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Industrial Scale Tax Avoidance
Topic Started: Feb 6 2015, 09:31 AM (305 Views)
papasmurf
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I wonder how the "usual suspects" will justify this coming after the Standard and Poors scandal, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31115174

and the £47 million in donations to the Tories from hedge funds, now this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31147276

6 February 2015 Last updated at 00:11

PwC promoted tax avoidance 'on industrial scale', say MPsBy Brian Milligan

Accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) has been accused of promoting tax avoidance "on an industrial scale", in a report by MPs.

It is said to have helped hundreds of clients cut their corporation tax bills by setting up bases in Luxembourg.

Earlier this week the Archbishop of Canterbury said companies should pay tax wherever they earned their profits.

PwC said it disagreed with the Public Accounts Committee report but added that the tax system was "too complex".

The report was based on an evidence session held in December, at which PwC gave evidence.

"We believe that PricewaterhouseCoopers's activities represent nothing short of the promotion of tax avoidance on an industrial scale," said Margaret Hodge, chairwoman of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC).

Continue reading the main story

Start Quote
Margaret Hodge MP We consider that the evidence that PwC provided to us in January 2013 was misleading.”
End Quote
Margaret Hodge

Chair, Public Accounts Committee

She said PwC had written more than 500 letters to the tax authorities in Luxembourg, on behalf of more than 300 international clients.

The tax avoidance schemes, which are legal, involve companies diverting profits to tax havens like Luxembourg via a series of loans between different parts of the business.

The profits are eventually taxed in that country, but often at tiny rates.

'Positive role'

Shire Pharmaceuticals - based in Basingstoke - was one company said by the MPs to have diverted profits to Luxembourg.

It paid just 0.0156% of its profits to the local tax authority, they said.

The main rate of corporation tax in the UK is 21%.

However Shire said it always complied with tax obligations in the jurisdictions in which it operates.

The MPs also accused PwC of misleading the committee at an earlier hearing.
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RJD
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If they have contravened the Law then send Mr Plod around. If not, then what?

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Steve K
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RJD
Feb 6 2015, 06:37 PM
If they have contravened the Law then send Mr Plod around. If not, then what?

Well they may have. I'm not sure if testimony to parliamentary committees is subject to laws

But even if they haven't then if companies are involved in what the OP calls industrial scale tax avoidance then the law needs to be changed . . . . .

were it not already being changed

And interestingly the bit not featured by PS in the OP quote is that Osborne has done exactly that with the 25% levy on taking profits offshore

as mysteriously missed in the OP
 
The UK government is also in the process of introducing the Diverted Profit Tax, announced by the chancellor, George Osborne in the Autumn Statement.

The tax aims to counter the use of "aggressive tax planning techniques" to divert profits from the UK to low tax jurisdictions.

Profits made after 1 April 2015, and diverted to other countries, will be taxed at 25%.


So a turdagram to PwC directors and a /8/ to Osborne
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Lewis
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Be interesting to see how Apple and Starbucks get round having to pay it?
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The Buccaneer
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Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
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Tigger
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The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
You miss the point here, some of the set ups are so contrived to get round the various laws governing tax that it could well be argued that tax avoidance IS going on, and of course the big accountancy firms have been specialising in helping corporations loot the economy anyway, so if Osborne is really serious he'll firstly target the facilitators of this, which of course he won't because the corrupt Tories are in the back pockets of these people!

Roll on the election...........
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Pro Veritas
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The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
Maybe because PS is smart enough to understand the following:

If we ALL paid what were supposed to pay then we could ALL pay less.

It seems so many Tory supporters aren't clever enough to grasp that.

All The Best
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papasmurf
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The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
I don't need to pass info on tax evaders to HMRC they were handed it on a plate nearly two years ago and have done precisely nothing about it.
I did not need to "find stuff about tax avoidance." I has been a big news item for the last two days.
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Tigger
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papasmurf
Feb 6 2015, 08:54 PM
The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
I don't need to pass info on tax evaders to HMRC they were handed it on a plate nearly two years ago and have done precisely nothing about it.
I did not need to "find stuff about tax avoidance." I has been a big news item for the last two days.
I'd have invited Buccaneer to Google the name David Hartnett and examine the cosy relationship between HMRC, the government and big business. ;-)

This country at times comes across as a temperate banana republic.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Feb 6 2015, 08:54 PM
The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
I don't need to pass info on tax evaders to HMRC they were handed it on a plate nearly two years ago and have done precisely nothing about it. . . . .
Utter bollocks ^

Do you not read the papers over the last years about all the celebs having to cough up?

