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| Justification for striking? | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM (2,903 Views) | |
| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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How much a newly-qualified tube driver makes per hour, compared to other careers Career Teacher Firefighter Nurse Policeman Tube driver £/hr worked 7.6 9.66 11.12 11.2 26.53 Are switch flickers worth3.5x more that Teachers? How much do Tube Drivers get I would not use the word earn. Funny when it is a problem with a monopoly supplier of goods and services that we are angry, outraged and the Usuals scream from the rooftops "it's not fair". |
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| johnofgwent | Aug 5 2015, 07:07 AM Post #2 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Funny when it is a problem with a monopoly supplier of goods and services that we are angry, outraged and the Usuals scream from the rooftops "it's not fair". Funny I wasn't aware of any private enterprise alternatives to the London Fire Brigade. Or anyone else's. And the funniest thing was, about two years ago when I took a contract for the lowest hourly rate I've ever charged compared to the RPI, to sort out the intranet for Wiltshire Fire and Rescue, a contract I was delighted to take for the money they offered as a thank you to the time their fellow professionals in another brigade hauled me out of a wreck some fucking lorry driver had created that was once my car, Some wanker in Whitehall put forward provisions to privatise the fire brigade, and used as evidence for privatisation the model of two companies that offer fire cover to airshows and large scale public entertainment venues. A pity those wankers had not delved a little into the websites of the organisations they so extolled as the model of virtue for their privatised new world. had they done so they would have found those companies websites carried statements pointing out that the reason they were able to cover these large public events and charity fundraising airshows and the like was because the staff that manned the applicances that were on call were almost all retained firemen employed for the event at NMW rates of pay, or retained or full time firemen volunteering to provide the cover at no pay for the charitable cause. A pretty fucking damning indictment of the government's ploy of getting the voluntary charitable sector cost base as a method to denounce those beign paid the fulle conomic cost, while those doing this are of course worth £5000 a day at a minimum. Of course, if you're happy to ride the tube in the knowledge your journey is being controlled by some spotty oik the jobcentre sent round for job experience, or software long since modified - in some backwater outsourced shithole - from that originally installed ... feel free. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 07:12 AM Post #3 |
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RJD how about posting what a tube driver really gets and not what a Tory propaganda newspaper says they get. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 5 2015, 07:37 AM Post #4 |
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Upstanding Member
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If you genuinely think a job that involves an individual taking moral and legal responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people isn't "earning" a wage then you are so out of touch with reality that your healthcare professional is remiss for not having you moved to a residential care facility. All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Aug 5 2015, 07:39 AM.
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 07:42 AM Post #5 |
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| Ewill | Aug 5 2015, 08:30 AM Post #6 |
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Sounds like how to become a tube driver in the first place is more pertinent - it's a closed shop <<<<Transport for London hasn't actually been advertising tube driver vacancies to the public, so there are remarkably few applicants for each position - as they are all internal. TfL don't advertise the jobs externally due to a deal with the trade unions, which means it goes for internal candidates first, and only offers vacancies to the public if it fails to find enough people to fill the posts. In response to a recent Freedom of Information request, the capital's transport body confirmed: "We have not run a [recruitment] campaign to the general public since 2008." .................. Tube drivers' jobs................. are effectively a "promotion" for junior transport staff like station assistants. "You can't just walk into a tube driver's job," he added. .... .................................What happens if TfL tries to recruit externally? The unions get grumpy, with the RMT throwing a strop in 2013 over the idea that London Underground could recruit drivers "on the open market". "We believe that the 'shortfall of successful applicants' is because of failings in the assessment and training process, which are rejecting capable candidates," the union said, accusing London Underground of building a "a pretext to recruit externally, to weaken the workforce solidarity that internal recruitment supports". >>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11730449/Want-to-be-a-Tube-driver-Well-you-cant.-Heres-why.html |
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 08:35 AM Post #7 |
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According to the Torygraph. There are very valid and legitimate reasons for tube and other train drivers to have worked their way up in house before they can be a train driver. I would not want to be a passenger on a tube train/train driven by someone who had eff all knowledge of the system before they trained to be a driver. |
