |
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Have you appraised the appropriate police authorities of such? |
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I agree with most of that ^ I may need to take a lie down.
2:32 PM Jul 11