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| San Fermín; Fun for the whole family | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 6 2015, 01:00 AM (760 Views) | |
| Heinrich | Jul 6 2015, 01:00 AM Post #1 |
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Made known to Americans by Ernest Hemingway, the annual Fiesta de San Fermín in the city of Pamplona begins today and continues until 14 July. The encierro (running of the bulls from the corral to the plaza de toros takes only about two-and-a-half minutes and is televised live nationally at breakfast time beginning tomorrow morning. It is an centuries-old tradition. The new socialist mayor decided to make a couple of changes this year which includes replacing the opening ceremonial firing of the rocket at noon from the town hall by some local politician with representatives of the Orfeón Pamplonés, a local choir. Wishing to reclaim more participation by families and not only young revelers, the mayor, Joseba Asirón, is encouraging more attractions for children and the official poster depicts a child mocking old Vinegar Face, a character known to children from fiestas. Regardless of politics in this deeply divisive city, everyone looks the same when they wear the red and white outfit of the Peña La Veleta, a Pamplona youth social club.
Edited by Heinrich, Jul 6 2015, 01:01 AM.
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| Gand | Jul 6 2015, 09:05 AM Post #2 |
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Tormenting animals for fun, not my idea of fun. |
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| papasmurf | Jul 6 2015, 09:07 AM Post #3 |
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Sometimes the bulls win:-
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| Cymru | Jul 6 2015, 10:47 AM Post #4 |
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Ouch. |
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| Cymru | Jul 6 2015, 11:25 AM Post #5 |
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I guess it gives a whole new meaning to the term "got the horn". |
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| marybrown | Jul 6 2015, 12:04 PM Post #6 |
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It was actually a lot crueler about 30 years ago.. Balls of black sticky tar were placed on the tips of a constrained bulls horns and are then set alight.. |
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| marybrown | Jul 6 2015, 12:09 PM Post #7 |
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And who could forget ''Blackie'' a donkey rescued by the Sun newspaper because he was due to be thrown from the top of a church tower on good Friday...as a personification of the devil..In an age old ritual..they also quite like throwing goats from high places too... |
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| Gand | Jul 6 2015, 01:09 PM Post #8 |
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Sadly not 30 years ago, this film is from 20011 … what a bunch sick fuckers. WARNING, it is pretty unpleasant … Bull run with fire horns in Burriana, Spain 2011 |
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| marybrown | Jul 6 2015, 01:14 PM Post #9 |
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I can't watch it Gand..one thing they also did was paint tar between the bulls shoulders on his back... The night time ''entertainment'' was to light the tar and let these poor demented beasts run through the town..mad with pain... |
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| marybrown | Jul 6 2015, 02:54 PM Post #10 |
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I lived in southern Spain for a while..I found them unbelievably cruel..I once came across rabbit hutches with what appeared to be cats in them.. When I asked the owner why they were in rabbit cages..he replied..''Comer''..which means to eat!! |
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| Tigger | Jul 6 2015, 07:51 PM Post #11 |
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Was this in Catalonia? Or was it in Cromer and you got a bit confused? Take it from me if they were in "cages" and it was near the coast you were probably mistaking edible crabs for pussies. Edited by Tigger, Jul 6 2015, 07:52 PM.
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| Heinrich | Jul 7 2015, 12:49 AM Post #12 |
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Bulls are not tormented during the encierro. As I posted, the whole event takes about 2½ minutes and the braver revelers run alongside the bulls and into the plaza. Incredibly, the bulls are oblivious to the people and the steers will cowbells keep the toros bravos calm. It is only when a toro is separated from the herd that a person might get into trouble. Ernest Hemingway took part in the running of the bulls for the first time on the 7th of July, 1924 accompanied by Donald Ogden Stewart and, according to Stewart, without getting close to the bulls. LOL Edited by Heinrich, Jul 7 2015, 12:51 AM.