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| Ewill | Aug 5 2015, 08:39 AM Post #8 |
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 08:43 AM Post #9 |
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Which is why I am never likely to be a passenger on it. |
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| HIGHWAY | Aug 5 2015, 08:52 AM Post #10 |
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| ACH1967 | Aug 5 2015, 09:13 AM Post #11 |
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I listened to the interview on R4 regarding this. Whilst Boris came off sounding like he knew his stuff and the Union guy sounded like he could seriously do with a bit more training it would appear that the crux of the matter is this: The underground will be laying on more services yet not recruiting any further staff and no employee will be forced to do this extra work. This doesn’t add up to me. |
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| Steve K | Aug 5 2015, 10:04 AM Post #12 |
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Once and future cynic
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About as funny as when a monopolistic employer seeks to impose a deal on its employees? And instead of a monopoly of DT input at least look at the Union side of the dispute as put to its members Seems this a more complex dispute than Boris would have us believe with questions over safety he isn't answering. IMHO both sides are trying to railroad each other. |
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| Rich | Aug 5 2015, 10:33 AM Post #13 |
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Hold on a moment PV, as a maintenance engineer at a hospital, when on call AND called out it is up to the engineer on call wether or not as to close a ward down and have the patients shipped to an hotel or not, the reasons are many fold, patient damage to electrical equipment, flooding of en suite bathrooms that may also affect the ward below, gas failures because of fire alarms being constantly set off by spraying deodorants into ceiling mounted sensors, patients barricading themselves into rooms, I once had to deal with a situation whereby a patient had escaped and managed to get onto the roof and had damaged the flue terminals of the boilers, (the Fire brigade eventually got him down) I in the private sector was only on £13.00 per hour then, of course I am on much less now. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 10:35 AM Post #14 |
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Bit emotional John, but I doubt that that a selection process and proper training would allow a 'spotty oik to be at the controls of a train, anymore than they would be allowed at the controls of a London bus, which is much more demanding, especially at £50,000 A a year. they must be queuing up to join ,though I suspect you will need to be a relative of a tube driver to be accepted. In the USA and other countries the Fire and rescue been made to get our own Fire and rescue services to participate in the same manner, but the FBU is refusing to get involved. Its not as if they are operational most of the time. I look forward to the new laws being passes on strikes such as this, which is more political, a flexing of union muscles than a real concern about wags or working practices. Selfish buggers. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 10:41 AM Post #15 |
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"It should read, tht in the USA and other countries the Fire and rescue service is required to offer health emergencies and attend such emergencies to give immediate aid, even convey to hospitals all with special first aid and paramedic training |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 5 2015, 12:13 PM Post #16 |
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Upstanding Member
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And for NMW I am routinely put in a position where, in a worst case scenario, I may be required to make an "evacuate/don't evacuate" decision that will affect 400+ people, often including children, the elderly and the disabled; and on top of that, until just recently when my ticket expired, I was also a listed Emergency First Aider and may have had to take life or death decisions on complete strangers. My point was that anyone in any job where they have to make snap decisions, and health and safety calls on behalf of others is certainly "earning" their pay. RJD seems to think that Tube Driver aren't, I can only assume that is because they are public sector workers. I wonder what he thinks about maintenance engineers, and theatre "duty managers"? All The Best |
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| marybrown | Aug 5 2015, 12:33 PM Post #17 |
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When they were building the Chunnel..I lived in Kent.we used to have flyers through the door on a regular basis.. Jobs driving the trains was one...''full training given''. so it can't be that hard if they were pushing these offers of jobs through your door.. Bloody hell..those were the days... |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 12:44 PM Post #18 |
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Same old bitter Tory propaganda aimed at making the public fight each other like rats in a sack. Train drivers are as much ' switch flickers' as Bankers are ' paper shufflers'. |
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| ACH1967 | Aug 5 2015, 12:58 PM Post #19 |
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^ divide and conquer. Depressingly effective |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 04:41 PM Post #20 |
