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| Justification for striking? | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM (2,910 Views) | |
| RJD | Aug 5 2015, 06:40 AM Post #1 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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How much a newly-qualified tube driver makes per hour, compared to other careers Career Teacher Firefighter Nurse Policeman Tube driver £/hr worked 7.6 9.66 11.12 11.2 26.53 Are switch flickers worth3.5x more that Teachers? How much do Tube Drivers get I would not use the word earn. Funny when it is a problem with a monopoly supplier of goods and services that we are angry, outraged and the Usuals scream from the rooftops "it's not fair". |
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| Affa | Aug 7 2015, 11:53 AM Post #121 |
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According to tssa (union) that is so ...... it's on their web page I linked to. There have been no meaningful negotiations, LU refusing to enter into settlement through consultation - intransigent! Edited by Affa, Aug 7 2015, 04:49 PM.
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 7 2015, 04:23 PM Post #122 |
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Upstanding Member
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How many of those equally difficult professions involve taking moral and legal responsibility for hundreds of total strangers every day? I bet you can't name three. All The Best |
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| RJD | Aug 7 2015, 04:51 PM Post #123 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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Police Bus Drive Taxi Driver Army, Navy etch. NCO Nurses Teachers Require more? |
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| Affa | Aug 7 2015, 05:03 PM Post #124 |
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Senior Member
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It's disturbing how party politics determines how people respond to otherwise non political events/disputes. I am quite prepared to believe and accept that the Unions are capable of being difficult to deal with, can be over demanding. What I can't believe is that employers never underhanded. |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 7 2015, 05:27 PM Post #125 |
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Upstanding Member
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Police: Really? Every single day they take legal and responsibility for the lives of hundreds of people? That's not to suggest they don't earn their pay, they do; but most police officers will not got to work knowing they will hold such responsibility all day, every day. Bus Driver: Yep, I'll agree with that. Taxi Driver: Nope. I doubt most taxi drivers carry one hundred passengers a day, never mind hundreds of passengers. Army, Navy Etc: While I don't think most of them will hold such responsibility every single day of their working life, my position has long been that government does not value our armed forces as much as they deserve. Nurses: I would imagine that most nurses hold more acute and immediate moral and legal responsibility for the patients they do cover, but I doubt any nurse does so for literally hundreds of patients every day. Teachers: Possibly. But aren't you one of those who thinks teachers should be subject to performance related pay reviews. Bit hypocritical of you to use them in this manner if you do. Require More? Yes, you've got only one who meets the criteria I set, I asked for three. Every single tube drives takes legal and moral responsibility for hundreds of passengers every day, on some lines that will be every single journey. Bus Driver is the obvious choice here, but you'd be hard pressed to find another. Airline Pilot, Cruise Ship Captain, Passenger Ferry Captain. About the only roles you'll find with the same level of responsibility for the lives of others in such numbers are all involved in mass passenger transit operations. The current S Stock rolling stock used on some lines have a capacity of 865 (S7) and 1003 (S8). That's a lot of people to take responsibility for on a daily basis. All The Best |
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| Ewill | Aug 7 2015, 05:35 PM Post #126 |
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So the meetings in the interim haven't gone the union's way? management wouldn't give in to the militants Tssa confirms this by stating that there have been ''no meaningful meetings'' Union apologists like you call this no meetings and blame management |
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| Affa | Aug 7 2015, 06:08 PM Post #127 |
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Boris has refused to enter into negotiations ....... intransigence! |
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| johnofgwent | Aug 7 2015, 08:11 PM Post #128 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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I rode it all the time when I had to go up to "head office" But then again, twelve years before that, I was on the team that created the atp and ato for it. I'd sooner ride a system of my creation than one developed by a bunch of people who've never seen the tubes it has to operate in. At least that way I know who to blame if it derails, and they'll be joining me in hell for it (not that I believe in such a place) |
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| johnofgwent | Aug 7 2015, 08:17 PM Post #129 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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air traffic control system designer nuclear power plant designer automated train protection system designer aircraft designer and for that matter, almost any architect or structural engineer in the high rise office business They all went to work for about six, twelve and four years respectively for the first three and **** knows how long on the other two day in, day out, knowing that for the next thirty / fifty / forty years **MILLIONS** of lives would rely on them having done their job right. Oh did I mention I did the first two 1993-1990 at Ferranti Computer Systems Ltd (and designed the safety critical test for the reactor control system too, but thank *** i wasn't a C.Eng so someone else had to sign off my work ... and I did the third at westinghouse brake and signal. Edited by johnofgwent, Aug 7 2015, 08:18 PM.
