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Soviet 10 year plans.
Topic Started: Jan 27 2015, 11:29 AM (879 Views)
Tytoalba
Senior Member
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The Labour party and Millband have introduced another ten year soviet style plan into their election manifesto, now with a ten year plan for the NHS and social security
I seem to remember they made similar 10 year plans in the past prior to other elections, with the Railways coming to mind, but I believe there were others, so here they go again, with their Soviet style 10 year Manana plans for the future that will be forgotten in the future when they are not achieved.
Not today, not tomorrow, not next month or year, but always in the distant future.
Promises, promises , promises. Manana, Manana, Manana, but nothing for today.

But I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
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Affa
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Short-term solutions invariably result in a repeat of the problem.
It is short therm 'popularist' measures that have dogged UK economic progress in the past, and do so now.

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Affa
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It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

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Tytoalba
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Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:45 AM
It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

The future is always unpredictable. Before the 39-45 war they had a ten year plan for arming the country, yet keeping the costs down, thinking they could work on the assumption that they could would be able to foresee the future up to ten years in advance and save money in the process.
It lasted for about a year. Ten year plans are not worth a penny. The NHS is not viable into the future in its current form, and if we want the service we want we have to pay more for it. When I say WE I mean WE, as individuals, not someone else or we will go forward with one confrontation after another, one patch after another.
Personally I'm fed up with the political arguments and point scoring. If there is a problem then lets address it.

I wonder how the new left wing government in Greece is going to solve theirs without the money to do so.
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Tigger
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What the hell are you babbling on about now ffs? ;D

Ten year plans, communism and Labour all nicely juxtaposed to give off some air of doom! The problem in the UK is long term planning is almost unheard of due to the instability of what is laughingly called the free market. A Chinese finance minister two of three years ago claimed that China was largely unconcerned with volatile stock markets and the anal obsession with every minute change of fortune, no, he said they were looking ten to twenty years ahead and that was what the government was planning for and working towards, control of your own destiny is what China plans for, completely unthinkable in an increasingly unstable and financially incompetent West.

In the past the "markets" have said that 10% annual growth in China was dangerous but then when it dropped to 6% a full blown recession was on the way! Growth then went back up to 7% and the economy was overheating. The markets are frankly bollocks!
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Tytoalba
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Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 01:27 PM
What the hell are you babbling on about now ffs? ;D

Ten year plans, communism and Labour all nicely juxtaposed to give off some air of doom! The problem in the UK is long term planning is almost unheard of due to the instability of what is laughingly called the free market. A Chinese finance minister two of three years ago claimed that China was largely unconcerned with volatile stock markets and the anal obsession with every minute change of fortune, no, he said they were looking ten to twenty years ahead and that was what the government was planning for and working towards, control of your own destiny is what China plans for, completely unthinkable in an increasingly unstable and financially incompetent West.

In the past the "markets" have said that 10% annual growth in China was dangerous but then when it dropped to 6% a full blown recession was on the way! Growth then went back up to 7% and the economy was overheating. The markets are frankly bollocks!
Just like Labours 10 year plans.
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Alberich
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Alberich
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What is more relevant is that Labours solution for the NHS is simply more money. But no matter how much more they, or any government, pours into the NHS, it will never be enough...not without meaningful reorganisation, and if that means some aspects hived off to the private sector, then as long as treatment remains free at the point of delivery, where's the problem?
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Affa
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There is an established opinion that the NHS is 'unaffordable'.
Yet none can say that any of the reforms made or proposed has or will reduce these costs!
So what is going on?
First off the notion of unaffordabily is BS. Relatively speaking we get the NHS on the cheap.
The notion itself is put about is political, is spin, and done for effect.
Reports of the NHS in crisis, of longer waits, of A&E collapsing under the strain is music to Conservative ears ...... they have a solution! Privatise it!
If Mrs T did anything worth remembering it is that the spin giving rise to privatisation is undeniably BS.

This is how it is done ....... cut investment, staffing levels, in public services. run them down until they can be said to be in crisis, unfit for purpose, and then sell them off dirt cheap to speculators certain of making a ton of money.

Edited by Affa, Jan 27 2015, 03:10 PM.
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krugerman
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Tytoalba
Jan 27 2015, 11:29 AM
The Labour party and Millband have introduced another ten year soviet style plan into their election manifesto, now with a ten year plan for the NHS and social security
I seem to remember they made similar 10 year plans in the past prior to other elections, with the Railways coming to mind, but I believe there were others, so here they go again, with their Soviet style 10 year Manana plans for the future that will be forgotten in the future when they are not achieved.
Not today, not tomorrow, not next month or year, but always in the distant future.
Promises, promises , promises. Manana, Manana, Manana, but nothing for today.

