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| Justification for striking? | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM (2,912 Views) | |
| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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How much a newly-qualified tube driver makes per hour, compared to other careers Career Teacher Firefighter Nurse Policeman Tube driver £/hr worked 7.6 9.66 11.12 11.2 26.53 Are switch flickers worth3.5x more that Teachers? How much do Tube Drivers get I would not use the word earn. Funny when it is a problem with a monopoly supplier of goods and services that we are angry, outraged and the Usuals scream from the rooftops "it's not fair". |
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| Ewill | Aug 5 2015, 07:55 PM Post #41 |
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assumptions , assumptions........ |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 07:59 PM Post #42 |
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That was exactly my point, well done
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| papasmurf | Aug 5 2015, 08:19 PM Post #43 |
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It should be pointed out the dispute has eff all to do with money. It has to do with the same number of drivers having to cover keeping the system running overnight on Friday and Saturday. (A Boris Johnson idea.) Personally I can't see how that can be done legally due rest times required between changing from day to night shift. |
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| Steve K | Aug 5 2015, 08:27 PM Post #44 |
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Once and future cynic
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Yep and as the RMT side of the story I posted up says: how is it safe to go that duration on that vintage infrastructure without safety inspections and maintenance? Nice idea in principle Boris but the devil is always in the detail |
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| Deleted User | Aug 5 2015, 08:28 PM Post #45 |
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Indeed. It is the rest periods and rotas that are the core problems. The media doesnt seem to make that clear.Funny that. The Guardian was pretty good http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/05/london-tube-strike-begins-four-unions-action-over-night-service The general secretary of the union Aslef, Mick Whelan, said: “Our members have rejected the latest offer from the company because they are forcing through new rosters without agreement and offer no firm commitments on work-life balance for train drivers. The RMT leader, Mick Cash, said: “The offer tabled by London Underground is just a rehash of an earlier package and does nothing to tackle the fundamental issue of our members being called into work at the beck and call of management, to plug staffing gaps in the mayor’s botched night tube plans. “This dispute is not about money, it’s about being able to plan for, and enjoy, some downtime with friends and family away from work |
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| Rich | Aug 5 2015, 09:49 PM Post #46 |
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Could you please educate me as to how much "skill" is needed to drive a tube train, are any qualifications needed when applying for the job? what is the extent of training to become a tube train driver?, I am eager to learn as I could certainly use an annual salary such as they get. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 10:03 PM Post #47 |
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Its a class thing is it? Some excuse for disrupting the lives of those not involved in the dispute. and depend on the transport to get to and from work. Says it all from your POV, just a continuation of the class struggle and therefore justified. Shameful especially when most are earning the average wage of £26 000, as against the tube drivers minimum £50,000 A claass war between the better paid and the lower paid IMO, with the better off being the drivers. |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 5 2015, 10:07 PM Post #48 |
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They get an average 43 days leave a year. When I started work we got 14 days leave off a year, and worked 48 hour week. |
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| Ewill | Aug 6 2015, 12:20 AM Post #49 |
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You are the one making assumptions , not me |
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| Ewill | Aug 6 2015, 12:25 AM Post #50 |
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From your Guardian article <<Steve Griffiths, LU chief operating officer, said: “We have made every effort to reach agreement with the unions and avoid this unnecessary strike action. On the table is an extremely fair offer. “We have employed 137 new drivers and 345 new station staff for the night tube service. We’ve made work-life balance guarantees that no one will work extra hours and that drivers will have the same number of weekends off as now, and will be able to choose whether they work night tube shifts in future. >> LU should tear up the union agreement to ''promote'' internal station staff to become tube drivers and should start advertising all vacancies transparently on the open jobs' market |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 6 2015, 06:19 AM Post #51 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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So in effect, you are saying that the job of safely getting people about on their daily business is very important? Should that job then not deserve good wages? Supply and demand and all that. Bankers do it. People rely on them in a similar way, so they get stupid wages and even sillier bonuses, because without them the financial system would cease to function in an effective way? They also have the knowledge that if they do cock up, they will be bailed out with public money because the govnt cannot allow the financial sector to go under. The public also have to settle for any price increases from privatised utility companies because thy cannot do without these utilities. Is that not holding the public to ransom too? Very many private enterprises do the same, from one man bands, to large companies. "If you want what we offer, you have to pay our price" that's capitalism for you. Fair doesn't come into it.