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| Gand | Jul 7 2015, 09:30 AM Post #13 |
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For a start it is part of the whole bullfighting scenario where the animal finally dies a slow and painful death, it is unnecessary cruelty and its only purpose is for the amusement of the crowd. I watched the video and the one that followed on from it … this one: YouTube - Sexto Encierro San Fermín 2013 PELIGROSÍSIMO I don’t know what anyone else sees but I see animals being tormented for fun. Ernest Hemingway was a fine writer but also an enthusiastic hunter and not the greatest advocate for animal rights. I accept that many people enjoy scenes of violence, you only have to look at what films are popular to realise that but people also have empathy towards the suffering of others and this empathy may also include other animals. It is one of humanity’s most redeeming features and I feel it is something to be encouraged, and alternatively the indifference to suffering to be discouraged. This spectacle and what follows on from it is devoid of any empathy towards the suffering of those animals. |
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 12:58 PM Post #14 |
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Just shut up FFS! |
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 01:02 PM Post #15 |
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What amazed me was that there was some sort of betting on the outcome..Spanish men would be sitting in the bars marking off a point system with each ''fight''.. Duh?..I bet not many of them bet on the bull!! |
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| Heinrich | Jul 7 2015, 02:12 PM Post #16 |
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I saw no tormenting of the toro in the video you posted, Gand, and neither did you. What you saw well illustrated the point I made thst it is only when a toro becomes separated from the herd that any person is in danger. This is what happened and we saw several men attempt to save the life of another human being by pulling on the tail of the toro and attempting to distract him. At the same time they coaxed the toro toward the plaza and eventually succeed in getting him there and on into the holding area (toril). Because, on that occasion the toro became isolated and without the calming presence of the steers, we witnessed injury to a man and the encierro took twice as long as normal. The bull came to no harm which cannot be said for the person. In a evening corrida, bulls do not suffer a long an painful death, as you claim. Each lidia takes only about twenty minutes and for most of this time, the bull does all the attacking, armed by nature with sharp deadly horns. Depending on the swordsmanship or the matador, the bull takes about a minute to die and if it takes too long the matador will be given a warning, a second warning if necessary, and will be ordered out if a third warning has to be given which will incur a stiff fine and public humiliation. No one like to see this. English people who sit down to a plate of oxtail stew can be assured that the animal slaughtered for their supper had no fighting chance, unlike the toro bravo during a corrida. |
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 02:21 PM Post #17 |
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You forgot about the picadors..who throw banderillos into the bulls back whilst riding horses..these lances are particularly aimed at between the bulls shoulders where the main arteries lie.. After a horse or two has been disemboweled by the pain ravaged beast..and it is slightly tilting from lack of blood..on come the toreadors..who's job it is to make the beast run backwards and forwards around the ring to near collapse.. Ah..and then we have the Matador..who will take 2 or 3 Ole's and then finally put this beast out of it's misery..by plunging a short sword..once again between the bulls shoulder blades and straight into it's heart.. I lived in Spain...
Edited by marybrown, Jul 7 2015, 02:26 PM.
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 02:32 PM Post #18 |
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And..if you were really nifty..you could nip around the back of the Bull ring..where a butcher was busy butchering the latest victim..blood still steaming and old ladies walking away with blood dripping from their shopping bags.. |
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| Gand | Jul 7 2015, 03:06 PM Post #19 |
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It depends what you define as tormenting, it doesn’t necessarily entail inflicting physical pain, although that is the culmination of the animal’s experience, by definition it also includes mental suffering. I saw animals, running some falling surrounded by a baying mob of people, I would imagine for an animal that has spent most of its life in pasture the experience would be unpleasant, distressing and frightening and it serves no other purpose than for people's amusement Regarding any physical suffering in this part of the bullfighting ritual, according to this article from the “International Business Times,” physical pain is also included to induce the bulls to run. "These animals will be stampeded after being hit with electric prods and sharp sticks and suffering other physical torments, including being given laxatives to weaken them. They will be goaded by revellers, many drunk, who give the animals' plight no thought." Running of the bulls: The history and controversy of Pamplona's famous tradition I suppose a long and painful death is subjective … how long is long. I would regard twenty minutes as a long and painful death; in fact one minute of torturing an animal would be too bloody long. |
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 03:11 PM Post #20 |
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We are the worst ''beasts''..because we can...use animals for our sadistic outlets..they can't fight back.. Have we evolved??..I think not.. |
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| Gand | Jul 7 2015, 03:53 PM Post #21 |
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I don’t know, even an old cynic like me doesn’t think we are all bad; we are after all possibly the only animal that cares for other species. |
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| marybrown | Jul 7 2015, 04:04 PM Post #22 |
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In which way..rescuing kittens...even dog fighting is rife here.. I knew a matador called '''El Nino'' he was fabulously wealthy.. However..we do have a lot of Halal..slaughterhouses.. One of my jobs was to inspect these hell holes.. We care..because to a normal human being..these practices are abhorrent.. We only care when our eyes and minds are assaulted.. |
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| Heinrich | Jul 7 2015, 07:27 PM Post #23 |
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You saw one bull slipping. Far more people fell. The purpose of the encierro is to move the bulls from the corral to the toril at the plaza. The bulls are not stressed or frightened. Some people are, however. The claim that the bulls are shocked into running is a falsehood. You can see for yourself. as soon as the gate is opened they run all the way to the plaza. There is no need to hurt them. The herders running behind with long sticks are there for control and usually have nothing to do. Bulls are not given laxatives. Weak bulls would not be passed by the veterinarians. Bulls are not tortured. It is in the character of toros bravos to attack. The toreros never attack any bull. ![]() Antonio Ordóñez en Pamplona a su amigo Orson Welles Edited by Heinrich, Jul 7 2015, 07:30 PM.