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| C-too | Aug 7 2015, 09:39 PM Post #130 |
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Honourable Member
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Would normal people offer a deal and after acceptance change the deal they offered ? Hmm I think a large section of the British (clearly not all) left the serf mentality along with the 'yes sir, no sir touch of the forelock sir' behind, a few generations back. |
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| C-too | Aug 7 2015, 09:43 PM Post #131 |
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Honourable Member
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Would you care to post your definition of 'no meaningful negotiations' ? |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 7 2015, 09:53 PM Post #132 |
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Upstanding Member
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Disagree. Once the design is finalised, and approved, and then built the designer takes no moral or legal responsibility for the day to day usage of those systems. And even if you could argue they did, it is nothing like the immediate responsibility that those who work in mass passenger transit work with. If you design system XYZ and it is put into effect, the designer does not take hands-on responsibility for that system on a daily basis. The operators may; but not the designer. Train/Tube drivers and other mass transit drivers/pilots take hands-on, immediate responsibility in a way that I don't think any other occupation does. All The Best |
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| johnofgwent | Aug 7 2015, 11:14 PM Post #133 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Well, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I doubt I'll be getting my claim to have been mis-sold the need for PII through like the PPI ones anytime soon. |
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| Steve K | Aug 7 2015, 11:56 PM Post #134 |
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Once and future cynic
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No that's wrong In the UK (and most countries) the operator take responsibility just for the operation but the designer and especially the design certifier takes responsibility for errors in the design and the manufacturer for errors in the build or build certification. I know this having held most of those roles and having sought and received legal advice. Design includes the operating and maintenance manuals. In the UK in addition to Health and Safety law this can include jail for manslaughter at an individual or corporate level. That applies even if the system was built and operated abroad. The only real defence is if you can show you understood and then took every reasonable step practical to preclude risk. The rows I've had with dodgy designers and their managers. The rows the MoD has had within itself over Chinooks etc. In the USA though there is a massive legal immunity on any federal government contract and subsequent subcontracts and in general their legal liabilities are limited to insurable civil liability. |
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| Rich | Aug 8 2015, 12:30 AM Post #135 |
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But it takes two to tango.
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| Steve K | Aug 8 2015, 01:15 AM Post #136 |
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Once and future cynic
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The basic problem here is LU made an agreement with the unions some years ago and now wants to renege on it. It may have been a dumb agreement to make and it may in the long term be best if it is torn up but if you have an agreement and unilaterally seek to tear it up you cannot claim the moral high ground. |
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| RJD | Aug 8 2015, 06:26 AM Post #137 |
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Prudence and Thrift
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You claim that the Drivers take responsibility for lives, surely that first and foremost includes their own. Me thinks your claim is bogus and illogical. The only question of merit is the one the Usuals refuse to answer and that is based on relative worth. Robot trains will now be higher up the agenda. |
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| Lewis | Aug 8 2015, 06:50 AM Post #138 |
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Talking about relative worth, how much do merchant b(w)ankers and stockbrokers together with tory politicians. The first two rip us off and the third makes peoples lives a misery. Whereas train drivers are responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, but get paid a pittance in comparison to the scroungers I've mentioned! Yet if all the Tory politicians and bankers were swallowed up by the flames of hell, the country would still function as if they never existed (arguably better). Edited by Lewis, Aug 8 2015, 06:54 AM.