But I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
The only vague similarity to the old Soviet 5 year plans is that its called "a plan" and its a plan which is spread over a period of years, but thats as far as any similarity goes, and its not really odd, strange or unusual to have a plan is it ?, after all, most governments have plans, businesses have plans.

The present government had a "5 year plan" to wipe out our deficit, it was a plan set out to the nation in July 2010, but its a failed plan.

This particular thread, together with its title and opening post is an utterly pathetic attempt to associate Ed Miliband and the Labour Party with old fashioned and outdated Soviet socialist ideas and policies, its really rather childish.

Our National Health Service needs a plan, it needs more doctors and nurses to create the conditions to give more time and care to patients, to reduce the unacceptable length of time it now takes to get a doctors appointment, to put a stop people waiting in queuing ambulances at A&E, and to halt the fragmenting of services which is what is now happening.

The NHS is thankfully the number 1 election issue, and as we all know, the NHS has deteriorated in the last 5 years, just as it always does when the Tories are in power.
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Oddball 2014
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The Soviets were more into the idea of '5-Year Plans', but as Rabbie Burns might have said, they 'gang aft agley'.
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RJD
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Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:45 AM
It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

It certainly is deliverable within a decade. It would also be very sensible not to borrow from the future to fund current consumption, have a balanced budget that follows the Golden Rule and attempt not to undermine the value of our currency. however, that requires living within ones revenues and that is not a concept the left will sign up for.
Same goes for rebalancing the economy away from debt fuelled consumption towards greater exportable production, we know what to do but most, who are promised jam today, prefer not to go down that road.

I see nothing wrong with 10 year plans as long as they are adjusted from time to time to meet with changing circumstances. That said I am reminded of the Soviet responsible for the production of finished steel products such as nuts and bolts and the like, one year they met a target, one for nails, very early on in the year, only to discover the target was set in tonnes and they fulfilled the quota by only producing the 6" variety. I suspect the UK Jobs-worthies are capable of the same level of stupidity or was/is it dumb insolence?



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RJD
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Alberich
Jan 27 2015, 02:33 PM
What is more relevant is that Labours solution for the NHS is simply more money. But no matter how much more they, or any government, pours into the NHS, it will never be enough...not without meaningful reorganisation, and if that means some aspects hived off to the private sector, then as long as treatment remains free at the point of delivery, where's the problem?
It is not just a matter of organisation, objectives need to be redefined and re-stated.
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RJD
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Affa
Jan 27 2015, 03:06 PM
There is an established opinion that the NHS is 'unaffordable'.
Yet none can say that any of the reforms made or proposed has or will reduce these costs!
So what is going on?
First off the notion of unaffordabily is BS. Relatively speaking we get the NHS on the cheap.
The notion itself is put about is political, is spin, and done for effect.
Reports of the NHS in crisis, of longer waits, of A&E collapsing under the strain is music to Conservative ears ...... they have a solution! Privatise it!
If Mrs T did anything worth remembering it is that the spin giving rise to privatisation is undeniably BS.

This is how it is done ....... cut investment, staffing levels, in public services. run them down until they can be said to be in crisis, unfit for purpose, and then sell them off dirt cheap to speculators certain of making a ton of money.

Have the last lot of reforms, started by NL. not resulted with the NHS living within a frozen budget and producing ~5% productivity improvements? If you want an organisation to waste a lot of money to not much avail then loosen the reins. If you want improvements in productivity then keep at tight grip and learn how to say no firmly. The last review by the Head of the NHS said that an increased budget was required to meet the demographic challenge, but he intended to find the bulk of this via efficiency improvements, so let's give the man a chance and back his plan.



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Affa
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RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:02 PM
Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:45 AM
It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

It certainly is deliverable within a decade. I

When even Osborne is assuring us that it will be a four to five years yet before the deficit is gone - meantime he just has to keep right on borrowing - increasing the debt, increasing interest payments, Another five years of £billions being added. (Will the rates for borrowing be subject to an increase if the rest put up rates?). Osborne borrowed more in four years than Labour did in Thirteen - and he hasn't finished yet.

I don't see the debt being gone in thirty years - our grandkids certainly do have a legacy.
Oh; and nobody will be more surprised than you if George does manage to balance the books in 2018-19 as forecast.