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 6 2015, 06:38 AM Post #52 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah. And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 6 2015, 06:41 AM Post #53 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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Fine. When advertising the job, would it not be reasonable to state "only people with previous experience within London Underground should apply". |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 06:47 AM Post #54 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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But I dislike poor logic. I am not amazed that each and every Usual avoids the core question as if it were the plague. This is a disgraceful abuse of monopoly power and the analogies do not stand scrutiny. If all Public Sector Workers were paid salaries commensurate with that obtained by these Train Drivers based on some comparison of skill, education and training then young Teachers starting their career in the Classroom would receive ~£150,000+ PA. Not viable is it. NHS Doctors perhaps £500,000 PA. Get real, the core question is the only one of importance, namely. are these Drivers worth 3.5X that of a Teacher. Answer the question if you are able and stop avoiding it. Having installed equipment in London Underground so that Drivers obtain CCTV signals in advance of arriving at a Platform, I am well aware of the simple processes necessary to Drive such a vehicle. Indeed a London Bus Driver has greater stress and necessary skill to navigate the roads. The fact that many here think those processes are very difficult ones is a quite separate matter. It is all relative. ![]() Customers treated with total disregard as by monopoly suppliers. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 06:53 AM Post #55 |
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RJD do you realise what a bloody idiot you are making yourself look? (Seriously.) |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 06:53 AM Post #56 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Why? Knowledge of LU that is necessary to such Workers can be very quickly learned. Are you claiming that LU should be inhibited from ever employing young inexperienced people? Pure unadulterated reactionist twaddle. I have some sympathy with the sack the lot of them and hire on completely different "no strike" terms. These are the same sort of people with the same mindset that made the UK a laughing stock in the 1970s. These Public Sector Union Bosses are clones, exact clones of yesteryear. Maybe it is time for Cameron to emulate Thatcher and bring them to heel as a matter of pressing public duty. |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 06:57 AM Post #57 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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I am afraid you are the one who is an idiot if you think driving a train is as complex as flying a plane or requires more education and training than a classroom Teacher. If I recall you even claim that operating a metal cutting machine for decades provided you with the skill and experience to manage businesses, nay rule the Planet. Get into the real World Mr Smurf recognise that driving a train, such a train, is very simple relatively speaking. The fact that you see such simple operations as very difficult is another matter (seriously). |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 06:58 AM Post #58 |
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No-one is claiming that but if you think someone can just rock up and get the knowledge needed of the system an underground train driver needs in five minutes and then after a weeks training become a tube train driver you really do needs your marbles checking. |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 07:09 AM Post #59 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Strawman. Nobody claimed such however if you can read the Poster claimed that recruitment should only be from those with LU knowledge, hence my sensible retort. You might think that gaining such knowledge is a very difficult thing and driving such a train complex, but they are not and I can get hundreds of thousands of fit and able people capable of doing the job in a short period of time for less money. Answer the core question, so far each and every Usual has avoided it. But that is the politics of the Usuals anything you do not like, first seek to rubbish it by slander or if that is not possible ignore it. Answer the question. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 07:11 AM Post #60 |
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You have been implying it all through this thread. |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 07:14 AM Post #61 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Learn to read my words with your crystal ball covered up. Answer the core question if you are able as avoidance marks you out as a bigot and you surely do not want to hear that again. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 07:20 AM Post #62 |
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Look at your own thread opener, in which you also implied the strike is about money, which it is not. You are the bigot on this forum your attitude to anyone who actually has to work for a living is disgraceful. |
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| disgruntled porker | Aug 6 2015, 08:05 AM Post #63 |
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Older than most people think I am.