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| johnofgwent | Aug 8 2015, 07:44 AM Post #139 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Well, why don't we ask the driver of the train at Ladbroke Grove, or Moorgate ... or pretty much pick almost any serious incident. Oh hang on, you can't. Because when several hundred tons of metalwork doing a reasonable rate of knots piles into a solid object it ends up a good forty foot shorter than when it started and anything remotely organic in it ends up intimately associated with the brickwork / metalwork. "Robot Trains" have been on the agenda since the day I finished the user acceptance test on the ATO for the Jubilee Line extension and my opposite number finished a similar acceptance on the ATP side. And those documents were written on a PC running Windows for Workgroups and Windows 95 was about to launch ... But all this is getting away from the problem, methinks. These days aircraft pilots are not there to "fly the plane". They are there to "fly the plane when shit has happenned and the plane is next to unflyable". I think the same is increasingly the case for rail ... Edited by johnofgwent, Aug 8 2015, 07:46 AM.
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| johnofgwent | Aug 8 2015, 07:52 AM Post #140 |
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It .. It is GREEN !!
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Well, the problem with your ideology is that you seem to overlook the need to swallow up the labour, liberal democrat, SNP and indeed all the other politicians and leave the people to get on with our lives unfettered by these equal parasites. The argument for the deconstruction of statism is hardly a new one. Edited by johnofgwent, Aug 8 2015, 07:53 AM.
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| Oddball | Aug 8 2015, 07:58 AM Post #141 |
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I was thinking more of the railway bennies, free travel and the like. An 'uncle-in-law' of mine was a lowly station porter, but he did get bennies that included free family travel inclusive of an annual European rail travel {holiday in mind]. Edited by Oddball, Aug 8 2015, 07:59 AM.
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| Affa | Aug 8 2015, 08:57 AM Post #142 |
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How ridiculous it is to be critical of the pay of train drivers when the dispute is not essentially about pay though of course that is also negotiable. The issue here is as I have repeatedly raised - intransigence. |
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| Affa | Aug 8 2015, 09:02 AM Post #143 |
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I frequently label the State as "the enemy of the people", but that does not mean I advocate anarchy. We deserve a State that regards itself as a servant of the people ......... |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 8 2015, 09:03 AM Post #144 |
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Upstanding Member
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Yes, I understand that. But they don't take day-to-day hands-on responsibility in the way that a Mass Transit System Driver does, do they? The designer/certifier isn't there every day taking direct responsibility for those that use his/her designs. All The Best |
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| Ewill | Aug 8 2015, 10:10 AM Post #145 |
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Normal people wanted to shop on Sundays , and buy petrol 24/7/365 - normal people wanted to bank after 3 The business models had to accommodate this Those workers needed to have shifts changed to accommodate and did so , they can opt out of Sundays working if wanted, automation took over the shortfall Tube staff will not have to work extra weekends or hours, they are also to get a pay rise and work bonuses and still they strike, more automation is the answer If they don't like it they should resign and go elsewhere |
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| C-too | Aug 8 2015, 10:59 AM Post #146 |
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Honourable Member
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If they have real grievances then no, they should not resign and go elsewhere. With your strong opinions and 'answers' perhaps you can highlight the reasons given for strike action ? |
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| Steve K | Aug 8 2015, 11:17 AM Post #147 |
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Once and future cynic
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We have in effect a monopolistic employer and you seem to want to give them carte blanche to exploit that monopoly? Where else can a LU underground driver get a job making use of their skills and experience? |
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| papasmurf | Aug 8 2015, 11:19 AM Post #148 |
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I doubt many men want to be dragged out to go shopping on a Sunday. |
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| Ewill | Aug 8 2015, 11:58 AM Post #149 |
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Anywhere else with a tube system in the UK (or if tube drivers really are as great as they believe they are they could always try their luck in European tube systems) |