Edited by Affa, Jan 27 2015, 05:22 PM.
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RJD
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Affa
Jan 27 2015, 05:17 PM
RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:02 PM
Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:45 AM
It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

It certainly is deliverable within a decade. I

When even Osborne is assuring us that it will be a few years yet before the deficit is gone - meantime he just has to keep right on borrowing - increasing the debt, increasing interest payments, (Will the rates be subject to an increase if the rest put up rates?).
I don't see the debt being gone in thirty years - our grandkids certainly do have a legacy.
Oh; and nobody will be more surprised than you if George does manage to balance the books in 2018-19 as forecast.



The Tories proposals are to reduce the deficit to a negative one by 2020 and holding it there until such time as the mountain of debt is reduced to an acceptable level of ~40% of GDP in about 2030. I support the objective, but believe they have no chance of achieving such as they have not factored in external effects or the fact that our economy does wax and wain over ~8 year cycles. I suspect that the deficit will either still be with us in 2022 or taxes will have increased in order to bring it down. Any further borrowing to fuel current consumption would be highly immoral.


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Tigger
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RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:28 PM
Affa
Jan 27 2015, 05:17 PM
RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:02 PM
Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:45 AM
It is totally false to promise a debt free, deficit free, economy that delivers prosperity and higher living standards when it is not attainable in any time soon, in the next decade - if ever!

It certainly is deliverable within a decade. I

When even Osborne is assuring us that it will be a few years yet before the deficit is gone - meantime he just has to keep right on borrowing - increasing the debt, increasing interest payments, (Will the rates be subject to an increase if the rest put up rates?).
I don't see the debt being gone in thirty years - our grandkids certainly do have a legacy.
Oh; and nobody will be more surprised than you if George does manage to balance the books in 2018-19 as forecast.



The Tories proposals are to reduce the deficit to a negative one by 2020 and holding it there until such time as the mountain of debt is reduced to an acceptable level of ~40% of GDP in about 2030. I support the objective, but believe they have no chance of achieving such as they have not factored in external effects or the fact that our economy does wax and wain over ~8 year cycles. I suspect that the deficit will either still be with us in 2022 or taxes will have increased in order to bring it down. Any further borrowing to fuel current consumption would be highly immoral.


This is bunk and you know it.

With all the governments talk about balanced budgets and the much needed rebalancing of the economy nothing of the sort has even remotely happened, four years ago we were told we had to be more like the Germans, ie fiscally responsible, that didn't last long did it? Because that would mean a move away from money shuffling, housing bubbles and asset prices propped up by the taxpayer, and guess what? Borrowing up, the finance sector up to it's old tricks again by plying easy credit and rampant house price inflation in full swing once again, I wonder what the real rate of "growth" would be if you stripped out these valueless speculative gains?

Thank you George Osborne you useless turd for repeating all the errors of the past.
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Affa
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George's idea for making the UK "the best place to do business" is having the lowest wages and the lowest taxes on business.
He needs Austerity to continue to achieve that, needs the deficit in order to tell us that the pain must continue. None of what he tells is true, least of all his pledge to balance the economy. That would signal an end to austerity and he doesn't want any of that.

#Oh; btw ........ did you know that a four year apprenticeship will qualify for a £30k salary (Cameron).


Edited by Affa, Jan 27 2015, 10:28 PM.
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Rich
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Affa
Jan 27 2015, 11:41 AM
Short-term solutions invariably result in a repeat of the problem.
It is short therm 'popularist' measures that have dogged UK economic progress in the past, and do so now.

Perhaps a full term of office should be extended to 10 years in order for long term plans to be put in place and enacted, regardless which party wins.
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Rich
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Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 01:27 PM
What the hell are you babbling on about now ffs? ;D

Ten year plans, communism and Labour all nicely juxtaposed to give off some air of doom! The problem in the UK is long term planning is almost unheard of due to the instability of what is laughingly called the free market. A Chinese finance minister two of three years ago claimed that China was largely unconcerned with volatile stock markets and the anal obsession with every minute change of fortune, no, he said they were looking ten to twenty years ahead and that was what the government was planning for and working towards, control of your own destiny is what China plans for, completely unthinkable in an increasingly unstable and financially incompetent West.