But then you were the one that didn't read properly about the Lagarde list in the first place (it was all about Greeks evading tax in Greece which is why the UK did not do too much about it)
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 09:06 PM


Do you not read the papers over the last years about all the celebs having to cough up?
That is peanuts. Not one of the £multi-billion tax evaders has been touched yet. (Ecclestone came close but close is not good enough.)
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Feb 6 2015, 09:09 PM
Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 09:06 PM


Do you not read the papers over the last years about all the celebs having to cough up?
That is peanuts. Not one of the £multi-billion tax evaders has been touched yet. (Ecclestone came close but close is not good enough.)
You mean the people on that Lagarde/Falciani list that were all Greek and only owed money in Greece?

http://www.businessinsider.com/lagarde-list-of-swiss-bank-accounts-leaked-2012-10?IR=T

Quote:
 
The list contains the names of 1,991 Greeks with bank accounts at HSBC's Geneva branch, and it got its name after Christine Lagarde gave it to former Greek finance minister Giorgos Papakonstantinou in 2010.

The list has been kept secret by the Greek government ever since.

Lately, the question of whether or not the accounts have been used by wealthy Greeks to evade taxes while its country is in dire fiscal shape has generated a political firestorm.


We did this on the old site. Yes there was a list with UK names on it but many were the same person relisted over and over again with nothing more incriminating than they had at one time been employees of companies that had traded using the Geneva bank. Jeez I could be on the list as I've signed company cheques to Swiss firms.

In prosecutable terms it was utter bollocks.

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papasmurf
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 10:29 PM
You mean the people on that Lagarde/Falciani list that were all Greek and only owed money in Greece?


No.
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Steve K
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Well lets have a link to your list then
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 10:34 PM
Well lets have a link to your list then
I don't have a list, but the 80 or so, £multi-billion tax evaders is known to HMRC. (I am NOT going over this ground again given how much of an airing this has had recently in the media and various official reports.)
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Steve K
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Yes of course you work at HMRC don't you.

We did this on the old site, there was no substance to your claims.
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papasmurf
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:06 PM
Yes of course you work at HMRC don't you.

We did this on the old site, there was no substance to your claims.
The problem with HMRC is the cosiness of the previous head civil servant with the major tax evaders.
What you think I really could not care less, because there is more evidence on a near daily basis, with still no action by Osborne, when other nations are addressing the issue.
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Steve K
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You always use evasion to describe avoidance and you were shown today how Osborne very much has taken action on avoidance

The infamous Dave Hartnett was doing his dodgy deals before the Coalition were elected but yes this government isn't clean. They should have said to Deloitte you can employ him but we will never deal with you again while he is in your employ nor trust anything you submit on behalf of a client.
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Tigger
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:57 PM
You always use evasion to describe avoidance and you were shown today how Osborne very much has taken action on avoidance

The infamous Dave Hartnett was doing his dodgy deals before the Coalition were elected but yes this government isn't clean. They should have said to Deloitte you can employ him but we will never deal with you again while he is in your employ nor trust anything you submit on behalf of a client.
Deloitte's are major donors to the Tory party, so zero chance of anything you propose.

Complacent corruption is now commonplace in our society, business people never give money away to others with power without expecting a return.
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Affa
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Do todays figures from the Treasury estimating the amount of unpaid tax from avoidance (and evasion) reveal a significant reduction in either?

Other figures for lost VAT revenue, NI contributions, and tobacco taxes amount to enough to present George with his required deficit reduction figure - alas we have Austerity instead.

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Rich
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papasmurf
Feb 6 2015, 11:26 PM
Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:06 PM
Yes of course you work at HMRC don't you.

