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| What is Labour for? | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 30 2015, 08:21 AM (3,076 Views) | |
| RJD | Jan 30 2015, 08:21 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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LINK It has to be asked, what are Labour for if it is going to match the Tory budget programme? They now promise to stick to current Coalition plans so what are the offering? Maybe they think they can offer an experienced Management Team that can stimulate the economy and hold a tighter grip on State spending? Makes one want to laugh. Let's get real, without a programme of increases in State expenditure coupled with a programme of social engineering to make us fit their mould there is absolutely no point in Labour. |
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| HIGHWAY | Jan 31 2015, 08:52 AM Post #41 |
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So no Labour or Libs who got rich fiddling there expenses count in your mind |
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| Lewis | Jan 31 2015, 09:22 AM Post #42 |
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Well at least no Labour MPs put in claims for floating duck housed like Vigger's claimed for. Then Giddie claimed mortgage expenses by circa £100,000. |
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| Tigger | Jan 31 2015, 11:17 AM Post #43 |
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Why are the wealthy so addicted to self entitlement? This is a question Labour will actually ask and the Conservatives will not. Only then is there any hope of rebalancing the economy. And no it is not the politics of envy, I see it day in and day out and frequently meet it face to face. |
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| jaguar | Jan 31 2015, 12:23 PM Post #44 |
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Regular Member
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Why is it that only Labour MPs have been found guilty of expenses fraud? Not a single one is Tory, Lib Dem or from one of the nationalist parties. All six are Labour. The Labour party may take the moral high ground, but lying and cheating are deep in its DNA |
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| johnofgwent | Jan 31 2015, 01:10 PM Post #45 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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It couldn't POSSIBLY be because the trials began under a conservative / lib dem coalition, using rules (oh sorry, GUIDELINES) imposed on the DPP by that government ... or possibly that the said DPP fancies a gong and a nice cushy job in a few years time courtesy of prime ministerial patronage, could it ? Perish the thought ... |
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| Tytoalba | Jan 31 2015, 01:23 PM Post #46 |
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Its a pity Greece and Spain didn't, and did not start to do so when our Government decided to do so on our behalf. All debt has to be paid off one way or another, so it is best not to incur it with impossible dreams Be thankful that we are now on the right side of common sense with some practical reality. The reason the labour leadership is in such a mess is because they promise to maintain the austerity programme , and spend more at the same time. |
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| krugerman | Jan 31 2015, 01:30 PM Post #47 |
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I would say you can sum up what Labour are for in just one simple sentence "Labour are here to do the same as the Conservatives, govern the country, except in a fairer way" And that s it in a nutshell |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 01:34 PM Post #48 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Tig: Why are the wealthy so addicted to self entitlement? This is a question Labour will actually ask and the Conservatives will not. Only then is there any hope of rebalancing the economy. You better show some evidence of this as I thought the opposite was the truth. Conservatives believe in work whereas Labour believe in welfare. Looking forward to seeing some proof of your claims,. Tig: And no it is not the politics of envy, I see it day in and day out and frequently meet it face to face. Then you should have no difficulty is describing exactly what it is that you witness. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 01:42 PM Post #49 |
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As long as someone else is doing it, and are on low wages. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 01:44 PM Post #50 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Here we go again with that subjective and emotional word "fairer". I hear the rhetoric, but would love to see some hard examples. Me I am not interested in the fairness twaddle, I just want a Gov. that gets us good value for Taxpayers money for the delivery of quality State services, if they earn the reputation of being tough, nasty, uncaring with the mindless minions then who gives a sh1t? You see I know that money wasted due to inefficiency or even a lack of need, actually kills other peoples job prospects and attenuates the amount of real wealth that can be generated in the economy. Yes we can all wear our hearts on our sleeves and pretend we really care, but it takes toughness to deliver real improvements. Problem is that the Red Nag Myth Factory has persuaded many that improvements can be easily obtained by picking another persons pocket. Increasing spending this on State services is no guarantee of improvements in performance or quality, as we have seen with the NHS. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 01:52 PM Post #51 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Rubbish you cannot make money out of people with poor educations and no skills. All you are doping is keeping these people off the streets. The UK needs to produce many more jobs creating higher amounts of added value and the people you mention are not suited to such work. If you bother to inform yourself of the structure of adding value then you will find that the Lifters and Shifters and the end of the process, a highly automated one, add little of significance. So the question really is "how are we going to get the legions of poorly educated with zero skills off the streets and into some kind of job"? You need to get real Mr Smurf, the main reason why the low paid are paid low wages is that there is significantly more of them than jobs available and they have little that is special to offer an Employer. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 01:53 PM Post #52 |