In the past the "markets" have said that 10% annual growth in China was dangerous but then when it dropped to 6% a full blown recession was on the way! Growth then went back up to 7% and the economy was overheating. The markets are frankly bollocks!
How often does the government in China change?
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Rich
Senior Member
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krugerman
Jan 27 2015, 04:32 PM
Tytoalba
Jan 27 2015, 11:29 AM
The Labour party and Millband have introduced another ten year soviet style plan into their election manifesto, now with a ten year plan for the NHS and social security
I seem to remember they made similar 10 year plans in the past prior to other elections, with the Railways coming to mind, but I believe there were others, so here they go again, with their Soviet style 10 year Manana plans for the future that will be forgotten in the future when they are not achieved.
Not today, not tomorrow, not next month or year, but always in the distant future.
Promises, promises , promises. Manana, Manana, Manana, but nothing for today.

But I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
The only vague similarity to the old Soviet 5 year plans is that its called "a plan" and its a plan which is spread over a period of years, but thats as far as any similarity goes, and its not really odd, strange or unusual to have a plan is it ?, after all, most governments have plans, businesses have plans.

The present government had a "5 year plan" to wipe out our deficit, it was a plan set out to the nation in July 2010, but its a failed plan.

This particular thread, together with its title and opening post is an utterly pathetic attempt to associate Ed Miliband and the Labour Party with old fashioned and outdated Soviet socialist ideas and policies, its really rather childish.

Our National Health Service needs a plan, it needs more doctors and nurses to create the conditions to give more time and care to patients, to reduce the unacceptable length of time it now takes to get a doctors appointment, to put a stop people waiting in queuing ambulances at A&E, and to halt the fragmenting of services which is what is now happening.

The NHS is thankfully the number 1 election issue, and as we all know, the NHS has deteriorated in the last 5 years, just as it always does when the Tories are in power.
Lets suppose that all of a sudden we have another 10 thousand doctors and nurses, right, where shall we put the patients so that we can treat them, oh yes, lets build more corridors and more trolleys to lay the patients on whilst they wait to be treated.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with, so, one does either of two things, build new and bigger hospitals or stop any more bods coming into this country, I would just add that building bigger capacity motorways leads to more and more traffic using them, the same will apply to the NHS.
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Tigger
Senior Member
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Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:35 PM
Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 01:27 PM
What the hell are you babbling on about now ffs? ;D

Ten year plans, communism and Labour all nicely juxtaposed to give off some air of doom! The problem in the UK is long term planning is almost unheard of due to the instability of what is laughingly called the free market. A Chinese finance minister two of three years ago claimed that China was largely unconcerned with volatile stock markets and the anal obsession with every minute change of fortune, no, he said they were looking ten to twenty years ahead and that was what the government was planning for and working towards, control of your own destiny is what China plans for, completely unthinkable in an increasingly unstable and financially incompetent West.

In the past the "markets" have said that 10% annual growth in China was dangerous but then when it dropped to 6% a full blown recession was on the way! Growth then went back up to 7% and the economy was overheating. The markets are frankly bollocks!
How often does the government in China change?
And what has that got to do with anything?

Apart from the fact they do not have to try and bribe the electorate with it's own money every five years because most voters are to thick to think ahead.
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krugerman
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Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
krugerman
Jan 27 2015, 04:32 PM
Tytoalba
Jan 27 2015, 11:29 AM
The Labour party and Millband have introduced another ten year soviet style plan into their election manifesto, now with a ten year plan for the NHS and social security
I seem to remember they made similar 10 year plans in the past prior to other elections, with the Railways coming to mind, but I believe there were others, so here they go again, with their Soviet style 10 year Manana plans for the future that will be forgotten in the future when they are not achieved.
Not today, not tomorrow, not next month or year, but always in the distant future.
Promises, promises , promises. Manana, Manana, Manana, but nothing for today.

But I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
The only vague similarity to the old Soviet 5 year plans is that its called "a plan" and its a plan which is spread over a period of years, but thats as far as any similarity goes, and its not really odd, strange or unusual to have a plan is it ?, after all, most governments have plans, businesses have plans.

The present government had a "5 year plan" to wipe out our deficit, it was a plan set out to the nation in July 2010, but its a failed plan.

This particular thread, together with its title and opening post is an utterly pathetic attempt to associate Ed Miliband and the Labour Party with old fashioned and outdated Soviet socialist ideas and policies, its really rather childish.

Our National Health Service needs a plan, it needs more doctors and nurses to create the conditions to give more time and care to patients, to reduce the unacceptable length of time it now takes to get a doctors appointment, to put a stop people waiting in queuing ambulances at A&E, and to halt the fragmenting of services which is what is now happening.