We did this on the old site, there was no substance to your claims.
The problem with HMRC is the cosiness of the previous head civil servant with the major tax evaders.
What you think I really could not care less, because there is more evidence on a near daily basis, with still no action by Osborne, when other nations are addressing the issue.
Papa, evasion can only be dealt with effectively by a collective method, if other European countries do not subscribe to dealing with evasion then the cause is lost.
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Rich
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Rich
Feb 7 2015, 01:04 AM
papasmurf
Feb 6 2015, 11:26 PM
Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:06 PM
Yes of course you work at HMRC don't you.

We did this on the old site, there was no substance to your claims.
The problem with HMRC is the cosiness of the previous head civil servant with the major tax evaders.
What you think I really could not care less, because there is more evidence on a near daily basis, with still no action by Osborne, when other nations are addressing the issue.
Papa, evasion can only be dealt with effectively by a collective method, if other European countries do not subscribe to dealing with evasion then the cause is lost.
Here are yet other opinions, for instance listen to the views of the Nigerian finance minister, the report begins at (I think) at 01.10 hrs, the rest is ongoing as we communicate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4
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Affa
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Rich
Feb 7 2015, 01:04 AM

Papa, evasion can only be dealt with effectively by a collective method, if other European countries do not subscribe to dealing with evasion then the cause is lost.

That's not true, is another of these excuse reasons to do nothing.

It's on the same page as Corporation taxes drive business out of the country, Taxing the rich forces them out of the country.

Of course there are examples of some shipping out, the Connery's, the LA set, but that isn't proof of the claim.
It should be obvious, the money earned here pays taxes here ...... and nobody is going to pass up making a lot of money just to avoid paying tax. That'd be stupid.

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papasmurf
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Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:57 PM
You always use evasion to describe avoidance and you were shown today how Osborne very much has taken action on avoidance

When I state evasion I mean evasion. That both Osborne and Ed Miliband rarely mention it is frankly a worry.
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Steve K
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papasmurf
Feb 7 2015, 02:50 PM
Steve K
Feb 6 2015, 11:57 PM
You always use evasion to describe avoidance and you were shown today how Osborne very much has taken action on avoidance

When I state evasion I mean evasion. That both Osborne and Ed Miliband rarely mention it is frankly a worry.
Maybe they have the common sense to know that at ~£5B a year there are bigger issues. Like tax avoidance for example.
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RJD
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Tigger
Feb 6 2015, 08:25 PM
The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
You miss the point here, some of the set ups are so contrived to get round the various laws governing tax that it could well be argued that tax avoidance IS going on, and of course the big accountancy firms have been specialising in helping corporations loot the economy anyway, so if Osborne is really serious he'll firstly target the facilitators of this, which of course he won't because the corrupt Tories are in the back pockets of these people!

Roll on the election...........
Would it not be a good idea if you presented a complete description of the weapons Osborne has at his disposal to target the "facilitators"? I know of no Laws that limit individuals from providing advice on Accountancy matters that are within the Laws of this Land, do you?

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Tigger
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RJD
Feb 7 2015, 03:58 PM
Tigger
Feb 6 2015, 08:25 PM
The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
You miss the point here, some of the set ups are so contrived to get round the various laws governing tax that it could well be argued that tax avoidance IS going on, and of course the big accountancy firms have been specialising in helping corporations loot the economy anyway, so if Osborne is really serious he'll firstly target the facilitators of this, which of course he won't because the corrupt Tories are in the back pockets of these people!

Roll on the election...........
Would it not be a good idea if you presented a complete description of the weapons Osborne has at his disposal to target the "facilitators"? I know of no Laws that limit individuals from providing advice on Accountancy matters that are within the Laws of this Land, do you?

More evasive gobbledegook, I slightly brighter person than you not intent on wilful ignorance would of course understand that the government if it so desired could clamp down on the schemes that allow large accountancy firms to siphon money out of the economy on behalf of it's clients. Instead it feigns false indignation for public consumption, and it looks like you are happy to accept the crumbs on offer.

The fact that these firms give large cash donations to the Tory party and often have senior staff on secondment giving "advice" to ministers plus of course are major employers of ex MP's is entirely coincidental.