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I would like you to explain what is fair about deliberately attacking poor and vulnerable people as a policy as the Tories have been doing since May 2010. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 01:59 PM Post #53 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I would first like to see you demonstrate where and when the attacks took place. You use emotive words to make your claims. Anyway I am really not interested in feeding your addiction to conspiracy. |
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| krugerman | Jan 31 2015, 02:12 PM Post #54 |
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Some hard examples ? Well let us take for example "The Bedroom Tax" This is something that a Labour government would never have introduced because it is unfair, and it is also something which the Liberal Democrats feel very uncomfortable about, because they know deep down that they would not have introduced it, and they know it is unfair. Why is it unfair ? Well let us begin by saying, ok we all agree that a couple with one child should not be living in a 3 bedroom home, and a single person should not be living in a 2 or 3 bedroom home. So the answer is - when you next move house, you will be informed that you cannot expect housing benefit to be based upon anything other than your needs, but the Bedroom Tax has not been implemented like this, it is crippling low paid people, and it is causing severe hardship to working people, sending some into poverty. In many area s there simply is no smaller dwellings, many thousands of people are stuck, hit by the Bedroom Tax, no place to go, nowhere to turn. This is but one simple example of the unfairness we have come to expect from the Conservatives, the same political party that opposed the National Minimum Wage, that has made it more difficult to claim unfair dismissal, the Lib Dems made some attempt to back track on the Bedroom Tax, because they could see how unfair it is, and how big the backlash is against it. The term or word "unfairness" is a simple word, its not emotive, its just descriptive and fitting of this government. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 02:26 PM Post #55 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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K: Well let us take for example "The Bedroom Tax". This is something that a Labour government would never have introduced because it is unfair, and it is also something which the Liberal Democrats feel very uncomfortable about, because they know deep down that they would not have introduced it, and they know it is unfair. Why is it unfair ? Well let us begin by saying, ok we all agree that a couple with one child should not be living in a 3 bedroom home, and a single person should not be living in a 2 or 3 bedroom home. Proof from you that in that circumstance the change is not unfair. K: So the answer is - when you next move house, you will be informed that you cannot expect housing benefit to be based upon anything other than your needs, but the Bedroom Tax has not been implemented like this, it is crippling low paid people, and it is causing severe hardship to working people, sending some into poverty. Without a carrot or a stick why would anyone with highly subsidised accommodation want to downsize? You have already accepted that it is not reasonable for individuals to sit on accommodations which are significantly larger than their needs, the question surely is about the methodology to get them to change. Hence your claim that the tax, as you call it, is unfair is unfounded, your criticism is on method. K: In many area s there simply is no smaller dwellings, many thousands of people are stuck, hit by the Bedroom Tax, no place to go, nowhere to turn. As I have said a number of times in the past the change in subsidy is sensible, but timings should be left in the hands of Local Gov., which it mainly is. It certainly is unfair to keep a family in cramped accommodation when a neighbour is enjoying accommodation much greater than his needs. K: This is but one simple example of the unfairness we have come to expect from the Conservatives, the same political party that opposed the National Minimum Wage, that has made it more difficult to claim unfair dismissal, the Lib Dems made some attempt to back track on the Bedroom Tax, because they could see how unfair it is, and how big the backlash is against it. K: The term or word "unfairness" is a simple word, its not emotive, its just descriptive and fitting of this government. Not true it is an emotive word when used in such a generalised manner. As for the NMW it has under this Gov. increased faster than inflation. As for the basic tax threshold that has also increased greater than inflation. Are you claiming that as "fair" or "unfair"? Or is it with your dogma you can only see "unfairness"? |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 02:30 PM Post #56 |
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RJD, I have been doing so for over four and a have years, that you refuse to read references is your fault. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 02:32 PM Post #57 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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No you have not. You only think you have and that is your problem and why I will no longer waste my time fuelling your addictions. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 02:35 PM Post #58 |
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I know I have RJD, you are suffering from cognitive dissonance. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 02:43 PM Post #59 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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No intention of feeding your phycological problems, I need to get another coat of pain on the ceiling. |
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| HIGHWAY | Jan 31 2015, 02:47 PM Post #60 |
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Unlike yourself who seems to want everyone on government handouts |
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| Affa | Jan 31 2015, 02:49 PM Post #61 |
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We'd do as well (a bit of a contraction is 'well') if we did away with Parliament and left everything to Whitehall .......... in many ways we already have, but the show must go on and it does require its actors to play the roles on the public stage where the questions are asked, no solutions/answers ever given. We get rhetoric, but not much truth ........ spin and spin until dizziness makes drunks of us all. Edited by Affa, Jan 31 2015, 02:51 PM.