The NHS is thankfully the number 1 election issue, and as we all know, the NHS has deteriorated in the last 5 years, just as it always does when the Tories are in power.
Lets suppose that all of a sudden we have another 10 thousand doctors and nurses, right, where shall we put the patients so that we can treat them, oh yes, lets build more corridors and more trolleys to lay the patients on whilst they wait to be treated.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with, so, one does either of two things, build new and bigger hospitals or stop any more bods coming into this country, I would just add that building bigger capacity motorways leads to more and more traffic using them, the same will apply to the NHS.
Sorry but your reasoning here is ilogical

We have a problem - the problem is that not enough patients are been seen to quickly enough, or cared for quickly enough, and that care is often rushed, staff are under immense pressure, the time it takes to get to see your GP has shot up, ambulance response times and the availability of ambulances is not good.

But yet some posters say that more resources, investment, more doctors or nurses is not the answer, sorry but I really dont understand, this would be rather like the British army been overwhelmed by an enemy, and then someone saying that more resources, men and equipment is not the answer............what ?

So if more staff and more resources is NOT the answer, what is ?, bearing in mind that that many many staff are at breaking point, perhaps that "other" old Tory excuse of "efficiency" could be wheeled out, make the staff work even longer, just like the good old Tory days of the 1980s when A&E staff frequently worked 80 hours per week, and when doctors regularly fell asleep on the job.

Why cannot you face up to reality instead of simply making excuses
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papasmurf
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Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with,
What would free up a lot of beds is to sort the bed blocking problem out. Combining hospital care with after care budgets so a holistic look can be taken a each case.
Many bed blockers could be shifted merely by fairly cheap modifications to their homes, like 1/4 turn taps, hand rails, and similar. (Compared to the cost of the bed blocking even having a bathroom/toilet modified would cost less than two weeks bed blocking.)
That coupled with home visits by carers/nurse when necessary could impact the bed blocking problem in a very short time and save money as well.
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Affa
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Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM


Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with, so, one does either of two things, build new and bigger hospitals or stop any more bods coming into this country, I would just add that building bigger capacity motorways leads to more and more traffic using them, the same will apply to the NHS.

Been drinking?
Sure easing the pressures on the NHS would go some way to restoring it to proper service, but let's deal with what is and not what we'd wish for eh.

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Tytoalba
Senior Member
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papasmurf
Jan 28 2015, 10:23 AM
Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with,
What would free up a lot of beds is to sort the bed blocking problem out. Combining hospital care with after care budgets so a holistic look can be taken a each case.
Many bed blockers could be shifted merely by fairly cheap modifications to their homes, like 1/4 turn taps, hand rails, and similar. (Compared to the cost of the bed blocking even having a bathroom/toilet modified would cost less than two weeks bed blocking.)
That coupled with home visits by carers/nurse when necessary could impact the bed blocking problem in a very short time and save money as well.
Hospital care costs the councils nothing, so it is to their advantage to keep them there and not be paid for from the rates or the social service budget
Once certified to leave the daily charge should be passed on to the patient and the council. That should focus minds.
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RJD
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Prudence and Thrift
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Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 07:11 PM
RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:28 PM
Affa
Jan 27 2015, 05:17 PM
RJD
Jan 27 2015, 05:02 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep

When even Osborne is assuring us that it will be a few years yet before the deficit is gone - meantime he just has to keep right on borrowing - increasing the debt, increasing interest payments, (Will the rates be subject to an increase if the rest put up rates?).
I don't see the debt being gone in thirty years - our grandkids certainly do have a legacy.
Oh; and nobody will be more surprised than you if George does manage to balance the books in 2018-19 as forecast.



The Tories proposals are to reduce the deficit to a negative one by 2020 and holding it there until such time as the mountain of debt is reduced to an acceptable level of ~40% of GDP in about 2030. I support the objective, but believe they have no chance of achieving such as they have not factored in external effects or the fact that our economy does wax and wain over ~8 year cycles. I suspect that the deficit will either still be with us in 2022 or taxes will have increased in order to bring it down. Any further borrowing to fuel current consumption would be highly immoral.


This is bunk and you know it.

With all the governments talk about balanced budgets and the much needed rebalancing of the economy nothing of the sort has even remotely happened, four years ago we were told we had to be more like the Germans, ie fiscally responsible, that didn't last long did it? Because that would mean a move away from money shuffling, housing bubbles and asset prices propped up by the taxpayer, and guess what? Borrowing up, the finance sector up to it's old tricks again by plying easy credit and rampant house price inflation in full swing once again, I wonder what the real rate of "growth" would be if you stripped out these valueless speculative gains?