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He certainly has: Switch flicker Driving a train is child's play you can learn to drive a train in a day. |
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| Ewill | Aug 6 2015, 08:06 AM Post #64 |
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I fail to see how a tannoy wielding ''move right down inside the carriages please'' LU worker has relevant experience to be ''promoted'' for tube train driving? Why not ''promote'' hospital ward catering staff to surgical duties if you think that working for the same business in a completely unrelated function is a valid argument? |
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| nute | Aug 6 2015, 08:08 AM Post #65 |
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There is no comparison between the skill level needed to be a pilot and that needed to drive a tube train. Dumb analogy. As is the "responsibility for thousands of passengers each day/200 page training manual" therefore it must be difficult comparison. Its a job which entails responsibility for public safety and therefore obviously it needs adequately trained individuals but the system has allowed the tube drivers to use their stranglehold on London's transport to obtain a much higher wage than other professions in the public sector. ...well the last laugh is on them, in 10 years automation will be probably underway and we wont need the overpaid tube drivers anyway. |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 09:00 AM Post #66 |
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That will mean a terrorist won't even need a bomb or a gun. |
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| nute | Aug 6 2015, 09:13 AM Post #67 |
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What is that supposed to mean? I take it you have never traveled on metro's in Copenhagen, Turin, Paris, Rome and a host of other european cities all of which have completely automated metro lines? Of course they are getting attacked all the time.... |
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| Tytoalba | Aug 6 2015, 09:50 AM Post #68 |
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When was the last time there was a train accident on the tube line due to the driver not being fit for the job? Who runs the tube line the management or the Unions do not show any sign of goodwill? I loo0k forward to the new laws o strikes being enacted, and the Unions are doing a good job of alienating the public and adding strength to the governments case. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 6 2015, 10:09 AM Post #69 |
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Well I think I have no option but to: ![]() All The Best |
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 10:24 AM Post #70 |
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All a terrorist needs is knowledge, a pair of wire cutters, some small crocodile clips and some short lengths of wire. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. Plus no driver, no guidance for passengers if there is a catsarsetrophy. I would not travel on any driverless system, I don't even like travelling staircases. |
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| Oddball | Aug 6 2015, 10:32 AM Post #71 |
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RJD - Ref. your OP, I reckon that you have skirted over the responsibilities inherent in 'switch flicking'. If a teacher makes a mistake it would extremely rarely lead to multiple deaths and physical injuries - especially within a classroom setting. It could also be argued the a lot of teachers these days don't regularly work unsociable hours in a [non-domestic] setting, and in many circumstances have to stay away overnight. I do however agree with you that a x3.5 mark up in the train drivers' wage/salary is somewhat OTT - especially with all the personal and family bennies added in. Edited by Oddball, Aug 6 2015, 10:32 AM.
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| papasmurf | Aug 6 2015, 10:43 AM Post #72 |
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You are somewhat out of date with the benefit cap and welfare reforms. Plus personally I would not be a teacher for the same pay as a tube train driver, unless I were issued with body armour and a cattle prod. Edited by papasmurf, Aug 6 2015, 10:45 AM.
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 02:43 PM Post #73 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Train Drivers do not provide additional security. This strike will only motivate the desire for Driverless Trains. By the way I supply the control systems and DC motors for such in the USA and Australia decades ago. We already have the necessary technology. It is not akin to flying drones. The strike is all about money. |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 02:48 PM Post #74 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Again all is relative. Is the switch flicking by such train drivers more or less risky to passengers that a driver of a bus? Believe me the knowledge required to drive such a train is significantly less than my grandmother required to power and operate her Singer treadle sowing machine to make clothes. There is a lot of unsubstantiated BS from the Usuals here in the attempt to bull up this job as high skill, it's not it's low skill and there are hundreds of thousands of able people ready and willing to take on the job for less. It is a disgrace that the Usuals avoid the core question. |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 02:49 PM Post #75 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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It is. They are negotiating over pay. The amounts have been put on the table and rejected. |
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| marybrown | Aug 6 2015, 02:50 PM Post #76 |
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The ones that weren't pissed..
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 02:51 PM Post #77 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You may not be able to, but hundreds of thousands of others could. This is, relatively speaking, a low skilled job. However I can understand that some of the Usuals think it is brain surgery. |
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| marybrown | Aug 6 2015, 02:53 PM Post #78 |
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I knew an alcoholic pilot..who told me he'd ''black out'' on a flight from London to New York... |
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| RJD | Aug 6 2015, 02:56 PM Post #79 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Read: no formal education requirements to enter this field. What is required to become a Classroom Teacher? Are such Drivers worth 3.5x more than such Teachers? |
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| marybrown | Aug 6 2015, 02:58 PM Post #80 |
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Are teacher worth the money?..they appear to be raising a generation of imbeciles.. |
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only underlines the importance of the workers who provide the service and thus the need to give them the appropriate remuneration. This is class thing..the usual suspects hate the idea that oiks could possibly deserve a high wage and do not look beyond this.
They also have the knowledge that if they do cock up, they will be bailed out with public money because the govnt cannot allow the financial sector to go under. The public also have to settle for any price increases from privatised utility companies because thy cannot do without these utilities. Is that not holding the public to ransom too? Very many private enterprises do the same, from one man bands, to large companies. "If you want what we offer, you have to pay our price" that's capitalism for you. Fair doesn't come into it.



8:31 AM Jul 11