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| Gand | Jul 8 2015, 09:54 AM Post #24 |
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If the purpose is to move the bulls they will simply walk, I have seen farmers do it, animals stampede like that because they are frightened. You claim that the newspaper article is a falsehood, I wouldn’t claim to know for certain, but how do you know it is a falsehood unless you have you been there to witness how the bulls are treated before they are released? There are a number of definitions of torture but fundamentally it is to inflict pain and suffering, mental or physical. You say that the bullfighters don’t attack the bull and that it isn’t tortured. The bull is attacked by men on horseback with lances and by men who run up and stick barbed spikes into it. I would imagine that is a fairly torturous experience for the bull. I’m not sure why you posted the picture, is Orson Wells being friends with a bullfighter supposed to say something? |
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| papasmurf | Jul 8 2015, 10:10 AM Post #25 |
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Having spent many a "happy" hour back in the day, chasing various farm animals across three counties when they decided to disappear into the distance at a rate of knots for no apparent reason whatsoever, we will have to agree to disagree about that. I should also point out effectively those are wild bulls. |
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| Heinrich | Jul 8 2015, 10:54 AM Post #26 |
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You have not seen farmers herd toros bravos which are wild, not domesticated animals. I have seen the bulls in the corral. They are calm before that gate is opened. For some reason which I can only guess at, there is mostly propaganda written in English about the Spanish bulls. The men on horseback you mention are the picadores. They are forbidden to to attack the bulls. The picadores are restricted to the outer circumference of the arena (demarcated by a while line) and must remain at a standstill. A toro bravo will attack the picador and be pierced with the tip of the lance to a regulated depth. As long as the bull is attacking the picador, he will endure the pick. The bull can stop attacking at any moment but usually is far too courageous for that. The matador will distract the bull from attacking the picador and this is called a quite. Similarly, the toreros with "barbed spikes" (banderillas) are forbidden to place the banderillas unless the bull is charging him. He is restricted to the innermost circle of the arena and has no defense against a charging toro. ![]() Bull charging a banderillero whose feet must be in the air when the banderillas are placed. Bulls who refuse to charge, may be disqualified from the lidia and be replaced with a substitute. The thread was started to draw attention to the cultural festival of San Fermín this week in Pamplona, only an element of which is the bulls. The English hear nothing about this unless an Anglo-Saxon tourist is injured, so I made a point of including the author Ernest Hemingway because he set one of his novels partly in Pamplona and I added a photo of Orson Wells at Pamplona because he is familiar to English-speakers and he understood the toros. He also befriended the matador Antonio Ordóñez (also in the picture) and on whose bull ranch (ganadaria) his ashes are buried today. Edited by Heinrich, Jul 8 2015, 11:04 AM.
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| papasmurf | Jul 8 2015, 10:59 AM Post #27 |
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Actually the running of the bulls in Pamplona is a news event on UK news media every year, with sometimes the added bonus of a Chav on holiday trying to run with the bulls after drinking several litres of San Miguel and getting a bull's horn up the Jacksie. |
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| Gand | Jul 8 2015, 03:11 PM Post #28 |
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If you can’t herd the bulls how do they get them into the corral? It isn’t just English propaganda many Spaniards are also opposed to bullfighting and it is banned in Catalonia. How the spectacle is played out and rules employed is irrelevant, it doesn’t justify the cruelty, nor does the fact that these animals may be prone to aggression justify the harm inflicted on them. I’m all in favour of festivities but not if they involve unnecessary cruelty to animals. |
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| Marconi | Jul 8 2015, 08:35 PM Post #29 |
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![]() ''Carlsberg doesn't do sick animal cruelty. But if they did...'' |
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| Tigger | Jul 8 2015, 10:24 PM Post #30 |
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Looks like Robbie Coltrane criticising Tim Henman's dress sense. |
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| Heinrich | Jul 8 2015, 10:51 PM Post #31 |
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The bulls and steers need no coaxing to start running to the plaza. Side streets are blocked off to keep them on course. Of course there are some in Spain who do not approve of the corrida but very many do, unlike the Anglo-Saxons. The nature of the toros bravos and the artistic skill of the toreros is central to the spectacle. I have no expectation of persuading you, Gand. |
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| marybrown | Jul 9 2015, 11:06 AM Post #32 |
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The Toro piscine is much more fun... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfUcfFclzNs Still looks a bit cruel though.. |
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| Gand | Jul 9 2015, 12:56 PM Post #33 |
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On that we can agree, I am unlikely to be persuaded by your arguments so far. I can be persuaded by logical and moral arguments but the spectacle and skill of the performers just doesn’t cut it. I’m sure the same arguments would have been used in roman times against the opponents of the gladiatorial combats. Any perceived artistry of a spectacle doesn’t excuse its cruelty. If it did you could justify any atrocity on the grounds that it has artistic merit. I am not persuaded and as far as I can see it is defending the indefensible. |