Thank you George Osborne you useless turd for repeating all the errors of the past.
The sort of hypocritical response one has learned to expect from those that support no reductions in State spending.

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RJD
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krugerman
Jan 28 2015, 10:13 AM
Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
krugerman
Jan 27 2015, 04:32 PM
Tytoalba
Jan 27 2015, 11:29 AM
The Labour party and Millband have introduced another ten year soviet style plan into their election manifesto, now with a ten year plan for the NHS and social security
I seem to remember they made similar 10 year plans in the past prior to other elections, with the Railways coming to mind, but I believe there were others, so here they go again, with their Soviet style 10 year Manana plans for the future that will be forgotten in the future when they are not achieved.
Not today, not tomorrow, not next month or year, but always in the distant future.
Promises, promises , promises. Manana, Manana, Manana, but nothing for today.

But I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
And that's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
The only vague similarity to the old Soviet 5 year plans is that its called "a plan" and its a plan which is spread over a period of years, but thats as far as any similarity goes, and its not really odd, strange or unusual to have a plan is it ?, after all, most governments have plans, businesses have plans.

The present government had a "5 year plan" to wipe out our deficit, it was a plan set out to the nation in July 2010, but its a failed plan.

This particular thread, together with its title and opening post is an utterly pathetic attempt to associate Ed Miliband and the Labour Party with old fashioned and outdated Soviet socialist ideas and policies, its really rather childish.

Our National Health Service needs a plan, it needs more doctors and nurses to create the conditions to give more time and care to patients, to reduce the unacceptable length of time it now takes to get a doctors appointment, to put a stop people waiting in queuing ambulances at A&E, and to halt the fragmenting of services which is what is now happening.

The NHS is thankfully the number 1 election issue, and as we all know, the NHS has deteriorated in the last 5 years, just as it always does when the Tories are in power.
Lets suppose that all of a sudden we have another 10 thousand doctors and nurses, right, where shall we put the patients so that we can treat them, oh yes, lets build more corridors and more trolleys to lay the patients on whilst they wait to be treated.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with, so, one does either of two things, build new and bigger hospitals or stop any more bods coming into this country, I would just add that building bigger capacity motorways leads to more and more traffic using them, the same will apply to the NHS.
Sorry but your reasoning here is ilogical

We have a problem - the problem is that not enough patients are been seen to quickly enough, or cared for quickly enough, and that care is often rushed, staff are under immense pressure, the time it takes to get to see your GP has shot up, ambulance response times and the availability of ambulances is not good.

But yet some posters say that more resources, investment, more doctors or nurses is not the answer, sorry but I really dont understand, this would be rather like the British army been overwhelmed by an enemy, and then someone saying that more resources, men and equipment is not the answer............what ?

So if more staff and more resources is NOT the answer, what is ?, bearing in mind that that many many staff are at breaking point, perhaps that "other" old Tory excuse of "efficiency" could be wheeled out, make the staff work even longer, just like the good old Tory days of the 1980s when A&E staff frequently worked 80 hours per week, and when doctors regularly fell asleep on the job.

Why cannot you face up to reality instead of simply making excuses
No just smarter with less overmanning.

Really is amusing that the Usuals claim that this Gov. is privatising the NHS when they point their fingers at an increase of ~1.5% from the ~4.2% portion of outsourcing under the last lot. Sounds and smells like conspiracy theorists gone mad.
Clearly Labour are seeking to weaponise the NHS for own selfish political advantage with zero thought of what this might mean for patients. Andy Burnham made a fool of himself last night and demonstrated that Labour is all bluster with no substance. He like many others just hate the market, hate capitalism, in the old days they would have been proud to proclaim themselves as Marxists, but today they seek to hide that from view.



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Affa
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RJD
Jan 28 2015, 12:00 PM
The sort of hypocritical response one has learned to expect from those that support no reductions in State spending.


Is there anyone that actually does hold this 'no spending cuts' idea for getting public finances back on track?
Either you are confused or just plain nasty ......... I have my opinion on which it is.

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Affa
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RJD
Jan 28 2015, 12:07 PM
No just smarter with less overmanning.

There are set levels of staffing on wards, the required number of patients per nursing staff - a bed shortage is when there are not enough nurses and so wards remain closed.
To pretend there is overmanning on the wards is yet another falsity - done because the argument is lost.

Why Privatise the NHS - and what would a Privatised NHS look like, better or worse?

Bear in mind that the argument for privatisation arises because it is said that the NHS is unaffordable, that it cannot cope with current demands.
How will privatisation address those issues?