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 02:59 PM Post #62 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Replace "Government Handouts" with living at someone else's expense. Truth is that the UK is, relatively speaking, a generous country towards those that it deserves require some help, but it is bedevilled by an ungrateful bunch of moaners who believe that they are entitled. They are not entitled to anything more than the State decides and it is the responsibility of the State to decide who is deserving of support. The moaners always dress up the situation to appear that they have been deprived of their dues, but they were not such and never will be. It would be a good idea to send a coach load of the moaners to Italy say or even Spain and ask them to try a month sampling the generosity of those countries, then they would develop a completely new perspective of how good things are in Old Blighty. The moaners should also put themselves in the shoes of those that are the givers and wonder why is it that they welcome the welfare reform programme. Claiming it is all a conspiracy is getting to be beyond a joke and one must wonder as to the sanity of those that claim such. |
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| RJD | Jan 31 2015, 03:33 PM Post #63 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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From one of their own: - Dan Hodges Full article For those idiots that subscribe to the view that the message is unimportant and that the Messenger is all that matters please note that this article is in The Daily Telegraph, so avoid it and stick with your dogma. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 03:38 PM Post #64 |
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I want nothing of the kind RJD, I have made myself VERY clear about that. I want everyone who can work in work, but I don't want them working for peanuts. |
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| Steve K | Jan 31 2015, 03:45 PM Post #65 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yes you have made that clear several times, RJD was taking your defence of those on benefits too far. But a question: you say "I want everyone who can work in work, but I don't want them working for peanuts." So if someone could be either Out of Work or Working for Peanuts which would you prefer them to be in? |
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| Affa | Jan 31 2015, 04:07 PM Post #66 |
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Why only the two options? It appears very defeatist to me. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 04:51 PM Post #67 |
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Neither, in work but not being paid peanuts. |
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| HIGHWAY | Jan 31 2015, 04:53 PM Post #68 |
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How much would you want a low skilled worker to get |
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| C-too | Jan 31 2015, 04:56 PM Post #69 |
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Honourable Member
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I disagree. |
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| C-too | Jan 31 2015, 05:05 PM Post #70 |
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Honourable Member
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It is common sense not dogma that does not want to see the UK health system sink into a two tier system, split into private and public health, with private being the dominant system while the NHS falls into a very secondary underfunded safety net. |
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| papasmurf | Jan 31 2015, 05:07 PM Post #71 |
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Enough so their employer does not have to be subsidised by the government so they can pay low wages. |
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| C-too | Jan 31 2015, 05:20 PM Post #72 |
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Comparing the UK to Greece and Italy shows just how desperate you are to make some sort of rebuttal. It is of course nonsense. Your apparent common sense and practical reality has left the UK needing even heavier cuts and has increased the national debt. Labour want to use growth and cuts as a way forward, this is rubbished by the right-wing because they have always been in favour of cutting welfare regardless of the economic situation. While cuts are a necessity the Tories are taking FULL advantage of the opportunity to do just that. After all if growth had been greater the aggressiveness of their cuts would be less acceptable. |
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| Steve K | Jan 31 2015, 05:36 PM Post #73 |
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Once and future cynic
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That is to duck the question. Shocked I am not
Because sometimes the sun doesn't shine and it is useful to know what people would have as a priority when push comes to shove. A lot of the Labour party and some here would rather have someone unemployed than in work at a low salary. To me it says so much about them. |
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| jaguar | Jan 31 2015, 05:54 PM Post #74 |
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I thought at First this was a joke, Ed Miliband has no coherent policies and is unsuited to lead our country. This is the Daily Mirror, read by most Labour supporters, it goes on to say.
We are doomed I tell you, doomed.
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| C-too | Jan 31 2015, 06:02 PM Post #75 |
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Thank goodness for the Daily Mirror
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| Affa | Jan 31 2015, 06:22 PM Post #76 |
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Substantiate, please. I have have not seen any evidence of it Edited by Affa, Jan 31 2015, 07:23 PM.
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| Tigger | Jan 31 2015, 06:51 PM Post #77 |
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Right back at you. Why do some very wealthy people feel the need to avoid tax? Why do they shamelessly put out their hands when their financial interests are threatened? ie banks, multi nationals etc? How come Supermarkets feel the need to squeeze suppliers almost to the point of destroying them? I'm sure you'll have all the answers for us........... And at my far lower level I used get rather tired of wealthy clients trying to wriggle out of contracts they have signed by insisting that they get some extra work done for free, presumably because they have already spent a small fortune and because of this they seem to imagine you'll throw in a few freebies! These days I simply explain that those doing the work have families to support and mortgages to pay and working for nothing is not an option, I usually then ask the person concerned if they ever work for free. The signed contract is then honoured and additional work if still requested is then priced up for appraisal. Edited by Tigger, Jan 31 2015, 06:54 PM.
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| Tigger | Jan 31 2015, 07:08 PM Post #78 |
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A Labour government that promoted the values that led to the formation of the NHS would have those oh so wonderful free market types shitting their pants and wondering where their next taxpayer subsidised free meal was coming from. Labour would be damned if it did and damned if it didn't by the venal right wing press and media. |
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| C-too | Jan 31 2015, 07:11 PM Post #79 |
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Honourable Member
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Back in the 1960s the SUN was a working mans paper in the 1970s(?) it was bought by Rupert Murdoch. It then began to poison the political thoughts of its readers. It seems that Trinity Mirror that produces the Daily Mirror also produces the Sunday Mail.
Edited by C-too, Jan 31 2015, 07:15 PM.
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| Affa | Jan 31 2015, 07:31 PM Post #80 |
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The first imperative of the State has nothing to do with serving the people ........ ....... it is the 'control the media'. They used to ban books, burn them ..... now they own the publishers. |
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