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Do you approve of transport workers of any type holding the public to ransom to gain heir own ends,? Every dispute ends in sitting around a table. Its a good place to start. Millions suffer the daily grind trying to get to work and make a crust, many young old and pregnant, and to lose a days pay or have to spend hours in seeking alternative transport is selfish in the extreme. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 04:43 PM Post #21 |
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Blackmail to win also depressing |
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| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 04:50 PM Post #22 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Strawman argument as nobody has suggested such. I note you do not substantiate your claim that the Torygraph numbers are not correct. Anyway for those that can read it is all about differentials. As for responsibility; is an London Underground switch flicker taking a higher responsibility that a Nurse or the driver of an Ambulance or a Bus or a Coach? |
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| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 04:51 PM Post #23 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Really. Have you actually been in a drivers cab and watched the limited eyeball and hand movements necessary to move and stop such a vehicle? |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 04:56 PM Post #24 |
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Well we COULD say that about doctors and bankers couldnt we? The difference is that the government are too afraid to take on the doctors and are so in the bankers pockets that they bail them out with public money. Your whining about ' millions suffering the daily grind' and pulling our heartstrings with 'many old and pregnant' only underlines the importance of the workers who provide the service and thus the need to give them the appropriate remuneration. This is class thing..the usual suspects hate the idea that oiks could possibly deserve a high wage and do not look beyond this.
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 04:59 PM Post #25 |
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So you would base wage and conditions on eyeball and hand movements? That would make the blokes with the bats at airports get a higher wage than pilots. Have you been drinking the bathwater? |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 05:01 PM Post #26 |
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Exactly what the train drivers are saying about LU. They are saying that LU is simply being inflexible and offering rehashed deals as new ones |
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| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 05:17 PM Post #27 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Is it not a matter of supply and demand? I can hundreds of thousands of able people that could be made capable to drive such a vehicle with a day of training. I could not say the same about Teachers and Nurses who require considerably more training and basic knowledge. The point is one of differentials and my question remains unanswered; is a Tube Driver worth 3.5x more than a Teacher? Face facts, this is a monopolistic position and an abuse of power. The railways exist for Passengers not to featherbed drivers and pad out their pay packets, passengers are getting a raw deal. If you believe that these drivers should receive such rewards then very many other jobs should receive more, then wqe can close the show down and totally forget public services. The differentials are obscene. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 5 2015, 05:24 PM Post #28 |
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Is that like bankers saying "pay us twice for fucking everything up or we'll go abroad"? Or any one of a hundred or so major companies saying "if we leave the EU we'll go abroad", or "if taxes go up we'll go abroad", or "if you try to regulate us we'll go abroad"? Same style of boot, different foot. All The Best |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 05:29 PM Post #29 |
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Ah I see. If the hoi polloi can do it then it must be easy . A tube driver is responsible for literally thousands of people per day...far more than most nhs workers. You have no idea how much skill a tube driver has or should need. You are so ignorant in fact that you linked their skill to eye and hand movement..I have no idea how you could use this as a guide to skill. The point is that you hate the idea of a skilled working class person earning middle class wages and being supported by a powerful trade union . |
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 05:33 PM Post #30 |
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That does appear to be RJD's mindset. |
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| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 05:51 PM Post #31 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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For some what they find difficult others find to be very easy. Relatively speaking and this is all about relativity, driving such trains is child's play. However, I can understand that some here think it akin to performing open heart surgery. I note that the Usuals are incapable of addressing any of the questions, do they find these too difficult, and resort to the usual. Time they learned and understood that such a stance is expected from that quarter and pigeonholes them in the "not too bright but perhaps nice" brigade. Clearly substantiation is for them an alien process as it is like driving such a train; "far too difficult". |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 06:00 PM Post #32 |