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| Ewill | Aug 8 2015, 12:02 PM Post #150 |
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Where's the ''real'' grievance? They have guaranteed hours, voluntary w/e work. a continued closed shop, extra bonuses and a pay rise It's a trades union manufactured grievance viz the protect ticket offices bollax-no-one uses ticket offices in tube stations, haven't done for years- it's all Oyster/debit card swipes and ticket machines Roll on the new strike ballot legislation |
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| Pro Veritas | Aug 8 2015, 12:24 PM Post #151 |
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Upstanding Member
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And how you will bitch and moan when they use that legislation against you. I've no idea what job you do, and I don't care. What I do know is once they make it harder to strike that makes it easier for them to erode other basic working rights. So if you find yourself forced to work 50/hr weeks for £20 the only person you will have to blame is yourself for supporting this attack on the right to strike. Do you even understand that for the vast majority of the workforce the right to withdraw their labour is the ONLY means of protest they have to combat and employment system skewed almost entirely in favour of the employer? If you did understand that, would you care? Maybe you should go read Martin Niemöller's most famous quote. All The Best Edited by Pro Veritas, Aug 8 2015, 12:29 PM.
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| Jonksy | Aug 8 2015, 01:16 PM Post #152 |
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| Steve K | Aug 8 2015, 01:19 PM Post #153 |
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Once and future cynic
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So they have to sell their house, partner has to change job, kids have to move school, have to lose and make new friends, abandon close relatives they may be responsible for and they're supposed to be no impediment to a free market? LU is in an effective monopoly employer position - end of |
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| Rich | Aug 8 2015, 06:37 PM Post #154 |
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Those from eastern Europe seem to find upping sticks no problem. |
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| C-too | Aug 8 2015, 07:39 PM Post #155 |
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Honourable Member
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Is the ticket office problem the only grievance ? Too much control over working people WILL lead to discontent. Remember the decade of discontent under Thatcher ? Increased crime, vandalism, riots ---- ? |
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| C-too | Aug 8 2015, 07:41 PM Post #156 |
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Honourable Member
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| Ewill | Aug 8 2015, 08:00 PM Post #157 |
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And how you will bitch and moan when they use that legislation against you.>> Nope I understand completely the need for a flexible workforce and I still fail to understand why workers on £50k+ ,free travel for uncle Tom Cobly and all, being given the same guaranteed hours, voluntary w/e working, a pay rise , work bonuses can simply be allowed to strike at whim It's still the public sector unionised mentality which prevails- union sheep don't appear to realise that they are losing money whilst keeping their huge salaried union bosses in work So if you find yourself forced to work 50/hr weeks for £20 >> Tube drivers aren't for the vast majority of the workforce the right to withdraw their labour is the ONLY means of protest they have to combat and employment system >> Vast majority? More like union sheep If people don't like their place of work any longer they are free to find employment elsewhere - nothing stopping them. Normal people change employment whenever they want Edited by Ewill, Aug 8 2015, 08:01 PM.
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| Ewill | Aug 8 2015, 08:06 PM Post #158 |
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>>So they have to sell their house, partner has to change job, kids have to move school, have to lose and make new friends, abandon close relatives they may be responsible for >> East Europeans and multinational company workers have no problem doing so Think of the opportunities available by broadening horizons |
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| Steve K | Aug 8 2015, 08:44 PM Post #159 |
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Once and future cynic
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No, as per the RMT link I posted earlier there are safety and work/life balance issues. Yep |
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| Tigger | Aug 8 2015, 11:25 PM Post #160 |
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Well lets face it if a load of waste of space bankers and traders don't go into work the country is probably a slightly better place for the duration, but if a couple of hundred train drivers stay at home London is in chaos! Just shows the relative values of some folks eh?
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