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| RoofGardener | Jul 9 2015, 01:24 PM Post #34 |
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Indeed Gasao. Here's a little fact that might amuse you... if you wheren't already aware of it. In England, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals came into existence in 1824. The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was only formed 60 years later , in 1884. The story runs that it came about after a group of people tried to use the Law to protect a local child who was being terribly abused by her parents. Problem was.... there WAS no law protecting children. So they used a law intended to protect Cattle from mistreatment, and argued that the child WAS - ultimately - an animal. The implications rocked the court, and subsequently London society, to its core. The 1889 Prevention of Cruelty to Children Act rocketed through parliament, despite the controversy of creating a law that interceded between parent and child. (some regarded the law as being a monstrous intrusion of the Crown into private life, and a massive and unwanted expansion of government power). And all because of a love of .. some... animals. |
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| Heinrich | Jul 9 2015, 01:57 PM Post #35 |
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It is a false comparison to mention Roman gladiators and tells me that you have no concept of the courage and art involved for a man to face a toro bravo. Where have I failed to be logical, Gand? I do not understand. Demonstrating control over a toro bravo within the ritual of a corrida is neither immoral nor cruel. Rather, it is a celebration of grace, intelligence, and courage under mortal threat. Toreros and the public (afionados) love the bulls. I have never witnessed anyone being reached once they have their minds made up that the corrida cannot be defended which is why I never try to win over those who have an objection. For the record, I do correct misinformation. ![]() The black bow on the sleeve of this traje de luces (suit of lights) is in memoriam for a torero who recently suffered a mortal wound in the plaza. |
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| marybrown | Jul 9 2015, 02:29 PM Post #36 |
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Oh how honourable..I think I may burst into tears... You blood thirsty pillock.. What do you do for fun...pull the wings off flies?? |
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| marybrown | Jul 9 2015, 04:03 PM Post #37 |
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Picadors??? Have to have both their feet off the floor before placing a banderillo??...or a spear? https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=picadors+on+horseback&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=xJqeVYTbJsKO7Qbj3IHICA&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1267&bih=663 Edited by marybrown, Jul 9 2015, 05:31 PM.
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| Gand | Jul 9 2015, 07:17 PM Post #38 |
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Gladiatorial combat is actually quite a good analogy, not all the combats were man against man; combats of gladiators against animals were also very popular. The gladiators who took part in such combats were called the “Bestiaries.” Where have your arguments failed to be logical? Practically all the evidence you have used to justify bullfighting, the art, the bravery, that there is some glory in it, the courage, the celebration of grace etc, are basically an “appeal to emotion” which is a logical fallacy. Also your use of Hemingway and the picture of Orson Wells is an “appeal to celebrity” which is also a logical fallacy You say it isn’t immoral or cruel. Please explain to me how inflicting unnecessary pain on an animal isn’t cruel and what moral code would you use to explain how inflicting that unnecessary pain is moral? |
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| Heinrich | Jul 9 2015, 09:57 PM Post #39 |
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Gladiatorial combat in Roman times was confined to men alone. Bestarii were not gladiators. The eighteenth century refinements introduced in Spain which build upon the highly refined and artistic embellishments of the Moors in Al-Ándaluz since the eighth century and which are the foundation of the modern corrida de toros should not be compared to the brutish, formless spectacle practiced by the ancient Romans or the Visigoths in Iberia. Logic and emotion are not mutually exclusive. The corrida de toros is essentially emotional and it can be explained logically, as I have done. Emotion is part of the human condition and is in no way inconsistent with logic. Including Hemingway and Orson Wells who were notable English-speaking afionados who would be familiar to Anglo-Saxons not generally acquainted with the corrida de toros. Indeed, since the opening post is about Pamplona, it would have been an omission not to mention Hemingway. Not many people know that Orson Wells was considered (by himself principally) a friend of Hemingway and a photo of him at Pamplona is both logical and apt. I already explained to you that no gratuitous pain is inflicted on a toro during a corrida as the bull does all the attacking and could refuse to fight should it so wish. This sometimes happens and then it is led from the arena by some steers. Sometimes a bull is so noble, true, and courageous, that he is granted a reprieve (indulto) which the public will demand. ![]() "Nevado" living the bucolic life into old age after being granted an indulto Edited by Heinrich, Jul 9 2015, 10:05 PM.
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| marybrown | Jul 10 2015, 01:08 PM Post #40 |
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There is nothing ''honourable'' about bullfighting.. It's a slaughter house..pure and simple.. We know the Greeks..Moors..etc..made it into a ''Minotaur'' mythology.. It is still the slaughter of an innocent beast..for entertainment.. I thought we'd moved on.. |
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