File under where did I leave my false teeth.
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johnofgwent
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The Buccaneer
Feb 6 2015, 07:43 PM
Beats me why PS keeps on finding stuff about tax avoidance, which is of course legal, even if the government of the day have failed to close loopholes. If he can find genuine cases of tax EVASION, then why doesn't he pass the info in to the government to deal with ?
!tkq! !tkq!
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johnofgwent
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Simply put :-

TAX AVOIDANCE IS NOT ILLEGAL


http://www.rbcwmfiduciarynews.com/getfile.php?id=110

1. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has an entire department inventing ways of tax IMPOSITION on an industrial scale.

2. It is, thanks to a declaration by a judge in the High Court in 1929, the duty of every individual to minimise that exposure

3. If you think this is out of date, then turn yourselves in for every single claim for mileage, hotel bills, eating and drinking you ever sent the tax man because EVERY ONE OF THEM DEPENDS ON THE ALLOWANCE GIVEN TO A MAN AS AN EMOLUMENT FOR THE UPKEEP OF A HORSE DATING BACK TO THE 1820's

Now if you wish to whinge about people organising their affairs so as to minimise the revenue's ability to steal their hard won cash, fuck off to the high court and get that case law of 1929 overturned.

And until you do make that attempt, STFU
Edited by johnofgwent, Feb 7 2015, 07:32 PM.
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Tigger
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johnofgwent
Feb 7 2015, 07:31 PM
Simply put :-

TAX AVOIDANCE IS NOT ILLEGAL


http://www.rbcwmfiduciarynews.com/getfile.php?id=110

1. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has an entire department inventing ways of tax IMPOSITION on an industrial scale.

2. It is, thanks to a declaration by a judge in the High Court in 1929, the duty of every individual to minimise that exposure

3. If you think this is out of date, then turn yourselves in for every single claim for mileage, hotel bills, eating and drinking you ever sent the tax man because EVERY ONE OF THEM DEPENDS ON THE ALLOWANCE GIVEN TO A MAN AS AN EMOLUMENT FOR THE UPKEEP OF A HORSE DATING BACK TO THE 1820's

Now if you wish to whinge about people organising their affairs so as to minimise the revenue's ability to steal their hard won cash, fuck off to the high court and get that case law of 1929 overturned.

And until you do make that attempt, STFU
Er..... the point is we know this, and the thrust of the debate is why does the government not alter the legislation that allows firms for example to pay no corporation tax or offshore earnings to avoid local taxes?

Cast your mind back to the early days of the so called booze cruises, perfectly legal but it was quickly clamped down on when some operatives took the piss, now just upscale that several thousand times and replace a bloke in a transit with a multi national.............
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papasmurf
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johnofgwent
Feb 7 2015, 07:31 PM
Simply put :-

TAX AVOIDANCE IS NOT ILLEGAL


[
But Evasion is illegal, and avoidance can become evasion, if legally challenged. (Which can and does happen.)
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Affa
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Tigger
Feb 7 2015, 07:42 PM
Er..... the point is we know this, and the thrust of the debate is why does the government not alter the legislation that allows firms for example to pay no corporation tax or offshore earnings to avoid local taxes?

Cast your mind back to the early days of the so called booze cruises, perfectly legal but it was quickly clamped down on when some operatives took the piss, now just upscale that several thousand times and replace a bloke in a transit with a multi national.............

It can be done, when the will to do it is there.
The question is that with the economy in dire straights, the deficit declared the prime target of the government, why isn't the will to make life easier for the Chancellor driving him to actually do something?
He appears to spend more time wondering how he can exploit this mess and effect some ideological changes that he considers his 'insistence that harsh measures are needed' presents him.
No; it just wouldn't do to deliver real prosperity and undo all the cuts he he feverously wants to remain.

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Tigger
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papasmurf
Feb 7 2015, 08:00 PM
johnofgwent
Feb 7 2015, 07:31 PM
Simply put :-

TAX AVOIDANCE IS NOT ILLEGAL


[
But Evasion is illegal, and avoidance can become evasion, if legally challenged. (Which can and does happen.)
Take That?

And what has a duck and a tax man got in common according to Jimmy Carr? They can both stick their bills up their arses!

;-)
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