Edited by Affa, Jan 28 2015, 12:21 PM.
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krugerman
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No just smarter with less overmanning.

Are you completely out of your mind ?, A&E departments are not over-manned, if there were more emergency beds, more doctors and nurses in our A&E departments, there would not be the queues and long waiting times that we currently have.

And one of the major causes of the current problems, is the cuts to social care, nowhere for patients to be discharged to, blocking up beds.


Really is amusing that the Usuals claim that this Gov. is privatising the NHS when they point their fingers at an increase of ~1.5% from the ~4.2% portion of outsourcing under the last lot. Sounds and smells like conspiracy theorists gone mad.

At no time did the previous government take medical care provision away from the NHS and put it out to tender to profiteers, what they did do was supplement NHS provision with the private sector, outside of the NHS, in order to alleviate the pressure on waiting times and waiting lists.
The current government is actually taking healthcare away from the state sector and giving it to the profit makers of their buddies in the private sector - something that Labour would never do.

Clearly Labour are seeking to weaponise the NHS for own selfish political advantage with zero thought of what this might mean for patients. Andy Burnham made a fool of himself last night and demonstrated that Labour is all bluster with no substance. He like many others just hate the market, hate capitalism, in the old days they would have been proud to proclaim themselves as Marxists, but today they seek to hide that from view.

The Labour Party are representing the views of almost the entire workforce of the NHS from the Royal College of Psychiatrists to the Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association, every professional body, and also (according to opinion polls) the majority of the British public.

No one wanted this huge reorganisation, no one believes it to be necessary, the public do not want medical care and provision handed to private companies, people want the NHS to remain a state funded and state run health service, the Labour Party are with the majority view.

The NHS is in a poorer state now than 5 years ago, people are now waiting longer to see their GP, longer to get into A&E, and its quicker and more reliable to order a pizza delivery than it is to call 999 for an ambulance; We have seen the longest period of negligible funding in the history of the NHS, and even these figures are fiddled.

I am so pleased the NHS is the number 1 issue as we move towards the election


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Steve K
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papasmurf
Jan 28 2015, 10:23 AM
Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with,
What would free up a lot of beds is to sort the bed blocking problem out. Combining hospital care with after care budgets so a holistic look can be taken a each case.
Many bed blockers could be shifted merely by fairly cheap modifications to their homes, like 1/4 turn taps, hand rails, and similar. (Compared to the cost of the bed blocking even having a bathroom/toilet modified would cost less than two weeks bed blocking.)
That coupled with home visits by carers/nurse when necessary could impact the bed blocking problem in a very short time and save money as well.
Certainly that ^ should be looked at.

I would guess that some might resist having their homes so modified as it might reduce its appeal to family who might have their eyes on same (or the proceeds from sale). Tough, they should be made to accept such.

What Milliband was saying this week about improving home visits would help to. Our experience of how they serve a patient is they are very short, utterly disorganised and too often deliver the treatment that has specifically been ruled as inappropriate and causes harm.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 28 2015, 05:35 PM


I would guess that some might resist having their homes so modified as it might reduce its appeal to family who might have their eyes on same (or the proceeds from sale).
Oh for (expletive deleted) sake. It is not £thousands or major mods, 1/4 turn taps just fit into the tap body that is already there, take about 2 minutes a tap and costs less than £10 each.
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C-too
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Oddball
Jan 27 2015, 04:56 PM
The Soviets were more into the idea of '5-Year Plans', but as Rabbie Burns might have said, they 'gang aft agley'.
Like the Conservative 5 year plan to sort out the deficit ;D
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Jan 28 2015, 05:39 PM
Steve K
Jan 28 2015, 05:35 PM


I would guess that some might resist having their homes so modified as it might reduce its appeal to family who might have their eyes on same (or the proceeds from sale).
Oh for (expletive deleted) sake. It is not £thousands or major mods, 1/4 turn taps just fit into the tap body that is already there, take about 2 minutes a tap and costs less than £10 each.
 ::) So even when someone essentially agrees with you you lash out at them? Bizarre.

What do you think it does to a property's value if it has been converted to have disabled toilets as you wished for?

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C-too
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I would like to see a pie chart for the distribution of wealth in the UK.

And another for distribution of wealth by country.

I'm sure they would be quite interesting.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 28 2015, 05:46 PM


What do you think it does to a property's value if it has been converted to have disabled toilets as you wished for?