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Clearly this is a case of because you believe it then it must be true. You actually claimed that one could learn to drive a tube train within a day and somehow linked skill with eye and hand movement. As said train drivers are responsible for thousands of people a day and should be given appropriate pay and conditions. Your idea of appropriate pay is the ,lowest that can possibly be given to anyone who could last a days training. The reality is that , so far, the train drivers have negotiated the highest return for their services..as a capitalist you should be praising them |
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| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 06:04 PM Post #33 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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If the market was open and free then yes, but it is rigged. The questions remain unanswered, but attempts to circumvent fail miserably. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 06:07 PM Post #34 |
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RJD you are an effing idiot. The Tube Train drivers training manual is 200 pages. Understanding the responsibilities of a train driver is very important. There are many different things for which a driver is responsible, and they are all vital. You will have to ensure that the train is in good working order before leaving. You also have to know the route you will follow and coordinate with the control centre. During the course of a trip, you will have to learn about delays and problems ahead, plan for these and make your passengers aware of them, as well. You will also need to understand current track conditions and weather conditions, as well as how these will affect travel. You will need to follow signals and safety regulations at all times, keep the train under control and at the correct speed, and make announcements to passengers. Other responsibilities of drivers include opening automatic doors at stations, understanding emergency procedures, adhering to restrictions at all times, stopping the train at the correct locations, adhering to the correct schedule, and more. You will need to alert your relief driver to any problems, accidents or hazards, keep a record of any problems encountered, record delays that affect service and alert the control centre to hazards you might encounter on your route. We will provide you with a 200-page book that covers every aspect of the London Underground train driver selection process. From essential insider tips and advice on how to complete the application form, through to actual interview questions, we will show you how to prepare for, and pass, the London Underground train driver selection process. Edited by papasmurf, Aug 5 2015, 06:14 PM.
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 06:26 PM Post #35 |
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Its only ' rigged ' because you say it is. The rates depend on collective bargaining and the services of a organisation that is paid to represent them. This is exactly what lawyers and doctors do. Train drivers are responsible for more people per day that most of either. The only difference is the skill level....and this is why you relentlessly try to devalue the skills of the train drivers..because the more you can convince yourself and others that the art of train driving is actually the preserve of dunces and simpletons rather than a skilled and valuable service given by skilled and responsible people...the more you can separate them from traditional practices by specific middle class proffessions |
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| Ewill | Aug 5 2015, 06:48 PM Post #36 |
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You have no idea how much skill a tube driver has or should need>> It involves holding down a dead man's handle and opening the doors on the correct side in stations (there have been tube strikes in the past when drivers on three warnings for opening on the wrong side were sacked - the union wouldn't wait for the industrial tribunal-they simply went on strike demanding reinstatement of the incompetents) Oh and occasional mumblings to passengers if the train is held in a tunnel It can't be hard if you can be 'promoted' from standing on a platform operating a tannoy with ''move right down inside the carriages please'' to tube driver |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 06:53 PM Post #37 |
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Indeed. Same as pilots. You only need to be able to work the automatic system..its all done for you and you even get an assistant. See I can do that to
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| Ewill | Aug 5 2015, 07:42 PM Post #38 |
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How many airport baggage handlers were ''promoted'' to becoming an airline pilot last year?
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| gee4444 | Aug 5 2015, 07:46 PM Post #39 |
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Maybe teachers, nurses, fire fighters and policemen should be paid more? Rather that than a race to the bottom the Unashamed prefer. Here's another comparison: £299.4m is equivalent to the cost of 14,000 nurses, 13,000 police officers and 14,000 teachers per year. What single organisation do you imagine costs the tax payers an estimated £299.4m year? I do like cherrypicking, it's cathartic. Edited by gee4444, Aug 5 2015, 07:54 PM.
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 07:47 PM Post #40 |
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I dont know. There again I know as much about pilots as you do about tube drivers. |
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only underlines the importance of the workers who provide the service and thus the need to give them the appropriate remuneration. This is class thing..the usual suspects hate the idea that oiks could possibly deserve a high wage and do not look beyond this.

8:31 AM Jul 11