Currently it would increase the value. (You use of the term "disabled toilet" does make it obvious you have some out of date preconceived ideas.)
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Jan 28 2015, 08:06 PM
Steve K
Jan 28 2015, 05:46 PM


What do you think it does to a property's value if it has been converted to have disabled toilets as you wished for?

Currently it would increase the value. (You use of the term "disabled toilet" does make it obvious you have some out of date preconceived ideas.)
maybe in Cornwall but as a rule any modification to a house that makes it unusual without increasing floor area reduces its value

And a piece of advice, if you're going to throw insults make them decent ones

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papasmurf
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Steve K
Jan 28 2015, 08:39 PM
maybe in Cornwall but as a rule any modification to a house that makes it unusual
1/4 turn taps, and a few hand grips here and there is not modifying a house, and that is all most bedblockers would need.
A FULLY modified house for a disabled person would sell very quickly because demand outstrips supply.
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Rich
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Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 10:48 PM
Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:35 PM
Tigger
Jan 27 2015, 01:27 PM
What the hell are you babbling on about now ffs? ;D

Ten year plans, communism and Labour all nicely juxtaposed to give off some air of doom! The problem in the UK is long term planning is almost unheard of due to the instability of what is laughingly called the free market. A Chinese finance minister two of three years ago claimed that China was largely unconcerned with volatile stock markets and the anal obsession with every minute change of fortune, no, he said they were looking ten to twenty years ahead and that was what the government was planning for and working towards, control of your own destiny is what China plans for, completely unthinkable in an increasingly unstable and financially incompetent West.

In the past the "markets" have said that 10% annual growth in China was dangerous but then when it dropped to 6% a full blown recession was on the way! Growth then went back up to 7% and the economy was overheating. The markets are frankly bollocks!
How often does the government in China change?
And what has that got to do with anything?

Apart from the fact they do not have to try and bribe the electorate with it's own money every five years because most voters are to thick to think ahead.
No, they just run people over with tanks when they voice their concerns.
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Tigger
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RJD
Jan 28 2015, 12:07 PM
krugerman
Jan 28 2015, 10:13 AM
Rich
Jan 27 2015, 10:44 PM
krugerman
Jan 27 2015, 04:32 PM

Quoting limited to 4 levels deep
Lets suppose that all of a sudden we have another 10 thousand doctors and nurses, right, where shall we put the patients so that we can treat them, oh yes, lets build more corridors and more trolleys to lay the patients on whilst they wait to be treated.

Do you not get it, there are too many bods in this country that require treatment than the bed capacity of hospitals can cope with, so, one does either of two things, build new and bigger hospitals or stop any more bods coming into this country, I would just add that building bigger capacity motorways leads to more and more traffic using them, the same will apply to the NHS.
Sorry but your reasoning here is ilogical

We have a problem - the problem is that not enough patients are been seen to quickly enough, or cared for quickly enough, and that care is often rushed, staff are under immense pressure, the time it takes to get to see your GP has shot up, ambulance response times and the availability of ambulances is not good.

But yet some posters say that more resources, investment, more doctors or nurses is not the answer, sorry but I really dont understand, this would be rather like the British army been overwhelmed by an enemy, and then someone saying that more resources, men and equipment is not the answer............what ?

So if more staff and more resources is NOT the answer, what is ?, bearing in mind that that many many staff are at breaking point, perhaps that "other" old Tory excuse of "efficiency" could be wheeled out, make the staff work even longer, just like the good old Tory days of the 1980s when A&E staff frequently worked 80 hours per week, and when doctors regularly fell asleep on the job.

Why cannot you face up to reality instead of simply making excuses
No just smarter with less overmanning.

Really is amusing that the Usuals claim that this Gov. is privatising the NHS when they point their fingers at an increase of ~1.5% from the ~4.2% portion of outsourcing under the last lot. Sounds and smells like conspiracy theorists gone mad.
Clearly Labour are seeking to weaponise the NHS for own selfish political advantage with zero thought of what this might mean for patients. Andy Burnham made a fool of himself last night and demonstrated that Labour is all bluster with no substance. He like many others just hate the market, hate capitalism, in the old days they would have been proud to proclaim themselves as Marxists, but today they seek to hide that from view.



Investment grade twattery. !clp!

Ignore the fact that we are running short of GP's, midwives ans assorted skilled clinicians (many cite poor money) and just impose market forces and make the remainder work harder, in addition get them to assemble widgets for a local factory in their lunch time. that'll sort the bloody socialists out!

Pop into your local hospital and get that dogma removed from your backside, and soon.

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